A Discourse on Night Elf Arcana and Their Highborne Group

[Beloren]

Power fantasises....


There is a lot there, but it's there to give all the examples. I don't just stop at one or two, but tend to give as much as I can.. to be as comprehensive as possible, to make my point, but it just looksl ike none of you read it, so I end up respondingrepeating the same things - please just read it. youd on't have to agree withal of it, but there are valid points that would save the back and forth.

Yes, I would agree many of your points are valid, but if you waffle too much, and they are buried halfway or near the end of the post, i can gurantee very few peopel are going to get that far to your point. They are going to read the first waffle comment on that, skim and skip and likely take a point somewhere you wrote that sounds wrong and very likely out of context, because the context text is too long.


Take all that stuff.. I can summarise your point in the statement I made:
I do acknowledge they have an arcane community now, but the it is not an arcane culture in the faction. That arcane community does operate in an arcane culture but it is not the famous reckless highborne one we all know they despise, I agree it is a purer one that we got a good glimpse of with the court of Farondis and it is highborne, but it is limited to that community large or small.

This.. was what all that waffle was about. We know that. but if you type so much, you're going to confuse them.

[ravenmoon]

Yes, I would agree many of your points are valid, but if you waffle too much, and they are buried halfway or near the end of the post, i can gurantee very few peopel are going to get that far to your point. They are going to read the first waffle comment on that, skim and skip and likely take a point somewhere you wrote that sounds wrong and very likely out of context, because the context text is too long.


Take all that stuff.. I can summarise your point in the statement I made:
I do acknowledge they have an arcane community now, but the it is not an arcane culture in the faction. That arcane community does operate in an arcane culture but it is not the famous reckless highborne one we all know they despise, I agree it is a purer one that we got a good glimpse of with the court of Farondis and it is highborne, but it is limited to that community large or small.

This.. was what all that waffle was about. We know that. but if you type so much, you're going to confuse them.

Not bad, but I would hope some appreciate detail and depth.. this was afterall a discourse, so needed to be thorough, I do like talking about this, and sometimes like the challenge of topics that aren't often considered or discussed or areas where fairly amount of misconceptions exist.. usually slight one.

[RangerDaz]

Night elves don't like cities, yet they ended up building darnassus (RIP darnassus btw)

Night elves don't like other types of elves, but will become allies to whoever enters the alliance, including void infused elves.


Gameplay always will ruin lore, and lore will hav to adapt. It is sad that the old cool lore keeps being ruined for the sake of new gameplay, but that's what an MMO like WoW requires.

[Beloren]

Not bad, but I would hope some appreciate detail and depth.. this was afterall a discourse, so needed to be thorough, I do like talking about this, and sometimes like the challenge of topics that aren't often considered or discussed or areas where fairly amount of misconceptions exist.. usually slight one.

I can summarise all you are saying in bullet points.

• Night elves don't have an arcane culture but they have an arcane community.
• Their arcane community has an arcane culture
• Their arcane community is not the same reckless/addicted/arrogant community prevalent around the invasion.
• An overall night elf new culture is forming and will have elements of the cultures practiced by its various Orders and groups.

• The Arcane is a core part of the Night elves;
  But practice of it isn't, that is only part of the highborne community.

• Arcane practice is not society wide today amongst the night elves as it was in the pre-sundering era,
  But it happens just as tenaciously and advanced amongst the Darnassian highborne community as it does nightborne or other highborne offshoots like high elves and blood elves.

• Night elf society contrasts because only their highborne use the arcane for sorcery, while in the other societies, its use is more prevalent society wide, with the highest amongst the nightborne who maintain the pre-sundering era society wide level of use.

• Night elves don't hate the arcane, but hate reckless, arrogant and irresponsible users that get addicted - as this was the characteristic of the night elves who brought the legion.

The Arcane (not arcane practice) is a core part of the night elves because:

• They are made from the arcane
• It's energy and arcane source has always been a part of them
• They've always used the arcane in one form or the other: For spells and passively in pre-sundering era, passively in the long vigil
• Well of Eternity has been a core part of their race in all eras, and they've been surrounded by its energy.
• Long Vigil society used the arcane well for moonwells and boosting the land.
• Though banning using the arcane for spells, the arcane was still present in wells and moonwells.
• The priests and druids use arcane energy spells from the stars and moon
• The skin colour and eye glow of the night elves is because of their arcane make up.
• The night elves throughout their history in both pre-sundering and long vigil era have use the arcane in tandem with nature, and have benefited from it.
• Night elves have always had arcane using communities since the start: while the long vigil stopped arcane practice, the nightborne, highborne and Moonguard groups did not. They are also night elven.

There ya go.. easy peasy. Condensed. You could probably condense it more like use 3 points for the arcane core part. I'll demonstrated again soon.

Night elves don't like cities, yet they ended up building darnassus (RIP darnassus btw)

Night elves don't like other types of elves, but will become allies to whoever enters the alliance, including void infused elves.


Gameplay always will ruin lore, and lore will hav to adapt. It is sad that the old cool lore keeps being ruined for the sake of new gameplay, but that's what an MMO like WoW requires.

Actually Darnassus is proof that's not true, if you say a race doesn't like something, there will have to be a reason why. It's too big a genearlisation to make.


I would believe that druids aren't fans of cities, nor hunters, I would agree priests like Temples, and civilians live in cities. Highborne would definitely love cities too. I wouldn't chalk Darnassus up to gameplay at all, they could have easily given night elves a Forest like Val'sharah or Loth'lorien - but they aren't pure forest elves, they are the best of forest and dark elves, and the dark elf bit is there in hte highborne and priests to a measure, while the forest elf there in the druids and the huntress calibre sentinels . Their story has cities in it that were destroyed, and period where the magic to restore them was banned. But now that is ended, they have parts of their soceiety that does cities, and parts that do not, which isn't surprising.

[ravenmoon]

Night elves don't like cities, yet they ended up building darnassus (RIP darnassus btw)

.

Cities weren't built/rebuilt in the long vigil because they didn't like it - (if that's why you think night elves don't like cities)
Let’s also not assume we know than blizzard about their own stuff, instead of trying to lock night elves into the box of pure forest elves, that are arcane hating and hate cities, why don’t we instead see what the lore and story is teling us and the evidence, and follow that, rather than stick night elves into our box. Can’t say they hate cities when they have them, or arcane magic whentthey use it now and accept it, nor that they hate all highborne – thatt’s just not true.

Nor is the argument that it’s mostly not liked..there are issues with highborne for the past, and a lot of night elves, including arcane wielding ones are angry at the caste for that, but accept that there are highborne alsoamognst them, and they are not the addicted reckless type they hate, these ones are reformed/changed/ pure

[Beloren]

@ravenmoon , @Combatbulter, @formerShandalay
I think part of the confusion here is that the night elves have an emerging arcane community... but it's not a regular situation because they aren't new to the arcane, and are naturally talented at it, so these discussions get stuck between people talking about the night elves at different stages.

Right now, only their highborne have an arcane culture, not the whole society, - but it's led by incredibly powerful and ancient magi, so their knowledge base would likely be as advanced as the nightborne, but you won't see the fruits of that immediately - until blizzard show you, and their impact on the wider society would take a little longer.

Their history likely means the arcane-practice (not the same as the arcane) would never be society wide like before, but the arcane wielders would be ones their community would trust because they share similar values of responsibilty, benevolence, reverence for Elune and the wilds (like you saw in the Farondis highborne), even though their speciality is the arcane, which they are just as talented as their nightborne counterparts - the difference here is the invasion period highborne night elves stopped revering the wilds and harmony of nature on a societal level - and though some nightborne might become druids even and priestesses and have this attitude, it won't be a societal wide thing, just limited to their groups, whiles in the kaldorei it is societal wide, and it is the practice of arcane (not the arcane itself) that is not society wide.

The arcane though would always be a part of all night elves and play part as large and central to them as Elune or nature, and it always has, because all the night elves have always been surrounded with it whether they practiced it or banned it, they used the Well's properties, suffused by its energy they combine with nature to do good and Elune's blessings to prevent corruption and together avoid the addiction of the high elves - druids and priests do this just as proudly and unashamedly, they just don't practice the arcane. Arcane practice would be a highborne group only.

Synopsis
There is nothing to stop the highborne group developing night elven cities, influencing civilian life, forests been druid cultivated/fixed, led and influencing night elves who live in it more, and temples being priest led, and influencing night elves who live there too. - @RangarDaz Night elves will have a city, it would be highborne built like the ancient ones (there is no point re-inventing the wheel - the assets are there in Suramar, narthalas, zin'azshari, Dire Maul - they would look like that, their temples would look like Cathedral of Eternal Night , and the other temples in the Broken isles, their forests end up looking like val'sharah, and all the various parts of their society would be involved. Traditionally, highborne and druids built the ancient cities together -- both these elements are present again, with the ancients form back then being around,a nd the shen'drlaar possibly the main group that did the Queen's wonders

[formerShandalay]

<snip>


It wasn't in Wolfheart… in wolfheart, the highborne insist that they should not be restricted in their use of arcane magic, nor have to adopt the darnassian culture, and that they pick their students who would become part of the highborne. As part of their terms and conditions. Malfurion tells them to give it some time, but all their conditions will be met.. be patient, there is still anger, but most night elves have come round. In time all will, it could take a few years.

However it was in Wolfheart it was mentioned about rebelling about the restrictions in secret - but that's not exactly how it went on, they were practicing the arcane in the forest in secret and were busted by Malfurion who warned them that no misuse of magic against the balance of nature would be tolerated and that their request hadn't been approved yet - however since that opening interaction, their conditions were met and approved, and things have moved on since. What people don't seem to factor in when they think is that things move on,what may have been the case at the start of the story is not always the same later on, as things happen, especially when the reasons for certain things being one way, change or get revealed to be wrong,you can expect attitudes to shift and change even if blizzard don't come back and actuyually state, "everyone now htings differently" if they thought one way and the reasons no longer a pply orare shown to be false,y oucan and should expect change, and you will also see indications of change later down the line.

Since MoP/WoD - I have seen no indication that the night elves haven't come round. In Cata we were shown lots of new mages and night elves flocking to study under the highborne. In WoD we also saw a lot of night elf mages, as well as druids and priests represented, in l egion we saw a lot more of their pre-sundering culture in the nightborne, and more of their arcnae users in both the Moonguard and Farondis - that is 2 zones dedicated to showing night elven arcane lore. We had the demon hunters and we had the druids in Val'sharah as well as the Wardens of the towers and the vaults, and the Ravencrest undead in Black rook hold

This topic was here to challenge pre-conceptions about the night elves, by highlighting the instnaces and evidences in game, in lore that might be saying something different to what a lot of people think. It is not saying that the arcane dominates the kaldorei, nor is it saying that druids and priests aren't a major part of the kaldorei.

Well, I guess we agree on the way the story went, but not on the conclusions we draw from that. Because, as you say, they rebel against the restrictions and practice their magic in secret to a point where Malfurion goes to warn them that they are overstepping and being too reckless for the restrictions they agreed to adhere to.
In my view, that inherently means they were restricted in a way that made them dissatisfied and also they were defying orders and an agreement, which again caused mistrust in the sincerity of their promise about not being reckless and adhering to the laws given to them not even one year after having given their word.

And we have seen evidence of the Nightelves not having come around in Elegy. The Highborne largely moved out of Darnassus and Teldrassil and are not even sure if they'll be welcomed back in a moment of dire need. That doesn't sound like it got any better in the mean time, more like it got worse.

Yes this all happened, but I'm not saying that everyone amongst the night elves loved and embraced both the use of arcane magic or the returned highborne - however to use one example that highlights some difficulties, but ignore the sheer volume of htose that did join not to mention, that the alliance was reached, and they were accepted might obscure the reality of what is going amongst htem.

Malfurion did say it would take a fewy ears, and that story witht he priest, is at thes tart of it. Has anything happened in kaldorie society that you feel would have changed the views of some who were still mistrusting?

Well yes.. a lot.


Would some anger still remain over the highborne's role in the wotA ? Yes, everyone would still be angry about that - but does that mean anger at something that is actually worthy of anger would mean they would be angry at blameless arcane users, or reformed ones? or won't accept them? No it doesn't.


Were all arcane users portalling demons in or arrogant and absusive? Ofc not! Most night elves used the arcane, including moonguard and they were heroes of the war, so obviously anger is not against all arcane users, or the arcane itself. But the highborne group..BUT !!!!!


Does that mean there wouldn't be some reticence about aracne usage given what happened before? Naturally, amongst some, especially in a society if you've been warned off arcane for a while.. is this most of society or just some? I would say only a few - because they do accept both arcane usage and the highborne too, and also their are revealtions about the arcane to factor in.


Since WC3, and then cata and now Legion, many revelations about the arcane have come to light, that the darnassian community would not have known or not believed but now would do, and would lead to changes.. this should not surprise anyone: A few are:

• Blue dragons have also returned, available to verify claims (they were absent during the long vigil and couldn't help inform certain decisions,
• DRaenei arcane users, high elven ones that didn't fall to corruption, and
• Responsible night elven arcane wielders like the Moonguard and Farondis.
• Revelations about the Legion's true purpose and goal being Azeroth the titan (not the night elves' magic well).
• Proof that wielding the arcane can be disguised from the twisting nether, and thus they could have used magic. (the high elves and shend'ralar would provide this)
• Cure for magic addiction and understanding on how to prevent it.
• Evidence of the nobility of arcane users, including highborne ones in that the shen'dralar have remained uncorrupt as have the new darnassians.
• Farondis have demonstrated and reminded all who would know the highborne were quite noble before many adopted addiction , arrogance and hubris, and Farondis is evidence of some who remained in the original incarnation, furthermore:
• The current Darnassian ones have been impeccable in character - Humans like Khadgar, Dalaran, Draenei and others are also evidence that arcane usage can be responsible and great too, and they don't need that evidence anyway, as they would remember themselves in the past.

The increasing presence of night elven mages is an indication of both the responsibility and trust of the kaldorei, and it is not a definitive stamenet that all are okay or all over, but certainly and indication that is is generally acecpeted, and a lot do love. What I hoped to challenge was people who thought it was marginalised, much hated, and just a minor or insignificant part of the kaldorie. It isn't, and it doesn't have to be. Furthremore I like that isn't, it really is a part of the kaldoriei - even if its practice was absent for a while. But its practice being absent doesn't mean it was absent - it was present in the Well of Eternity itself, in the Moonwells and lets not forget the spells that druids and priests use that are arcane energy - they may not be sorcery/magecraft, but they do utilise arcane energy.

I think we do need to take into account that the Nightelves as they appeared in Wow as a playable race, I mean that specific part of their society, are a very long lived race who have been mistrusting and even hostile towards actual pure arcane practice for ten thousand years. Some of them even remember the reason for it themselves. It would have been a thing ingrained into their children and into any last aspect of their society. So for them to change, it would not take 'some years' but more like centuries... unless of course something happens that makes them see their mages in a different light, as people that actually care for their society and their welfare, because they are part of them. This did not happen until Teldrassil burned. Now they are part of them again (and I was quite happy to see Mordent Evershade being an actual part of their army, fighting side by side with the forces of the Sentinels and the forces of nature).
Between Wolfheart and Elegy I don't think we have any hint on how the Highborne on Teldrassil were doing and how many of them were even left. Most of the Nightelven mages we met were away from the Nightelves, being part of the Kirin Tor (like the Starlance siblings) or having places of their own, away from the other Kaldorei (like Estulan).

I am in agreement with all of this, I'm not sure why you think my post or me disagrees with this, You are 100 % correct.

Ah, ok, this was the part where I wasn't sure if I misunderstood and apparently I did I somehow thought you were of the opinion that the Kaldorei empire as a whole still somehow practiced nature magic on a wider scale.



I think that Blizzard somehow struggle with the Nightelves, because they want to on one side keep them as the genuine nature-adhering race they were in WC3 and never want to dilute and develop this, so as to not piss off the Nightelf fans, but on the other hand they also want to bring in chapters from a past that was quite different. I really think looking at the difference between Farondis's people and Tyrande's people you get a very good glimpse at what they may have been before Azshara went all 'burn the world'. He seems to have a society led by arcane practice with some Elune priesthood mixed into it and also some nature stuff on the side (without the actual Cenarion druidism) while the Tyrande Nightelves have an Elune and nature mix with the arcane merely being present as a sidenote within that and not as a practice in and of itself. Which might now change with a little more of the arcane practice, but always subordinate to Elune and nature. I personally hope they keep it like that and make it possible for several different 'cultures' to co-exist, because they won't become expansionist in any way, you know, keeping their culture, adhering to their rules, but not imposing that on others.

[ravenmoon]

@ravenmoon , @Combatbulter, @formerShandalay
I think part of the confusion here is that the night elves have an emerging arcane community... but it's not a regular situation because they aren't new to the arcane, and are naturally talented at it, so these discussions get stuck between people talking about the night elves at different stages.

Right now, only their highborne have an arcane culture, not the whole society, - but it's led by incredibly powerful and ancient magi, so their knowledge base would likely be as advanced as the nightborne, but you won't see the fruits of that immediately - until blizzard show you, and their impact on the wider society would take a little longer.

Their history likely means the arcane-practice (not the same as the arcane) would never be society wide like before, but the arcane wielders would be ones their community would trust because they share similar values of responsibilty, benevolence, reverence for Elune and the wilds (like you saw in the Farondis highborne), even though their speciality is the arcane, which they are just as talented as their nightborne counterparts - the difference here is the invasion period highborne night elves stopped revering the wilds and harmony of nature on a societal level - and though some nightborne might become druids even and priestesses and have this attitude, it won't be a societal wide thing, just limited to their groups, whiles in the kaldorei it is societal wide, and it is the practice of arcane (not the arcane itself) that is not society wide.

The arcane though would always be a part of all night elves and play part as large and central to them as Elune or nature, and it always has, because all the night elves have always been surrounded with it whether they practiced it or banned it, they used the Well's properties, suffused by its energy they combine with nature to do good and Elune's blessings to prevent corruption and together avoid the addiction of the high elves - druids and priests do this just as proudly and unashamedly, they just don't practice the arcane. Arcane practice would be a highborne group only.

Synopsis
There is nothing to stop the highborne group developing night elven cities, influencing civilian life, forests been druid cultivated/fixed, led and influencing night elves who live in it more, and temples being priest led, and influencing night elves who live there too. - @RangarDaz Night elves will have a city, it would be highborne built like the ancient ones (there is no point re-inventing the wheel - the assets are there in Suramar, narthalas, zin'azshari, Dire Maul - they would look like that, their temples would look like Cathedral of Eternal Night , and the other temples in the Broken isles, their forests end up looking like val'sharah, and all the various parts of their society would be involved. Traditionally, highborne and druids built the ancient cities together -- both these elements are present again, with the ancients form back then being around,a nd the shen'drlaar possibly the main group that did the Queen's wonders

Good summary. As for the end bit, I really think that blizzard would have an easy time just giving the night elves the broken isle zones, with Suramar as their capital, - it's literally all there, A capital for all, zone for druids (val'sharah), highborne (Azsuna), temples including a Cathedral for priests in each area, fortress for sentinels (black rook), Moonguard (moonguard stronghold), Wardens (warden vault), fel zone area for Demon hunters - they even have a repaired verison of the buildings in Azsuna for the highborne zone. It's got everything that relates to all their groups, all their aspects and core sites of their racial history. [Druidsms birth place is there, Elune's capital temple, their original home city of most of the Darnassians, black rook hold where the resistance as born, Warden Vault etc)

The only complication is what to do with the nightborne - they could refugee them like the void elves are, giving the nightbonre either a reason to hate the kaldoreo or desire them on the horde like void elves desire the blood elves on the alliance. In this instance, nightborne will go share with blood elves or replicate their city in kalimdor (thinking Desolace?) how it happens could be interesting, maybe a bunch of nightborne defect o the alliance, unable to trust the horde after Teldrassil, and finding like minds in the highborne and high/void elves, these nightborne via the arcan'dor transition to their original kaldorei forms

An alternative is the nightbonre share a capital, redefining the relationship between races on opposite factions.. the only way I can see this happening is if the horde and alliance become a secondary priority for night elves and nightborne alike, and rehabilitating their race becomes the top priority - a common hihgborne venture focused on rebuilding the race, while the druids continue to look to rebuilding nature, adnt he priests warriors against corruption and evil. - so while the horde and alliance hate each tother, this doesn't drive hate between night elf and nightborne -because more is at stake for them, and the horde and alliance is only a short lived thing for them - they have

- - - Updated - - -

Well, I guess we agree on the way the story went, but not on the conclusions we draw from that. Because, as you say, they rebel against the restrictions and practice their magic in secret to a point where Malfurion goes to warn them that they are overstepping and being too reckless for the restrictions they agreed to adhere to.
In my view, that inherently means they were restricted in a way that made them dissatisfied and also they were defying orders and an agreement, which again caused mistrust in the sincerity of their promise about not being reckless and adhering to the laws given to them not even one year after having given their word.

the secret practice happened first, then the discussion of the terms.

It's not the fact that they were practicing arcane magic that Malfurion reacted to, it was what they were doing to the forest with the spell they were casting.

Check it out. When people say heavily monitored and restricted they are repeating an error someone mentioned. I am not clear they ever promised not to be reckless, the way their story goes is that their time in the forest expelled from Dire Maul, cleared them of addictions, so they approach the Darnassians uncorrupted. They initially mistrusted because of the past, but accepted out of mutual need

And we have seen evidence of the Nightelves not having come around in Elegy. The Highborne largely moved out of Darnassus and Teldrassil and are not even sure if they'll be welcomed back in a moment of dire need. That doesn't sound like it got any better in the mean time, more like it got worse.

Now this is not the case as far as I am aware. What made you think that?
They haven't been kicked out of anywhere since they returned, nor are they restricted from areas or objects, nor in using arcane magic. They are part of the night elves once more, not 2nd class citizens watched and monitored. People over interpret the sentinel approaching Mordant Evenshade and early Wolfheart and dont follow the changes and progress made - I suspect they hold these views and dont care to update them when the lore shows development...but that is why I made this topic. For those.

I think we do need to take into account that the Night elves as they appeared in Wow as a playable race, I mean that specific part of their society, are a very long lived race who have been mistrusting and even hostile towards actual pure arcane practice for ten thousand years. Some of them even remember the reason for it themselves. It would have been a thing ingrained into their children and into any last aspect of their society. So for them to change, it would not take 'some years' but more like centuries... unless of course something happens that makes them see their mages in a different light, as people that actually care for their society and their welfare, because they are part of them. This did not happen until Teldrassil burned. Now they are part of them again (and I was quite happy to see Mordent Evershade being an actual part of their army, fighting side by side with the forces of the Sentinels and the forces of nature).
Between Wolfheart and Elegy I don't think we have any hint on how the Highborne on Teldrassil were doing and how many of them were even left. Most of the Nightelven mages we met were away from the Nightelves, being part of the Kirin Tor (like the Starlance siblings) or having places of their own, away from the other Kaldorei (like Estulan).

Two points here worth noting
1. Night elves are highly intelligent, benevolent in nature and forgiving. This is the original character of tyr night elves, only deviating on a culture wide basis when the highborne got addicted and arrogant. So naturally when we see non addicted highborne like the Farondis, they have the same benevolent, wise and very noble character we know the entire highborne castle would have had before addiction, furthermore we can infer as well, that the shen'dralar, now cured from addiction would be like that, and all the new Darnassian highborne that started training to be mages, as well as old ones who returned to it like the Starlance twins would also be of that character.

Also bear in mind the night elves have always been quick to change long standing traditions when occasion calls for it (banning the arcane after the su dering, and lifting it again, going into isolation, and coming out again)

What does this mean? It means what may take centuries for humans to would not take that long for night elves, weeks, months, at most a few years, added to that they would have proof of good minded folk of good character...now wielding the arcane, have evidence in Draenei, humans and other races that you can wield the arcane without being arrogant and addicted, and have evidence in the shen'dralar by now that even if you got all addicted, you can leave that behind and embrace your original night elven nature wielding the arcane.

This doesnt mean that kaldorei would still jot be very angry at invasion era reckless highborne, nor hate that culture etc, but that in no way means that is the culture of their new highborne group and that they dont accept them. People think that the new kaldorei rebuilt highborne order would have the same suspicion and mistrust of the old especially when we know they dont have the same character - they are not addicted anymore nor are they reckless, arrogance seems much less too, and only the new Darnassian ones wont have the same blame the old ones like the shen'dralar had, nor would the Farondis if they ever became a part.

2. We also need to take into account ALL the lore tells us about night elves. The manual texts, the novels, the encyclopedia info...it is the text that gives the context of what is shown in WC3, what are they? Why are they not practising magic, yet fully surrounded and infused with it.. what is their relation to it etc.

Only then can we properly interprete and understand what is going on.

Some were surprised night elves got mages and the arcane back, but they just didnt understand night elves because their view of them was based on partial info, they saw the forest elf side, but didnt read the dark elf arcane side, and this is why night elves are described as enigmatic

Ah, ok, this was the part where I wasn't sure if I misunderstood and apparently I did I somehow thought you were of the opinion that the Kaldorei empire as a whole still somehow practiced nature magic on a wider scale.

I think the other posters made a point, in my enthusiasm to really highlight this, I have Ben over thorough and wordy to the extent the main facts are obscured and it appears I am saying something I am not while failing to convey properly what I am saying.

And so I have to write more responses to clarify that.

But at least it keeps the topic going. Though I'd prefer it did so for the main points it was bringing up

I think that Blizzard somehow struggle with the Nightelves, because they want to on one side keep them as the genuine nature-adhering race they were in WC3 and never want to dilute and develop this, so as to not piss off the Nightelf fans, but on the other hand they also want to bring in chapters from a past that was quite different. I really think looking at the difference between Farondis's people and Tyrande's people you get a very good glimpse at what they may have been before Azshara went all 'burn the world'. He seems to have a society led by arcane practice with some Elune priesthood mixed into it and also some nature stuff on the side (without the actual Cenarion druidism) while the Tyrande Nightelves have an Elune and nature mix with the arcane merely being present as a sidenote within that and not as a practice in and of itself. Which might now change with a little more of the arcane practice, but always subordinate to Elune and nature. I personally hope they keep it like that and make it possible for several different 'cultures' to co-exist, because they won't become expansionist in any way, you know, keeping their culture, adhering to their rules, but not imposing that on others.

I think it is some players that struggle to accept night elves as they are, keep trying to restrict them to the forest elf mould, because that was what was most visible from warcraft 3, but they have always been more. The devs shared they are a combination of the best of the dark elves and the best of the forest elves, and they did that when you take in all their lore..,I.e pre sundering lore from the novels, demon hunter pore, highborne and arcane lore, and things like the Well of Etrnity quite prominent in theirmstory, moreso than the world tree.

But a world tree is more visible than an arcane well,and blizzard mistake of sorts was not visualising the dark elf arcane and moon goddess portions early on...but they did describe them though.

However people remember what they see more, and most dont read..,so when they look at nightnelves and see forest first they quickly associate them wrongly only with forest elves when that is are only part of them.

It took till Legion to see a full pre sundering night elf city and culture....or see Demon hunter lore fleshed. Wardens only properly appear in Legion too, and huntress units we saw in WoT were the first time ever in wow.

The misunderstanding of night elves has been exacerbated by slow development and long gaps between advancing them

[

[Rhlor]

--- snip ---

Darnassian culture today tolerates magicians, but they are a minor group without any power within society

When was the last time you saw a large group of Darnassian mages being actively important in Darnassian history? When was the last time a leader mage Darnassian to do something for Darnassian society and to be respected?

Darnassian magicians are not respected in Darnassian society, we see more of them in Kirin Tor than in Darnassian troops.

Mod Edit: Please don't quote a huge OP or reply to reply with a handful of sentences, snip or otherwise reduce the quoted post for ease of readership.

[Lothaeryn]

Night elves don't like cities, yet they ended up building darnassus (RIP darnassus btw)

Night elves don't like other types of elves, but will become allies to whoever enters the alliance, including void infused elves.


Gameplay always will ruin lore, and lore will hav to adapt. It is sad that the old cool lore keeps being ruined for the sake of new gameplay, but that's what an MMO like WoW requires.

not really, good MMO story writing involves working around those stigmas and previous narrative choices, and writing a script that adapts to new gameplay, using actual character growth and logic.

Blizzard has none of the tact required to write fanfiction, let alone an MMO story.

[ravenmoon]

Darnassian culture today tolerates magicians, but they are a minor group without any power within society

When was the last time you saw a large group of Darnassian mages being actively important in Darnassian history? When was the last time a leader mage Darnassian to do something for Darnassian society and to be respected?

Darnassian magicians are not respected in Darnassian society, we see more of them in Kirin Tor than in Darnassian troops.

Ah, this is exactly why this topic was made, taking a closer look and questioning some of those assumptions, examining them closer, and using what we know to paint a more accurate picture of what is going on there.


Okay, lets start addressing.
where do you think most of the focus on night elf development has been since cata? the work put into showing the mages, and the pre-sundering culture, the survivors of it, when nighte lves have shown up, representation wise, they've been on par with other groups, just in different areas.. the amount of lore.

I wouldn't say Darnassian culture tolerates magicians, -- that's just players importing their prejudices or imagining it might be so. They accepted the highborne back, they have built up the order, expanding it with new recruits, and returned highborne from amongst the darnassians that had put it off for the 10k year period, highborne that didn't join the Sunstriders.

That is not merely tolerating. there is no indication of a full love embrace either, but then night elf culture is quite order focused anyway, why would priests be excited about the arcane, they'd be a little concerned, might overcome their concerns and accept, but they won't be embracing.

Which is fine, what has been clarified here is that Darnassian culture is not an arcane culture, but an arcane culture exists within their highborne group. I think you would be very interested in reading the rest of this.

As for the last leader mage darnassian to do something for darnassian society to be respected.. well really, no one but tyrande, Malfurion have been active for the Darnassians in the War of thorns and darkshore warfront. however outside daranssian society, we have seen notable activity and accomplishments from Prince Farondis the highborne, Illidan the half demon.


As for the rest, a minor group without any power within the society? Well they are currently a smaller group, their influence is not quite known yet, we haven't had any cultural update outside indications of htier acceptance - but they were vital in WoT, so they are useful and valued. They wield the power of the arance, so I would not say they are without power - I don't think they are integrated enough or a part enough of Darnassian society to wield any political power - they seem to be their own society - but they are not monitored nor regulated as far as I know, their agreement was they operate as theyir own autonomous group.. which means they don't really interfere in the affairs of the rest of darnassian society - operating separately. Their power and expertise is considerable though in terms of what they can do, and achieve with it, they could rebuild the night elven cities working with the ancient trees - because they are the ones that did so in the first time - all those outstanding night elven wonder cities and wonders - well, WoTA trilogy tells us it was the highborne and Ancients weaving arcane and nature magic that built them, and the shend'ralar, were Queen Azshara's most revcered arcanist processing her top projects -(i.e. the really good stuff, the wow stuff - she would amaze and astound her people - these are the guys that worked it out and made it happen) and they have continued in the arcane just like the nightborne. They ma yb e small but they're growing, and they're highly knowledgeable, and highly talented.

[Rhlor]

Ah, this is exactly why this topic was made, taking a closer look and questioning some of those assumptions, examining them closer, and using what we know to paint a more accurate picture of what is going on there.


Okay, lets start addressing.
where do you think most of the focus on night elf development has been since cata? the work put into showing the mages, and the pre-sundering culture, the survivors of it, when nighte lves have shown up, representation wise, they've been on par with other groups, just in different areas.. the amount of lore.

I wouldn't say Darnassian culture tolerates magicians, -- that's just players importing their prejudices or imagining it might be so. They accepted the highborne back, they have built up the order, expanding it with new recruits, and returned highborne from amongst the darnassians that had put it off for the 10k year period, highborne that didn't join the Sunstriders.

That is not merely tolerating. there is no indication of a full love embrace either, but then night elf culture is quite order focused anyway, why would priests be excited about the arcane, they'd be a little concerned, might overcome their concerns and accept, but they won't be embracing.

Which is fine, what has been clarified here is that Darnassian culture is not an arcane culture, but an arcane culture exists within their highborne group. I think you would be very interested in reading the rest of this.

As for the last leader mage darnassian to do something for darnassian society to be respected.. well really, no one but tyrande, Malfurion have been active for the Darnassians in the War of thorns and darkshore warfront. however outside daranssian society, we have seen notable activity and accomplishments from Prince Farondis the highborne, Illidan the half demon.


As for the rest, a minor group without any power within the society? Well they are currently a smaller group, their influence is not quite known yet, we haven't had any cultural update outside indications of htier acceptance - but they were vital in WoT, so they are useful and valued. They wield the power of the arance, so I would not say they are without power - I don't think they are integrated enough or a part enough of Darnassian society to wield any political power - they seem to be their own society - but they are not monitored nor regulated as far as I know, their agreement was they operate as theyir own autonomous group.. which means they don't really interfere in the affairs of the rest of darnassian society - operating separately. Their power and expertise is considerable though in terms of what they can do, and achieve with it, they could rebuild the night elven cities working with the ancient trees - because they are the ones that did so in the first time - all those outstanding night elven wonder cities and wonders - well, WoTA trilogy tells us it was the highborne and Ancients weaving arcane and nature magic that built them, and the shend'ralar, were Queen Azshara's most revcered arcanist processing her top projects -(i.e. the really good stuff, the wow stuff - she would amaze and astound her people - these are the guys that worked it out and made it happen) and they have continued in the arcane just like the nightborne. They ma yb e small but they're growing, and they're highly knowledgeable, and highly talented.

farondis is not a darnassian and he is a undead, illidan was the leader of his own faction.
this is the time to show the darnassian magicians to be important in the fight against azshara but we see that the only important figure is shandris

[ravenmoon]

farondis is not a darnassian and he is a undead, illidan was the leader of his own faction.
this is the time to show the darnassian magicians to be important in the fight against azshara but we see that the only important figure is shandris

Why does everyon say Farondis is undead, I prefer to use the term unliving - but I guess I know what you all mean. He's not a corpse, he is not quite a ghost either, they are something else I really really hope get revived.

Sadly Rhlor .. I 100% agree, this was the time to show Darnassian magicians, night elf ones, Tyrande.. I'm more than a little disappointed that blizzard only gave Shandris a tiny role, then when asked why Tyrande wasn't playing a role against her arch enemy, their response was "well Tyrande already got enough exposure during the cheesy Darkshore warftont.. I mean WTF Blizzard????


At least Thalyssra got something - at least, so there is osme soft of night elf magic representation, but the kaldorei snub is just ..wtf? It's sorta ruined Naz'jatar for me.

[Beloren]

not really, good MMO story writing involves working around those stigmas and previous narrative choices, and writing a script that adapts to new gameplay, using actual character growth and logic.

Blizzard has none of the tact required to write fanfiction, let alone an MMO story.

I agree.. but I am not entirely sure this is the lore teams fault.. definitely blizzards fault, but i think it is this way because of hte constraints of telilng a story in this type of MMO and across several mediums.


However, they seem to just focus on one type of person or group, which is great if it's your fave, sucks if it isn't.. and so the wider context isn't properly portrayed.

I am not sure what they can do to redress this, outside perhaps give NPCs a lot more dialogue/text that explores these things in the areas they happening? Take the night elven city thing. It is obvious @RangerDaz comment was true for the night elves DURING but not true for the kaldorei AFTER the long vigil, and I am not even convinced you could confidently say they "didn't like cities" - they didn't have magic to rebuild cities or any of that old life, so avoided it altogehter - because of their task - had nothing to do with like. @ravenmoon is correct that druids wouldn't like cities, but it would be a generalisation to assume every night elf was like that - whether they revered the wilds or not. You can still revere the wilds and love cities, or build cities with great buildings and nature etc.


So fleshing more of the changes and advances that occur is something that the developers have to write in the mmo properly. Night elves in wow undergone a lot of change since WC3. WC3 ended the long vigil, and huge changes followed. WC3 ended the reason to stop using the arcane which has big impacts. Stigmas would change etc

[ravenmoon]

I agree.. but I am not entirely sure this is the lore teams fault.. definitely blizzards fault, but i think it is this way because of hte constraints of telilng a story in this type of MMO and across several mediums.


However, they seem to just focus on one type of person or group, which is great if it's your fave, sucks if it isn't.. and so the wider context isn't properly portrayed.

I am not sure what they can do to redress this, outside perhaps give NPCs a lot more dialogue/text that explores these things in the areas they happening? Take the night elven city thing. It is obvious @RangerDaz comment was true for the night elves DURING but not true for the kaldorei AFTER the long vigil, and I am not even convinced you could confidently say they "didn't like cities" - they didn't have magic to rebuild cities or any of that old life, so avoided it altogehter - because of their task - had nothing to do with like. @ravenmoon is correct that druids wouldn't like cities, but it would be a generalisation to assume every night elf was like that - whether they revered the wilds or not. You can still revere the wilds and love cities, or build cities with great buildings and nature etc.


So fleshing more of the changes and advances that occur is something that the developers have to write in the mmo properly. Night elves in wow undergone a lot of change since WC3. WC3 ended the long vigil, and huge changes followed. WC3 ended the reason to stop using the arcane which has big impacts. Stigmas would change etc

it’s not just the WC3 transition… night elves mad a similar transition when the sundering happened, furthermore, the events of legion expansion have a lot of key revelations and devlopments that would certainly further change impressions, stigmas etc – like arcane addiction curing, knowledge of prevention, Illidan and the illidari being right and not betrayers = the well of eternity as nomistake, wrong about prevention of arcane magic the only way to stop the demons returning, their Magic well being the goal of the legion. . The night elves are incredibly intelilgetn people, even moer so during the pre-sundering era, but they are not infallible nor omniscient, the recent revelations would have impacts,

At the very least a lot of stigma or retiicne/suspicion otwards the arcane that millennia would have fostered in some of the long vigil group would now change. It doesn’t mean all druids and priests would now start using or embracing the arcane again, but it should kill off reticence and fear towards it, which is a good and sensible change that needs to happen. Night elves are not defined by fear of the arcane or hatred towards it – not when they’re made from the stuff, have been surrounded by it and empowered by it hteir entire existence and utilised it in one form other (whether passively through moonwells or actively through spellwork)

So if our impression of them is based on that, then ofc this would change – it is a natural development that shows the consequences of events on races and peoples that it impacts.

This is a good thing in a story, it is interesting to have the night elves have a great arcane civilization, then it gets destroyed which prompts a radical change in lifestyle for specific lore defined reasons, then the need for that changes again 10,000 years later, which would again prompt another change in lifestyle - it shows the journey of a race and people and the steps they go along that fit their racial make up and changes they have to make based on circumstance.

Their racial make up is an arcane affinity race that loves nature and is inherently good. They love the arcane naturally, as well as the nature and their Goddes.. that is their racial make up. The events in their story show an era where teheir arcane love got out of hand and led to one of htie rleading castes doing a terrible ting, followed by an era where they had to avoid using one of the htings they loved most, and thereofore only had two of the other things they loved in their lives. When that period ends, it changes again. The arcane they love can return, and we see in stages it increase and the reason for fearing and avoiding it change.. it is an interesting story of development and change.

But to then lock them into one phase or state, like in WC3 and assume they don’t change.. now this is erroneous. I am still convinced the most attractive thing about WC3 night elves was that they were dangerous .. or we saw tehir dangerous edge – this is what wow lacks, which has a lot of hteir benevolent side, but then when battle and war comes both in CAta and in WoT – they are easily beaten rather than seeing that sharp dangerous edge come out, even in defeat.

@formerShandalay I think you would find what I wrote quite interesting.

[Beloren]

Darnassian culture today tolerates magicians, but they are a minor group without any power within society

When was the last time you saw a large group of Darnassian mages being actively important in Darnassian history? When was the last time a leader mage Darnassian to do something for Darnassian society and to be respected?

Darnassian magicians are not respected in Darnassian society, we see more of them in Kirin Tor than in Darnassian troops.

Mod Edit: Please don't quote a huge OP or reply to reply with a handful of sentences, snip or otherwise reduce the quoted post for ease of readership.

I think I summed up his post quite well here:

I can summarise all you are saying in bullet points.

• Night elves don't have an arcane culture but they have an arcane community.
• Their arcane community has an arcane culture
• Their arcane community is not the same reckless/addicted/arrogant community prevalent around the invasion.
• An overall night elf new culture is forming and will have elements of the cultures practiced by its various Orders and groups.

• The Arcane is a core part of the Night elves;
  But practice of it isn't, that is only part of the highborne community.

• Arcane practice is not society wide today amongst the night elves as it was in the pre-sundering era,
  But it happens just as tenaciously and advanced amongst the Darnassian highborne community as it does nightborne or other highborne offshoots like high elves and blood elves.

• Night elf society contrasts because only their highborne use the arcane for sorcery, while in the other societies, its use is more prevalent society wide, with the highest amongst the nightborne who maintain the pre-sundering era society wide level of use.

• Night elves don't hate the arcane, but hate reckless, arrogant and irresponsible users that get addicted - as this was the characteristic of the night elves who brought the legion.

The Arcane (not arcane practice) is a core part of the night elves because:

• They are made from the arcane
• It's energy and arcane source has always been a part of them
• They've always used the arcane in one form or the other: For spells and passively in pre-sundering era, passively in the long vigil
• Well of Eternity has been a core part of their race in all eras, and they've been surrounded by its energy.
• Long Vigil society used the arcane well for moonwells and boosting the land.
• Though banning using the arcane for spells, the arcane was still present in wells and moonwells.
• The priests and druids use arcane energy spells from the stars and moon
• The skin colour and eye glow of the night elves is because of their arcane make up.
• The night elves throughout their history in both pre-sundering and long vigil era have use the arcane in tandem with nature, and have benefited from it.
• Night elves have always had arcane using communities since the start: while the long vigil stopped arcane practice, the nightborne, highborne and Moonguard groups did not. They are also night elven.

There ya go.. easy peasy. Condensed. You could probably condense it more like use 3 points for the arcane core part. I'll demonstrated again soon.

[Lothaeryn]

I agree.. but I am not entirely sure this is the lore teams fault.. definitely blizzards fault, but i think it is this way because of hte constraints of telilng a story in this type of MMO and across several mediums.


However, they seem to just focus on one type of person or group, which is great if it's your fave, sucks if it isn't.. and so the wider context isn't properly portrayed.

I am not sure what they can do to redress this, outside perhaps give NPCs a lot more dialogue/text that explores these things in the areas they happening? Take the night elven city thing. It is obvious @RangerDaz comment was true for the night elves DURING but not true for the kaldorei AFTER the long vigil, and I am not even convinced you could confidently say they "didn't like cities" - they didn't have magic to rebuild cities or any of that old life, so avoided it altogehter - because of their task - had nothing to do with like. @ravenmoon is correct that druids wouldn't like cities, but it would be a generalisation to assume every night elf was like that - whether they revered the wilds or not. You can still revere the wilds and love cities, or build cities with great buildings and nature etc.


So fleshing more of the changes and advances that occur is something that the developers have to write in the mmo properly. Night elves in wow undergone a lot of change since WC3. WC3 ended the long vigil, and huge changes followed. WC3 ended the reason to stop using the arcane which has big impacts. Stigmas would change etc

I agree, its not 100% the lore team's fault, but at the same time they need to have some assertive agency to try and get proper context introduced in patches. I think the idea of having random NPC's give minor rumors and thoughts during new content areas would add a giant breadth of context and narrative exploration that often is only seen in single player games like The Elder Scrolls. Having the going's on and new frontier kind of storytelling would allow some room for new content to not be hamfisted with lore and narrative background to explain and justify new content.

the problem with this method is that Blizzard doesnt seem to keep track of its own lore or even their design decisions when moving forward, Red Shirt guy kind of gave a glimpse at how Blizzard's design philosophy works: Forget/ignore the past, worry/look at the future.

As for named NPC's garnering attention for the Kaldorei's lack of a magical authority, Estulan I think is the perfect candidate. Hes a reserved recluse whose knowledge in the Ancient version of arcane practices is seldom matched. He's described as estranged from his Shen'Dralar kinsmen, and was "hard to work with" in the words of a few Night Elf/Worgen NPC's. Using him as a arcane or moralistic foil that re-introduces arcane practices to the greater half of Kaldorei society could set up really good storytelling in the future.

It also opens an easy way to reclaim Eldre'Thalas as a capital hub in Feralas, since his main objective since rejoining Kaldorei society has been purging Dire Maul of its Ogre occupants and restoring the city. It would be touching if since cataclysm he managed to succeed and invites the Darnassian elves in helping rebuild the city as a gesture of good faith.

[ravenmoon]

As for named NPC's garnering attention for the Kaldorei's lack of a magical authority, Estulan I think is the perfect candidate. Hes a reserved recluse whose knowledge in the Ancient version of arcane practices is seldom matched. He's described as estranged from his Shen'Dralar kinsmen, and was "hard to work with" in the words of a few Night Elf/Worgen NPC's. Using him as a arcane or moralistic foil that re-introduces arcane practices to the greater half of Kaldorei society could set up really good storytelling in the future.

It also opens an easy way to reclaim Eldre'Thalas as a capital hub in Feralas, since his main objective since rejoining Kaldorei society has been purging Dire Maul of its Ogre occupants and restoring the city. It would be touching if since cataclysm he managed to succeed and invites the Darnassian elves in helping rebuild the city as a gesture of good faith.

That's a bloody good suggestion.. anyway why is it that blizzard hasn't employed more of this kinda thing...? In some cases they have showed they certainly done their homework very well - suramar in Legion was lifted out of the WotA trilogy pages and given a lot more depth and life - the detail was incredible... like the lore and arts team really got it.. and sometimes the references they pick up....

But other times, you're like.. wtf... this is almost downright sloppy, or surely they could have done more. Why is it that they haven't used NPCs more like this anyway? I wouldn't imagine it being hard to write text and dialogue, flesh out things too, adding to what the art is showing? Anyone? @Aucald maybe @Redshirt guy?

[Mace]

On thinking about the newly rebuilt /reformed highborne order amongst the Darnassians, and how it is markedly differnet from the nightbonre and their invarsion period highborne culture.. It gave me an idea on How to increase nightborne/night elf enmity

There is an avenue for development there.. the nightborne as pre-sundering invasion period kalodrei society that the night elves hate could be used to create enmity between night elves and nightborne.

So write the nightborne more like we saw them in 7.0 and less like the nightborne rebellion, have them abuse the arcan’dor too, instead of living in balance, instead to glut on more magic without the consequence…

Contrast the night elven highborne as restored highborne, Farondis type, nthe noble kaldorei arcane user before addiction overcame most of the caste. Then have them condemn the nightborne as fallen highborne, and the blood elves as corrupt descendants.

Don’t make it simple though, have elements within the nightborne that aren’t in line with the approach, trying to get their coleagues to be responsible – have them secretly working with kaldorei valewalkers (you can have a potential defecetion story there)

From the nightborne perspective, show it’s not all about addiction, but it’s clearly their method and philosophy, some are callous but not all either.
Thehigh elves and void elves re distinguished to the night elves and theirhhighborne as nobler stock, the void elves are noble dangerous, like the Illidari but without the stench of fel corruption they must carry – their acceptance of void elves and illidari is viewed as hypocritical by the blood elves and nightborne – the night elves insist they are not the same.

Night elves who still don’t trust illidari and while they now believe they were neve r legion agenst, they don’t trust them one iota. On the flip side the illidari have a lot of admirerers amongst younger night elven males, polairising some, while some hearken to the benevolent druid and highborne ilk, others hearken to the aggressive, fight fire with fire type the Ilidari hearkened too

Void elves have a faction within them that want to study the blackmoon phenomena and are lead to Elune worship from the void side. This faction of void elves get more acceptance within the priesthood, but a re a contentious topic, the Wardens view htem as dangerous live wires, but he goddesss gives her approval aligning the priests with them, the sentinesl are suspicious and on guard against everything. The highborne are a bit nervous, not wanting to lose the confidence and trust they have with the wider kaldorei community for restoring magical practices amongst the kaldorei.

An example of dangerous but noble in the void elves is there general attitude, when they do void stuff,t hey don’t think themselves too arrogant to contrl more than they can..take that void T-rex in the warfront assault they summon up, they know the beast can grow to level where its power eclipse theirs, if they were arrogant with hubris, they’d think they can handle more and more of its power nad control it beyond their limits, but being responsible means they would end theritual before that point, not going further than they can handle.

Especially if they contrast them with the highborne, who :

[Beloren]

On thinking about the newly rebuilt /reformed highborne order amongst the Darnassians, and how it is markedly differnet from the nightbonre and their invarsion period highborne culture.. It gave me an idea on How to increase nightborne/night elf enmity

There is an avenue for development there.. the nightborne as pre-sundering invasion period kalodrei society that the night elves hate could be used to create enmity between night elves and nightborne.

So write the nightborne more like we saw them in 7.0 and less like the nightborne rebellion, have them abuse the arcan’dor too, instead of living in balance, instead to glut on more magic without the consequence…

Contrast the night elven highborne as restored highborne, Farondis type, nthe noble kaldorei arcane user before addiction overcame most of the caste. Then have them condemn the nightborne as fallen highborne, and the blood elves as corrupt descendants.

Don’t make it simple though, have elements within the nightborne that aren’t in line with the approach, trying to get their coleagues to be responsible – have them secretly working with kaldorei valewalkers (you can have a potential defecetion story there)

From the nightborne perspective, show it’s not all about addiction, but it’s clearly their method and philosophy, some are callous but not all either.
Thehigh elves and void elves re distinguished to the night elves and theirhhighborne as nobler stock, the void elves are noble dangerous, like the Illidari but without the stench of fel corruption they must carry – their acceptance of void elves and illidari is viewed as hypocritical by the blood elves and nightborne – the night elves insist they are not the same.

Night elves who still don’t trust illidari and while they now believe they were neve r legion agenst, they don’t trust them one iota. On the flip side the illidari have a lot of admirerers amongst younger night elven males, polairising some, while some hearken to the benevolent druid and highborne ilk, others hearken to the aggressive, fight fire with fire type the Ilidari hearkened too

Void elves have a faction within them that want to study the blackmoon phenomena and are lead to Elune worship from the void side. This faction of void elves get more acceptance within the priesthood, but a re a contentious topic, the Wardens view htem as dangerous live wires, but he goddesss gives her approval aligning the priests with them, the sentinesl are suspicious and on guard against everything. The highborne are a bit nervous, not wanting to lose the confidence and trust they have with the wider kaldorei community for restoring magical practices amongst the kaldorei.

An example of dangerous but noble in the void elves is there general attitude, when they do void stuff,t hey don’t think themselves too arrogant to contrl more than they can..take that void T-rex in the warfront assault they summon up, they know the beast can grow to level where its power eclipse theirs, if they were arrogant with hubris, they’d think they can handle more and more of its power nad control it beyond their limits, but being responsible means they would end theritual before that point, not going further than they can handle.

Especially if they contrast them with the highborne, who :

Personally, I think the elf on elf fighting is enough between blood elves and each of the alliance elves.

I think fans would welcome the opposite for a change between Kaldorei and shal’dorei, who seemed very connected in 7.0 - they should build them up in friendship from there as a contrast that shows elven groups instead coming together.