Introduction
Hi guys, this is a long topic, made purely for your reading pleasure looking at a side of the kaldorei that is sometimes forgotten, and occasionally mis understood.
Whether you agree with it or not, do have a read, and take your time to take it in. It started as detailed response to @Combatbulter , another forum poster I respect and often enjoy reading even if I dont always agree with.
However I felt some interesting caveats about night elved and their highborne came up I would like to share with you as it's own topic. I will do a video this weekend and attempt to add it, for those who dont want to read everything.
While I base most of what I say on the lore, please understand that from context, some of it is opinion, desire and touches on a vision for this group. It's not a comprehensive discourse on all things highborne, just focusing on the relationship and current position of the highborne. So here goes.
The Highborne
The following video is one of the most concise and accurate summary of the highborne for any un familiar or a little puzzled. Even if you are confident you know this group, you will find the video informative. Please watch:
PART I - Challenging Our Perceptions Of The Kaldorei's Attitudes to the Arcane and Highborne - and the Difference.
[B]
Do Kaldorei Despise highborne or Pre-sundering culture?
However, despite all these derivative elven groups, the night elves represent the core and original of what the elf is. And while it is interesting to have variations and sub-groups of cultures, a group that represents the full vision of the original elf in Warcraft is the Kaldorei - they are the original elves in this universe, and that original state was defined in their original lore (in WC3) and combined a high magical affinity in the arcane, nature and the divine. As such, why should it surprise anyone that all the original core aspects of the night elves endure in the kaldorei group today? Should we expect them only to bear the forest elf portion? No! I say, and clearly the developers think so too (thank fully, since I like the other bits too, and feel they'd be too boring if they were just one thing).Challenge 1:Some believe that as the night elves splintered into distinct subraces, with nightborne now closely associating with blood elves having highborne culture at their core (hence why they get along) is reason enough to believe the average night elf and quite a bit of tier leaders despise highborne culture."
Detailed Response
I don't feel kaldorei, or more,specifically, druidic and priestly Darnassian kaldorei despise "highborne" or "pre-sundering " culture, therefore we mustn't draw conclusions or manage expectations on something that isnt the case.
Let me clarify. They despised the arrogant reckless behaviour and the culture that behaviour produced...not their own original arcane/priestly/druidic culture that fluorished before addiction, hubris and arrogance of Azshara's highborne group produced a different kind culture. It is that mindset and behaviour they despised. And it must be noted, not liking the high elven highborne or the shen'dralar is not the same thing always. Also to be noted, banning the arcane was not because they didnt like the arrogant culture, it was to prevent the Legion returning. I really get the sense the night elves hated the arrogance of the highborne, but loved their civilization and their Queen until it was clear she betrayed them.
Also note you can like a group you didnt like before (which happens with the shen'dralar), I would also imagine the kaldorei druids and priests would love the Farondis, cos though arcane they share the same original values - his court has priests and proto druids. Thalyssra in 7.0 and Ly'leth seemed to hearken back to the original noble kaldorei culture practiced by the highborne before addiction.
Point is highborne culture doesnt have to be the same within every highborne group, nor do we have to assume the kaldorei hated every version of their arcane culture, nor should we say that they cant create new types of arcane culture that they like or accept well, nor can we say that their history doesnt have an arcane culture the current kaldorei dont like.. it is a long history with many developments and cha ges.
When I read the war of the Ancients trilogy, malfurion felt the culture at that time needed to return to an earlier state without the arrogance and decadence, he was neither opposed to the arcane no magic, just his peoples over reliance and dependence on it. When we meet the Farondis they appear to be living in a kaldorei arcane culture without the hubris and arrogance of the other highborne at their time.
I cant imagine the other druidic andmpriestly long vigil kaldorei having a problem with them, or hating g that culture or those highborne, seeing they were the first to rebel and try to stop the Legion.
We can't make that generalisation of all types of culture that have hihgobrne involved, nor can we say the arcane or an arcane community that is a accepted by all current Darnassian kaldorei - 1. doesn't exist, 2. cannot exist.Challenge 2: You May think the Highborne are relegated to the Edgoe of society, have rocky Relationships with other Kaldorie, Magic strictly Regulated, Leadership not liking highborne like Shandris appears in Naz'jatar:
You mention rocky highborne relationship and highborne culture, yet I pointed out the kaldorei didn't hate their pre-sundering culture nor the arcane - only the reckless and arrogant culture of decadence, full of hubris that the highborne of the Queen's court became notorious for.
Rocky relationships at the start of wolfheart doens't mean the highborne that rejoin don't improve relationships. Shandris and most kaldorei will always have a problem with highborne of the invasion period (or those of that mindset) because of their attitude and behaviour, and meeting Thalyssra, Shandris appears to be referring to that ilk of highborne. If she discovers that Thalyssra and her group are not like that - she wouldn't hate them for being highborne. And I think it was more anger bubbling up, not hate, and not for all highborne, just for those who keep that particular nasty decadent reckless Azshara's court attitude that ruined their great civilizaiton and murdered so many people (if they hated their civilizaiton or the arcane or their culture so much, they wouldn't be so angry, they'd be thanking them, but punishing the guilty culprits for the lives lost.)
We can't, and shouldn't generalise all the highborne into one pot like we use to before we knew there were many different groups and some like the Farondis (who were cursed0 didn't adopt the arrogant hubris.
Their magic was not strictly regulated, because wolfheart tells us that one o the conditions of their alliance was NO REGULATION, nor would their highborne be required to adopt Kaldorei culture.
Furthermore, we find out in the very wolfheart that their inclusion while having some objections at the start, also had a lot of support, including that of Malfurion and Tyrande, and Malfurion knew that the attitude of those who were opposed and the anger would subside in time ( he said give it a few years0. We haven't seen non-arcane Darnassians have issue with druids/sentinels or vice versa. Only Maiev at the start of the Legion expansion invasion who was isolated as the stirrer up of the hatred and instigator. It was also revealed that there was only a very small (handful of individuals) causing problems, and Maiev was the one pulling their strings.
What am I saying? The main kaldorei don't have a problem with the arcane or highborne who are of the ilk of the Farondis highborne, the way they were before arrogance/ hubris addiction sullied their character. I don't see why they would have any objection, or oppose, or restrict, highborne of noble character and uncorrupt. Nor do I see why the highborne community cannot be loved or partnered with - it really is the invasion period of the pre-sundering era ilk of highborne that a problem lies with.
Just because blood elves and nigihtborne can share that commonality, doesn't mean the kaldorei can't have their own well loved arcane culture, higbhborne led emerge going back to it's original - pre addiction nobility. In other words, nightborne and blood elves getting on well because of their similarities is not a hinderance to highborne/druids/priests also getting on well like they did in the pre-sundering era before the addiction/reckless period that ushered in the egion. And I am very interested in seeing that side of the kaldorei properly - I will never see it with the blood elves and nightborne - (they aren't night elven priests, druids or mages) the sin'dorei have hteir own culture now, that is arcane and light, their partnership with the nightborne even though they are a kaldorei based group won't recreate that pre-sundering pre-addiction era.
There is room amongst the kaldorei to have both the pre-sundering level of greatness merged with the long vigil level to produce the best of both aspects of the kaldorei, and it is or would be independent
In Summary:
You'd be inaccurate, the kaldorei mages are seen all over wow now, and the highborne were expected to be fully accepted by all in a short few years (with the majority in wolfheart willing to welcome them back. Their is no indication either in novels, game representation or npc dialogue that they are at the edge of current kaldorei society today (they were during the Long vigil, banned, but not now), furthermore, after the events of legion you would imagine the opposite is true.
Their magic wasn't restricted, - it was part of their terms and conditions stated in Legion, but preventing mis-use of the arcane like in the reckless period of the pre-sundering era you might imagine is not accepted.
Shandris was angry at the highborne institution that let the demons in, and rightly show, doesn't mean she dislikes all night highborne, or hates the arcane, and Tyrande and Malfurion are the ones that led the charge to see have the arcane returned, not to mention many others including all those who rushed to become students of the arcane again
For starters: "their new one" is actually their old one now, the long vigil is not their new culture, the present age is, and while yes the new culture after the sundering (i.e. the long vigil) was opposite to the old one - this is not the case now, and to say "highborne culture" begs a number of questions, mamely:CHALLENGE 3: You may think highborne culture runs contrary to what the Night elf Race chooses as the core of their new one, which is why magic was banned, and the Night elf Way Set out to be the Opposite of the old one, so off course they don't really fit together
What in highborne culture? why was magic banned in the night elf way?
What is highborne culture - highborne culture is not the sum total of all things arcane, their are many arcane cultures or cultures that the arcane is a part off.
Furthermore there isn't just one type of highborne culture. Night elven arcane culture existed before the highborne formed, was around with them, and that had several phases too, the last phase is the one they hate - the one where they get all arrogant, addictd and corrupted and summon the legion.
They hate the group of highborne that did that, and the attitudes they adopted. Not the arcane. Why did they stop using the arcane ? It wasn't because they hated Highborne Culture. Both WotA trilogy and WC3 tell us that.
I repeat:
You can like a group you didnt like before (which happens with the shen'dralar), I would also imagine the kaldorei druids and priests would live the Farondis, cos though arcane they share the same original values. Thalyssra in 7.0 and Ly'leth seemed to hearken back to the original noble kaldorei culture practiced by the highborne before addiction. To which you might respond:
And I would say Which is why I said "I imagine" - but this is based on the character of the night elves. I have seen the night elves repeatedly hate on the arrogance and recklessness of the highborne, not on arcane usage or city living, not on Moonguard, or responsible highborne too. It is not hard to imagine Kaldorei druids and priests would love the faronndis, as they do share the same original pre-addiction values. And you see Farondis court druid and priest (go to the crumbling palace in Azsuna)"We haven't seen such a thing expressed by any night elf at any point."
1st issue amis with this is alienating the night elf from the highborne, highborne today are night elven, as all were before the sundering. While some highborne exist amongst the nightborne (the night elf sub-race) remember Thalassians are highborne descendants. But that's not all.Challenge 4: Night elves see the city dweller as an insult, while highborne love the city life
If you feel this way, then I believe you are generalising here, taking comments or views of one person in lore from one of the groups, and thinking this is how everyone feels. The night elves built a city after coming out of isolation remember? Darnassus. Why bother if night elves racially don't like or want a city? Also you should be aware that the night elven orders are very different having very different habitats. A forest dwelling druid, likes the outdoors, the earth in his barrow dens, the trees, however a Priestess loves the Temples, the holy places and temples of her goddess. The civilian likes a city, as does the highborne, do we not see Estulan and the shen'drlar yearning to restore the glory of their city?
Is a hunter that loves the wilds and nature going to like a city? no, does that mean all night elves do not? No.
Don't generalise night elves into one thing - they are not just forest elves - that is only a part of them, I don't imagine a forest living druid would particualarly like a city anymore than a human hunter, farmer or jungle dweller would like a city, but a city dweller does. you have many types of people, same goes for night elves. They are introduced with 4 categories: Arcane lovers, nature lovers, Elune lovers, Fel lovers. That's four - and each type in each group wouldn't care for the preferred zone of the other.
Again you are generalising all night elves, and remember highborne are also night elves, and they are not the only ones who dwell in city or love cities. the night elf history explains why there are no cities built during the long vigil, but as soon as it ends, the night elves build a city straight away.. were all night elves up for that? I would imagine not, not all night elves moved toChallenge 5: Highborne Culture is tied to cities and easy lifestyles and research, night elf lifestyle is one of simplicity and balance with nature.
He and the druids did ban on pain of death, but it wasn't done because the arcane was highborne culture. The arcane is not a culture, and there isn't only one type of arcane culture, even amongst the night elves (as I mentioned earlier). The ban on arcane magic on penalty of death was done because using it is what draws the legion, not because he hates highborne or hates the arcane.Challenge 6 Malfurion Outlawed the Arcane under pain of death in the end, because the arcane is highborne culture, night elves hated the arcane and highborne culture
The highborne hate is a separate issue directly related to their arrogance, attitude and the highborne group that willingly called the demons on to destroy the world.
It wasn't a ban on highborne culture, nor was it ban on arcane culture, they needed no ban to despise the culture of arrogance, addiction and recklessness that resulted in such compromise of character. Nor was it a hate of the arcane either - as I mention often these guys are made from the stuff, connected to the stuff, and the long vigil group create moonwlels all of the place, guard the stuff as the centre of their Vigil mission objective. The objective is to prevent the legion from returning, and stop every use of the arcane from the well because this is what will cause the world destroying force to return, and their strength and might is spent - they have no empire anymore - and cannot withstand a second invasion (he says as much in WotA trilogy). the ban prevents them from rebuilding their empire, but it's a sacrifice they are wiling to make because they can live without an empire, without all their advances - this is what the night elves do.
A benevolent goody goody two shoes like Malfurion and those gatehree, don't ban on pain of death unless it is very serious, they don't do that because addiction is possible, or they hate the hihgborne - they are night elves, the arcane is in their blood, - the night elves believed using their magic would call the legion back = destroy the world - so it has to be banned, and a storng penalty like that makes sense. They didn't even exercise the penalty
Challenge 7 - They had a problem with other rebel highborne too, why would the nightborne be different? Heck the ones who literally swallowed their pride and tried to coexist for ca 3.000 years in their society got exiled in the end, because they wanted arcane magic back in their society.
Which highborne did they have a problem with? The good farondis kind who rebelled against the queen straightaway and tried to destroy the well? Hell no, I see priests and druids amongst them quite friendly with those highborne.
No, they had a problem with the Zin'Azshari highborne of the palace that Tyrande rescued. Darth'remar and his lot, specifically because they were the very ones guilty of portaling in the demons, and the centre of the arrogance and hubris of the court. However not ALL night elves had a problem with them after they rebelled and helped the win the war. When the internal dialogues between the night elves occur, blame is put on those highborne.
Did the non-arcane users blame the moonguard? who were the foremost battle mages of the realm? No, did they blame the arcane? did they blame other arcane users including themselves? No.. they blamed the highborne who directly tunnelled this in. And even after that, did they not live in peace together? 3000 years into their society, they got exiled because they broke the ban, endangering the world - not because night elves hate the arcane, nor because they were highborne. Breaking the ban and causing a storm that cost lives was again a reminder of the recklessness that caused this problem in the first place. using the arcane is believed to draw the legion, and they go and do exactly that. The Sunstriders failed to convince their kin that the arcane could be used again and the night elven society could handle its use positively with no drawbacks.. as such they got exiled. Not for being highborne, and you know that.
PART II The Highborne, Part of the Kaldorei of Today
- The relationship between non-highborne and highborne has already changed amongst the night elves
- Pinpointed the hate against highborne was in attitude, recklessness and specifically for calling the legion to Azshara,
- Not all highborne groups nor individuals are guilty, and not all night elves blame all highborne night elves either, new lore expands our understanding continually and cannot be ignored, we must incorporate it and adjust our views in light of it.
- Druids and priests don't like arcane addiction because it is not a good thing to have, no addiction is, and are shown to help their kin who are afflicted, not hate them - as witnessed by the vale walkers for example (not the only ones), further to that
- Acceptance is seen in night elves for those who are uncorrupt highborne (the druids in Feralas on Estulan and the highborne)
So to conclude that all non highborne night elves hate all highborne including the ones they are allied to is false (it may have seemed the case in earlier lore but new lore has revealed much more and shown this was an thing born around the invasion era and the su dering period. Furthermore, not every nightborne is highborne either. And nightborne have not been shown to hate night elves, nor the other way around, yet some anger still exists towards some highborne groups.
It is quite feasible to imagine night elves having arcane cultures and highborne cultures that they like and they accept.
[They are the founding race of mage arcane craft in Azeroth, arcane is in their DNA, essence, and they've had 15,000 years exposed and connected to its energy through the Well of Eternity and Moonwells - we should not be surprised they'd have their own groups and rather should be expected and watch with anticipation to see how they do it differently in it's original pure form, especially since the arcane groups amongst them who perverted those pure responsible ways (with addiction and hubris)- have all now become different races or sub races (naga, satyr, high elves, nightborne). They should have their own strong core group thst reflects the fullness of night elven arcana its excellent pure form before the corruption stage.
This is what I believe the Farondis represent, is what the Moonguard also represent and the shen'dralar who have overcome their addiction are now. And we should look forward to seeing what this version looks like, because it is neither what the high elves, nightborne or humans are.
So to emphasize
- Not all highborne may be liked, but let's not assume they are all hated.
- Nor assume that all arcane kaldorei are hated, this includes Moonguard, Faromdis highborne, new Darnassian highborne by the rest.
- Those who werent guilty, no arrogant shouldnt be either, doing so is not in line with the general night elven character of the Darnassians.
- Also remember night elves are forgiving and benevolent, they didnt wipe out the high elves who broke the ban, nor even the satyrs who murdered them in the invasion war instead choosing to trap them.
Examples
- They are shown to be merciful both to Darth Remars group, who were part of the palace highborne that made the portals. (This doesntmean others werent agree with them for their role or blamed them, but they did accept and life continued, without the arcane (and that not because they hated the arcane, but because they felt it was a life or death necessity as no use was the only way to prevent the Legion returning)
- And in wolfheart and cata, were shown to forgive the shen'dralar and partner with them.
- Not all night elves were totally accepting, but hate is greatly exaggerated...even Malfurion was angry with the shen'dralar at first for them dragging their feet in the war of the Ancients, but he supported them too, so did Tyrande for rejoining, and they weren't the highborne group portalling in the Legion. Anger is not hate, it can lead to hate, like in Maievs case, but for most good people, it doesnt, especially when the guilty offenders are repentant and make amends or want to live right. And living right in their case is not dropping the arcane. Now the ban is lifted, it's not about not using the arcane, living right is living responsibly, without that nasty arrogant recklessness that was born of addiction and against the core of the kaldorei.
Key Point 2
To this effect, if you think about if, it makes sense, that the night elf groups who carry on in the attitudes of arrogance and hubris developed from the addiction phase, no longer remain as kaldorei - nightborne highborne in Suramar, and the blood elves after TBC are more in that ilk and have changed from the pure kaldorei. However those arcane users that retained that kaldorei benevolence nature (like Farondis highborne, Darnassian highborne new and old, Moonguard) or returned to it (like Shen'dralar highborne) , eschewing responsibility, excellence without recklessness and free of addiction, they would be in alignment with the Darnassians, and it is this that is the heart of what kaldorei character is about, not whether you do arcane and cities or you do nature and forests or you do Elune and Temples or even Fel and demon eradication. (Illidari prove you can be night elven and work with them even if you are not of that goody goody nature - and if they can, I'm sure void elves and nightborne can be aligned with them, just as humans and other less than perfect races they are in an alliance with proves.
Maiev and her arcane hatred is a one off unique to her as was is made quite clear, no one else is recorded to all out hate the arcane amongst the night elved, her highborne hate is a minority amo get them, and the hatred amongst the night elves doesnt indiscriminately apply to every highborne nor every arcane using night elf.
[LIST][*]The arcane was banned, not hated during the long vigil (except by Maiev) and that ban is gone, and both highborne and arcane night elf users are a thing amongst the kaldorei again.[*]And I'm glad. It is also different from the Thalassian highborne descendants and the nightborne Suramar group as it should be, they dont all have to be the same, or one big happy family with identical values and views on everything.
Are 99% of the Highborne At Odds of Opposed By The Night Elves
Is This Statement True?
Bottom line is night elves and 99% of highborne do not get along, what a shocker.
All relevant Highborne groups, meaning not utterly decimated and pretty much extinct
Night elves and nightborne don't like each other
Night elves and blood elves don't like each other
Night elves and Naga hate each other
Farondis court is undead, night elves despise undead in general.
- Thalassians are highborne descendants not highborne.
- Nightborne are highborne led, but not all of them are highborne.
- The largest community of full highborne is amogst the Darnassians, led by the shen'dralar and includes shen'dralar, returned Darnassians highborne from the pre sundering era, and newly raised darnassians who are hand picked to study the arcane because of their talent.
Key Point 3
Night elves are not divided against each other now, you know that. And it's not highborne and non highborne like in the invasion period of the pre sundering - funny how you would ditch many of the characteristics and attributes of the pre sundering era, but would maintain this one, when the lore clearly shows differently.
.
- Night elf are separated into their orders: druids, elaine (priests, sentinels etc) highborne and Illidari.
- Elves are divided into night elves and thalassian elves.
- Currently night elves tho present on the horde and alliance dont seem to hate each other. Thalassians on either faction have issues with each other but all want their people to be 1 again, but none of them so far like night elves except the nightborne and blood elves
The divide today, in the current age is not night elf and highborne, but night elf and thalassian, alliance elf and horde elf; night left and day elf highborne exist on both the alliance andhorde amongst thenight elvenbunch (kaldorei and shal'dorei), thalssian highborne descendants also exist on both sides via the high/void elves on alliance and blood elves on horde.
And I like that, I like that the highborne night elves were able to return to that pre addiction nobility that the lore spoke about them before the naughtiness and reckless ness of the invasion era. I really like that, because it was out of that group the most captivating and magical parts of the pre sundering civilization happened and I like it when good things are saved.
I dont mind that a group of them became something else in the high elves, that's good world building, nor do I mind that a snapshot of the night elves of the invasion period of the pre-sundering era exists as it's own group. That is also good world building, and it doesnt invalidate nor make irrelevant the kaldorei's current group because they are a different ilk as well as a different faction.
PART III - VIsion of the Future
for this bit, I would say, the night elven highborne and arcane users have a real niche and important one to explore and expand. In them we can explore the relationship between the priesthood and the night elven society in the pre-sundering era pre-addiction periods ofc, and we can also see a defined version of night elven arcane magic. Most of it is star/moon magic, this is unique to night elves and nightborne, silver beam with edges in a blue/purple mixture is the colour, - you see some arcane spells have this, ones cast by mages and Tyrande, and makes sense given the eye colour of the ngiht elves that was said to be because of the arcane power from their connection to the well.
Having both a distinctive characteristic, and mindset/culture that is totally kaldorei, as well as their own unique character - there is a place for them that the nightborne do not fill, nor the high elves or blood elves. ANd we would be foolish to think Draenei, humans, forsaken, even orcs, trolls and goblins, not just blood/high/void elves can all have forms of arcane magic, but the original group who invented it and perfected it to its highest level and it's longest period without abuse cannot or shouldn't for some prejudiced reason some players think have an arcane institution and a powerful and dominant one at that.
Ofc they should.. can you imagine night elves only portrayed as forest elves - it would be boring, when their earlier lore had so much more diversity and richness to them, and it would also be a shame cos I like their vision of the arcane, and while I like other elven groups, I feel they offer something unique and valuable even though it has similarities with the nightborne's. But saying we shouldn't have it is like saying high elves and void elves shouldn't have the arcane part of them because the horde's blood elves do. So only the horde's elves should have it and not the alliance ones? Well, I don't agree, and reminds me yet again how and why I feel the over strong faction emphasis is having a bad effect on players.