The only thing that bothers me with Classic is the airtight separation with Retail

[HuxNeva]

No one buys gold from Blizzard. You buy gold from other players - again, that's a fundamental difference systems like the Token and traditional P2W - you're not buying gold from the game, you buy it from other players.

While I agree with most of your reasoning, the above is wrong. Blizzard made the system explicitly so you can NOT buy gold from other players. The the whole token system is designed to prevent that. You can only (legitimately) buy gold from Blizzard. That they balance it with an arbitrage system to stabilize the ingame economy does not change that.

[ManiaCCC]

While I agree with most of your reasoning, the above is wrong. Blizzard made the system explicitly so you can NOT buy gold from other players. The the whole token system is designed to prevent that. You can only (legitimately) buy gold from Blizzard. That they balance it with an arbitrage system to stabilize the ingame economy does not change that.

Point is, gold is not made out of thin air. Gold transferred from one player to another, blizzard just provided the secure platform.

[HuxNeva]

Point is, gold is not made out of thin air. Gold transferred from one player to another, blizzard just provided the secure platform.

It is not 'just transferred' from one player to another. It is arbitraged. The former is a neutral position, the latter can be leveraged to steer the economy.

[Winged Hussar]

I understand some restrictions, especially all of them relating to gold (1 million gold, more or less pocket change in 2019, would make you the kingpin of the AH, the Rockfeller of coarse stone, the Gould of arcane crystal).

Still, maybe the restrictions could be airtight one way. For instance, doing the War of the Shifting Sands questline on vanilla give you the mount in vanilla and in retail ?

It would undermine the idea of classic.

[ManiaCCC]

It is not 'just transferred' from one player to another. It is arbitraged. The former is a neutral position, the latter can be leveraged to steer the economy.

I understand, but again, you are trading gold between players, not buying from the game or blizzard. That's the main difference. What mechanics are behind the price of the ticket is irrelevant.

[mojusk]

I would just like to send some bags and 10 gold from my retail to classic. Thats all!. I would be thrilled.
Kidding of course. Kinda.

some of those 34 slot bags

[HuxNeva]

That's in theory. But actually we don't know if Blizzard is adding/removing tokens themselves because there is no actual player interaction happening. They could easily be selling tokens and we wouldn't know about it because system is designed to be anonymous.

Anyway, token system has no place in Classic. It has bad side effect: more auction house resellers, scammers, boosters and so on. It gives heavy incentive to earn gold and can potentially deteriorate communities.

The only thing a token system does is replace the black gold seller market and all the tangential criminality this entails (account theft, credit card theft) with a secure system. There is no rational reason not to have a token system in Classic, the objections are just based on ignorance.

[Raugnaut]

The main thing is that Classic has a limited lifespan - They can't just let ppl sit in Naxxramas for the next few years. So either they'll bring out BC servers, or they'll do seasons.

If they do seasons, chances are that any active characters on the "reset" will go to Retail, along with any items that you have on you - In this situations, things like the Black Qiarji Battle Crystal would likely go with the character to retail.

Note that on Classic, the Black Qiraji Battle Tank will likely be rare then even on Retail - While there were a number of opportunities for ppl to get the Black Qiraji Battle Tank, even all the way up to WotLK (Plenty of time for ppl to get the Scepter), on Classic, you'll have a very limited amount of time on a limited number of servers to get that Scepter - Each raiding group can get at max 1 a week, and you'll likely only have 1-2 months to get as many as you can. A far cry from everyone who got a scepter from Vanilla and into early WotLK can just pay 25$ to go get the tank.

[ManiaCCC]

The only thing a token system does is replace the black gold seller market and all the tangential criminality this entails (account theft, credit card theft) with a secure system. There is no rational reason not to have a token system in Classic, the objections are just based on ignorance.

So you believe "you can't beat them, join them" approach is better? If we accept that selling gold for game time has effect on the game and create economic pressure on players, instead fighting practices, which are hurting(affecting) gameplay we will just create legal way to do it? I am not really sure about that.

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The main thing is that Classic has a limited lifespan - They can't just let ppl sit in Naxxramas for the next few years. So either they'll bring out BC servers, or they'll do seasons.

If they do seasons, chances are that any active characters on the "reset" will go to Retail, along with any items that you have on you - In this situations, things like the Black Qiarji Battle Crystal would likely go with the character to retail.

While I think, they will try at least once whole "season" idea and release new server with fresh start, I doubt it will be popular enough. So progression, either to another expansion or some new content is only logical step.

[Pendragon]

I understand some restrictions, especially all of them relating to gold (1 million gold, more or less pocket change in 2019, would make you the kingpin of the AH, the Rockfeller of coarse stone, the Gould of arcane crystal).

Still, maybe the restrictions could be airtight one way. For instance, doing the War of the Shifting Sands questline on vanilla give you the mount in vanilla and in retail ?

No. Go away and stay away from Classic.

[Romanthony]

I believe they have already stated that items you earn in classic, such as mounts will NOT transfer to retail. They are separate collections

[Adoxe]

Nope. People would play Classic for the wrong reasons if it gave them rewards on retail. Classic itself is the incentive, it doesn't need and shouldn't have any extra bullshit added ontop of it. Clearly, you don't care about Classic for what it is so just don't bother with it.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Nope. People would play Classic for the wrong reasons if it gave them rewards on retail. Classic itself is the incentive, it doesn't need and shouldn't have any extra bullshit added ontop of it. Clearly, you don't care about Classic for what it is so just don't bother with it.

Exactly. Would just be a mad rush of current expo players charging at certain things only to ditch immediately upon failure or success.

[Raelbo]

Tokens do indeed present a pay to win system. You exchange money for gold that can be used to buy rewards.

While this is true, I don't agree that it is actually a problem. Probably the biggest problem with pay to win is when it becomes the preferred way to achieve game objectives. Because when that is that the case, it puts pressure on players to choose to either play at a disadvantage or pay. And the point I a have been trying to get across about tokens is that, by design, they don't do this. They don't give enough gold for real money to give most players a compelling reason to spend their money. Any half decent player is going to be doing just fine on gold without the need for a token.

A brand new player can pay money to boost to near max level, buy unlimited amounts of gold, buy the largest bags, the best consumables, the best BoEs, buy raid carries, PvP carries, win Blackmarket Auctions. All without EVER having to play the game. pay to win.

While what you say is theoretically possible, it isn't in practice.

Firstly, there is a limit of 10 tokens per week that any player can buy for $$. I suppose you could get imaginitive and create multiple accounts to circumvent that limit, but then you're paying multiple subscriptions on top of the already steep price for the gold. On top of that, trying to buy excessive amounts of gold will start to push the gold value of tokens down, again, making it even more expensive.

Even if a handful of players are doing this, it's certainly not sustainable for any significant number of players. You may argue that such a player would be ruining their game experience, and hey, you might even be right. But why should I, or anyone else care? How does that affect our gaming experience? It doesn't. Even the idea that I am now at a disadvantage, for example bidding for an item on the BMAH, because now the gold buyer has more gold is easily disproved. Firstly, any gold obtained by a gold buyer is gained from a seller who now has less gold (and thus is less competition). Secondly, people who want that gold are necessarily going to be dissuaded by not have access to tokens - as said already, it's quite possible to make the gold in game. Thirdly, gold sellers are a minority of players in the game.

Gold is easy to get... so a person can do WQs and run old raids on multiple characters very easily and get rewards from buying raid/pvp carries. So this demeans the value of actually EARNING the rewards.

While I can see what you're getting at, I don't agree at all. If you're going to allow the fact that someone got an achievement that you got by buying it to diminish your own accomplishment, that's on you. Honestly, I suggest focussing on your own game rather than worrying about how other people are playing.

Blizzard owns everything in game. They own your character, they own it's gear, they own everything. When a player sells the gold... where does the $20 go to? To the entity the gold belongs to.. Blizzard.

True, but it doesn't invalidate my point. To all intents and purposes, when you buy a token for $$, you're exchanging money with the player who is giving you the gold, and Blizzard takes a commission.

A final example... mounts from old raids. I absolutely LOVED farming the old raids to get Invincible, Rivendare' Charger, Ashes of Alar, and on and on... I actually have most of them (damn you Mimiron's Head!)

But I'll be the first to say that it has greatly diminished the value of having them.

While true, I think that's pretty much unavoidable. The thrill of getting a rare mount doesn't last. There will always be some new mount that becomes the object of our desire. It's just the way we work. So even if those mounts became unavailable and you were lucky enough to have one of them, they would still diminish in value the minute a new rare mount becomes available.

As you said yourself, there is a lot of value in leaving those mounts around for people to farm. The fact that they still take a fair amount of devotion and perseverence to get them means that you still get a certain thrill when they do finally drop.

There is something special about the Swift Zulian Tiger... that is... until they allowed people to buy gold then bid on it in the black Market AH.

Lol. Dude, the fact that it exists on the BMAH doesn't make it any less special. They're so rare on the BMAH that I doubt even 1% of the total tigers out there were obtained from the BMAH.

I farmed ZG every lockout for months to try and get the tiger to drop. I got 3 raptors (I ended up carrying 2 friends who couldn't solo it at the time) but no tiger. So I was thrilled when I saw it could be obtained via BMAH. I got mine about 2 months ago. It cost me 10M gold. That is years of effort, firstly obtaining the gold (no, it's not just running a few old raids on a few alts), checking the BMAH every day and then competing against other players to win the bid. Before Legion and the gold cap increase, there was a crowd at madam Goya every evening at 23:30 ready to bid 1 Million instantly so as to secure the winning bid. I lost out on 2 tigers before the gold cap got increased. After the increase I only had about 8 million so I missed out on the next one. I then had to wait 2 years to finally see another one. After the BfA gold nerf I was even reluctant to drop 10M on it, so I opened with 6M. When someone else bid 8M I went straight to cap. That's how highly sought after they are.

If anyone in the history of WoW has earned it, that's me. If some twat wants to try to claim that me getting mine off the BMAH somehow diminishes their own (which they got simply by luck), they don't deserve my or anyone else's sympathy. I say let em stew :P

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While I agree with most of your reasoning, the above is wrong. Blizzard made the system explicitly so you can NOT buy gold from other players. The the whole token system is designed to prevent that. You can only (legitimately) buy gold from Blizzard. That they balance it with an arbitrage system to stabilize the ingame economy does not change that.

The fact that they balance it out with an arbitrage system means that it's effectively the same thing, even if not technically the same. To all intents and purposes it's like two players are trading gold for cash anonymously. Which, as I said, has significant implications for the game compared to a system in which gold was simply created and injected into the economy - which would be pretty catastrophic.

[grexly75]

Another one of these threads, and as a good old saying goes "you say you want classic but you really don't.." Because you are changing the whole premise of why classic is being done..

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Nope. People would play Classic for the wrong reasons if it gave them rewards on retail. Classic itself is the incentive, it doesn't need and shouldn't have any extra bullshit added ontop of it. Clearly, you don't care about Classic for what it is so just don't bother with it.

Exactly this^ those who are wanting what the OP wants do not really want classic, they just want those no longer obtainable rewards from the old game to play in retail, and don't care about classic at all..

[FelPlague]

I understand some restrictions, especially all of them relating to gold (1 million gold, more or less pocket change in 2019, would make you the kingpin of the AH, the Rockfeller of coarse stone, the Gould of arcane crystal).

Still, maybe the restrictions could be airtight one way. For instance, doing the War of the Shifting Sands questline on vanilla give you the mount in vanilla and in retail ?

I agree, i really feel like "why shouldnt we be able to? if we are forced to play hots, overwatch, starcraft, etxc to unlock stuff for wow why not the same for vanilla"
but then at the same time i do agree it would cause players to play it, then get to nax, get corrupted ashbringer, then leave the game, causing issues with people leaving.


i really hate the idea of limited time content it adds stuff then removes stuff from the game.
so i really want these items and acheives to be earned again.
but sadly i agree it would cause issues, i just think the pros outweight the cons.

as one of the major pros "you didnt earn it during vanilla" is this... not supposed to be vanilla? so why is earning it now somehow worth less then earning it back then?

[AceofH]

The only thing a token system does is replace the black gold seller market and all the tangential criminality this entails (account theft, credit card theft) with a secure system. There is no rational reason not to have a token system in Classic, the objections are just based on ignorance.

Adding tokens to classic would undermine the whole working towards objectives.
In vanilla wow it wasnt easy to get your mount at all. Tokens would change that.
It would also enable you to cheese your way to easy gear.

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I agree, i really feel like "why shouldnt we be able to? if we are forced to play hots, overwatch, starcraft, etxc to unlock stuff for wow why not the same for vanilla"
but then at the same time i do agree it would cause players to play it, then get to nax, get corrupted ashbringer, then leave the game, causing issues with people leaving.


i really hate the idea of limited time content it adds stuff then removes stuff from the game.
so i really want these items and acheives to be earned again.
but sadly i agree it would cause issues, i just think the pros outweight the cons.

as one of the major pros "you didnt earn it during vanilla" is this... not supposed to be vanilla? so why is earning it now somehow worth less then earning it back then?

There is minimal cross game unlocks in blizzard games and most of it is locked to pre purchase and such rewards that doesnt actually involve actual play

[FelPlague]

Adding tokens to classic would undermine the whole working towards objectives.
In vanilla wow it wasnt easy to get your mount at all. Tokens would change that.
It would also enable you to cheese your way to easy gear.

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There is minimal cross game unlocks in blizzard games and most of it is locked to pre purchase and such rewards that doesnt actually involve actual play

Grave pet= level in hots
Hearth steed= win games in hearthstone
Flame saber= do a ton of hots matches with friends, limited time.
genji oni skin (OW)= play a ton of hots

then yeah all the mounts and pets and toys for buyying OTHER GAMES.

[bigbleach]

The reason behind the seperation, is that you should never feel like you should pay Classic just to get something in retail. Having the mount/title from War of the Shifting Sands in retail, is a statue of being there when it happened. You don't have to worry about it as a new player.

If they bind them together, some people will proberly feel compelled to do Classic content, just so that they get part of that sweet, sweet cosmetic loot. Thats not what is supposed to happen. If you do well in Classic, you are great in Classic. If you do well in retail, you do well in retail. They are different games and different accomplishments.

Proberly. Much kekage.

Real talk:
Agree 100%, keep the crap separate. Those items are a testament to the vets and should remain so. I think the oldest exclusive item I have is the tabard of the protector, which was obtained in vanilla, I more or less consider it a BC item since it is from the prelaunch. Wish I had the AQ mount but it would feel meaningless to obtain it now. It's one of those things when you see it, like "damn... nice mount" and go on with your day.

[Oftenwrongsoong]

I understand some restrictions, especially all of them relating to gold (1 million gold, more or less pocket change in 2019, would make you the kingpin of the AH, the Rockfeller of coarse stone, the Gould of arcane crystal).

Still, maybe the restrictions could be airtight one way. For instance, doing the War of the Shifting Sands questline on vanilla give you the mount in vanilla and in retail ?

There's only a 10-hour window to get that mount, and nobody who plays retail with a "so-so" casual attitude towards Classic is going to 1) getting into a guild to get the quest item that starts the quest chain; 2) come remotely close to finishing the quest chain in the highly unlikely scenario then even get to start it; or 3) be around during the 10 hour window AND have complete the entire quest chain to get the mount quest.