1. #9821
    "evidence" is more or less people with two (or more accounts) when the first acc is rated (much) lower than the newer accounts and the newer accounts dont fall much in sr

  2. #9822
    Quote Originally Posted by rarhyx View Post
    "evidence" is more or less people with two (or more accounts) when the first acc is rated (much) lower than the newer accounts and the newer accounts dont fall much in sr
    I have come to be vividly irritated by this self serving, toxic, "victim" propaganda.

    I have never heard of "anchor" stats before, and as I've posted in this thread before: I have accounts in multiple ranks and have played them to my correct rank.

    RIGHT NOW I have an account in gold, an account in diamond an account in masters and an account in gm.

    I can only play a couple of heroes where my high rated acc is and it takes considerable effort to keep my masters one where it is on a hero I'm worse with.

    I have done the Xrank to Xrank challenge several times just to see and frankly there is no such thing as elo hell, the matchmaking system is not perfect but it is good enough.

    The real "elo hell" is any game where some hardstuck asshole is tilting everyone on his/her team every game with just enough gamesense to see their team's mistakes, but not their own and without the talent to climb, whether this asshole is in bronze, silver, gold, plat, diamond, m or gm.

  3. #9823
    Quote Originally Posted by rarhyx View Post
    "evidence" is more or less people with two (or more accounts) when the first acc is rated (much) lower than the newer accounts and the newer accounts dont fall much in sr
    Yes, so show me the evidence.

    For sure I will concede that you can have instances wherein you buy a second account and place higher, one of my alt accounts placed pretty much the same as my main despite swapping over to DPS roles (so we can argue here that is in essence placing higher, since I had 0 experience playing DPS and nonetheless played in the same SR bracket). But statistically, that's absolutely fine. Low games played, high variance in SR. Accuracy is unknown, probably low. Can't tell what that really means 'til you've played a bunch more games and see how your SR fluctuates, and compare that with your main.

    Also they provide 0 evidence for anchor stats, but imply somehow that these cause you to remain at lower SR. How? Does it limit the pool of people you can play against, somehow making your games harder? That's the only way that makes sense. Unless it's taken into account by the performance-based SR, and causing you to earn less SR per win, in which case all that does it make it slightly harder to climb.

    Maybe one day we'll have someone assert that matchmaking is broken who also understands basic statistics, and evidence-based arguments.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Thirza View Post
    snip
    I know right, he mentions there exist these anchor stats but gives 0 evidence and doesn't even tell us what they are. Like, what? Am I supposed to just take your word on it, even though you've only made this video in a self-serving hope to get views from people who scream "MY SR SHOULD BE HIGHER MY TEAM IS TRASH REEEE, NOW SOMEONE ON YOUTUBE AGREES WITH ME."

    I partly disagree with your assertion that there does not exist elo hell though, I am 100% convinced 2750-3000 is fucking trash. There's a fairly steep skill difference (Relative to platchat ofc) and you also get such a wide variety of players, some have great mech skills and 0 gamesense, then vice versa and anything in between. You also have a quite a peak in toxicity from my experience, and also some people who think they know the perfect comp and strat and tilt off the edge of the world if you don't listen to them or disagree with a thing they've said.

    I also think this particular bracket contributes to everyone's entitled to SR attitude and issues with the matchmaking, getting through this bracket without investing loads of time into becoming both better, and able to play consistently well is a fucking ballache.

    But yeah, for sure OW MMR ladder is not perfect but I have yet to see any evidence suggesting your ability is not approximately related to your SR, you don't see trash players in GM and you don't see GMs/Masters players hardstuck plat. It just doesn't happen.

  4. #9824
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thirza View Post
    Why are people just casually fine with reaper and pharah being pitifully underpowered.
    Pharah does okay at OWL level, while Reaper has basically no complexity to his kit to offer any real skill curve; so buffs tend to break him at low levels while never offering anything at higher brackets.

  5. #9825
    Quote Originally Posted by Kharadin View Post
    I also think this particular bracket contributes to everyone's entitled to SR attitude and issues with the matchmaking, getting through this bracket without investing loads of time into becoming both better, and able to play consistently well is a fucking ballache.
    Get good at shotcalling in a cheerful bubbly manner, cruise right out of plat imo.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Pharah does okay at OWL level while Reaper has basically no complexity to his kit to offer any real skill curve; so buffs tend to break him at low levels while never offering anything at higher brackets.
    Any hero that needs to be hard pocketed and res'd constantly is underpowered/broken.

    If anything OWL confirms my assertions, as for reaper, it wouldn't take much effort to make him not useless, just make him require more aim but have a higher payoff, make the head and side to side hitboxes less ridiculous, and make the footsteps silent. You have to start a fight point blank to win against a decent player, having such loud clompers is just a no go.

  6. #9826
    Quote Originally Posted by Thirza View Post
    Get good at shotcalling in a cheerful bubbly manner, cruise right out of plat imo.
    Funnily enough I have been trying that out with a friend of mine the last few days, and we've been on a 12-game win streak so far. I just can't quite manage it when I am solo.

  7. #9827
    Quote Originally Posted by Kharadin View Post
    Funnily enough I have been trying that out with a friend of mine the last few days, and we've been on a 12-game win streak so far. I just can't quite manage it when I am solo.
    That is what it takes unless you have the talent to carry(non stop getting eliminations by yourself with 0 aid.)

  8. #9828
    Quote Originally Posted by Kharadin View Post
    Yes, so show me the evidence.

    For sure I will concede that you can have instances wherein you buy a second account and place higher, one of my alt accounts placed pretty much the same as my main despite swapping over to DPS roles (so we can argue here that is in essence placing higher, since I had 0 experience playing DPS and nonetheless played in the same SR bracket). But statistically, that's absolutely fine. Low games played, high variance in SR. Accuracy is unknown, probably low. Can't tell what that really means 'til you've played a bunch more games and see how your SR fluctuates, and compare that with your main.

    Also they provide 0 evidence for anchor stats, but imply somehow that these cause you to remain at lower SR. How? Does it limit the pool of people you can play against, somehow making your games harder? That's the only way that makes sense. Unless it's taken into account by the performance-based SR, and causing you to earn less SR per win, in which case all that does it make it slightly harder to climb.

    Maybe one day we'll have someone assert that matchmaking is broken who also understands basic statistics, and evidence-based arguments.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I know right, he mentions there exist these anchor stats but gives 0 evidence and doesn't even tell us what they are. Like, what? Am I supposed to just take your word on it, even though you've only made this video in a self-serving hope to get views from people who scream "MY SR SHOULD BE HIGHER MY TEAM IS TRASH REEEE, NOW SOMEONE ON YOUTUBE AGREES WITH ME."

    I partly disagree with your assertion that there does not exist elo hell though, I am 100% convinced 2750-3000 is fucking trash. There's a fairly steep skill difference (Relative to platchat ofc) and you also get such a wide variety of players, some have great mech skills and 0 gamesense, then vice versa and anything in between. You also have a quite a peak in toxicity from my experience, and also some people who think they know the perfect comp and strat and tilt off the edge of the world if you don't listen to them or disagree with a thing they've said.

    I also think this particular bracket contributes to everyone's entitled to SR attitude and issues with the matchmaking, getting through this bracket without investing loads of time into becoming both better, and able to play consistently well is a fucking ballache.

    But yeah, for sure OW MMR ladder is not perfect but I have yet to see any evidence suggesting your ability is not approximately related to your SR, you don't see trash players in GM and you don't see GMs/Masters players hardstuck plat. It just doesn't happen.
    Except your arguement against their zero evidence also consists of zero evidence. You, as well as the video maker, aren’t showing hard proof one way or the other.
    As far as the video goes, I can only guess they are basing this on previous things that Blizzard has stated with placement matches combined with how it keeps track of your games vs if you quit playing for a while it becomes less certain of where you belong. That last part hints that it keeps track over a certain amount of time instead of just basing a game to game basis based on an unknown algorithm of how you played with X character vs how others play with X character in the same rank. That last point also had flaws brought up by Ragtagg when he showed a good example of him playing Orissa and someone else playing Bastion and that Bastion takes damage away from Orissa which makes his Orissa playtime less than another Orissa player’s that doesn’t have a Bastion (or someone that can do major damage over a fight).
    I’m not saying the video maker is correct because I, like you and Thirza, don’t really know as Blizzard has only given us pieces of information here and there, with some people saying it works fine and others saying it doesn’t.
    I don’t complain about my rank, I figure I’m an average player and I am sitting around 2500-2700, but I will state that I don’t like Blizzard’s way of handling the ranking system as it’s (a) hidden from people how it really works, and (b) prefer ladder systems as that in turn makes people more focused on what would win a match vs what makes them rank up better on a personal level vs team play.

  9. #9829
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    Except your arguement against their zero evidence also consists of zero evidence. You, as well as the video maker, aren’t showing hard proof one way or the other.
    As far as the video goes, I can only guess they are basing this on previous things that Blizzard has stated with placement matches combined with how it keeps track of your games vs if you quit playing for a while it becomes less certain of where you belong. That last part hints that it keeps track over a certain amount of time instead of just basing a game to game basis based on an unknown algorithm of how you played with X character vs how others play with X character in the same rank. That last point also had flaws brought up by Ragtagg when he showed a good example of him playing Orissa and someone else playing Bastion and that Bastion takes damage away from Orissa which makes his Orissa playtime less than another Orissa player’s that doesn’t have a Bastion (or someone that can do major damage over a fight).
    I’m not saying the video maker is correct because I, like you and Thirza, don’t really know as Blizzard has only given us pieces of information here and there, with some people saying it works fine and others saying it doesn’t.
    I don’t complain about my rank, I figure I’m an average player and I am sitting around 2500-2700, but I will state that I don’t like Blizzard’s way of handling the ranking system as it’s (a) hidden from people how it really works, and (b) prefer ladder systems as that in turn makes people more focused on what would win a match vs what makes them rank up better on a personal level vs team play.
    Except my argument is backed up by all bad players having a low SR, average players being average and good players having a high SR. Sure, you can argue we don't know the ins and outs of the system and how that's not good, mostly because it gives birth to crazy theories like the video above, but it all boils down to if you win your SR goes up, if you lose it goes down, and otherwise you are matched to people approximately at your SR. I really don't understand the issue with this.

  10. #9830
    Quote Originally Posted by Kharadin View Post
    Except my argument is backed up by all bad players having a low SR, average players being average and good players having a high SR. Sure, you can argue we don't know the ins and outs of the system and how that's not good, mostly because it gives birth to crazy theories like the video above, but it all boils down to if you win your SR goes up, if you lose it goes down, and otherwise you are matched to people approximately at your SR. I really don't understand the issue with this.
    There are huge problems with the rating system. Huge differences in skill between people on the same rating. If I could play with 5 copies of myself, I'd go higher than I ever could by playing solo in this matchmaking system due to this difference in skill at the same ratings.

  11. #9831
    Comments like those make me want to pilot your accounts to GM so I can watch it fall right back to where it belongs, but I know you would just use it as fuel and lie to people, saying look where I peaked.

  12. #9832
    Quote Originally Posted by Kharadin View Post
    Except my argument is backed up by all bad players having a low SR, average players being average and good players having a high SR. Sure, you can argue we don't know the ins and outs of the system and how that's not good, mostly because it gives birth to crazy theories like the video above, but it all boils down to if you win your SR goes up, if you lose it goes down, and otherwise you are matched to people approximately at your SR. I really don't understand the issue with this.
    Except we don’t know we are matched with people at our exact SR. Blizzard actually had to change how the matchmaking worked from people grouping up not to long ago because of how it influenced the system.
    Someone even had a video posted months ago about a theory of how the system works against you. Just to summarize, the theory is that the game determines your SR based at a set time. As you move away from it, the system starts to stack the odds against you by calculating how your wins:losses is going vs someone else who might be on a downward streak and someone who goes on a winning streak. Such as, if you are supposed to be mid plat based on your play style, if you go on a lucky streak and start moving out of plat, the game starts finding players that have been losing/falling in SR and puts them with you while finding players on a winning/climbing streak and puts them against you. This is all an attempt to keep you where the system believes you belong based on stats of how much you heal, damage, K ratio vs others in your rank. The idea is that even though you are winning your games and you should continue in a fair system, the system itself is not fair and tried to stack the deck against you to keep you where it believes you belong.
    This is almost supported by the whole idea of what you and others say: get good with 1-3 characters that you excel with and skip the team play aspect to climb.
    All that aside, I’m not trying to get into an arguement of SR being good or bad. I’m just pointing out that while the video might be completely wrong, there’s some merit to the ideas behind it that could be considered based on Blizzard’s own posts about the system.
    I also wanted to point out that demanding evidence while posting none of your own to refute the claim is just as baseless as the video’s claims. The video made a hypothesis and gave reasons for why they believe that is true. You did the same based on thinking that everyone is where they are supposed to be. That said, you also countered yourself by saying you have many different accounts in different rankings, meaning you contribute to a skewing in SR.
    Last edited by Eapoe; 2019-06-09 at 02:28 AM.

  13. #9833
    The difference is obvious.

    That is motive, there is nothing to be gained by saying "this is my experience, I probably have too much in this game, but based on it I believe the SR system is fine."

    Opposed to telling people exactly what they want to hear, offering vindication, for views.. so much motive.

  14. #9834
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    snip
    Can you not check the SR of your opponents? Do you not see the average SR of each team before the beginning the game?
    I don't buy into the whole matchmaking stacking odds against you, I don't find games become more difficult as SR goes up beyond the fact that people are getting slightly better. I don't find games so heavily stacked against me that I have to find another excuse for losing other than "I didn't play well enough".

    I have two accounts, one for learning heroes and one for playing my mains, they're both pretty similar in SR except my alt drops a little every time I pick up a new hero but no more than 2-300 SR at which point games become pretty easy.

    I guess I don't really understand your argument except as some theory that the MMR system is trying to put players in some SR bracket, which I don't agree with.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jinro View Post
    There are huge problems with the rating system. Huge differences in skill between people on the same rating. If I could play with 5 copies of myself, I'd go higher than I ever could by playing solo in this matchmaking system due to this difference in skill at the same ratings.
    I don't agree, I see lots of difference in the skills of players at plat for sure, e.g. some have very good mechanics but zero awareness and gamesense, and the opposite and whatever in between, but I generally don't agree that people do not belong in the rank that I see them, except the odd smurf and perhaps the odd guy having a trash day (but that happens to us all, for sure).

    And yeah, I'd skyrocket if I played with 5 copies of myself, I'm sure some t500 players would hold entirely the top 6 spots if they could 6 stack with themselves but that's not the game and that would be a distinct advantage lol. I don't see how that's relevant at all.

  15. #9835
    Quote Originally Posted by Kharadin View Post
    I don't agree, I see lots of difference in the skills of players at plat for sure, e.g. some have very good mechanics but zero awareness and gamesense, and the opposite and whatever in between, but I generally don't agree that people do not belong in the rank that I see them, except the odd smurf and perhaps the odd guy having a trash day (but that happens to us all, for sure).
    I see it every time I play. The SR system doesn't work. I'm good at the game but I'm not as good as those playing in the top, why should I be faced off against people at the top? Why can they even drop down to my rating(I'm at masters)? It's not fun when you get queued against them, especially not if they're in a stack. It's the most unfun games I've ever played. I don't want to be put against someone that's that much better than me, it's not fun. Why can we even be facing off against each other? I've just started leaving games if I see them on the opposing team because I'm playing to have fun, not to get wrecked because the SR system is dogshit. I'd rather spend that time on something else than play against people we won't beat.

    Then I see people who really should be in diamond or maybe even platinum. Why can they get to my rating?

    The rating fluctuations are just too big for it to be a working system. If it worked, you shouldn't see such differences as we currently do on the same SR. That difference exist because of the rating fluctuations. When you can go up/down 300 or even more in a week, there's something iffy with it.
    Last edited by Freighter; 2019-06-09 at 12:47 PM.

  16. #9836
    How are my games going? Oh, I lost 400 SR in a day.

    Support main here. Do my best to counter-pick, try to co-ordinate with my team and work together, and pick supports that make sense in certain situations.

    Then people go in 1 by 1 and feed. The Genji waits all game for a dragonblade (which he pops and gets instantly stunned and killed, by the way).

    So yeah. That's how my games are going. This was after trying both solo queue and group finder. I even looked at the people's profiles and the amount of hours they had as their heroes didn't relate to what I saw them doing in my matches.

  17. #9837
    Quote Originally Posted by Kharadin View Post
    Can you not check the SR of your opponents? Do you not see the average SR of each team before the beginning the game?
    I don't buy into the whole matchmaking stacking odds against you, I don't find games become more difficult as SR goes up beyond the fact that people are getting slightly better. I don't find games so heavily stacked against me that I have to find another excuse for losing other than "I didn't play well enough".

    I have two accounts, one for learning heroes and one for playing my mains, they're both pretty similar in SR except my alt drops a little every time I pick up a new hero but no more than 2-300 SR at which point games become pretty easy.

    I guess I don't really understand your argument except as some theory that the MMR system is trying to put players in some SR bracket, which I don't agree with.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I don't agree, I see lots of difference in the skills of players at plat for sure, e.g. some have very good mechanics but zero awareness and gamesense, and the opposite and whatever in between, but I generally don't agree that people do not belong in the rank that I see them, except the odd smurf and perhaps the odd guy having a trash day (but that happens to us all, for sure).

    And yeah, I'd skyrocket if I played with 5 copies of myself, I'm sure some t500 players would hold entirely the top 6 spots if they could 6 stack with themselves but that's not the game and that would be a distinct advantage lol. I don't see how that's relevant at all.
    You’re now arguing something that was never stated. I didn’t state the SR isn’t similar, I stated that in the video of SR counter balancing it takes people on a winning streak and places them against you and puts people on a losing streak with you if you start climbing out of your bracket the game calculates for you. The reverse is also true if you fall too far from it. The idea is that while the game calculates where it thinks you should be, there is an anchor (read: beginning) point where the calculation starts.
    That’s also not what you said about your alt accounts earlier. You stated you have multiple alt accounts in different brackets because that’s where you want them at. So you are now changing your argument and being shown as a liar or I am mistaking you for someone else and I apologize.
    As I’ve also stated, these aren’t my arguments, they are other people’s that I am bringing up while discussing that they are going by Blizzard’s own posts and explanations, or lack thereof, to show how the system isn’t some amazingly accurate working machine that some people praise it as. Even Ragtagg, one of the better known YouTube personalities and good players of the game expressed issues with how Blizz calculates SR based on a Blizzard post about it.
    As for the last part of your post, SR bracket no. SR placement yes. Blizzard even states this themselves by stating they have a system that calculates your SR and MMR based on how you play. They even state how accurate they believe it is. That one sentence alone shows that the system works by calculating where you should be and adjusts how much you gain or lose around it, which furthers the concept others have made about the system possibly doing things by putting you with people that are gaining or losing themselves.
    I’ve stated I don’t know if these things are true nor do I put 100% faith in the accuracy of the comments. I have stated that they do bring up decent concerns about the system.

  18. #9838
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    You’re now arguing something that was never stated. I didn’t state the SR isn’t similar, I stated that in the video of SR counter balancing it takes people on a winning streak and places them against you and puts people on a losing streak with you if you start climbing out of your bracket the game calculates for you. The reverse is also true if you fall too far from it. The idea is that while the game calculates where it thinks you should be, there is an anchor (read: beginning) point where the calculation starts.
    That’s also not what you said about your alt accounts earlier. You stated you have multiple alt accounts in different brackets because that’s where you want them at. So you are now changing your argument and being shown as a liar or I am mistaking you for someone else and I apologize.
    As I’ve also stated, these aren’t my arguments, they are other people’s that I am bringing up while discussing that they are going by Blizzard’s own posts and explanations, or lack thereof, to show how the system isn’t some amazingly accurate working machine that some people praise it as. Even Ragtagg, one of the better known YouTube personalities and good players of the game expressed issues with how Blizz calculates SR based on a Blizzard post about it.
    As for the last part of your post, SR bracket no. SR placement yes. Blizzard even states this themselves by stating they have a system that calculates your SR and MMR based on how you play. They even state how accurate they believe it is. That one sentence alone shows that the system works by calculating where you should be and adjusts how much you gain or lose around it, which furthers the concept others have made about the system possibly doing things by putting you with people that are gaining or losing themselves.
    I’ve stated I don’t know if these things are true nor do I put 100% faith in the accuracy of the comments. I have stated that they do bring up decent concerns about the system.
    Again, I see no evidence for this affect. Your claims, videos claims, whatever, all I'm seeing is baseless complaints.

    Yes, you are mistaking me for someone else. Probably Thirza, I believe he mentioned he had alts to play with friends.

    You can state/regurgitate these complaints and concerns as much as you want, and poke holes in Blizzard's half-explanation of them as much as you want (although given they're the ones with the data to hand, I'm inclined to trust them if they say the system works, especially given my experience). But I have yet to see any such evidence that people who are good can't climb, or people who are bad failing to drop due to this probably-not-existing set of anchor stats.

    One day one of you SR conspiracy theorists will come up with some evidence and I might actually die of shock.

  19. #9839
    I have asked time and again for the people who think they are trapped in elo hell to post their SR, what they think their SR should be and their gameplay.

    They never do.

    I wonder why.

  20. #9840
    Quote Originally Posted by Thirza View Post
    I have asked time and again for the people who think they are trapped in elo hell to post their SR, what they think their SR should be and their gameplay.

    They never do.

    I wonder why.
    Who are you talking about? And what post are you responding to?

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