Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[FlubberPuddy]

You know, I was walking to the store and was reflecting a bit on this very important matter(:>). So to be a Lightforged Draenei you have to go through that ritual. But what are they before they go through that? Do the LF Draenei mom and LF Draenei dad make a LF Draenei baby or a Draenei baby? I would guess the latter seeing they have that ritual no? If not they wouldn't have to do that I assume? T'Partoos is a regular Draenei. So LF Draenei being a race is kind of not true in the bigger picture. And there lies the point. Playable races in WoW is set in stone. If you choose a LF Draenei you are a LF Draenei, not a Draenei. But looking at it from outside, and into the story instead, it's not that simple. A LF Draenei could easily be a regular Draenei that just performs that ritual. Doesn't make them another race. Just on the character screen.

Same with Void Elves. No one is born a Void Elf. The playable and npc Void Elves are all Blood Elves, aka High Elves before they go through the let's say, ritual. Every Void Elf we see in game, be it playable or npcs are Thalassian Elves that was Blood/High Elves for centuries/milleniums before that. They are still Blood Elves, aka High Elves, no matter how much they transform. In 1000s of years when the Void Elves breeds Void Elf kids, I might see it differently

I am just thinking out loud here, what is and what isn't, its pretty interesting seeing how races works when it comes to the game, vs the "real story" of the inhabitants of Azeroth, and the Great Beyond. It's nice though to discuss like this, makes you think of stuff in another way than just the game we play.

Who would want to see a Void Elf baby btw?

This type of thinking is supported by official developer commentary on the Worgen.

"Worgen are not technically a race and thus cannot reproduce like one. The worgen curse is just a curse. Its origins are rooted in the druidic pack form that was later altered by the Scythe of Elune. The end result is worgen we see today, beings that can transmit their affliction to others via a single bite. In theory, if two worgen were to mate and produce an offspring, that offspring would not be a worgen. The child would merely possess the genetic material of his or her parents, like any other child sans the curse.[17]"

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Worgen

The answer comes from an Ask CDev Round 4.

So a child of two Worgen cursed parents would come out as a regular human kid.

This is why it's mere gameplay distinction that when we "select a race" in the character creation, that's just to simplify for ease of game use to say, "hey you're picking a Worgen" instead of going "yeah this is a human too, but it's a Gilnean Human that's been cursed".

What is much more succinct? [Cursed Gilnean Humans] or [Worgen]. Rhetorical question btw.

This game is made up of playing many types of fantasies, if you want to play as a regular joe-schmo human, you pick [Human], if you want to play as a cursed human you pick [Worgen], if you want to play as a dead human you pick [Undead], if you want to play a big burly/thicc human you pick [Kul Tiran].

They are all humans, just different kinds of fantasy. That's why it continues to be silly when people say if you want to play a High Elf, just play a Blood Elf. The fantasy of a Blood Elf is not the fantasy of a High Elf.

High Elves didn't enslave a Naaru, feed on creatures, utilize fel magic, stay haughty/pompous, form the Blood Knights, utilize Blood Magic, display elven superiority, join the Horde. This is all Blood Elf fantasy.

High Elves fed on arcane objects, or dealt with their magical withdrawal through sheer will, they're not haughty/pompous at all and humble themselves with their allies, stayed within the Alliance despite their nation seceding. I mean in essence, these guys are the "joe-schmoe humans" of Elves. They're the base Eevee before any evolution. This is the High Elf fantasy being requested.

High Elves also didn't join the Horde, accept the Blood Elf name, not like the Horde, delve into void magic, get cast out by for their void studies, get almost turned into an ethereal and churned out into a Void being, dealing with maddening whispers (apparently), and re-join the Alliance. This is Void Elf fantasy.

[matrix123mko]

Perfect. You shown exactly why my favourite races are superior to these overestimated Alliance amish crybabies.

[Doffen]

This type of thinking is supported by official developer commentary on the Worgen.

"Worgen are not technically a race and thus cannot reproduce like one. The worgen curse is just a curse. Its origins are rooted in the druidic pack form that was later altered by the Scythe of Elune. The end result is worgen we see today, beings that can transmit their affliction to others via a single bite. In theory, if two worgen were to mate and produce an offspring, that offspring would not be a worgen. The child would merely possess the genetic material of his or her parents, like any other child sans the curse.[17]"

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Worgen

The answer comes from an Ask CDev Round 4.

So a child of two Worgen cursed parents would come out as a regular human kid.

This is why it's mere gameplay distinction that when we "select a race" in the character creation, that's just to simplify for ease of game use to say, "hey you're picking a Worgen" instead of going "yeah this is a human too, but it's a Gilnean Human that's been cursed".

What is much more succinct? [Cursed Gilnean Humans] or [Worgen]. Rhetorical question btw.

This game is made up of playing many types of fantasies, if you want to play as a regular joe-schmo human, you pick [Human], if you want to play as a cursed human you pick [Worgen], if you want to play as a dead human you pick [Undead], if you want to play a big burly/thicc human you pick [Kul Tiran].

They are all humans, just different kinds of fantasy. That's why it continues to be silly when people say if you want to play a High Elf, just play a Blood Elf. The fantasy of a Blood Elf is not the fantasy of a High Elf.

High Elves didn't enslave a Naaru, feed on creatures, utilize fel magic, stay haughty/pompous, form the Blood Knights, utilize Blood Magic, display elven superiority, join the Horde. This is all Blood Elf fantasy.

High Elves fed on arcane objects, or dealt with their magical withdrawal through sheer will, they're not haughty/pompous at all and humble themselves with their allies, stayed within the Alliance despite their nation seceding. I mean in essence, these guys are the "joe-schmoe humans" of Elves. They're the base Eevee before any evolution. This is the High Elf fantasy being requested.

High Elves also didn't join the Horde, accept the Blood Elf name, not like the Horde, delve into void magic, get cast out by for their void studies, get almost turned into an ethereal and churned out into a Void being, dealing with maddening whispers (apparently), and re-join the Alliance. This is Void Elf fantasy.

This is pretty much my stance on it as well. Fantasy is what makes one type of the race different from the other types of same race. Like worgens and Kul Tiran. Both just as much Humans. Or well, Kul Tiran a bit more human if you know what I mean *wink wink*. Like the Alliance High Elf fantasy vs Void Elf fantasy, or Blood Elf fantasy. All are from the same race, just different. And that's practically what the Allied Races are as well as some of the core races. Just something else of that race.

We don't really have that many playable "races" lorewise in WoW if you think about it. Just on the character screen :>

[vertigo12]

You know, I was walking to the store and was reflecting a bit on this very important matter(:>). So to be a Lightforged Draenei you have to go through that ritual. But what are they before they go through that? Do the LF Draenei mom and LF Draenei dad make a LF Draenei baby or a Draenei baby? I would guess the latter seeing they have that ritual no? If not they wouldn't have to do that I assume? T'Partoos is a regular Draenei. So LF Draenei being a race is kind of not true in the bigger picture. And there lies the point. Playable races in WoW is set in stone. If you choose a LF Draenei you are a LF Draenei, not a Draenei. But looking at it from outside, and into the story instead, it's not that simple. A LF Draenei could easily be a regular Draenei that just performs that ritual. Doesn't make them another race. Just on the character screen.

Same with Void Elves. No one is born a Void Elf. The playable and npc Void Elves are all Blood Elves, aka High Elves before they go through the let's say, ritual. Every Void Elf we see in game, be it playable or npcs are Thalassian Elves that was Blood/High Elves for centuries/milleniums before that. They are still Blood Elves, aka High Elves, no matter how much they transform. In 1000s of years when the Void Elves breeds Void Elf kids, I might see it differently

I am just thinking out loud here, what is and what isn't, its pretty interesting seeing how races works when it comes to the game, vs the "real story" of the inhabitants of Azeroth, and the Great Beyond. It's nice though to discuss like this, makes you think of stuff in another way than just the game we play.

Who would want to see a Void Elf baby btw?

LF Human Turalyon x Void Elf Alleria having a new baby.
That's demi voided lightforged human /elf . Is definitely way beyind the norm.

[eScar95]

Perfect. You shown exactly why my favourite races are superior to these overestimated Alliance amish crybabies.

Glad to be of service.

[Neverafter]

Obviously the following is personal opinion.

I believe High Elves are more a question of when at this point and not if. There is loose support from former and current Blizzard employees and the community at large. Blizzard being Blizzard though must be cautious on how they implement them.

I don't see them becoming a fully independent race, at least not yet/soon. With all the elves introduced already in BFA and their original plans not involving High Elves at all, it is unlikely they would change coarse so soon.

This is what I would like to see, both short term and long term.

In the short term, have a small questline in the BFA Outro/Pre Order 9.0 patch (similar to when Nightbourne and Void Elves were added for BFA) involving a small group of Silver Covenant members undergoing the Void Elf transformation. Require a 120 Void Elf, get an ingame mail that starts the quest and has you meet a Silver Covenant guard in the Dalaran Underbelly. You act as the liaison between him/her and a small group that wish to join the Void Elves and directly fight the Horde after all the evil they have seen and refuse to remain neutral, directly engaging the Horde. Along with fairer skin options, High Elven Heritage armor and mounts could be unlocked. They would retain more of their High Elven appearance outside of battle, but undergo all the Void Elven transformations during battle. They could even add Paladins as a playable class. (Horde would aslo receive a questline involving Nightborne culminating in additional appearance options and Druid as playable class based on High Botanist Tel'Arn's teachings.)

Long term, I would like to see High Elves more involved in Alliance activities. The Silver Covenant forgoes all allusions of neutrality, fully support the Alliance and are front and center for most of if not all of an expansion cycle. This would allow Blizzard to fully flesh out all the cultural and lore differences (or even retcon more if they want) between Blood Elves and High Elves. Then they could introduce a true High Elven option in an expansion or 2 in the future.

In the short term, those who want a more High Elven appearance can get it, and it also helps build up lore for Void Elves. Because the number would be so small and made more or less in secret in the Underbelly, it wouldn't detract from possible lore of High Elves in the future.

[Chain Chungus]

Alliance High Elves need the Suramar treatment at this point. With this much hype, nothing less will do.

[Obelisk Kai]

That can hardly be considered as a basis since in the Alliance scenario we absolutely don't know what happened in the Sunwell. And the Void elves were already exiled when the Horde scenario occurs. But again, it shows to Horde players that the Sunwell is extremely vulnerable to void energies. Why bother showing this in a Nightborne quest ? That's interesting.

But yea, this is just speculation from me, and I hope it comes true. But I'm pretty confident on it.

How can you argue that? That just because those in the Alliance might not be directly aware of what happened in the Nightborne scenario that the aspects you cannot be the basis for the Void Elf scenario?

They've done this in the past. The Forsaken questing experience in Silverpine forest is a direct continuation of the Worgen levelling experience. In order to truly the Silverpine storyline, you need to have done the Worgen opening. They clearly have no problem with presenting the story in a disjointed fashion. I am not saying that is a good thing, but it is something they are doing.

As to why they are showing players, not just Horde players but all players, why the Sunwell is extremely vulnerable to void energies, I thought the answer to that was self-evident. They showed us that to underline why Umbric and his group of followers were exiled in the first place, why they were open to joining the Alliance after their transformation and why there is a huge split between the Blood Elves and the Void Elves.

Everything you have cited makes perfect sense when viewed through the lens of prepping the ground for the Void Elf scenario which was likely written at the same time as the Nightborne one. We have the danger the void poses to the Blood Elves, we have Magister Umbric's group mentioned, we have the bad guy FOR the Void Elf scenario make his first appearance.

You are speculating. Speculation is fine. But you are speculating with weak evidence and unjustified confidence.

- - - Updated - - -

But they are still High Elves(Blood Elves). There is nothing you can say that change that fact. The Lightforged Draeneir and Nightborne used 1000s of years to evolve into what they are now. The Void Elves did this very recently, and what I write next is speculation as well, but I am pretty sure some of the Void Elves see themselves as Blood Elves still.

As was pointed out elsewhere, the Lightforged Draenei are transformed in an instant through the power of the light. What happened to Void Elves could therefore be seeing as 'voidforging' to coin a term.

The Void Elves refer to themselves as Void Elves, Ren'Dorei. Unlike with the Blood/High Elf terminology split, there is an actual substantive difference backing up the name change.

Void Elves are close to Blood/High Elves. They are a variant, not an entirely brand new race. But it is precisely because they are a variant that I am able to say they are not High Elves. Perhaps the better universal term for these Elves is 'Thalassian'.

Bolded part is a very weird statement seeing as most people here want the Alliance High Elves to be different than the Blood Elves. And personally I like Void Elves more than regular High Elves, so it's not a stick towards me neither. I think it's more the other way around, that someone doesn't want Alliance High Elves to be a subject as Allied Race anymore so they see suggestions ingame that all the Alliance High Elves will be Void Elves as truth.

Alliance High Elves cannot be different from Blood Elves as Blood Elves are High Elves. To ask for High Elves that are different from Blood Elves is to ask for Blizzard to recreate the wheel in such a way that the wheel is not round. That is impossible.

Void Elves are clearly the result of an internal iterative process within Blizzard that likely began as soon as Alliance High Elves were rejected as an Allied race on the grounds of the damage they would do the divide between the two factions. That if we cannot give the Alliance a race identical to a Horde race, can we give them something similar.

Void Elves are Alliance thalassian elves. They are clearly different than Blood Elves. Therefore, those asking for Alliance thalassian elves that are different from Blood Elves have their answer.

And given that Void Elves can convert other willing thalassian elves into Void Elves, those who argue they want to play an Elf that has been loyal to the Alliance since Warcraft 2 also have their answer, in that they can play their Void Elf as one of those Elves.

- - - Updated - - -

snip

You stated that no Blood Elf had ever reverted to a High Elf

[B]Just as a Void Elf cannot unbecome back to a Blood Elf, we have yet to see a Blood Elf go back to being a High Elf. It's a one way trip as far as evidenced by the game. .

The only way the Elves of Quel'lithien lodge make sense is if they did exactly that. This proves it is not a 'one way trip' as you put it, equivalent to the transformation into a Void Elf.

[SaneOstrich]

In the end I think it simply boils down to the fact that blizzard is fundamentally opposed to playable high elves, and the only argument for that is that they aren't.

Could that change? Sure, blizzard can do whatever the hell they want. But atleast uptill now they simply don't want it as an option. And we have zero evidence that that is about to change.

[Aldo Hawk]

In the end I think it simply boils down to the fact that blizzard is fundamentally opposed to playable high elves, and the only argument for that is that they aren't.

Could that change? Sure, blizzard can do whatever the hell they want. But atleast uptill now they simply don't want it as an option. And we have zero evidence that that is about to change.

But that's the reason these threads are created. To show that it's legitimate and that people want them.

[Obelisk Kai]

In the end I think it simply boils down to the fact that blizzard is fundamentally opposed to playable high elves, and the only argument for that is that they aren't.

Could that change? Sure, blizzard can do whatever the hell they want. But atleast uptill now they simply don't want it as an option. And we have zero evidence that that is about to change.

Well that's one way to compress 566 pages of arguments into four lines.

[SaneOstrich]

No, please do continue. Theorycrafting for the win.

- - - Updated - - -

But that's the reason these threads are created. To show that it's legitimate and that people want them.

Legitimate is a tricky term imo, in a discussion about an IP. Theorycrafting is al good fun, but in the end it's in the of the IP owner what happens.

Not saying that you do, but the moment anyone thinks they have any legitimate claim over what happens any point of argument is lost.

And that is essentially the point of my comment, theorycrafting is one of the most fun things to do, but in the end it's up to the creators. Wether you like that or not.

[FlubberPuddy]

You stated that no Blood Elf had ever reverted to a High Elf

The only way the Elves of Quel'lithien lodge make sense is if they did exactly that. This proves it is not a 'one way trip' as you put it, equivalent to the transformation into a Void Elf.

When I say “High Elf” it is always referring to Alliance High Elves since that is what this entire discussion is in the context about. And I see that you latched onto your red herring of using neutral High Elves and made your point with that.

Completely missing and/or ignoring that I explained how equating neutral High Elves to Alliance High Elves (which are who these threads are about) would be akin to equating the Scryers as Horde Blood Elves. Very nonsensical, you’re losing your touch.

I am glad that the rest of my argument stands to which you can’t seem to argue against. That’s enough for me.

Missing the point is typically the only way those against High Elves being playable have a leg to stand on.

[Monster Hunter]

Well that's one way to compress 566 pages of arguments into four lines.

He's not wrong though. The arguments on here are pointless, they likely don't even read them or keep up with this thread. It's probly not even something there interested in at all atm considering the other things they have to fix.

[FlubberPuddy]

And that is essentially the point of my comment, theorycrafting is one of the most fun things to do, but in the end it's up to the creators. Wether you like that or not.

This is 100% truth. The moment any player here thinks they have sway is the moment they enter into delusions about how game development works.

Can players possibly convince the developers? Yes, of course. But in the end it will always be their decision whether they go through with something or not.

[Aldo Hawk]

Obviously when I mention that this has legitimacy I specifically refer for the request not being just filled with made up things.

It all makes sense within the current game, it's not asking for a fanmade idea.

[Doffen]

As was pointed out elsewhere, the Lightforged Draenei are transformed in an instant through the power of the light. What happened to Void Elves could therefore be seeing as 'voidforging' to coin a term.

Yeah, and that doesn't change what race they are, just in game as a playable character. If you go behind that, and follow the story, a Lightforged Draenei is just a Draenei that went through some ritual. Same with Void Elf. They can do that willingly, Blood Elves and High Elves alike. Though so far we only know of Blood Elves that has done that, rest is just speculation as of now. Even so, when they go through that ritual, do they lose all their High/Blood Elven characterization then? They change color, that's it. You can choose a Void Elf without tentacles(but that ain't cool!) so all they change is the color of their skin. You can name them Thalassian if you like, there is little difference. I can even ask, what difference is there in naming them Thalassian vs High Elves? I mean we can go and just name them Thalassian Elves, because they are.

The Void Elves refer to themselves as Void Elves, Ren'Dorei. Unlike with the Blood/High Elf terminology split, there is an actual substantive difference backing up the name change.

Void Elves are close to Blood/High Elves. They are a variant, not an entirely brand new race. But it is precisely because they are a variant that I am able to say they are not High Elves. Perhaps the better universal term for these Elves is 'Thalassian'.

They are not close, they are Blood Elves. It's backed up by the story we have of them.

Alliance High Elves cannot be different from Blood Elves as Blood Elves are High Elves. To ask for High Elves that are different from Blood Elves is to ask for Blizzard to recreate the wheel in such a way that the wheel is not round. That is impossible.

Heh, they gave us Void Elf. That wheel is spinning. And it's not my words, quite a few people here in this very thread wants something that makes them different from Blood Elves. Though in my opinion, Void Elves fill that cup for me at least. I wasn't even aware that there was a High Elf community after we got Void Elves, after they were announced at least, and as always, Void Elves are awesome.

Void Elves are clearly the result of an internal iterative process within Blizzard that likely began as soon as Alliance High Elves were rejected as an Allied race on the grounds of the damage they would do the divide between the two factions. That if we cannot give the Alliance a race identical to a Horde race, can we give them something similar.

Sure, we have always agreed on that, me and you.

Void Elves are Alliance thalassian elves. They are clearly different than Blood Elves. Therefore, those asking for Alliance thalassian elves that are different from Blood Elves have their answer.

Skin color is the difference, tentacles in their hair if you like. That the Void Elves are that different from Blood Elves, that we do not agree on

And given that Void Elves can convert other willing thalassian elves into Void Elves, those who argue they want to play an Elf that has been loyal to the Alliance since Warcraft 2 also have their answer, in that they can play their Void Elf as one of those Elves.

We'll see how it will pan out.

[FlubberPuddy]

Obviously when I mention that this has legitimacy I specifically refer for the request not being just filled with made up things.

It all makes sense within the current game, it's not asking for a fanmade idea.

This is also true.

[Obelisk Kai]

When I say “High Elf” it is always referring to Alliance High Elves since that is what this entire discussion is in the context about. And I see that you latched onto your red herring of using neutral High Elves and made your point with that.

Completely missing and/or ignoring that I explained how equating neutral High Elves to Alliance High Elves (which are who these threads are about) would be akin to equating the Scryers as Horde Blood Elves. Very nonsensical, you’re losing your touch.

I am glad that the rest of my argument stands to which you can’t seem to argue against. That’s enough for me.

Missing the point is typically the only way those against High Elves being playable have a leg to stand on.

The Quel'lithien Elves, now all dead, were not neutral. They were friendly to Alliance players in classic but were hostile to Horde. The lore surrounding them strongly hints, as you say, that 'there is nothing to suggest they were an official part of it. It is strongly suggested in In the Shadow of the Sun that the lodge was autonomous and received no outside support.' In other words, they were Alliance aligned but not Alliance members.

Yet you then presume that they can be neatly separated from other groups of Alliance High Elves because those High Elves would clearly be full members of the Alliance, whereas Quel'lithien was 'neutral'. Yet this is where your argument completely falls apart.

Alliance High Elves is a curious term. It's one I've used a lot to differentiate the group you apparently want to play from Blood Elves (who are High Elves) by focusing on the one point of division, the political alignment of these Elves to the Alliance.

But never have I agreed that these Elves are fully fledged members of the Alliance. There is a difference between Alliance aligned and Alliance membership.

The Quel'lithien lodge shows it is possible for groups to be Alliance aligned and friendly to the Alliance without actually being in the Alliance. And this is important, because when I say 'Alliance High Elves' I really mean the only group of Alliance High Elves that matters, the Silver Covenant

If the Silver Covenant is a part of the Alliance, where are they now during the current war? Why aren't they on the front lines battling besides their fellow members of the Alliance? Sure there are two elven NPCs on the warships in the warfront whom the data flags as Silver Covenant, but they are there as part of the 7th Legion, wearing 7th Legion uniforms. The Silver Covenant itself is nowhere to be seen.

In the long history of WoW, the Silver Covenant has only directly engaged the forces of the Horde ONCE. During Mists of Pandaria, when Dalaran joined the Alliance. Yet now, Dalaran is neutral and there is no sign of the Silver Covenant. In fact, almost every occasion the Silver Covenant has played a role in game has been related to Dalaran. The times they had a role in the story were all expansions where Dalaran was predominantly featured (WOTLK, MOP, Legion).

You brought up the topic of hearthstone cards recently. The wiki for Hearthstone has pages which list cards by race. Only three High Elf cards exist, one of which is Veressa Windrunner, and all three were added in the most recent expansion.

And what was the most recent expansion about? A heist on Dalaran

You yourself have provided the precedent that explains this apparent paradox. The Silver Covenant is not a part of the Alliance. Like Quel'lithien lodge, they are Alliance aligned but not a formal part of the Alliance. The Sunreavers were in a similar situation prior to their eviction, Horde aligned but not a formal part of the Horde. Following their eviction, Lor'themar commanded that the Sunreavers be integrated into the Blood Elven military. That they were not integrated before this, and that Aethas publicly declared Dalaran was their home, parallels the situation the Silver Covenant is in.

Which means the number of high elves who are genuinely a part of the Alliance is even smaller than I first presumed and will have easily been outnumbered by the Void Elves.

Speaking of the Void Elves, this clarifies the apparent inconsistency in Anduin's welcoming letter to the Void Elves wherein he refers to the Void Elf player as a new member of the Alliance. As Dalaran high elves are not formally part of the Alliance, but like Quel'lithien Elves merely Alliance aligned, becoming a Void Elf means fully and openly joining the Alliance. And given Dalaran's antipathy towards shadow magic, over which some have been exiled, they would have little choice but to fully join the Alliance upon embracing the void as they would likely no longer have a home in Dalaran.

[DeicideUH]

Wow, using non-canon Hearthstone to try to defend the impossible, that Silver Covenant isn’t Alliance.

BTW, Rise of Shadows has no Silver Covenant card besides Vereesa. For such a “kirin tor” group as you claim, they surely would be better represented.

And before you point Vereesa being in the expansion, I also point Vereesa as one of the Alliance commanders in CANON throne room among all Alliance commanders during the PvP artifact quest. So, when does Vereesa count?