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  1. #1

    A Discourse on Night Elf Arcana and Their Highborne Group

    Introduction

    Hi guys, this is a long topic, made purely for your reading pleasure looking at a side of the kaldorei that is sometimes forgotten, and occasionally mis understood.

    Whether you agree with it or not, do have a read, and take your time to take it in. It started as detailed response to @Combatbulter , another forum poster I respect and often enjoy reading even if I dont always agree with.

    However I felt some interesting caveats about night elved and their highborne came up I would like to share with you as it's own topic. I will do a video this weekend and attempt to add it, for those who dont want to read everything.

    While I base most of what I say on the lore, please understand that from context, some of it is opinion, desire and touches on a vision for this group. It's not a comprehensive discourse on all things highborne, just focusing on the relationship and current position of the highborne. So here goes.

    The Highborne

    The following video is one of the most concise and accurate summary of the highborne for any un familiar or a little puzzled. Even if you are confident you know this group, you will find the video informative. Please watch:




    PART I - Challenging Our Perceptions Of The Kaldorei's Attitudes to the Arcane and Highborne - and the Difference.
    [B]


    Do Kaldorei Despise highborne or Pre-sundering culture?

    Challenge 1:Some believe that as the night elves splintered into distinct subraces, with nightborne now closely associating with blood elves having highborne culture at their core (hence why they get along) is reason enough to believe the average night elf and quite a bit of tier leaders despise highborne culture."
    However, despite all these derivative elven groups, the night elves represent the core and original of what the elf is. And while it is interesting to have variations and sub-groups of cultures, a group that represents the full vision of the original elf in Warcraft is the Kaldorei - they are the original elves in this universe, and that original state was defined in their original lore (in WC3) and combined a high magical affinity in the arcane, nature and the divine. As such, why should it surprise anyone that all the original core aspects of the night elves endure in the kaldorei group today? Should we expect them only to bear the forest elf portion? No! I say, and clearly the developers think so too (thank fully, since I like the other bits too, and feel they'd be too boring if they were just one thing).

    Detailed Response
    I don't feel kaldorei, or more,specifically, druidic and priestly Darnassian kaldorei despise "highborne" or "pre-sundering " culture, therefore we mustn't draw conclusions or manage expectations on something that isnt the case.

    Let me clarify. They despised the arrogant reckless behaviour and the culture that behaviour produced...not their own original arcane/priestly/druidic culture that fluorished before addiction, hubris and arrogance of Azshara's highborne group produced a different kind culture. It is that mindset and behaviour they despised. And it must be noted, not liking the high elven highborne or the shen'dralar is not the same thing always. Also to be noted, banning the arcane was not because they didnt like the arrogant culture, it was to prevent the Legion returning. I really get the sense the night elves hated the arrogance of the highborne, but loved their civilization and their Queen until it was clear she betrayed them.

    Also note you can like a group you didnt like before (which happens with the shen'dralar), I would also imagine the kaldorei druids and priests would love the Farondis, cos though arcane they share the same original values - his court has priests and proto druids. Thalyssra in 7.0 and Ly'leth seemed to hearken back to the original noble kaldorei culture practiced by the highborne before addiction.

    Point is highborne culture doesnt have to be the same within every highborne group, nor do we have to assume the kaldorei hated every version of their arcane culture, nor should we say that they cant create new types of arcane culture that they like or accept well, nor can we say that their history doesnt have an arcane culture the current kaldorei dont like.. it is a long history with many developments and cha ges.

    When I read the war of the Ancients trilogy, malfurion felt the culture at that time needed to return to an earlier state without the arrogance and decadence, he was neither opposed to the arcane no magic, just his peoples over reliance and dependence on it. When we meet the Farondis they appear to be living in a kaldorei arcane culture without the hubris and arrogance of the other highborne at their time.

    I cant imagine the other druidic andmpriestly long vigil kaldorei having a problem with them, or hating g that culture or those highborne, seeing they were the first to rebel and try to stop the Legion.

    Challenge 2: You May think the Highborne are relegated to the Edgoe of society, have rocky Relationships with other Kaldorie, Magic strictly Regulated, Leadership not liking highborne like Shandris appears in Naz'jatar:
    We can't make that generalisation of all types of culture that have hihgobrne involved, nor can we say the arcane or an arcane community that is a accepted by all current Darnassian kaldorei - 1. doesn't exist, 2. cannot exist.

    You mention rocky highborne relationship and highborne culture, yet I pointed out the kaldorei didn't hate their pre-sundering culture nor the arcane - only the reckless and arrogant culture of decadence, full of hubris that the highborne of the Queen's court became notorious for.

    Rocky relationships at the start of wolfheart doens't mean the highborne that rejoin don't improve relationships. Shandris and most kaldorei will always have a problem with highborne of the invasion period (or those of that mindset) because of their attitude and behaviour, and meeting Thalyssra, Shandris appears to be referring to that ilk of highborne. If she discovers that Thalyssra and her group are not like that - she wouldn't hate them for being highborne. And I think it was more anger bubbling up, not hate, and not for all highborne, just for those who keep that particular nasty decadent reckless Azshara's court attitude that ruined their great civilizaiton and murdered so many people (if they hated their civilizaiton or the arcane or their culture so much, they wouldn't be so angry, they'd be thanking them, but punishing the guilty culprits for the lives lost.)

    We can't, and shouldn't generalise all the highborne into one pot like we use to before we knew there were many different groups and some like the Farondis (who were cursed0 didn't adopt the arrogant hubris.

    Their magic was not strictly regulated, because wolfheart tells us that one o the conditions of their alliance was NO REGULATION, nor would their highborne be required to adopt Kaldorei culture.
    Furthermore, we find out in the very wolfheart that their inclusion while having some objections at the start, also had a lot of support, including that of Malfurion and Tyrande, and Malfurion knew that the attitude of those who were opposed and the anger would subside in time ( he said give it a few years0. We haven't seen non-arcane Darnassians have issue with druids/sentinels or vice versa. Only Maiev at the start of the Legion expansion invasion who was isolated as the stirrer up of the hatred and instigator. It was also revealed that there was only a very small (handful of individuals) causing problems, and Maiev was the one pulling their strings.

    What am I saying? The main kaldorei don't have a problem with the arcane or highborne who are of the ilk of the Farondis highborne, the way they were before arrogance/ hubris addiction sullied their character. I don't see why they would have any objection, or oppose, or restrict, highborne of noble character and uncorrupt. Nor do I see why the highborne community cannot be loved or partnered with - it really is the invasion period of the pre-sundering era ilk of highborne that a problem lies with.


    Just because blood elves and nigihtborne can share that commonality, doesn't mean the kaldorei can't have their own well loved arcane culture, higbhborne led emerge going back to it's original - pre addiction nobility. In other words, nightborne and blood elves getting on well because of their similarities is not a hinderance to highborne/druids/priests also getting on well like they did in the pre-sundering era before the addiction/reckless period that ushered in the egion. And I am very interested in seeing that side of the kaldorei properly - I will never see it with the blood elves and nightborne - (they aren't night elven priests, druids or mages) the sin'dorei have hteir own culture now, that is arcane and light, their partnership with the nightborne even though they are a kaldorei based group won't recreate that pre-sundering pre-addiction era.

    There is room amongst the kaldorei to have both the pre-sundering level of greatness merged with the long vigil level to produce the best of both aspects of the kaldorei, and it is or would be independent


    In Summary:
    You'd be inaccurate, the kaldorei mages are seen all over wow now, and the highborne were expected to be fully accepted by all in a short few years (with the majority in wolfheart willing to welcome them back. Their is no indication either in novels, game representation or npc dialogue that they are at the edge of current kaldorei society today (they were during the Long vigil, banned, but not now), furthermore, after the events of legion you would imagine the opposite is true.
    Their magic wasn't restricted, - it was part of their terms and conditions stated in Legion, but preventing mis-use of the arcane like in the reckless period of the pre-sundering era you might imagine is not accepted.
    Shandris was angry at the highborne institution that let the demons in, and rightly show, doesn't mean she dislikes all night highborne, or hates the arcane, and Tyrande and Malfurion are the ones that led the charge to see have the arcane returned, not to mention many others including all those who rushed to become students of the arcane again

    CHALLENGE 3: You may think highborne culture runs contrary to what the Night elf Race chooses as the core of their new one, which is why magic was banned, and the Night elf Way Set out to be the Opposite of the old one, so off course they don't really fit together
    For starters: "their new one" is actually their old one now, the long vigil is not their new culture, the present age is, and while yes the new culture after the sundering (i.e. the long vigil) was opposite to the old one - this is not the case now, and to say "highborne culture" begs a number of questions, mamely:

    What in highborne culture? why was magic banned in the night elf way?

    What is highborne culture - highborne culture is not the sum total of all things arcane, their are many arcane cultures or cultures that the arcane is a part off.
    Furthermore there isn't just one type of highborne culture. Night elven arcane culture existed before the highborne formed, was around with them, and that had several phases too, the last phase is the one they hate - the one where they get all arrogant, addictd and corrupted and summon the legion.

    They hate the group of highborne that did that, and the attitudes they adopted. Not the arcane. Why did they stop using the arcane ? It wasn't because they hated Highborne Culture. Both WotA trilogy and WC3 tell us that.


    I repeat:
    You can like a group you didnt like before (which happens with the shen'dralar), I would also imagine the kaldorei druids and priests would live the Farondis, cos though arcane they share the same original values. Thalyssra in 7.0 and Ly'leth seemed to hearken back to the original noble kaldorei culture practiced by the highborne before addiction. To which you might respond:

    "We haven't seen such a thing expressed by any night elf at any point."
    And I would say Which is why I said "I imagine" - but this is based on the character of the night elves. I have seen the night elves repeatedly hate on the arrogance and recklessness of the highborne, not on arcane usage or city living, not on Moonguard, or responsible highborne too. It is not hard to imagine Kaldorei druids and priests would love the faronndis, as they do share the same original pre-addiction values. And you see Farondis court druid and priest (go to the crumbling palace in Azsuna)


    Challenge 4: Night elves see the city dweller as an insult, while highborne love the city life
    1st issue amis with this is alienating the night elf from the highborne, highborne today are night elven, as all were before the sundering. While some highborne exist amongst the nightborne (the night elf sub-race) remember Thalassians are highborne descendants. But that's not all.

    If you feel this way, then I believe you are generalising here, taking comments or views of one person in lore from one of the groups, and thinking this is how everyone feels. The night elves built a city after coming out of isolation remember? Darnassus. Why bother if night elves racially don't like or want a city? Also you should be aware that the night elven orders are very different having very different habitats. A forest dwelling druid, likes the outdoors, the earth in his barrow dens, the trees, however a Priestess loves the Temples, the holy places and temples of her goddess. The civilian likes a city, as does the highborne, do we not see Estulan and the shen'drlar yearning to restore the glory of their city?


    Is a hunter that loves the wilds and nature going to like a city? no, does that mean all night elves do not? No.

    Don't generalise night elves into one thing - they are not just forest elves - that is only a part of them, I don't imagine a forest living druid would particualarly like a city anymore than a human hunter, farmer or jungle dweller would like a city, but a city dweller does. you have many types of people, same goes for night elves. They are introduced with 4 categories: Arcane lovers, nature lovers, Elune lovers, Fel lovers. That's four - and each type in each group wouldn't care for the preferred zone of the other.

    Challenge 5: Highborne Culture is tied to cities and easy lifestyles and research, night elf lifestyle is one of simplicity and balance with nature.
    Again you are generalising all night elves, and remember highborne are also night elves, and they are not the only ones who dwell in city or love cities. the night elf history explains why there are no cities built during the long vigil, but as soon as it ends, the night elves build a city straight away.. were all night elves up for that? I would imagine not, not all night elves moved to

    Challenge 6 Malfurion Outlawed the Arcane under pain of death in the end, because the arcane is highborne culture, night elves hated the arcane and highborne culture
    He and the druids did ban on pain of death, but it wasn't done because the arcane was highborne culture. The arcane is not a culture, and there isn't only one type of arcane culture, even amongst the night elves (as I mentioned earlier). The ban on arcane magic on penalty of death was done because using it is what draws the legion, not because he hates highborne or hates the arcane.

    The highborne hate is a separate issue directly related to their arrogance, attitude and the highborne group that willingly called the demons on to destroy the world.

    It wasn't a ban on highborne culture, nor was it ban on arcane culture, they needed no ban to despise the culture of arrogance, addiction and recklessness that resulted in such compromise of character. Nor was it a hate of the arcane either - as I mention often these guys are made from the stuff, connected to the stuff, and the long vigil group create moonwlels all of the place, guard the stuff as the centre of their Vigil mission objective. The objective is to prevent the legion from returning, and stop every use of the arcane from the well because this is what will cause the world destroying force to return, and their strength and might is spent - they have no empire anymore - and cannot withstand a second invasion (he says as much in WotA trilogy). the ban prevents them from rebuilding their empire, but it's a sacrifice they are wiling to make because they can live without an empire, without all their advances - this is what the night elves do.



    A benevolent goody goody two shoes like Malfurion and those gatehree, don't ban on pain of death unless it is very serious, they don't do that because addiction is possible, or they hate the hihgborne - they are night elves, the arcane is in their blood, - the night elves believed using their magic would call the legion back = destroy the world - so it has to be banned, and a storng penalty like that makes sense. They didn't even exercise the penalty

    Challenge 7 - They had a problem with other rebel highborne too, why would the nightborne be different? Heck the ones who literally swallowed their pride and tried to coexist for ca 3.000 years in their society got exiled in the end, because they wanted arcane magic back in their society.

    Which highborne did they have a problem with? The good farondis kind who rebelled against the queen straightaway and tried to destroy the well? Hell no, I see priests and druids amongst them quite friendly with those highborne.


    No, they had a problem with the Zin'Azshari highborne of the palace that Tyrande rescued. Darth'remar and his lot, specifically because they were the very ones guilty of portaling in the demons, and the centre of the arrogance and hubris of the court. However not ALL night elves had a problem with them after they rebelled and helped the win the war. When the internal dialogues between the night elves occur, blame is put on those highborne.


    Did the non-arcane users blame the moonguard? who were the foremost battle mages of the realm? No, did they blame the arcane? did they blame other arcane users including themselves? No.. they blamed the highborne who directly tunnelled this in. And even after that, did they not live in peace together? 3000 years into their society, they got exiled because they broke the ban, endangering the world - not because night elves hate the arcane, nor because they were highborne. Breaking the ban and causing a storm that cost lives was again a reminder of the recklessness that caused this problem in the first place. using the arcane is believed to draw the legion, and they go and do exactly that. The Sunstriders failed to convince their kin that the arcane could be used again and the night elven society could handle its use positively with no drawbacks.. as such they got exiled. Not for being highborne, and you know that.


    PART II The Highborne, Part of the Kaldorei of Today
    1. The relationship between non-highborne and highborne has already changed amongst the night elves
    2. Pinpointed the hate against highborne was in attitude, recklessness and specifically for calling the legion to Azshara,
    3. Not all highborne groups nor individuals are guilty, and not all night elves blame all highborne night elves either, new lore expands our understanding continually and cannot be ignored, we must incorporate it and adjust our views in light of it.
    4. Druids and priests don't like arcane addiction because it is not a good thing to have, no addiction is, and are shown to help their kin who are afflicted, not hate them - as witnessed by the vale walkers for example (not the only ones), further to that
    5. Acceptance is seen in night elves for those who are uncorrupt highborne (the druids in Feralas on Estulan and the highborne)


    So to conclude that all non highborne night elves hate all highborne including the ones they are allied to is false (it may have seemed the case in earlier lore but new lore has revealed much more and shown this was an thing born around the invasion era and the su dering period. Furthermore, not every nightborne is highborne either. And nightborne have not been shown to hate night elves, nor the other way around, yet some anger still exists towards some highborne groups.

    It is quite feasible to imagine night elves having arcane cultures and highborne cultures that they like and they accept.
    [They are the founding race of mage arcane craft in Azeroth, arcane is in their DNA, essence, and they've had 15,000 years exposed and connected to its energy through the Well of Eternity and Moonwells - we should not be surprised they'd have their own groups and rather should be expected and watch with anticipation to see how they do it differently in it's original pure form, especially since the arcane groups amongst them who perverted those pure responsible ways (with addiction and hubris)- have all now become different races or sub races (naga, satyr, high elves, nightborne). They should have their own strong core group thst reflects the fullness of night elven arcana its excellent pure form before the corruption stage.

    This is what I believe the Farondis represent, is what the Moonguard also represent and the shen'dralar who have overcome their addiction are now. And we should look forward to seeing what this version looks like, because it is neither what the high elves, nightborne or humans are.

    So to emphasize

    • Not all highborne may be liked, but let's not assume they are all hated.
    • Nor assume that all arcane kaldorei are hated, this includes Moonguard, Faromdis highborne, new Darnassian highborne by the rest.
    • Those who werent guilty, no arrogant shouldnt be either, doing so is not in line with the general night elven character of the Darnassians.
    • Also remember night elves are forgiving and benevolent, they didnt wipe out the high elves who broke the ban, nor even the satyrs who murdered them in the invasion war instead choosing to trap them.

    Examples
    1. They are shown to be merciful both to Darth Remars group, who were part of the palace highborne that made the portals. (This doesntmean others werent agree with them for their role or blamed them, but they did accept and life continued, without the arcane (and that not because they hated the arcane, but because they felt it was a life or death necessity as no use was the only way to prevent the Legion returning)
    2. And in wolfheart and cata, were shown to forgive the shen'dralar and partner with them.
    3. Not all night elves were totally accepting, but hate is greatly exaggerated...even Malfurion was angry with the shen'dralar at first for them dragging their feet in the war of the Ancients, but he supported them too, so did Tyrande for rejoining, and they weren't the highborne group portalling in the Legion. Anger is not hate, it can lead to hate, like in Maievs case, but for most good people, it doesnt, especially when the guilty offenders are repentant and make amends or want to live right. And living right in their case is not dropping the arcane. Now the ban is lifted, it's not about not using the arcane, living right is living responsibly, without that nasty arrogant recklessness that was born of addiction and against the core of the kaldorei.

    Key Point 2
    To this effect, if you think about if, it makes sense, that the night elf groups who carry on in the attitudes of arrogance and hubris developed from the addiction phase, no longer remain as kaldorei - nightborne highborne in Suramar, and the blood elves after TBC are more in that ilk and have changed from the pure kaldorei. However those arcane users that retained that kaldorei benevolence nature (like Farondis highborne, Darnassian highborne new and old, Moonguard) or returned to it (like Shen'dralar highborne) , eschewing responsibility, excellence without recklessness and free of addiction, they would be in alignment with the Darnassians, and it is this that is the heart of what kaldorei character is about, not whether you do arcane and cities or you do nature and forests or you do Elune and Temples or even Fel and demon eradication. (Illidari prove you can be night elven and work with them even if you are not of that goody goody nature - and if they can, I'm sure void elves and nightborne can be aligned with them, just as humans and other less than perfect races they are in an alliance with proves.

    Maiev and her arcane hatred is a one off unique to her as was is made quite clear, no one else is recorded to all out hate the arcane amongst the night elved, her highborne hate is a minority amo get them, and the hatred amongst the night elves doesnt indiscriminately apply to every highborne nor every arcane using night elf.

    [LIST][*]The arcane was banned, not hated during the long vigil (except by Maiev) and that ban is gone, and both highborne and arcane night elf users are a thing amongst the kaldorei again.[*]And I'm glad. It is also different from the Thalassian highborne descendants and the nightborne Suramar group as it should be, they dont all have to be the same, or one big happy family with identical values and views on everything.


    Are 99% of the Highborne At Odds of Opposed By The Night Elves

    Is This Statement True?
    Bottom line is night elves and 99% of highborne do not get along, what a shocker.


    All relevant Highborne groups, meaning not utterly decimated and pretty much extinct

    Night elves and nightborne don't like each other
    Night elves and blood elves don't like each other
    Night elves and Naga hate each other
    Farondis court is undead, night elves despise undead in general.

    • Thalassians are highborne descendants not highborne.
    • Nightborne are highborne led, but not all of them are highborne.
    • The largest community of full highborne is amogst the Darnassians, led by the shen'dralar and includes shen'dralar, returned Darnassians highborne from the pre sundering era, and newly raised darnassians who are hand picked to study the arcane because of their talent.

    Key Point 3
    Night elves are not divided against each other now, you know that. And it's not highborne and non highborne like in the invasion period of the pre sundering - funny how you would ditch many of the characteristics and attributes of the pre sundering era, but would maintain this one, when the lore clearly shows differently.

    • Night elf are separated into their orders: druids, elaine (priests, sentinels etc) highborne and Illidari.
    • Elves are divided into night elves and thalassian elves.
    • Currently night elves tho present on the horde and alliance dont seem to hate each other. Thalassians on either faction have issues with each other but all want their people to be 1 again, but none of them so far like night elves except the nightborne and blood elves
    .

    The divide today, in the current age is not night elf and highborne, but night elf and thalassian, alliance elf and horde elf; night left and day elf highborne exist on both the alliance andhorde amongst thenight elvenbunch (kaldorei and shal'dorei), thalssian highborne descendants also exist on both sides via the high/void elves on alliance and blood elves on horde.

    And I like that, I like that the highborne night elves were able to return to that pre addiction nobility that the lore spoke about them before the naughtiness and reckless ness of the invasion era. I really like that, because it was out of that group the most captivating and magical parts of the pre sundering civilization happened and I like it when good things are saved.

    I dont mind that a group of them became something else in the high elves, that's good world building, nor do I mind that a snapshot of the night elves of the invasion period of the pre-sundering era exists as it's own group. That is also good world building, and it doesnt invalidate nor make irrelevant the kaldorei's current group because they are a different ilk as well as a different faction.


    PART III - VIsion of the Future

    for this bit, I would say, the night elven highborne and arcane users have a real niche and important one to explore and expand. In them we can explore the relationship between the priesthood and the night elven society in the pre-sundering era pre-addiction periods ofc, and we can also see a defined version of night elven arcane magic. Most of it is star/moon magic, this is unique to night elves and nightborne, silver beam with edges in a blue/purple mixture is the colour, - you see some arcane spells have this, ones cast by mages and Tyrande, and makes sense given the eye colour of the ngiht elves that was said to be because of the arcane power from their connection to the well.


    Having both a distinctive characteristic, and mindset/culture that is totally kaldorei, as well as their own unique character - there is a place for them that the nightborne do not fill, nor the high elves or blood elves. ANd we would be foolish to think Draenei, humans, forsaken, even orcs, trolls and goblins, not just blood/high/void elves can all have forms of arcane magic, but the original group who invented it and perfected it to its highest level and it's longest period without abuse cannot or shouldn't for some prejudiced reason some players think have an arcane institution and a powerful and dominant one at that.

    Ofc they should.. can you imagine night elves only portrayed as forest elves - it would be boring, when their earlier lore had so much more diversity and richness to them, and it would also be a shame cos I like their vision of the arcane, and while I like other elven groups, I feel they offer something unique and valuable even though it has similarities with the nightborne's. But saying we shouldn't have it is like saying high elves and void elves shouldn't have the arcane part of them because the horde's blood elves do. So only the horde's elves should have it and not the alliance ones? Well, I don't agree, and reminds me yet again how and why I feel the over strong faction emphasis is having a bad effect on players.
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2019-06-06 at 06:32 PM.

  2. #2
    Pit Lord Toho's Avatar
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    The only thing the Night Elves opposed about the highborne was their use of magic which drew the legion.

    With the legion gone that ban on magic is no longer in effect.
    Hell it hasn't been in effect since cataclysm.

    Problem with Suramar was that they were cowards and rather than fight they walled themselves off.
    They should have rejoined the Night Elves but gameplay demanded that the Horde be given Blood Elves 2.0

    And here we are.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The only thing the Night Elves opposed about the highborne was their RECKLESS use of magic which drew the legion.

    With the legion gone that ban on magic is no longer in effect.
    Hell it hasn't been in effect since cataclysm.
    Just added the word reckless for emphasis (in agreement with you btw), this is the key, - it was because it was reckless - and why did they hate that so much? Not just because it drew the legion, but the arcane is sacred to them - people really forget this. yes life and nature is sacred to them, but if you look at their history closely, the arcane is very sacred - Elune worship comes from this, magecraft comes from this, the Well of Eternity was precious, they have used and guarded this with their lives for 15,000 years since they came to be, even if post sundering the main group put a ban on it.


    And if I may add one more point, the night elves opposed the RECKLESS HIGHBORNE, this is another mistake I see made, they were not against those who were responsible, nor those who opposed the queen when it became clear.. in fact, at first they thought it was the palace highborne.


    When wow was first released, we didn't know there was more than one community/group of highborne (we should have guessed in a global empire) in time, when they revealed shen'dralar highborne, Valewalker highborne, Menaar highborne, Farondis highborne in addition to the already known Sunstrider highborne, we know there were many groups of highborne opposed to the queen when the demons came, and before that, were also uneasy about the reckless use of the Well of Eternity in Zin'Azshari - War of the Ancients tells us this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    Problem with Suramar was that they were cowards and rather than fight they walled themselves off.
    They should have rejoined the Night Elves but gameplay demanded that the Horde be given Blood Elves 2.0

    And here we are.
    I believe this is true, I really felt the nightborne story spoke out to the night elven highborne-led society of the invasion period. And Note: highborne led, the nightborne are not all highborne. The story showed the night elven version of arcane addiction that was mentioned in WotA trilogy - although many just felt it was blood elven - it was the inverse of what the blood elves had, and it wasn't there to show how similar they were, but to tell the night elf story in more detail that WotA was telling us.


    Suramar story was a rehash of Zin'Azshari, again, this was bringing the night elf story of the war of the ancients to the forefront. Thalyssra and the nightfallen rebellion are the night elf resistance , and Elisande is Azshara, Suramar is Zin'Azshari - again, the night elf story. It was this story that a blood elven version of TBC was partly based on , yet people just thought hey look, it's like the blood elves - it is blood elven, completely unaware of the period before TBC, where WotA night elven story was told And yes off course it relates to the blood elves, everything of the night elves including the long vigil etc relates to the blood elves, because their ancestors were part of that group till they got exiled.

    They also forget it was only those highborne that got exiled, not ALL highborne, not ALL former arcane users. Many Moonguard ( also arcane users) and highborne had decided to align with the ban they believed was protecting the world and instead focused on other things like druidsm, the lore tells us that when the shen'dralar returned, many night elves who had been highborne before the sundering but put the arcane on pause, rejoined their kin and picked up their calling again. This is in addition to many brand new students who were remarked as being very gifted in the arcane, wanting to study with the shend'ralar.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Just added the word reckless for emphasis (in agreement with you btw), this is the key, - it was because it was reckless - and why did they hate that so much? Not just because it drew the legion, but the arcane is sacred to them - people really forget this. yes life and nature is sacred to them, but if you look at their history closely, the arcane is very sacred - Elune worship comes from this, magecraft comes from this, the Well of Eternity was precious, they have used and guarded this with their lives for 15,000 years since they came to be, even if post sundering the main group put a ban on it.
    It is not so much about the arcane itself, but the scientific approach towards it, meaning legit magecraft. Mages are essentially scientists pushing boundaries and again look at chronicle, it firmly established that the vast majority of the night elves were following the nature ways and pretty much only the highborne were the ones embracing the arcane culture.

    And if I may add one more point, the night elves opposed the RECKLESS HIGHBORNE, this is another mistake I see made, they were not against those who were responsible, nor those who opposed the queen when it became clear.. in fact, at first they thought it was the palace highborne.
    Is that why Shandris says she would have killed estulan and would have preferred not to interact with him but it helps her sentinels. Or that Vestia Moonspear lost friends due to her decision to learn from highborne

    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Vestia_Moonspear
    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Report_to_Silvia

    When wow was first released, we didn't know there was more than one community/group of highborne (we should have guessed in a global empire) in time, when they revealed shen'dralar highborne, Valewalker highborne, Menaar highborne, Farondis highborne in addition to the already known Sunstrider highborne, we know there were many groups of highborne opposed to the queen when the demons came, and before that, were also uneasy about the reckless use of the Well of Eternity in Zin'Azshari - War of the Ancients tells us this.
    Before wow released we knew of at least 2 factions of highborne the Naga and the blood/high elves. As they were introduced in Wc3. And yes they are highborne, because the term highborne describes their caste and that caste splintered into many highborne groups.The Shen'dralar being just one of many highborne groups.

    I believe this is true, I really felt the nightborne story spoke out to the night elven highborne-led society of the invasion period. And Note: highborne led, the nightborne are not all highborne. The story showed the night elven version of arcane addiction that was mentioned in WotA trilogy - although many just felt it was blood elven - it was the inverse of what the blood elves had, and it wasn't there to show how similar they were, but to tell the night elf story in more detail that WotA was telling us.
    Chronicle calls them highborne, so not really sure what you try to argue here.


    Suramar story was a rehash of Zin'Azshari, again, this was bringing the night elf story of the war of the ancients to the forefront. Thalyssra and the nightfallen rebellion are the night elf resistance , and Elisande is Azshara, Suramar is Zin'Azshari - again, the night elf story. It was this story that a blood elven version of TBC was partly based on , yet people just thought hey look, it's like the blood elves - it is blood elven, completely unaware of the period before TBC, where WotA night elven story was told And yes off course it relates to the blood elves, everything of the night elves including the long vigil etc relates to the blood elves, because their ancestors were part of that group till they got exiled.
    Quite the other way around here, the nightborne story was a rehashed blood elf one, from their leader betraying them to the legion causing their rebellion to the addiction and the cure of said addiction at the end of the storyline.

    They also forget it was only those highborne that got exiled, not ALL highborne, not ALL former arcane users. Many Moonguard ( also arcane users) and highborne had decided to align with the ban they believed was protecting the world and instead focused on other things like druidsm, the lore tells us that when the shen'dralar returned, many night elves who had been highborne before the sundering but put the arcane on pause, rejoined their kin and picked up their calling again. This is in addition to many brand new students who were remarked as being very gifted in the arcane, wanting to study with the shend'ralar.
    There is not a single source for your claim here, some of the moonguard embraced the new ways but there isn't a single mention of a highborn stying behind and not leaving with the other highborne to the east. Nor is there a single mention of former mages picking up the arts again.
    Last edited by Combatbutler; 2019-06-06 at 06:30 PM.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Just added the word reckless for emphasis (in agreement with you btw), this is the key, - it was because it was reckless - and why did they hate that so much? Not just because it drew the legion, but the arcane is sacred to them - people really forget this. yes life and nature is sacred to them, but if you look at their history closely, the arcane is very sacred - Elune worship comes from this, magecraft comes from this, the Well of Eternity was precious, they have used and guarded this with their lives for 15,000 years since they came to be, even if post sundering the main group put a ban on it.


    And if I may add one more point, the night elves opposed the RECKLESS HIGHBORNE, this is another mistake I see made, they were not against those who were responsible, nor those who opposed the queen when it became clear.. in fact, at first they thought it was the palace highborne.
    Is that why Shandris says she would have killed estulan and would have preferred not to interact with him but it helps her sentinels. Or that Vestia Moonspear lost friends due to her decision to learn from highborne

    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Vestia_Moonspear
    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Report_to_Silvia


    .
    Shandris is set as a character who isn't fond of the highborne group whose actions brought the legion that killed her parents) - the type of highborne that symbolises them are the addicted, corrupt ilk, now Estulan, who at this stage is uncorrupt, wasn't always. I would imagine Shandris at the cata stage being angry with his ilk. And even those who weren't directly responsible, it was those addicted ones who you can imagine she would hold partly responsible because it is their attitude and behaviour that led to that stage.. that tarnished everything the night elves held dear, including the purer part of arcane wielding (and by pure I mean, non-corrupt, non-addicted, wise and respectful use.)

    This contrasts with the druids further up the road in Feralas that ask you to go help him, tell you they are uncorrupted highborne Quest: The Highborne),

    But also tell you that the druids and the sentinels/priests don't have much to do with one another

    (Quest: General Shandris Feathermoon)

    Giving more shades to kaldorei /long vigil groups and those who assume priestesses and druids were best of buddies - they hardly interacted. And worth noting he is quite keen on taking Eldre'thalas back for the night elves, and he is a druid:

    By the time Shandris meets up with Thalyssra later, she vents anger at her highborne group responsible for the invasion - but then acknowledges Thalyssra is right anyway. An indication that she has somewhat softened. Also each of the examples of her interactions are over arcane night elves who she has not quite met yet (estulan) or just met (Thalyssra) who were part of the groups addicted tot he arcane once, but have since been cured (Thalyssra) or weaned off back to a right state (Estulan).

    the point is, I don't think she would have that view with a Farondis, or a new Darnassian highborne, or a Moonguard. The highborne were responsible for the demons and we know shandris herself was orphaned because of the invasion. Yet she is allied with highborne.


    It is not so much about the arcane itself, but the scientific approach towards it, meaning legit magecraft. Mages are essentially scientists pushing boundaries and again look at chronicle, it firmly established that the vast majority of the night elves were following the nature ways and pretty much only the highborne were the ones embracing the arcane culture.
    Where did you get this impression? ALL night elves were arcane oriented and steeped in that culture by the time of the first invasion, not just he highborne, Malfurion is noted to be saddened by this in WotA trilogy, and Cenarius ahs faded to legend by this time where the night elves in Suramar think he is a myth, he specifically said he withdrew from them when they stopped caring about nature and were too obsessed with the arcane. All the kaldorei continued down the path the Queen was leading, a path that was leaving the the more nobler, sane and wise arcane using and practice, the path the nightborne society is a the visualisation of. They all went there, the sundering ended that for those who didn't have cities to hide, and forced them to break from that addicted culture. Ofc they couldn't adopt any other arcane culture, not even the purer wone the addiction culture had left behind, because the legion threat of invasion prevented that.


    It was obsession with the arcane that was the heart of the addiction issues and the worse parts of the invasion period culture - it is that addict culture the night elves reject and their current highborne group are not in that type of arcane culture, but a purer one - we know this because they are uncorrupted, addiction free arcane users (makes sense. It is not the arcane itself that any night elf at any time (save perhaps only Maiev) hated. And all night elves were that way, WotA tells us night elves learnt spell work and casting like they learnt to read and write, from an early age, and this is exactly what Suramar in Legion depicts.
    https://wow.gamepedia.com/The_Well_of_Eternity

    Furthermore, the night elves used the arcane responsibly before this period, and were using it before the highborne order was created by the Queen. The highborne were just the most arcane fascinated of the night elves and the most talented ones the queen could find. They were not the only arcane night elven group. The moonguard wielded the arcane too, but in battle, and not all of them were highborne. Azsuna ruined temple has Mage priests - an order arcane wielding servers of the Order of Elune, they won't be highborne either.

    It is inaccurate to think that all the non-highborne were not arcane users.. this either comes from the impression the table top RPG notes give that some fans picked up and have treid to form an impression of the night elves that divorces them from their arcane legacy and past, as if only the highborne were arcane wielders. And some go further to minimise the remaining arcane wielding highborne night elves, as if they are some negligible group, scorned and maligned - rather than proud, uncorrupt and very much there because of the approval of ALL the night elves - not to mention boasting the fastest growing order of the lot amongst night elves.


    The arcane is a core part of the night elves and their identity, the long vigil never obscures or removes that, their arcane participation just changes form, instead of sorcery they use the energies in moonwells ..but the reason sorcery is banned is to prevent the legion. In night elf history, blizzard establishes 2 great eras, one that excels in the arcane and one that excels in natures, and Wc3 is the end of the latter one. WoW starts a new era, which I suspect is meant to bring the best of both of their past eras together, except the delay in getting to night elven lore has slowed that up quite a bit.. but every time they do come back to them (note Cataclysm, and note Legion) they make substantial extensions to their lore and very much have the arcane wielding groups every bit as prominent as the druids and the priests.


    • Warcraft 3 = highlighted the Order of Elune - priests and sentinels
    • WotA trilogy - highlighted the highborne and the arcane of the night elves
    • WoW classic - highlighted the druidic culture and aspect oft he night elves that is still quite visiable from the long vigil era
    • WoW TBC - shows you the Illidari and demon hunters
    • Demon hunters are part of the story in all 3 and continue alongside
    • Cataclysm onwards - progresses all facets equally - you get arcane development, druidic development, and female warrior priest development and Illidari - even in the cameso in MoP and WoD you see all 3, and so too in Legion. and also in BFA


    You know I'm not lying in all of these, i'm not just picking this up because i'm imagining, it is there, and certainly challenges your view of neglect and marginalisation.
    If this was some

    Quite the other way around here, the nightborne story was a rehashed blood elf one, from their leader betraying them to the legion causing their rebellion to the addiction and the cure of said addiction at the end of the storyline
    I disagree.. the blodoe lf story of TBc is a rehash of the wotA for benefit of adding more Thalassian lore as blizzard demonise the kael'thas ones having now made Illidan the enemy, but bring the blood elves redemption.

    Legion however is basically there way of telling the WotA for all to see instead of doing ANOTHER time travel expansion.. which they could have done, focusing on central Kalimdor that sunk. The paralles are striking and I point the parallels out point to point. Night elf addiction was not made up in Legion expansion, it is mentioned every time the night elves empires invasion of the legion occurs - the shen'dralar are mentioned as having issues, the nighte lves highborne and non-highborne alike at the end of the WotA trilogy.

    There is not a single source for your claim here, some of the moonguard embraced the new ways but there isn't a single mention of a highborn stying behind and not leaving with the other highborne to the east. Nor is there a single mention of former mages picking up the arts again.
    Well, I guess I know some things you do not about night elves (but then they are the race I specialise in), is mentioned in several cases that some highborne who had put off that mantle returned to it when the ban was lifted and the shen'dralar started recruiting to boost their numbers. At some point I will come across the reference again. if you want proof. My belief is the lore keeper night elves in Azshara zone base you fight, are some of those, as is the highborne who is training new night elves - she is not "the shen'dralar" but "the highborne" only -

    Chronicle calls them highborne, so not really sure what you try to argue here.
    Chronicles talks about the highborne who set up the shield. it never says only the highborne stayed in Suramar, or do I need to remind you most of the kaldorei resistance including Tyarnde Whiseprwind, Malfurion & Illidan Stormrage, Jarod and Maiev Shadowsong all called that same city home and marshalled from their to Black Rook hold to fight the legion. Elisande's highborne order led the city after the second portal attack which their actions saved the kaldorei, but declined joining the resistance. Not every city individual joined the resistance, highborne or none, there is no indication that only elisande's group order remained. Just htat it led those who remained.

    Furthermore you can see there are "lowborne" in the city, in the west portion of the city, there is celaerly an elite and non-elite, Margeaux the vineyard maker of arcwine, is lowborne, and it is mentioned, many of those cartered off ot the dmeons are either those who don't support Elisande or lowborne and hence starved of arcwine.

    No where is it ever said the nightboren are all highborne, in fact, only a small portion of the nightborne have the tag "the highborne" on them.
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2019-06-06 at 08:42 PM.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Shandris is set as a character who isn't fond of the highborne - presumably the addicted, corrupt ilk, now Estulan, who at this stage is uncorrupt, wasn't always. I would imagine Shandris at the cata stage being angry with his ilk.
    Shandris isn't the only one though, interaction between highborne and common night elves is more often than not strained.


    By the time Shandris meets up with Thalyssra later, she vents anger at her highborne group responsible for the invasion - but then acknowledges Thalyssra is right anyway. An indication that she has somewhat softened. Also each of the examples of her interactions are over arcane night elves who she has not quite met yet (estulan) or just met (Thalyssra) who were part of the groups addicted tot he arcane once, but have since been cured (Thalyssra) or weaned off back to a right state (Estulan).
    She vents her frustration at all highborne not just a group. Then you have night elves during the suramar campaign that look down on the nightborne lifestyle and some are outright disgusted by the mere idea of a zoo and sends you out to slaughter thoser involved with it. Silvias friends that leave her, shandris maiev and unnamed guard interacting with Mordent evenshade etc.

    the poin tis, I don't think she would have that view with a Farondis, or a new Darnassian highborne, or a Moonguard. The highborne were responsible for the demons and we know shandris herself was orphaned because of the invasion. Yet she is allied with highborne.
    Farondis is undead that alone makes the general night elves extremely wary of them, they despise the undead in general and on top of that they are highborne.




    Where did you get this impression? ALL night elves were arcane orientatated and steeped in that culture by the time of the first invasion, not just he highborne, Malfurion is noted to be saddened by this in WotA trilogy, and Cenarius ahs faded to legend by this time where the night elves in Suramar think he is a myth, he specifically said he he withdrew from them when they stopped caring about nature and were too obsessed with the arcane.
    It is literally written in chronicle.

    It was obsession with the arcane that was the heart of the addiction issues and the worse parts of the invasion period culture. not the arcane itself persay, And all night elves were that way, WotA tells us night elves learnt spell work and casting like they learnt to read and write, from an early age, and this is exactly what Suramar in Legion depicts.
    Well chronicle retconed that.

    Furthermore, the night elves used the arcane responsibly before this period, and were using it before the highborne order was created by the Queen. The highborne were just the most arcane fascinated of the night elves and the most talented ones the queen could find. They were not the only arcane night elven group. The moonguard wielded the arcane too, but in battle, and not all of them were highborne. Azsuna ruined temple has Mage priests - an order arcane wielding servers of the Order of Elune, they won't be highborne either.
    Which doesn't change a thing that only a minority of their society embraced the arcane according to chronicle if you don't like that take it to blizz but this is current canon.

    It is inaccurate to think that all the non-highborne were not arcane users.. this either comes from the impression the table top RPG notes give that some fans picked up and have treid to form an impression of the night elves that divorces them from their arcane legacy and past, as if only the highborne were arcane wielders. And some go further to minimise the remaining arcane wielding highborne night elves, as if they are some negligible group, scorned and maligned - rather than proud, uncorrupt and very much there because of the approval of ALL the night elves - not to mention boasting the fastest growing order of the lot amongst night elves.
    Again take it up with chronicle the ones embracing the arcane culture were a minority.

    The arcane is a core part of the night leves and their identity, the long vigil never obscures or removes that,their arcane participation just changes form, insteado f sorcery they use the energies in moonwells ..but the reason suorcery is banned is to prevent the legion. In night elf history, blizzard establishes 2 great eras, one that excels in the arcane and one that excels in natures, and Wc3 is the end of the latter one. WoW starts a new era, which I suspect is meant to bring the best of both of their past eras together, except the delay in getting to night elven lore has slowed that up quite a bit.. but every time they do come back to them (note Cataclysm, and note Legion) they make substantial extensions to their lore and very much have the arcane wielding groups every bit as prominent as the druids and the priests.
    Where have you gotten the idea that highborne are an integral part of their society, sure they got their niche spot in cata with the return of the shen'dralar refugees, but their story pretty much ends afterwards. Being entirely discarded to the point not a sinlge one of them showed up in the suramar campaign.

    Warcraft 3 = highlighted the Order of Elune - priests and sentinels
    Nope main center were the druids.

    WotA trilogy - highlighted the highborne and the arcane of the night elves
    It highlighted the ancient empire, but chronicle changed the outlook of the common folk. What you saw there was basically highborne culture and the rest was dragged along.


    WoW classic - highlighted the druidic culture and aspect oft he night elves that is still quite visiable from the long vigil era
    Wow classic shows the general night elf culture which is druidic in its core. Every aspect of their society is about the balance of nature in one way or another.

    WoW TBC - shows you the Illidari and demon hunters
    Illidari aren't really exclusive night elf lore

    Demon hunters are part of the story in all 3 and continue alongside
    And they aren't night elf exclusive


    Cataclysm onwards - progresses all facets equally - you get arcane development, druidic development, and female warrior priest development and Illidari - even in the cameso in MoP and WoD you see all 3, and so too in Legion. and also in BFA
    There was never equal development there has always been an extreme focus on nature with the night elves. Take the entirety of hyjal and the firelands all druid themed, and then you have the average quests on top. While the highborne are a footnote compared to that, so is the priesthood.

    You know I'm not lying in all of these, i'm not just picking this up because i'm imagining, it is there, and certainly challenges your view of neglect and marginalisation.
    If this was some
    You do not keep up with lore changes and would love to see something blizzard seems to be very unwilling to actually give to the night elves, which is highborne culture.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Shandris isn't the only one though, interaction between highborne and common night elves is more often than not strained.
    I updated my previous response, with more links and quotes, and some refining. No she isn't, but it is not the hostile environment your comments seemed to insinuate, in fact quite the opposite, I would reckon that the more strained elements would be amongst the sentinels and wardens, but you only have Maiev really, then the odd Shandris, on the flip side we see Tyrande/Malfurion open doors, other druids, valewalkers and others not displaying hatred, but compassion, making this work, druids like Telaron Windflight, Vestia Moonspear, and the constant portrayl that it's not the arcane culture, but the fallen highborne attitude that the real problem is with. The night elves have no problem with Moonguard, nor with all the arcane users that joined them, the specific ilk was with the "arrogant" highborne groups.

    Naturally it shouldn't surprise you that though at the start some would be angry, no one would have problems with highborne who are uncorrupt and responsible - just because they are highborne - the problem you can imagine is trusting that this change is genuine and they truly have turned away from.




    She vents her frustration at all highborne not just a group. Then you have night elves during the suramar campaign that look down on the nightborne lifestyle and some are outright disgusted by the mere idea of a zoo and sends you out to slaughter thoser involved with it. Silvias friends that leave her, shandris maiev and unnamed guard interacting with Mordent evenshade etc.
    She says highborne yes - I would take it she is meaning/referring to the most notorious aspect of the caste, not all would fit that box, so not every single highborne that ever existed, including the ones who were not corrupt, not addicted and not reckless and never portalled in demons. I mean subtext/context/common sense? But yes, the nightborne culture is the kaldorei invasion/addiction culture, that is the culture they hate. The night elven arcane culture of that period is corrupt, reckless and addicted, - however it wasn't the only arcane culture, there was a period before addiction that was not corrupt, not reckless and was quite noble, Farondis highborne illustrate this.


    Farondis is undead that alone makes the general night elves extremely wary of them, they despise the undead in general and on top of that they are highborne.
    Yet he is classed as a humanoid, he is not a rotting corpse like the forsaken or like the Ravencrest in Black rook hold, this is some weird curse thing going on , there is nothing that says the night elves specifically are very wary of the Farondis, nothing... they





    It is literally written in chronicle.
    Then you're mis-reading or mis-interpreting Chronicles.


    Well chronicle retconed that.
    That is inaccurate, it did not.



    Which doesn't change a thing that only a minority of their society embraced the arcane according to chronicle if you don't like that take it to blizz but this is current canon.
    It didn't, it's not telling you that only the highborne used the arcane. The highborne excelled most at it, please check the words they use precisely.


    Again take it up with chronicle the ones embracing the arcane culture were a minority.
    Please quote - Chronicles simply summarises, and if you take it in context, it hasn't retconned anything from the war of the ancients or other official sources.Otherwise the Moonguard would be gone, so to would the other mage groups like the Temple mages revealed in Legion expansion, and night elves would all have been priests or druids, which they weren't, cos there were no druids till Malfurion became one and WoTA mentions it's because the night elves had turned from it. Because Chronicles doesn't outright state that doesn't all of a sudden mean WotA is non-canon - it is mainly summarising WotA and other material, not re-writing them.



    Where have you gotten the idea that highborne are an integral part of their society, sure they got their niche spot in cata with the return of the shen'dralar refugees, but their story pretty much ends afterwards. Being entirely discarded to the point not a sinlge one of them showed up in the suramar campaign.
    Not highborne, the arcane is an integral part, I spent an entire paragraph distinguishing the two -- grrr.. you're being lazy with what I am writing, skimming rather than reading it properly and in detail like I asked you to. I often speak of wanting the arcane aspect to play more of a role, but this is a desire, not the status quo, I also point out , there is a place for it, and given how core the aracne is to the night elves, it is worth developing. They could call night elf arcana by a different name than highborne, but why bother when it is unique to the night elves, when not night elven, the other highborne that became other things have other names, like naga, satyr, high elf - so you might as well still call it highborne and present it as the untainted original version before the addiction era.

    I did warn that context will help distinguish between what was lore, what was opinion, what was desire, but you will miss that if you just skim what I read, and just hand pick a statement you don't entirely agree with while skipping the context and evidences that support it.



    Nope main center were the druids.
    When I played WC3, male night elves and druids were pretty mysterious. I saw nature stuff, but the most visible were the female warrior priests.


    It highlighted the ancient empire, but chronicle changed the outlook of the common folk. What you saw there was basically highborne culture and the rest was dragged along.
    Chronicles tells a summary, it doesn't invalidate all the detail of the lore that gives that summary context - unless it directly contradicts it, in which case you take the new lore. And nothing I read in Chronicles voume 1 about night elves invalidates anything I have said, it affirms, but there is more detail and that detail is important if you are now looking at motivations, acceptance, character, and key to context



    Wow classic shows the general night elf culture which is druidic in its core. Every aspect of their society is about the balance of nature in one way or another.
    It shows the night elf culture at the stage it was at then, after WC3, after the long vigil - the night elves continue to grow and evolve as they grapple with many changes, including coming out of isolation, lifting the arcane ban, the return of the highborne, having urban communities, involvedin world politics, losing their immortality etc etc, these changes aren't all shown at once, and every update that progresses night elves shows changes, and more.



    Illidari aren't really exclusive night elf lore
    Not now, but they were until TBC, showing you that things change, the long vigil and atittudes to the arcane, the ban, the highborne have all evolved, as more light is shed and the story expanded.

    And they aren't night elf exclusive
    The point is they are night elf inclusive, and night elf based and led.






    There was never equal development there has always been an extreme focus on nature with the night elves. Take the entirety of hyjal and the firelands all druid themed, and then you have the average quests on top. While the highborne are a footnote compared to that, so is the priesthood.



    You do not keep up with lore changes and would love to see something blizzard seems to be very unwilling to actually give to the night elves, which is highborne culture
    . I believe you are the one still hanging on to the impression that night elves are some arcane hating, arcane spurning group, that don't have highborne, and if they do they are some fringe group, despite all the visible indications of them, the lore, the progress, the updates. That show the night elf race having this facet, all of which I have listed in detail. Even if you are choosing just to skip over htem.

  8. #8
    The smartest group survived and are living better than the rest of the dumb population, what a shock.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varitok View Post
    No, she is my waifu. Stop posting and delete this thread immediately.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophenia View Post
    Voted Baine because... Well, Baine. Total nonsensical character, looks like World War II Italy, nobody really understands what role he's supposed to fill, not even himself

  9. #9
    I may have misunderstood a few of your points, but I also only have a few things to add or disagree on.

    First of all, and I think I saw that in another thread too, Wolfheart very specifically pointed out that the Highborne living on Teldrassil were very much restricted in their use of magic. So much so, that they were dissatisfied and thinking about kind of rebelling and went against the restrictions in secret. In Feralas a married couple split up, because the wife wanted to practice magic and was shunned by the others (including her husband) for it. Estulan made his own home there with some people from Feathermoon Stronghold who wanted to practice magic too, because the others were completely intolerant to any use of magic still. Not only Shandris, even though she had the hardest stance against it and wanted to execute Estulan, but had orders from Tyrande not to.
    And this hasn't actually changed, as we were told in Elegy. It changes in Elegy, because the Highborne mages come in and rescue people, despite having been mistrusted and shunned before (because of which they moved out of Darnassus mostly) and they are surprised to hear people cheering for them, even though they are coming to rescue them. They expected to be mistrusted and unwanted even by people on the brink of dying, because that is what they'd been treated like before.

    The 'nature' part of their society in War of the Ancients was practically non existent. Malfurion was the one who was regarded as a savage and he, Illidan and Tyrande were the only ones out of their society (a few others who had left society before non-withstanding) who went to learn about any nature stuff at all.
    The only thing that was ever present was Elune and her priesthood, which was beginning to be regarded as 'backwards' when people turned more towards arcane magic, but was still influential among normal citizens.
    Azshara and the Highborne were distrustful of Hyjal and the Wild Gods, but also knew about their immense power, which is why Azshara never tried to conquer it. And what Azshara regarded as off limits, the other Nightelves never usually revered or sought out.
    That all changed after the WotA, of course, because Malfurion and Tyrande were the ones setting up the new society and they tried to not repeat what they perceived as the worst mistakes from the past. Pure arcane magic was forbidden (not the arcane/divine/nature mixture from the moonwells though), they lived in service of nature and Elune and also with the help of both and even went a bit overboard at times with their decrees against anything different. Although I'd think understandably so, because they are not infallible creatures.

    I do very much agree that they'd probably kind of get a long with Farondis and his people, because those have a real good mixture of magic schools still, even though they also have a very strong emphasis on the arcane and Farondis actually came to the conclusion that what Azshara was doing was wrong and it was, in fact, Azshara's doing before most other people noticed (and some never noticed, like Ravencrest). And they may disagree that ruins that have long been abandoned may not be taken back by nature (like Farondis who thinks his lands are being defiled by wild beasts living there^^). But I also think they may not care too much as long as Farondis doesn't plan on going on a killing spree across the whole world (which I doubt he would).

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    I updated my previous response, with more links and quotes, and some refining. No she isn't, but it is not the hostile environment your comments seemed to insinuate, in fact quite the opposite, I would reckon that the more strained elements would be amongst the sentinels and wardens, but you only have Maiev really, then the odd Shandris, on the flip side we see Tyrande/Malfurion open doors, other druids, valewalkers and others not displaying hatred, but compassion, making this work, druids like Telaron Windflight, Vestia Moonspear, and the constant portrayl that it's not the arcane culture, but the fallen highborne attitude that the real problem is with. The night elves have no problem with Moonguard, nor with all the arcane users that joined them, the specific ilk was with the "arrogant" highborne groups.
    It wasn't only Maiev every warden that followed her, Sentinel Stillbough etc. but I already said that and yes if the moonguard had continued to practice magecraft they would have been punished just like the others and obviously many of them were not fine with the ban and left their society settling in Suramar, cutting of contact for 10.000 years.

    https://youtu.be/Nmqtp9qBhzk?t=151

    Here to admire the highborne's handiwork Thalyssra, to look upon all your hubris has wrought.
    Nothing in there even remotely hints at any distinction she sees between the highborne, absolutely nothing.


    Naturally it shouldn't surprise you that though at the start some would be angry, no one would have problems with highborne who are uncorrupt and responsible - just because they are highborne - the problem you can imagine is trusting that this change is genuine and they truly have turned away from.
    The problem is that the highborne got the collective blame that you try to make a distinction is a foolish notion. The Highborne were received coldly, their rituals under supervision, bigger ones were forbidden, the people were unwelcoming in general. It is mentioned several times


    She says highborne yes - I would take it she is meaning/referring to the most notorious aspect of the caste, not all would fit that box, so not every single highborne that ever existed, including the ones who were not corrupt, not addicted and not reckless and never portalled in demons. I mean subtext/context/common sense? But yes, the nightborne culture is the kaldorei invasion/addiction culture, that is the culture they hate. The night elven arcane culture of that period is corrupt, reckless and addicted, - however it wasn't the only arcane culture, there was a period before addiction that was not corrupt, not reckless and was quite noble, Farondis highborne illustrate this.
    And why would you make that distinction? There is absolutely no reason to.

    Yet he is classed as a humanoid, he is not a rotting corpse like the forsaken or like the Ravencrest in Black rook hold, this is some weird curse thing going on , there is nothing that says the night elves specifically are very wary of the Farondis, nothing... they
    It doesn't matter what he is classed as, they are all undead. They are spirits bound and their greatest ambition is to finally die for real.






    Then you're mis-reading or mis-interpreting Chronicles.
    That is inaccurate, it did not.
    Please quote - Chronicles simply summarises, and if you take it in context, it hasn't retconned anything from the war of the ancients or other official sources.Otherwise the Moonguard would be gone, so to would the other mage groups like the Temple mages revealed in Legion expansion, and night elves would all have been priests or druids, which they weren't, cos there were no druids till Malfurion became one and WoTA mentions it's because the night elves had turned from it. Because Chronicles doesn't outright state that doesn't all of a sudden mean WotA is non-canon - it is mainly summarising WotA and other material, not re-writing them.
    The Majority of night elf society continued honoring the old ways of revering the wilds. That these folk still lived in harmony with the land warmed Cenarius's heart.

    chronicle vl 1 page 95

    Seems pretty cut and dry to me.



    It didn't, it's not telling you that only the highborne used the arcane. The highborne excelled most at it, please check the words they use precisely.
    The highborne were the core of it all, sure other used magecraft as well but it was the highborne spearheading pretty much anything.

    Not highborne, the arcane is an integral part, I spent an entire paragraph distinguishing the two -- grrr.. you're being lazy with what I am writing, skimming rather than reading it properly and in detail like I asked you to. I often speak of wanting the arcane aspect to play more of a role, but this is a desire, not the status quo, I also point out , there is a place for it, and given how core the aracne is to the night elves, it is worth developing. They could call night elf arcana by a different name than highborne, but why bother when it is unique to the night elves, when not night elven, the other highborne that became other things have other names, like naga, satyr, high elf - so you might as well still call it highborne and present it as the untainted original version before the addiction era.
    You confuse arcane arts with arcane itself, magecraft in any form was outlawed, meaning moonguard etc. no matter what kind of people they were if they used magic, they would be killed, such was the law plain and simple. The only reason the highborne were not executed, is because of the sheer amount that defied malfurion.

    I did warn that context will help distinguish between what was lore, what was opinion, what was desire, but you will miss that if you just skim what I read, and just hand pick a statement you don't entirely agree with while skipping the context and evidences that support it.
    I skim most of your posts because you write needlessly long essays



    When I played WC3, male night elves and druids were pretty mysterious. I saw nature stuff, but the most visible were the female warrior priests.
    We must have played a different game then, because tyrande was quite desperate to wake the Archdruid because their nature ally Cenarius had died and then you go around to wake the druids with a druidic artifact and use druidic magic to obliterate Archimonde.


    Chronicles tells a summary, it doesn't invalidate all the detail of the lore that gives that summary context - unless it directly contradicts it, in which case you take the new lore. And nothing I read in Chronicles voume 1 about night elves invalidates anything I have said, it affirms, but there is more detail and that detail is important if you are now looking at motivations, acceptance, character, and key to context
    Yes it tells the very core of the matter, and it specifically mentions night elves lived very close with the land before magecraft came into the picture and it is later mentioned that this old lifestyle was still practised by the majority of the people.


    It shows the night elf culture at the stage it was at then, after WC3, after the long vigil - the night elves continue to grow and evolve as they grapple with many changes, including coming out of isolation, lifting the arcane ban, the return of the highborne, having urban communities, involvedin world politics, losing their immortality etc etc, these changes aren't all shown at once, and every update that progresses night elves shows changes, and more.
    Something that has bothered me for a while is that you think the returned highborne are a big deal, they are a very small refugee population, many of them the most vile highborne still in existence, easily on par with the naga, but you go on about responsible use of the arcane and not being reckless, the Shen'dralar are none of these things.




    Not now, but they were until TBC, showing you that things change, the long vigil and atittudes to the arcane, the ban, the highborne have all evolved, as more light is shed and the story expanded.
    The Illidari did not exist prior to illidan reaching Outland, they are not something that has a night elf staple.

    The point is they are night elf inclusive, and night elf based and led
    .

    Indeed they are lead by a night elf that utterly despises his people and pretty much all they stand for.





    . I believe you are the one still hanging on to the impression that night elves are some arcane hating, arcane spurning group, that don't have highborne, and if they do they are some fringe group, despite all the visible indications of them, the lore, the progress, the updates. That show the night elf race having this facet, all of which I have listed in detail. Even if you are choosing just to skip over htem.
    What you have listed are footnotes at best and are overshadowed by the negative interactions, in fact you have yet to provide a single source for the highborne being really accepted in the night elf society or that highborne in gheneral would be warmly welcomed if they chose to return. That you think Farondis and his people would be seen as good people already tells me that you wish more for things to happen, while ignoring the negatives that happen at the same time.
    Last edited by Combatbutler; 2019-06-06 at 11:58 PM.

  11. #11
    For the life of me OP I have no idea why you've settled on this idea that the night elves are meant to be pro-arcane or the Long Vigil being about the reckless use of magic rather than the use of magic in its entirety. Arcane is not just deemphasized but wholly absent in Warcraft 3 beyond something that must be controlled, druidism, savagery, faith in Elune and a zealous defense of their lands are what set up the night elves and what made them popular. The empire they had before was something they'd left behind as decadent and arcane had explicit associations with the destruction of their society. Their neutering into now being fine with arcane has only been to the detriment of their race, was poorly established and making Maiev a strawman of what was not just the majority position but the only position in night elf lands for 10k years was another reason why Wolfheart sucks.

    If you want to play a magic-using elf lionizing the old empire pre-Azshara, play a blood elf. If you want that elf to be purple, play a nightborne. The sooner arcane is put in the ditch for the night elves, along with giant towns that make easy targets instead of being woodland predators, the reversion of their WC3 gender roles and most of all their infection with human potential, the sooner the night elves can resemble their most popular incarnation.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2019-06-07 at 12:02 AM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    It wasn't only Maiev every warden that followed her, Sentinel Stillbough etc. but I already said that and yes if the moonguard had continued to practice magecraft they would have been punished just like the others and obviously many of them were not fine with the ban and left their society settling in Suramar, cutting of contact for 10.000 years.

    https://youtu.be/Nmqtp9qBhzk?t=151
    Off course they would have ben punished, it was banned on penalty of death, but not out of arcane hate, or hate for highborne culture or any arcane based culture, but because of theuse is believed to return he Legion.

    I point out the Moonguard, as a simple example of night elven arcane users that aren't hated and despised, and point out that many night elves used the arcane, and are not hated for it, it isn't inconceivable that highborne who were notarrogant nor reckless would not be hated. what was hated was not the arcane or arcane culture, but the invasion era , addiction era culture of arrogance and hubris - because it is vile and irresponsible, and treated with recklessness and abuse the arcane which was very precous to the night elves - and that attitude was very un-kaldoriei, born of addiction.. this is what is hated.



    Nothing in there even remotely hints at any distinction she sees between the highborne, absolutely nothing.
    It doesn't havet o, common sense would dictate that you cannot be certain every type of highborne is considered the same by Shandris, just Thalyssra at that particular moment in time, even moments after.. shse is agreeing with Thalyssara, the comment could easily be spur of anger, based on how she use to feel strongly about the harrogant highborne group. Shandris saying doesn't mean all night elves feel that, doesn't mean she considers all highborne that ever existed and that exist now (including those she is allied with) to be that, nor does it mean that is her current view on all arcane users, nor the majority of the night elves.




    The problem is that the highborne got the collective blame that you try to make a distinction is a foolish notion. The Highborne were received coldly, their rituals under supervision, bigger ones were forbidden, the people were unwelcoming in general. It is mentioned several times
    Not denying that because common sense and understanding of how people can think, yields such results, but just as I can agree with that, I can also agree that that, highborne can be forgiven and accepted after that (like Darth'remar's group was until they got exiled, like the shen'dralar are, and the new and returned highborne from amongst the Darnassians are - and yes they are accepted, even if some where initially angry, they were accepted, and their order flourished since - you can't ignore that), not only that, that while the majority of highborne may fit the hated groups description, there would be exceptions, exceptions in individuals (people similar to the nobility Thalyssra and Ly'leth show) and exceptions in groups - like the Farondis highborne … because at the heart of it, it is the hubris, recklessness and culture of addiction that is hated... it's like saying you can understand how people can generalise all black people, or the nobility of a nation, but cannot understand that there would be exceptions to this in nobles or black people that don't fit the profile or follow the actions that the haters despise. And when you look at the haters, and what they hate, and also their own character - like the night elves (where you see they hate arrogance, abuse of their precious arcane magic and recklessness, as well as portalling demons) but their character is benevolent , wise and merciful - it is easy to see that even if they are angry with caste, they would forgive and accept and inicorporate members of that order not following that path - and the game has evidence in both the Sunstrider group and the shen'dralar, and instances of individuals too of one group accepting those of the other who are not so aligned - like the Valewalkers that have both druids and highborne working together.. highborne who are obviously working to solve the craziness addiction in their queen and colleagues has caused -- do you think they will all be hated?.


    And why would you make that distinction? There is absolutely no reason to.
    The EXACT same reason you would say the highborne got the collective blame - as reasoned out above. And the developments that have occurrd that I also point out in the above response.


    It doesn't matter what he is classed as, they are all undead. They are spirits bound and their greatest ambition is to finally die for real.
    That's not the point, leaping to the conclusion that they revile them and despise them like they do the rotting corpses of the scourge and forsaken when this is not what is the case here is what I was challenging. You said they despise undead as if to say the night elves despised the Farondis, when every indication is they admire them, as shown by the night elf twins looking for their parents, as shown by the attitude of the Farondis and how they conducted themselves that is very much in the original spirit of the Kaldorei and it's nobility. honouring the old ways and revering the wilds as we see ancient pre-druids amongst them as well as priests. Then we see Farondis himself, a highborne prince and leader oppose abusive misuse of arcane, opposing nightborne kin who are misuing their power and magic, oppose the legion and its evil, oppose the naga and Queen Azshara - and you want to tell me the Kaldorei daranssians would hate them just because they are highborne - when they are not a group that adopted the corruption the Palace highborne and did, but instead stood against it and are highborne that retained the prior nobility of the arcane users?????




    The Majority of night elf society continued honoring the old ways of revering the wilds. That these folk still lived in harmony with the land warmed Cenarius's heart.

    chronicle vl 1 page 95

    Seems pretty cut and dry tome.
    No combat, you're forcing your narrative by concluding they didn't all use the arcane.. you can still use the arcane, and spells and revere the ways of the wilds live in harmony with the land. This is not retconning any of what was said in the War of the ancients. Arcane usage and mastery is not mutually exclusive with benevolence, nobility, responsibility, beliving in Elune, revering the wilds nor living in harmony. Chronicles points to the majority of the highborne specifically leaving this behind - it is not saying that every type of arcane culture, or arcane user doesn't do this, just the highborne group that got the most addicted.

    Think of the highborne as notorious group of nobles that went down a bad path, got really arrogant and addicted, and annoyed everyone - now, not every highborne waere like that, but most were, this would infuriate most night elves, including some highborne too who don't ascribe to that and see something that was initially a source of honour and pride losing its way. It's got nothing to do with assuming all arcane culture or arcane users were like that -

    You ever seen the stories when nobility gets corrupt, most of the nobles are twats/dickheads that should be shot, but not all of them are, there are nobles amongst them who are opposed to their corruption and fight them, same with the common people. Reverring the wilds is not a magic, it is an attitude, being respectful and living in harmony with the land is not a magic, nor is believing in Elune, you can be all those things and an arcane user. You can also be a person that users a bit of arcane, a bit of nature, a bit of divine stuff - this doesn't make you a sutden t of the arcane or a student of nature or a student of Elune, you're just a person living in a magical society where spells are common place in many categories, you are not arrogant or rejecting the good things from the earlier days of your people.

    Finally.. Chronicles is covering a huge period of time, does the statement hold true to the invasion period? is this the case for most of the first 5000 years, but not the last 500 - 800 years? it doesn't specify, to assume it is a retcon of the WotA, rather than revealing more lore, and actually tying in with the part of the book that tells us the night elves use to get along with Cenarius quite well - and bear in mind all through that period, they were near the well, studying the well, the arcane was being used, Elune had been discerned - Arcane, nature and Elune were part of their society then too. They had arcane in their culture.. what happened towards the period of the invasion was that arcane had become obsessed over and the highborne and most of the night elven population addicted to it (highborne more than most) and many had forsaken everything else for the arcane - it doesn't mean that they didn't revere the wilds or love living in harmony - the statement only lets us know that the highborne group in particular did not do that … and this is in line with what we see.


    WE see arcane using noble houses like Ravencrest, highborne groups like Farondis, still revering the wilds (doesn't mean they want to live in them like druids) and loving harmony with the land, but we also see highborne as we are told, that the highborne do not, so in general the highborne caste do not at this point.


    Another point worth noting, is that the highborne led by Darth'remar that get expelled and become the high elves don't seem to lose their love of nature and forestry either... their qualm was using the arcane - it wasn't hating nature. When the lore tells us they left and distanced themselves from their night elven roots, it doesn't mention they gave up loving nature or the arcane (which are two things a core part of the night elves) what it mentions they did was change their culture focus, abandon their nocturnal nature, skin colour changing, and abandoned Elune worship. But they chose a land that most resembled the Kalimdor they left, rich forest land, and up to WC2, the high elves are shown as loving nature. Their society is not like the nightborne's (i.e. kaldorei highborne led society around the invasion era) it eschewed responsible use of magic as one of its pillars, focused on ensuring magic use didn't draw the legion's attention, and did away with much of the fussy particulars of kaldorei pre-sundering invasion period society. They were all highborne, unlike the nightborne society you see where some aren't and you have some elites and nobles like Thalyssra/Ly'leth kind to everyone they interact low or high, but many others like loyalists in the elite quarter very harsh to non-highborne like Margeaux and others, treating them like servants with a nasty attitude, - you don't get this impression about the high elves at all.




    The highborne were the core of it all, sure other used magecraft as well but it was the highborne spearheading pretty much anything.
    They were the leading group yes, the Queen exalting their status, this is true, but my point is that it wasn't only the highborne that used the arcane, they are not the only arcnae users, they are just the most talented, and the group that mostly abandoned the older land harmony living, wilds revering, benevolent, wise kaldorei attitudes. But as said above, not every single highborne did that (the Farondis did not), but most did.



    You confuse arcane arts with arcane itself, magecraft in any form was outlawed, meaning moonguard etc. no matter what kind of people they were if they used magic, they would be killed, such was the law plain and simple. The only reason the highborne were not executed, is because of the sheer amount that defied malfurion.
    I am not confusing this, that is not what I am saying in the paragraph you quoted. All you have written here is correct, but I was saying something else.I did not say there were some forms of magecraft outlawed, don't misquote or misunderstand me, using the arcane for sorcery, especially from the well was outlawed because it would draw the legion - (how many times must I repeat it, I say it in nearly every response, I'm not sure why you think I think some parts of mageraft were accepted).

    however that is not what I am talking about in that paragraph.. I am talking about this era now, you seem to keep thinking it is still the long vigil and the arcane is banned, it is not. I am pointing out here, that both arcane usage (not just the arcane and its energy which was always a part of the night elves) and the highborne are part of the night elves now, but the current institution/caste of the highborne is not behaving or operating like the notorious highborne of the invasion/addiction period and was merely saying that, they could call them something else other than highborne, but why should they...? The world may know highborne notorious because of their hubris and arrogance of that period, but they weren't always like that, originally they and Queen Azshara herself were quite noble, so I feel the night elven arcane using group should kepe the name highborne but portray the noble version of it, how they were before they got all arrogant, all addicted, stopped revering the wilds or caring about living in harmony with the land.. this is one way the night elven highborne



    I skim most of your posts because you write needlessly long essays
    I wouldn't need to if you actually read them, most of my responses are repeating stuff I already wrote, if you actually read them, we wouldn't have to spend time pointing out what I already said or explaining it in a different way, we could get more ideas and thoughts from you. Please don't find that insulting, I know many people don't read everything, it is insulting to me, but as I explained to you, I actually take the time to read what you say, sometimes more than ones, I may write a lot, but please extend the same courtesy, and you may find that I am not stupid or wrong, or misguided but actually have some valid points you may not have picked up on, or missed. But you need to read it. You don't need to hurry to response, this topic took a few days to write (each segment from my responses to you in the other post, actually took several hours to write) I would write a little then come back, write a little etc, time consuming, but because I respect the people I am responding to, I take the time, I ask that you extend the same courtesy, how can I have a decent discussion with you if you're not actually reading what I say.? There is no hurry to read it all in one go or rush. Take your time, leave it till you have time. Use edge or a browser that allows you to make notes on it with things you observe or just highlight a portion to come back to, take your time responding. Let's have a fruitful discussion.







    We must have played a different game then, because tyrande was quite desperate to wake the Archdruid because their nature ally Cenarius had died and then you go around to wake the druids with a druidic artifact and use druidic magic to obliterate Archimonde.
    Malfurion plays a role, yes, and we have druid units always in bear form, but tyrande and her female warriors dominated the show, from the first introduction tot he end, there were others including Illidan, but Malfurion and Illidan were the only night elf males we actually saw as night elves, and yes I rembmer the burly night elf male figures, but vast majority of actual night elf units were female. this is why I aid, to me, males and druidsm were very much a mystery in Warcraft 3, one that wow would reveal more fully, and WotA would tell the story of their leader.



    Yes it tells the very core of the matter, and it specifically mentions night elves lived very close with the land before magecraft came into the picture and it is later mentioned that this old lifestyle was still practised by the majority of the people.
    Before Magecraft dominated the scene. The night elves throughout that period were Elune worshipping, arcane studying, and this continued to grow after they made progress and weren't satisfied with nature dominated existence. However the real distinguishing point is the highborne caste who despite their great arcane acumen, srtop revering the wilds and caring about living in harmony with the land, at this stage they are arrogant and addicted (again, not every single one of them, just the most notorious of them that lead the empire, most of them, not all of them.



    Something that has bothered me for a while is that you think the returned highborne are a big deal, they are a very small refugee population, many of them the most vile highborne still in existence, easily on par with the naga, but you go on about responsible use of the arcane and not being reckless, the Shen'dralar are none of these things.
    And it bothers me you do not. Ofc they are a big deal, and they started small (numbers unknown), but have since grown. It's big because it marks a turning point in kaldorei post vigil society and the return of an institution that was lost to addiction, but now redeemed.

    It is significant because the arcane itself is a core to the night elf, they are still filled and suffused with it, made from it, still very talented in it, but they stopped using it for that 10k period to prevent the legion from returning. Without it they couldn't rebuild any of their former civilziaiton, none of the good things about it could be restored. Especially now their character had returned to their pre-addiction nobility and benevolence.

    the highborne returning and arcane usage is significant in many ways to them cause it affords the original pre-sundering kaldorei who were arcane masters that revered the wilds, lived in harmony with all and worshipped the Goddess Elune, and this tri-une combination is what launched their great civilization, before addiction poisoned their leading caste. Now that is over - it opens an exciting possibility for the night elves, to see them become something we only read about but have never sseen.

    It is not insignificant, because we have seen it get as much development and mention in both novels from Cataclysm, and Legion - blizzard has taken time to bring to life and to the present much of this side of them.. new set, new architecture, the prisinte night elven pre-sundering city. And even with the nightborne going horde now, we must remember that are a night elven group showing us a stage of night elven culture. There is much development and presence of the night elven arcane as there is druidsm and the Order of Elune (priest/sentinel/warden/huntress). if you think about the time taken to show the shen'dralar, the arcane mages, the units, the representation from cata to now.. it is not insignificant.

    And I like that. WE saw the arcane group grow - lots of night elves coming to study, lots return, in MoP, WoD and BfA, we see as many if not more arcane units than we do druid ones or priests. Sure WoT showed us durids and sentinels as a nod to Warcraft 3, but the mages weren't absent either, mentioned in the story, seen in the cinematic, and off course in BFA itself helping the alliance. Darkshore has the new order of the Black moon -that has merged a faction of priests, druids, sentinels and wardens into a new group , but the mages did not disappear - you see them in the assaults, in island expeditions and we know they suffered the smalleddst casualities from the WoT




    The Illidari did not exist prior to illidan reaching Outland, they are not something that has a night elf staple.
    That's what we thought, but expanded demon hunter lore shows otherwise

    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Illysanna_Ravencrest

    Where did all the many night elven demon hunters you see in the videos come from also? Illidan has attracted followers who followed his teachings in his footsteps even while he was imprisoned, though we don't know of any till classic. But Illidan is as much a star of WotA as a sorcerer and demon hunter as Malfurion the druid, and Tyrande the Priestess of Elune are in WotA, WC3 and beyond. He and what he institutes has a lot of time (2 novels), (2 expansions), and recurring characters that they have taken time to show, even though there numbers are very small, they are not insignificant. Showing you, it's not all about numbers.
    .

    Indeed they are lead by a night elf that utterly despises his people and pretty much all they stand for.
    Yet loves them and it is love for them that has motivated his cause of action and determined everything he has done. The legion is hated so much by him because of what it did to his people and his civilizaiton - the night elves - his world, and though they reviled him, even after 10k years, he still goes to stop the legion.. he blames them for all of it. Not that he isn't angry with his people, I am not sure if you can understand that you can love something or someone and still quite annoyed with them, you can also love without liking.






    What you have listed are footnotes at best and are overshadowed by the negative interactions, in fact you have yet to provide a single source for the highborne being really accepted in the night elf society or that highborne in gheneral would be warmly welcomed if they chose to return. That you think Farondis and his people would be seen as good people already tells me that you wish more for things to happen, while ignoring the negatives that happen at the same time.[/QUOTE]

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    For the life of me OP I have no idea why you've settled on this idea that the night elves are meant to be pro-arcane or the Long Vigil being about the reckless use of magic rather than the use of magic in its entirety.
    WEll you mis-understand me if you think I am settling for the idea that night elves are pro arcane - my point was showing that the arcane is a core part of the night elves. And this insituttion is there.

    You also don't understand me if you think I think the long vigil was being about the reckless use of magic - the long vigil was exactly that a Long vigil dedicated to watching and preventing the return of the legion, and the chief thing was guarding the well of eternity and preventing using the arcane magic they are surrounded by for 10,000 years from used and thus calling the legion.. it is not about reckless use of magic, this is what the invasion period of the pre-sundering era was about.

    There is ad ifference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Arcane is not just deemphasized but wholly absent in Warcraft 3 beyond something that must be controlled, druidism, savagery, faith in Elune and a zealous defense of their lands are what set up the night elves and what made them popular.
    Because Wc3 is showing you a period of the night elves that ends the long vigil era which is the era without arcane magic, just as Legion and WotA shows you night elven societies when it I s very much a part of... differenet medium and stages show differen things, this shouldn't surprisedy ou.



    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The empire they had before was something they'd left behind as decadent and arcane had explicit associations with the destruction of their society. Their neutering into now being fine with arcane has only been to the detriment of their race, was poorly established and making Maiev a strawman of what was not just the majority position but the only position in night elf lands for 10k years was another reason why Wolfheart sucks.
    The empire was destroyed not left behind, a culture of addiction and hubris led by the highborne was left behind, not their civilizaiton, that was taken. Arcane wasn't left behind either, arcane magic usage was banned, but arcane was very much there, just not used for magecraft because of the legion. it is part of their story, an empire destroyed is not the same as magic ceasing to be a part of the night elves or did you not read
    this.



    Or the chronicles excerpt, ignoring that they are made from and by the arcane, infused with its energy and power, and throughout the long vigil as well as the pre-sundering era, have had a constant source of arcane energy with them, propgating it throughout their lands via moonwells every bit a part of them as nature love or Elune - do not think because they don't use the arcane for spells, that it is not a part of them.

    Secondly, I never said night elves have an arcane empire now, just that the arcane I part of them, nor am I thinking that the empire is something that is forming again or being a part to.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post

    If you want to play a magic-using elf lionizing the old empire pre-Azshara, play a blood elf. If you want that elf to be purple, play a nightborne.
    Well if you read what I wrote, you would see that is not what I want at all, you would see me recognise the nightborne for what they are and distinguish them from what arcane community of today's Kaldorei highborne are, and it is different.

    You would see I certainly don't want a "magic-using elf lionizing old empire Azshara minded purple elf" and make a lot of points on identifying how and when their are different type of arcane night elven users, not all locked to that one model, and that the very particular type I like and feel is what the current kaldorei highborne are.. there own thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The sooner arcane is put in the ditch for the night elves, along with giant towns that make easy targets instead of being woodland predators, the reversion of their WC3 gender roles and most of all their infection with human potential, the sooner the night elves can resemble their most popular incarnation.
    That's what you want for night elves, and you have every right to do desire, that, I want more than that. I love the woodland predator, the strict gender roles, but I also love the good, noble responsible highly talented night elf arcane mage in its high fantasy advanced civilization very intelligent and talented with magic and knowledge, I also love the benevolent wise nature and peace loving druid at one with nature loving its tranquilty, peace, and lfluorishing and expanding, able to turn into animals and wake up trees. I love that too.


    And the mysterious majestic serene Priestess of Elune, with star and moon focus, I found strangely alluring and mesmerizing, in their elegant temples of silver and purples and white reflecting a connecetion of arcane and nature - I want more of that too.

    And finally I love the edgy bad boy, anti-hero type demon hunter, with a noble heart for venegenace against evil like the demons, willing to go to huge extents to save his people including getting scarred, but wielding a terrible and dangerous power his sheer determination of will allows him to master to use to accomplish his tasks as master of fel, and not goody good guy.


    I love all this, it is the variation and combination in this night world setting under moon and stars, with high magic, unique arcane magic, unique nature magic, unique goddess, and woodland predatory that I like.


    Good for you if you only like the Woodland predator of Warcraft 3. I liked that too, but I was fascinated with the pure arcane wielders of the pre-sundering empire before their addiction, as well as the amazing druid forest lords of the long vigil era, and the edgy demon hunters. These are all part of the night elves, along with an Arcane Well of Eternity they are from, a massive World Tree connected to a nature realm, and an actually divine Goddess beign connectd to the moon and stars.


    So excuse me if just one aspect isn't enough for me.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by formerShandalay View Post
    I may have misunderstood a few of your points, but I also only have a few things to add or disagree on.

    First of all, and I think I saw that in another thread too, Wolfheart very specifically pointed out that the Highborne living on Teldrassil were very much restricted in their use of magic. So much so, that they were dissatisfied and thinking about kind of rebelling and went against the restrictions in secret.
    It wasn't in Wolfheart… in wolfheart, the highborne insist that they should not be restricted in their use of arcane magic, nor have to adopt the darnassian culture, and that they pick their students who would become part of the highborne. As part of their terms and conditions. Malfurion tells them to give it some time, but all their conditions will be met.. be patient, there is still anger, but most night elves have come round. In time all will, it could take a few years.

    However it was in Wolfheart it was mentioned about rebelling about the restrictions in secret - but that's not exactly how it went on, they were practicing the arcane in the forest in secret and were busted by Malfurion who warned them that no misuse of magic against the balance of nature would be tolerated and that their request hadn't been approved yet - however since that opening interaction, their conditions were met and approved, and things have moved on since. What people don't seem to factor in when they think is that things move on,what may have been the case at the start of the story is not always the same later on, as things happen, especially when the reasons for certain things being one way, change or get revealed to be wrong,you can expect attitudes to shift and change even if blizzard don't come back and actuyually state, "everyone now htings differently" if they thought one way and the reasons no longer a pply orare shown to be false,y oucan and should expect change, and you will also see indications of change later down the line.

    Since MoP/WoD - I have seen no indication that the night elves haven't come round. In Cata we were shown lots of new mages and night elves flocking to study under the highborne. In WoD we also saw a lot of night elf mages, as well as druids and priests represented, in l egion we saw a lot more of their pre-sundering culture in the nightborne, and more of their arcnae users in both the Moonguard and Farondis - that is 2 zones dedicated to showing night elven arcane lore. We had the demon hunters and we had the druids in Val'sharah as well as the Wardens of the towers and the vaults, and the Ravencrest undead in Black rook hold

    This topic was here to challenge pre-conceptions about the night elves, by highlighting the instnaces and evidences in game, in lore that might be saying something different to what a lot of people think. It is not saying that the arcane dominates the kaldorei, nor is it saying that druids and priests aren't a major part of the kaldorei.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by formerShandalay View Post
    In Feralas a married couple split up, because the wife wanted to practice magic and was shunned by the others (including her husband) for it. Estulan made his own home there with some people from Feathermoon Stronghold who wanted to practice magic too, because the others were completely intolerant to any use of magic still. Not only Shandris, even though she had the hardest stance against it and wanted to execute Estulan, but had orders from Tyrande not to.
    And this hasn't actually changed, as we were told in Elegy. It changes in Elegy, because the Highborne mages come in and rescue people, despite having been mistrusted and shunned before (because of which they moved out of Darnassus mostly) and they are surprised to hear people cheering for them, even though they are coming to rescue them. They expected to be mistrusted and unwanted even by people on the brink of dying, because that is what they'd been treated like before.
    Yes this all happened, but I'm not saying that everyone amongst the night elves loved and embraced both the use of arcane magic or the returned highborne - however to use one example that highlights some difficulties, but ignore the sheer volume of htose that did join not to mention, that the alliance was reached, and they were accepted might obscure the reality of what is going amongst htem.

    Malfurion did say it would take a fewy ears, and that story witht he priest, is at thes tart of it. Has anything happened in kaldorie society that you feel would have changed the views of some who were still mistrusting?

    Well yes.. a lot.


    Would some anger still remain over the highborne's role in the wotA ? Yes, everyone would still be angry about that - but does that mean anger at something that is actually worthy of anger would mean they would be angry at blameless arcane users, or reformed ones? or won't accept them? No it doesn't.


    Were all arcane users portalling demons in or arrogant and absusive? Ofc not! Most night elves used the arcane, including moonguard and they were heroes of the war, so obviously anger is not against all arcane users, or the arcane itself. But the highborne group..BUT !!!!!


    Does that mean there wouldn't be some reticence about aracne usage given what happened before? Naturally, amongst some, especially in a society if you've been warned off arcane for a while.. is this most of society or just some? I would say only a few - because they do accept both arcane usage and the highborne too, and also their are revealtions about the arcane to factor in.


    Since WC3, and then cata and now Legion, many revelations about the arcane have come to light, that the darnassian community would not have known or not believed but now would do, and would lead to changes.. this should not surprise anyone: A few are:
    • Blue dragons have also returned, available to verify claims (they were absent during the long vigil and couldn't help inform certain decisions,
    • DRaenei arcane users, high elven ones that didn't fall to corruption, and
    • Responsible night elven arcane wielders like the Moonguard and Farondis.
    • Revelations about the Legion's true purpose and goal being Azeroth the titan (not the night elves' magic well).
    • Proof that wielding the arcane can be disguised from the twisting nether, and thus they could have used magic. (the high elves and shend'ralar would provide this)
    • Cure for magic addiction and understanding on how to prevent it.
    • Evidence of the nobility of arcane users, including highborne ones in that the shen'dralar have remained uncorrupt as have the new darnassians.
    • Farondis have demonstrated and reminded all who would know the highborne were quite noble before many adopted addiction , arrogance and hubris, and Farondis is evidence of some who remained in the original incarnation, furthermore:
    • The current Darnassian ones have been impeccable in character - Humans like Khadgar, Dalaran, Draenei and others are also evidence that arcane usage can be responsible and great too, and they don't need that evidence anyway, as they would remember themselves in the past.


    The increasing presence of night elven mages is an indication of both the responsibility and trust of the kaldorei, and it is not a definitive stamenet that all are okay or all over, but certainly and indication that is is generally acecpeted, and a lot do love. What I hoped to challenge was people who thought it was marginalised, much hated, and just a minor or insignificant part of the kaldorie. It isn't, and it doesn't have to be. Furthremore I like that isn't, it really is a part of the kaldoriei - even if its practice was absent for a while. But its practice being absent doesn't mean it was absent - it was present in the Well of Eternity itself, in the Moonwells and lets not forget the spells that druids and priests use that are arcane energy - they may not be sorcery/magecraft, but they do utilise arcane energy.


    Quote Originally Posted by formerShandalay View Post
    The 'nature' part of their society in War of the Ancients was practically non existent. Malfurion was the one who was regarded as a savage and he, Illidan and Tyrande were the only ones out of their society (a few others who had left society before non-withstanding) who went to learn about any nature stuff at all.
    The only thing that was ever present was Elune and her priesthood, which was beginning to be regarded as 'backwards' when people turned more towards arcane magic, but was still influential among normal citizens.
    Azshara and the Highborne were distrustful of Hyjal and the Wild Gods, but also knew about their immense power, which is why Azshara never tried to conquer it. And what Azshara regarded as off limits, the other Nightelves never usually revered or sought out.
    That all changed after the WotA, of course, because Malfurion and Tyrande were the ones setting up the new society and they tried to not repeat what they perceived as the worst mistakes from the past. Pure arcane magic was forbidden (not the arcane/divine/nature mixture from the moonwells though), they lived in service of nature and Elune and also with the help of both and even went a bit overboard at times with their decrees against anything different. Although I'd think understandably so, because they are not infallible creatures.

    I do very much agree that they'd probably kind of get a long with Farondis and his people, because those have a real good mixture of magic schools still, even though they also have a very strong emphasis on the arcane and Farondis actually came to the conclusion that what Azshara was doing was wrong and it was, in fact, Azshara's doing before most other people noticed (and some never noticed, like Ravencrest). And they may disagree that ruins that have long been abandoned may not be taken back by nature (like Farondis who thinks his lands are being defiled by wild beasts living there^^). But I also think they may not care too much as long as Farondis doesn't plan on going on a killing spree across the whole world (which I doubt he would).
    I am in agreement with all of this, I'm not sure why you think my post or me disagrees with this, You are 100 % correct.
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2019-06-07 at 11:54 AM.

  13. #13
    @ravenmoon Wow. A massive dissertation. Or shall we say a thesis?

    Jokes aside, there is a measure of perception involved here. Illidari are significant in the role they play, but they are not a part of the Kaldorei faction - at least not now maybe blizzard would later. They play no role with the night elves except for their leader.

    You can be significant but not part of a main group. Anyone would be blind not to see the arcane has always played a significant role with night elves both when actively used and in the Long Vigil groups that banned it. But there was no arcane culture highborne or otherwise for their main group for 10,000 years.

    Arcane cultures a

    I do acknowledge they have an arcane community now, but the it is not an arcane culture in the faction. That arcane community does operate in an arcane culture but it is not the famous reckless highborne one we all know they despise, I agree it is a purer one that we got a good glimpse of with the court of Farondis and it is highborne, but it is limited to that community large or small.

    The playable Night elves are not all there is to the night elves, I know that - and there is an emerging culture that is neither Long vigil nor the corrupt highborne one at the end of the pre- Sundering era. It is a new one that has elements representing the various groups of the current Kaldorei, this includes the newly restored highborne group as well as the Druids and the priests, sentinels and wardens. And it will likely grow to encompass more like the Moonguard rebuilt, dreamwardens, valewalkers, and Illidari and new ones like the Black Moon- key word being likely

    Perhaps it is closest to the culture they had prior to the addiction obsession of the highborne, but we don’t really know what that is like - just that today, different groups show bits of it - druids show the nature bitnof it, the Farondis show the arcane bits of it, and the Priestesses and sentinels show the Elune bits of it etc - the new night elf factions are also an indication it is something new overall, but with a core that goes back to the better days of the previous-sundering era.

    Currently the night elves are not all united, so there is clearly more story left to be told for them.

    I wish you good luck, that whatever blizzard shows for you guys, it would be something appealing and awesome all of you would like and be satisfied. The night elves are too big and well loved a group with too many now iconic facets for blizzard to just ditch and forget - and I suspect they have now noticed a lot of you care about them and developing them well is greatly desired.

    So good luck
    Last edited by Beloren; 2019-06-07 at 02:00 PM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmAddict View Post
    @ravenmoon Wow. A massive dissertation. Or shall we say a thesis?

    Jokes aside, there is a measure of perception involved here. Illidari are significant in the role they play, but they are not a part of the Kaldorei faction - at least not now maybe blizzard would later. They play no role with the night elves except for their leader.
    The player night elf demon hunter certainly plays a role, being Illidari doesnt mean you sit outside the current conflicts. Last time I checked a night elf demon hunter player fights for both faction and race, and was the leader of the Illidari in Illidans absence.

    For this to work, I think they will canonically choose the Illidari as night elven, [it would a huge snub not to, given how central a role Illidan has played] they are the majority and senior members of the group, as expected. My feeling is they would then carve a separate sub faction for blood elf Illidari group to lead the Fel elves, since we already met them, and I can see the Illidari blood elves rescuing them and some of the other misguided ones and adding them to their cause.


    You can be significant but not part of a main group. Anyone would be blind not to see the arcane has always played a significant role with night elves both when actively used and in the Long Vigil groups that banned it. But there was no arcane culture highborne or otherwise for their main group for 10,000 years.
    I never said there was an arcane culture amongst the Darnassians during the long vigil. There was amongst the shen'dralar and nightborne though.

    Even with an Arcane ban on using sorcery, the long vigil group was still arcane centred, cos all they did was actively stop the use of arcane magic, while guarding an arcane well they were still connected to, then took that magic arcane water and created moonwells all over the place. They may not have been using the arcane for spells, but that group had the arcane at thr centre of their existence and their activity..,without the arcane moonwells, much of what they achieved for nature and purifying would not have been possible without it. Arcane boosts nature too, and life, intelligence, stature etc, and that's just its energy, they mastered how to use it to do so much more before the sundering but wouldnt use that application during the long vigil for fear of the Legion returning. But their entire operation was centred around the arcane, albeit stopping its use, while using its properties to improve nature and purify maladies when combined with specific Elune spells.

    There is a distinction between types 9f arcane usage, sorcery is an advanced form of the magecraft we know, and this was banned as it drew from the well to employ. I am not sure they were aware you could draw from the atmosphere because the Well's implosion saturated Azeroths air with it, but using sorcery from that source would also be banned, cos of same effect. Other uses of arcane energy would be Elune pray abilities, ways Moonkin and balance druid cast spells that draw from the stars or moon light rather than the Well or the atmosphere.

    So you see, even without sorcery and an arcane culture, the arcane itself was still an integral part of them. And let's not forget the spell arsenal of their Moon Priests and balance druids are arcane energy from the stars and moon, quite possibly acceptable because their source wss not the well or the planet but the stars, meaning no lighting up if Azeroth in the nether from their use to draw demons.

    That Was Then, This is Now
    That was then, it has changed now, the point is arcane usage is back, there is a culture of it, and it is not insignificant nor marginalised.. nor should it be. To view the night elves as some anti arcane, forest only, city hating group. It's just not the case. The way I see this race is a race that has cities and temples in forests, that arcane and nature are a core part and religion underpins both.

    I do acknowledge they have an arcane community now, but the it is not an arcane culture in the faction. That arcane community does operate in an arcane culture but it is not the famous reckless highborne one we all know they despise, I agree it is a purer one that we got a good glimpse of with the court of Farondis and it is highborne, but it is limited to that community large or small.
    But you admit, the arcane is part of their culture,

    The playable Night elves are not all there is to the night elves, I know that - and there is an emerging culture that is neither Long vigil nor the corrupt highborne one at the end of the pre- Sundering era. It is a new one that has elements representing the various groups of the current Kaldorei, this includes the newly restored highborne group as well as the Druids and the priests, sentinels and wardens. And it will likely grow to encompass more like the Moonguard rebuilt, dreamwardens, valewalkers, and Illidari and new ones like the Black Moon- key word being likely

    Perhaps it is closest to the culture they had prior to the addiction obsession of the highborne, but we don’t really know what that is like - just that today, different groups show bits of it - druids show the nature bitnof it, the Farondis show the arcane bits of it, and the Priestesses and sentinels show the Elune bits of it etc - the new night elf factions are also an indication it is something new overall, but with a core that goes back to the better days of the previous-sundering era.

    Currently the night elves are not all united, so there is clearly more story left to be told for them.
    More on this, but I think this is the in the right direction they are going with, and I admit, it is a new culture and cannot be called an arcane one (though that isnt what I was trying to say), but the arcane remains are core part of them, it's just that arcane practice isnt culture wise, just limited to the highborne group atm. But that group is not marginal, nor irrelevant and represents a core part of their identity that hasn't faded or disappeared just because the darnassians had to ban the arcane during the long vigil.

    In addition, that arcane group is not useless or noobs, they are highly talented, have the the same level of arcane talent of the race in the height of its pre sundering arcane might, which you see the nightborne atm especially led by the shen'dralar - which means all the cool stuff they did with the arcane pre sundering can be done again, and more, because this group continued arcanelearning and were the group that handled the Queen's wonder projects, so if blizzard wanted, the current darnassian highborne group could really bring back a lot of the fancy cool arcane wonders part of the race in the pre sundering era, while the druids show the cool nature stuff and the priestess order the rockstar badass female warriors.
    I wish you good luck, that whatever blizzard shows for you guys, it would be something appealing and awesome all of you would like and be satisfied. The night elves are too big and well loved a group with too many now iconic facets for blizzard to just ditch and forget - and I suspect they have now noticed a lot of you care about them and developing them well is greatly desired.

    So good luck
    Well I hope they do,it shouldnt be a tall order
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2019-06-07 at 06:05 PM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    snip
    For the sake of everyone on this forum lets just agree to disagree, before we write an entire novel down here.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmAddict View Post
    @ravenmoon Wow. A massive dissertation. Or shall we say a thesis?
    I prefer ramblings. Ravenmoon has a special gift where he writes for pages and yet its all the same garbage he always posts.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    snip
    Yes your night elves are precious to you, but I wasn’t disagreeing with you, just offering greater clarity.
    The way you respond is like you think we are fighting you.

    I was just pointing out my observations. Largely support why you said.

    And you don’t need an essay for every response. You are not going to convince us anymore. Just put us off reading what you write

    [QUOTE]
    night elf demon hunter certainly plays a role, being Illidari doesnt mean you sit outside the current conflicts. Last time I checked a night elf demon hunter player fights for both faction and race, and was the leader of the Illidari in Illidans absence.

    I never said there was an arcane culture amongst the Darnassians during the long vigil. There was amongst the shen'dralar and nightborne though.
    perhaps not, but you write so much, no one is going to check to see if you did or not. Face it, no one cares this much about night elves. They are just one race amongst many in a silly video game their males don’t even seem to be bothered with for more than sacrificial lambs. Why do
    You care so much that they are accurately portrayed?

    Even with an Arcane ban on using sorcery, the long vigil group was still arcane centred, cos all they did was actively stop the use of arcane magic, while guarding an arcane well they were still connected to, then took that magic arcane water and created moonwells all over the place. They may not have been using the arcane for spells, but that group had the arcane at thr centre of their existence and their activity..,without the arcane moonwells, much of what they achieved for nature and purifying would not have been possible without it. Arcane boosts nature too, and life, intelligence, stature etc, and that's just its energy, they mastered how to use it to do so much more before the sundering but wouldnt use that application during the long vigil for fear of the Legion returning. But their entire operation was centred around the arcane, albeit stopping its use, while using its properties to improve nature and purify maladies when combined with specific Elune spells.

    There is a distinction between types 9f arcane usage, sorcery is an advanced form of the magecraft we know, and this was banned as it drew from the well to employ. I am not sure they were aware you could draw from the atmosphere because the Well's implosion saturated Azeroths air with it, but using sorcery from that source would also be banned, cos of same effect. Other uses of arcane energy would be Elune pray abilities, ways Moonkin and balance druid cast spells that draw from the stars or moon light rather than the Well or the atmosphere.

    So you see, even without sorcery and an arcane culture, the arcane itself was still an integral part of them. And let's not forget the spell arsenal of their Moon Priests and balance druids are arcane energy from the stars and moon, quite possibly acceptable because their source wss not the well or the planet but the stars, meaning no lighting up if Azeroth in the nether from their use to draw demons.

    That Was Then, This is Now
    That was then, it has changed now, the point is arcane usage is back, there is a culture of it, and it is not insignificant nor marginalised.. nor should it be. To view the night elves as some anti arcane, forest only, city hating group. It's just not the case. The way I see this race is a race that has cities and temples in forests, that arcane and nature are a core part and religion underpins both.


    But you admit, the arcane is part of their culture,
    no one is denying this, your walls of text make us thing you are trying to force us. You write 3 paragraphs where one sentence was sufficient.

    More on this, but I think this is the in the right direction they are going with, and I admit, it is a new culture and cannot be called an arcane one (though that isnt what I was trying to say), but the arcane remains are core part of them, it's just that arcane practice isnt culture wise, just limited to the highborne group atm. But that group is not marginal, nor irrelevant and represents a core part of their identity that hasn't faded or disappeared just because the darnassians had to ban the arcane during the long vigil.

    In addition, that arcane group is not useless or noobs, they are highly talented, have the the same level of arcane talent of the race in the height of its pre sundering arcane might, which you see the nightborne atm especially led by the shen'dralar - which means all the cool stuff they did with the arcane pre sundering can be done again, and more, because this group continued arcanelearning and were the group that handled the Queen's wonder projects, so if blizzard wanted, the current darnassian highborne group could really bring back a lot of the fancy cool arcane wonders part of the race in the pre sundering era, while the druids show the cool nature stuff and the priestess order the rockstar badass female warriors.


    Well I hope they do,it shouldnt be a tall order
    and more paragraphs on your power fantasy. We get it, you want them to be amazing, you don’t have to write paragraphs repeating it, cos most of us have seen it before. Maybe some new person coming would appreciate it.

    Why not write a blog or do a video, throw some pictures and Nelf fans can join your cult. Blizzard doesn’t care as much as you do. Why don’t you go apply to them and write for their lore team or creative development on team Warcraft

  18. #18
    @EnigmAddict @Combatbulter @Verdugo Why are you all suddenly having a go at me for writing a lot in a topic I said was a long post, and for having some passion for the part of the game?

    I would think that you lot of all people appreciate others having opinions and taking their time to write posts, but maybe Night elves aren't your passion or this is nothing new, or not really that important to you, - if so fine, but don't lead me on.

    WTB some fans that actually care about night elves

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    @EnigmAddict @Combatbulter @Verdugo Why are you all suddenly having a go at me for writing a lot in a topic I said was a long post, and for having some passion for the part of the game?

    I would think that you lot of all people appreciate others having opinions and taking their time to write posts, but maybe Night elves aren't your passion or this is nothing new, or not really that important to you, - if so fine, but don't lead me on.

    WTB some fans that actually care about night elves
    For me it isn't something personal I just don't feel like writing/reading so much on this topic. You tend to cram so much in your posts, much of it redundant and I don't have the patience to read and respond in the same manner right now that is all there is to it.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmAddict View Post
    and more paragraphs on your power fantasy. We get it, you want them to be amazing, you don’t have to write paragraphs repeating it, cos most of us have seen it before. Maybe some new person coming would appreciate it.
    Power fantasies aren't a bad thing - it's what people get excited over. but I hardly think night elven highborne/arcane group building cool stuff like the lore desrcirbes they did in the pre-sundering era is a power fantasy.

    I just think much of the stuff the night elves were written to have was cool and attractive - chief amongst them was immortality and centred around this mysterious Well of arcane power. other stuffwas this incredible civliation full of wonders, and this power that both boosted natue and incredible things.

    Weh you remove that from them, athen show them just in forests and ruins a shadow of themselves - all it does is make you wish for them to be like how they use to be. That's not a power fantasy - not with incredible stuff around and seen for races like the Draenei, the blood elves, the Zandalari and the humans.

    this is the stuff you go cool ! Shouldn't surprise you I would like tosee that stuff in some measure. Loved Suramar, and that's a proper night elf city fitting all the incredible descriptions, now htat is what i'd like to see the night elves in for a city after all the years of ruins and rubble. A forest area like Val'sharah, and an urban land like Azsuna, - they captured it very well with the broken isles, how disappointing that the night elves don't have that as a home or similar in kalimdor.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    For me it isn't something personal I just don't feel like writing/reading so much on this topic. You tend to cram so much in your posts, much of it redundant and I don't have the patience to read and respond in the same manner right now that is all there is to it.
    There is a lot there, but it's there to give all the examples. I don't just stop at one or two, but tend to give as much as I can.. to be as comprehensive as possible, to make my point, but it just looksl ike none of you read it, so I end up respondingrepeating the same things - please just read it. youd on't have to agree withal of it, but there are valid points that would save the back and forth.

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