Do you think Classic will Overtake Retail?

[glowpipe]

If Twitch is anything to go by, it already has.

So classic is better then retail because classic, which is fresh, beta is still rather new, people have been waiting for it for a long time has abit more viewers now then retail. which is in sorta a content draught, 2-3 weeks from a new patch, every raid cleared on mythic, has been out for months.

Lets compare classic beta again with retails viewers when eternal palace is coming out yeah ? when patch 8.2 is coming out yeah. Or maybe thats unfair for you cause its "new" and now the beta is "old" ?

[Forogil]

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...8835940#post-3
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards...craft/58373978

What is your point?

Blizzard's official name for 25-man in Wrath was originally "heroic"; some used it - most didn't. Linking some random poster from years afterwards doesn't change that fact.

Ulduar was released in 2009; you link to people from 2017 and people discussing Cata 10/25-man.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards...craft/63062666

That was from 6 years ago, whereas it was 10 years since Ulduar released. How is that in any way relevant?

And remember that one of the hard-modes in Ulduar is listed as one of the raid-encounters that took the longest to kill.

So, the conclusion remain: you think raids should be like Ulduar - but you have given every indication that you didn't raid when Ulduar was current contents. That's some messed up nostalgia.
And as previously stated only Hodir is a pure dps check, even if XT and Thorim require high dps to activate hard mode the fight then changes - so in some cases you had to hold off dps to not activate hard mode.

[Alkizon]

Forogil
--- snip ---

I gave you links to wowwiki, there are interpreted differences that you can't understand. Threads which you "misunderstand" discuss not only Cata, but specifically Ulduar too. Wrath already had heroic mode (Ulduar was the last without it, which is actually wowwiki reflected). Wowhead comment speaks directly about this. Something with your memory has become?

Classic hard mods never were current "harder mods" (= heroic mode, or whatever else) neither in organization nor in perception. "You can not set the boss encounter to Hard mode from the user interface."

Сhanges to which you're trying to refer occurred much later of discussed event in the links, although these changes didn't significantly change stuff much.

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Forogil
So, the conclusion remain: you think raids should be like Ulduar - but you have given every indication that you didn't raid when Ulduar was current contents. That's some messed up nostalgia.
And as previously stated only Hodir is a pure dps check, even if XT and Thorim require high dps to activate hard mode the fight then changes - so in some cases you had to hold off dps to not activate hard mode.

And here you are already becoming "personal" and "progress" stuff that is considered on forums for absence of normal argumentation. What is the difference in my personal progress (which I have never mentioned by the way)? We're talking about general system and approach to dungeons organization (raid are just bigger and harder dungeons, next cycle of content stages), organization of normal flow of content along with progress. Don't forget about that. I won't let you dodge it.

[Forogil]

I gave you links to wowwiki, there are interpreted differences that you can't understand.

I can understand them, since I was there.

Can you admit that the different modes, e.g. 10-man and 25-man Ulduar gave different loot? In contrast to the wiki-page you linked that reflected the legion merging of them.

And activating hard-mode (only one hard-mode in Ulduar was pure dps check) increased both the difficulty with adding new mechanics, and the level of the loot. However, even if hard-mode activation was fun it was a gimmick - and they ran out of ideas.

That means that after clearing you could go back and re-clear again on a higher difficulty level - exactly as today.

You have incorrectly stated that:

Technically, it was the same mode, just devs didn't yet have flexible raid mechanism.

Threads which yuo "misunderstand" discuss not only Cata, but specifically Ulduar too.

They are people discussing Ulduar years afterwards and thus they care about the color of the loot for transmog purposes, not the level.

My memory is working - and I don't see any indication that you have a memory of Ulduar as current contents.

If you only had missed 25-man being called "heroic" that would be normal, since it was primarily an official name that players didn't use; but thinking it was the same mode is beyond that. And linking to discussions during Cata is just...

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What is the difference in my personal progress (which I have never mentioned by the way)? We're talking about general system and approach to dungeons organization (raid are just bigger and harder dungeons, next cycle of content stages), organization of normal flow of content along with progress. Don't forget about that. I won't let you dodge it.

It's one thing to reminisce about the good old days.

But your statements give every indication that you weren't there - and thus you are misunderstanding the general system, and praising something that never existed.

As for dungeons, not raids, the current approach has a large number of advantages compared to the ones during Wrath - as you actually run all dungeons for loot that drops in the dungeons during the expansion.

[msdos]

I'll put it this way: I'm actually anticipating playing classic. I'm looking at gear and zones and old guides and stuff. I've completely forgotten about BFA already, other than the Frost buffs that just came for DKs (I don't even play Frost).

I'll resub for 8.2, complete the new dungeon and if my guild raids, raid with them until people stop showing up, then unsub again. It's been like this since BFA launch.

[Alkizon]

And activating hard-mode (which only in one case in Ulduar was a pure dps-check) increased both the difficulty with adding new mechanics, and the level of the loot. However, even if hard-mode activation was fun it was a gimmick - and they ran out of ideas.

It doesn't change "healthy" design approach, it doesn't change the system, which exactly we're talking about, no? Same raid, same content (= same requirements) FOR EVERYONE, without any direct concessions.

As for dungeons, not raids, the current approach has a large number of advantages compared to the ones during Wrath - as you actually run all dungeons for loot that drops in the dungeons during the expansion.

About forge items/PL(scaling/catch-up) and loot rolling around (albeit $hitty) like from cornucopia, we can talk to you separately. Better don't even remember about it.

---

But your statements give every indication that you weren't there

^

First login: January 2007
Last login: 30 of April 2015
(5 characters)

Yeah, sure Ok, not my quote:

Hard mode, not to be confused with heroic mode, refers to the increase in difficulty of a raid boss encounter resulting in increased rewards and/or achievements. This is accomplished by doing or not doing certain things that increase the difficulty of the boss fight. You can not set the boss encounter to Hard mode from the user interface.

Agreed! Nothing in WotLK raiding even comes close to the scope and epic feel of Ulduar. The Hard Mode design based on OS+1,2 3 design really shined, providing more challenging, scalable and ultimately different encounters as opposed to dull "Switch to heroic for the boss to have more HP and retain different phase abilities". Ulduar was as well laced with different non-hm related achievements

Blizzard ("in their excessive care") hasn't yet had time to make design changes that divide people into retards and minmax/elitists. One and the same requirements (but they exists!) in obtaining content (which also being progress!) for everyone.

Just admit that you don't like such system (which, if it were still in the game, you would take for granted), or simply because of special obstinacy. Everything is very simple: "that" how it was, but "this" how it became, they're different.

---

Also for another theme of design aspect:

I have found that one of the really great things about this instance, is the trash mob fights. Around almost every corner you will find different trash mobs, with unique abilities that sometimes require innovative strategies to defeat. It really does make grinding the trash in between boss fights more worthwhile.

[korijenkins]

Somebody, give this man a beer.

Although, I must say I liked Wildstar combat... but not its extremely hardcore approach.

Sadly he's omitting why people quit MMOs all together. They began to stop appealing to the RPG crowd and tried to appeal to the general market. If the standard for measuring this involves, lets say, a ruler, with Divinity Original Sin on one end, and Destiny 2 on the other, Vanilla-Wrath WoW was closer to Divinity on that ruler, whereas WoD-Present is closer to Destiny 2.

Building a character is basically not a thing anymore. You're handed almost everything with minimal effort, because apparently the journey means nothing, and the "journey" need only encompass the questing experience. No class quests, no in-depth talent system, just the cookie cutter. That's only really 1 example, and the problem extends past WoW as well.

Wildstar is an enigma, it tried to exist on the Divinity side of the ruler, but ended up failing anyway. The character building and depth was all there for that game, but the questing experience was absolutely mind-numbing. Every environment felt the same, and none of the characters were likable. Gear also felt very unimportant in that game.

GW2 retains a lot of things on the "Divinity side" with detailed talent systems and customization, but falters with it's rather high system requirements, as well as the poor optimization and limited team.

Rift went to shit a few years back, but was an overall good game until that happened. I don't play it, so I could never pinpoint the moment it occurred.

SWTOR nearly died trying to exist as a competitor to WoW and switched to a solo-narrative style game, which it is much more enjoyable as.

It's a bit unfair to point to data that says "everyone quit mmos" without acknowledging that most mmos abandoned the tenets that made WoW popular in the first place, never had them to begin with, or were fundamentally flawed from day 1. The genre is MMORPG, and the RPG part of that was completely sucked out, or at least in the case of WoW, replaced with quite literal RP in the form of garrisons and class halls.

[BlueRemedy]

For a little while, at least for the western userbase I think classic will be a big deal for a couple months.

I bet they're hoping it'll cause some returning people to migrate over to the main game, wouldn't be surprised to start seeing incentives and marketing for perks.

[huth]

Technically, it was the same mode, just devs didn't yet have flexible raid mechanism.

No, it wasn't. 10man was deliberately tuned to be easier than 25 in WotLK and dropped different loot, and they didn't split up size and difficulty until after Ulduar.
Ulduar, you only had two options: You went in on Normal with 10, or on Heroic with 25.

Hard modes only added a single drop to each boss of higher quality. The rest of the loot remained unchanged.

[Alkizon]

replaced with quite literal RP in the form of garrisons and class halls.

Sadly, even this part was killed for some of us by the fact that they took our characters and gave (I omit obscene words) "unpleasant" and "unfamiliar" to replace them without possibility of at least somehow independently controlling it (we lost our characters, those who are dear to us perhaps most of all in this game, those who controlled last connection between, nothing left, connection was lost). I understand that you didn’t mean it, but this was my direct reason for leaving the game, the rest was more perceived as “collateral damage”.

Hard modes only added a single drop to each boss of higher quality. The rest of the loot remained unchanged.

That was the point I referred when talked about "that" system. I just wondered how much time person would need to understand this... but he didn't

[Forogil]

It doesn't change "healthy" design approach, it doesn't change the system, which exactly we're talking about, no? Same raid, same content (= same requirements) FOR EVERYONE, without any direct concessions.

Similar contents with different difficulty, different loot (and other rewards), and no additional requirements (e.g. attunements), - i.e., the same as today - except for the forging and bonus-loot.

Instead Wrath had badges, weekly raid-boss quests, etc. Both variants are added to give you a possible reward for clearing contents after you have gotten the normal loot.

Yeah, sure Ok, not my quote:

That's certain since your quotes are:

Technically, it was the same mode, just devs didn't yet have flexible raid mechanism.

And I really like the link to the legion-version below:

Ulduar still have only 1 difficulty (players are free to complicate it themselves

I don't care whether you played before Wrath and after; I just note that your statements give every indication that you didn't do Ulduar when it was current contents.

As for the distinction between selecting in game and in interface: do you mean that everything would be fine if they replaced the mode selector by a big red button in game - similarly as m+ is activated by clicking on an in-game item?

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No, it wasn't. 10man was deliberately tuned to be easier than 25 in WotLK and dropped different loot, and they didn't split up size and difficulty until after Ulduar.
Ulduar, you only had two options: You went in on Normal with 10, or on Heroic with 25.

Hard modes only added a single drop to each boss of higher quality. The rest of the loot remained unchanged.

As far I recall the ones with more than two settings (FL, Yogg, council, and Freya) had more variations so it cannot just have been one extra item - maybe just more badges (in addition to the mount from Yogg); whereas I know that OS had additional items for both 1 drake and 2 drakes.

[Has lost its way]

I think for BFA it will. Afterwards I think it will be a coin flip.

[Alkizon]

As for the distinction between selecting in game and in interface: do you mean that everything would be fine if they replaced the mode selector by a big red button in game - similarly as m+ is activated by clicking on an in-game item?

Red button isn't content: stories, dialogues, tasks/quests, "new locations with mobs with better loot for progress" are content. It's clear that Ulduar had beginnings of this system, and not a perfectly formed design, but they threw it in a favor of “heroic mods” and made a big mistake.

...but it was primarily about the division of players, about the division of requirements (severely understating the bar) in obtaining content (I don’t even want to remember about how new mechanic detrimental growth of attributes rate and overlap content). As for forge-items/M+, this is a separate fail story.

ps. I see no reason to continue, since we not only deviate from the topic, but also draw even more forces into it. Two pages is enough I suppose.

As an excuses for topic itself: question interests me very little. Just wait and see, why bother, we're not fortune tellers.

[Cracked]

Wildstar is an enigma, it tried to exist on the Divinity side of the ruler, but ended up failing anyway. The character building and depth was all there for that game, but the questing experience was absolutely mind-numbing. Every environment felt the same, and none of the characters were likable. Gear also felt very unimportant in that game.

Let me tell you why I've never even bothered trying the game. Back when it was the new hype, I took a look at one of the trailers. It was some annoying child-like character inside a spaceship talking about how everything is great and what not. At that point, my brain instantly likened Wildstar to a game for 8 year olds. I didn't need to know the systems, the lore, anything. All I needed to know was in that trailer, the setting wasn't for me. Add to that the fact that mixing sci-fi and fantasy is big no-no in my eyes and there. Compare that to the WoW cinematic or even to this amateurish video of WoW alpha https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnM1q6lpOUY for god's sake.

So actually being a hardcore audience that looked for serious games, Wildstar came across as extremely unserious.

[Alkizon]

Let me tell you why I've never even bothered trying the game. Back when it was the new hype, I took a look at one of the trailers. It was some annoying child-like character inside a spaceship talking about how everything is great and what not. At that point, my brain instantly likened Wildstar to a game for 8 year olds. I didn't need to know the systems, the lore, anything. All I needed to know was in that trailer, the setting wasn't for me. Add to that the fact that mixing sci-fi and fantasy is big no-no in my eyes and there. Compare that to the WoW cinematic or even to this amateurish video of WoW alpha https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnM1q6lpOUY for god's sake.

So actually being a hardcore audience that looked for serious games, Wildstar came across as extremely unserious.

Man! I had absolutely same impression/perception, and when Blizzard released new character models (again, you didn't mean it for sure, but as a personal complement), I had a very strong deja vu, after which I stopped watching WoW game engine videos completely. It was so "painful" that I still have quite twofold impressions of viewing Pixar/Disney cartoons with my nephews now. I know I shouldn't. But. Just. Can't.

This was the main reason why I didn't even try WS.

ps. Sorry, couldn't hold myself, but it was directly at feeling's point

--- snip ---

You didn’t add anything new to your phrases from our commencement of communication, just replaced a few words, meaning remained the same, I heard it already - answered that you were wrong - tried to explain (you got enough information) - it didn't help: you continue to misunderstand the point (although another person pulled out it of context with direct text) - just... let it go. Take it as "You win by tortured me", I have enough of such ineffectual mutual altercations in "new models" theme. Really. I don’t care how else you can rephrase your text = content has already been received, I have no interest in its "heroic mode"

That might have more to do with your convoluted and plain confusing writing style than any issue on their side.

may... be... could... be... possible... can't oppose anything specific here

[Forogil]

Red button isn't content: stories, dialogues, tasks/quests, "new locations with mobs with better loot for progress" are content. It's clear that Ulduar had beginnings of this system, and not a perfectly formed design, but they threw it in a favor of “heroic mods” and made a big mistake.

Interestingly an Ulduar hard mode had a "red button" to activate, and the hard modes didn't add new locations (except possibly for that celestial extra boss) - and there were no new quests in the hard modes as far as I recall (with same possible exception).

Thus it's clear that Ulduar had the beginning of this system we use today, and Blizzard continued with what worked and ditched the non-working parts (they tried with extra loot for killing bosses in different order for a council boss in MoP, barely anyone remembers it so we can see that it wasn't a success, having optional helpers is just too gimmicky - I can't recall if they have tried it again except for achievements).

I believe you should have left this discussion long ago, since it's clear that you want to re-create something that never happened.
I see a similar trend among others who praise Classic, and the likely outcome is that it will not live up to the hype and people will be disappointed. (Obviously that's fun to watch - like the amazing "Non-bugs in Classic".)

[huth]

That was the point I referred when talked about "that" system. I just wondered how much time person would need to understand this... but he didn't

That might have more to do with your convoluted and plain confusing writing style than any issue on their side.

As far I recall the ones with more than two settings (FL, Yogg, council, and Freya) had more variations so it cannot just have been one extra item - maybe just more badges (in addition to the mount from Yogg); whereas I know that OS had additional items for both 1 drake and 2 drakes.

Council dropped different items depending on which one you kill last, but AFAIR the rest didn't change. You either got the extra or not.

[Agrias2x]

I think Classic will overtake Retail, but tbh what's there to overtake lol BFA is already a joke. It's so boring that I have to try real hard to find something I wanna do and I fail every single time, there is just nothing worth doing in BFA. Even when 8.2 releases I don't really wanna play it cause the game doesn't value your time and effort whatsoever. Gear doesn't matter you don't need it for anything other than Mythic Raids which isn't rewarding enough and even if you get good gear it's just gonna reset so quickly with the next patch anyway so why bother. They add so many mounts, pets, toys in every patch that they just end up being so diluted and worthless. Won't even mention how annoying most of the time they are to get because of all the RNG or Gold requirement. BFA design it just not for me, not worth my time, I rather do other stuff. If it weren't for WoW Tokens I wouldn't even buy BFA at all. It looked terrible from the start and it still is. Maybe next expansion will be better if Blizzard learns something from Classic.

[Arakakao]

no in-depth talent system, just the cookie cutter.

That's what talent trees were back then. You had one build you were forced to take and nothing else. Depth was an illusion.

[Laserchicken87]

I will try Wow Classic to get a nostalgia trip. But I won't invest that much time in it. I loved Vanilla WoW but I also understand that the game is overhyped in terms of quality.

I will focus more on retail. Sure, it has flaws but I still enjoy it.