Newest 8.2 drops Unstoppable Force Thunderclap down again, to 30%

[Firefall]

I'm not seeing much discussion on this and discussion I am seeing seems to have people who didn't realize it is a thing.

Previously for 8.2 Unstoppable Force was being nerfed to 50% bonus damage for Thunderclap instead of 100%. Despite being a substantial nerf, I heard some people swimming it as only about a 13-15% reduction in total dps.

The newest build now has the talent nerfed to just 30% bonus damage from thunderclap. This starts to have more potential ramifications outside of the very top level of play.

Raw thunderclaps do not hold threat against equally geared bursty DPS classes like Demon Hunters, especially with the current culture of starting to attack immediately as the tank moves in. Beyond losing most of our current "utility"/niche of just doing a lot of AoE burst, I'm a bit concerned about threat generation unless people start letting warriors get a thunderclap or two off *before* they charge in and pop all their AoE. (But honestly, unless Classic completely takes-off and some of the mentality of being responsible for your own threat leaks into Retail, I don't see that happening haha--DPS constantly pull on their own, with cooldowns, even on skittish week on Live and then complain about taking a white swing or two)

Another point for discussion, does this make the other talents in the tier more appealing to you? We have Dragon Roar, a single GCD AoE nuke, and then we have the revenge damage buff based on how many targets it hits (which currently greatly underperforms both other options on live). I think I could see scenarios or gear sets where I would rather have Dragon Roar over 8.2's Unstoppable Force.


Thoughts? Are you concerned? Do we need a buff elsewhere to compensate and give us a niche? Do we already have a niche (are we truly the best physical damage mitigation?)

[Magnosh]

Honestly it's a bit concerning especial for threat purposes when you have some super beefed up damage dealers with you and all love to hit different targets but in the end it's not their fault, they were used to have tanks doing 10x more threat than now.

I doubt any of the other talents will be viable because Unstoppable Force still does reduce the CD of Thunder Clap by half during Avatar which allows for more TC overall and let's not forget that we still have that essence that randomly procs Avatar.

[TOM_RUS]

Raw thunderclaps do not hold threat against equally geared bursty DPS classes like Demon Hunters, especially with the current culture of starting to attack immediately as the tank moves in.

Honestly it's a bit concerning especial for threat purposes when you have some super beefed up damage dealers with you and all love to hit different targets but in the end it's not their fault, they were used to have tanks doing 10x more threat than now.

Why should it be problem for all other tanks but not warriors? If you don't like to see warrior tank's DPS nerfed, you should ask for other tank's DPS to be buffed...

[Magnosh]

Why should it be problem for all other tanks but not warriors? If you don't like to see warrior tank's DPS nerfed, you should ask for other tank's DPS to be buffed...

I don't remember it being an when I played Blood Dk nor if you go Blessed Hammer/Seraphin as Prot Paladin, think its more about how the spells work.

[Firefall]

Why should it be problem for all other tanks but not warriors? If you don't like to see warrior tank's DPS nerfed, you should ask for other tank's DPS to be buffed...

I'm pmuch only talking about getting sizable threat on-pull.

I also play a DK, Pally and Druid, albeit not as hardcore as my warrior. AoE threat feels quite a bit easier on those classes because their AoE is active at all times (consecration, D&D) or has no real cooldown (swipe/maul usage, hammer when in conc) or they have "backup" AoE on deck when needed to trade mitigation for more AoE (pallys off GCD active mitigation, extra swipes or bloodboils). Thunderclap is not always up, and we do not have Revenge on pull. I believe that warriors may be the only tank that cannot use or have active an AoE move every GCD if they decided to.

[Lenis]

I really dont understand whats your point. Without Avatar nothing changed, with Avatar ProtW will still be the highest damage tank.

I'm pmuch only talking about getting sizable threat on-pull.

I also play a DK, Pally and Druid, albeit not as hardcore as my warrior. AoE threat feels quite a bit easier on those classes because their AoE is active at all times (consecration, D&D) or has no real cooldown (swipe/maul usage, hammer when in conc) or they have "backup" AoE on deck when needed to trade mitigation for more AoE (pallys off GCD active mitigation, extra swipes or bloodboils). Thunderclap is not always up, and we do not have Revenge on pull. I believe that warriors may be the only tank that cannot use or have active an AoE move every GCD if they decided to.

I really dont know how you think agro works. Tank threat = 4 x dps. Dps threat = dps. Consecration and D&D doesnt hold agro, it does like 5% of their dps.

[Huanak]

so here is possible result:
single target boss dps drop from 15k to 14k(around 5% nerfed).
avatar aoe drop from 100k to 65k (45% nerfed)
normal aoe stay same 25k

[Magnosh]

I really dont understand whats your point. Without Avatar nothing changed, with Avatar ProtW will still be the highest damage tank.


I really dont know how you think agro works. Tank threat = 4 x dps. Dps threat = dps. Consecration and D&D doesnt hold agro, it does like 5% of their dps.

I think he doesn't mean it in that way, I believe this is what he means (for easier comparisons ill be using on this example: 3 targets, 415 average numbers from wl top parsing players and not taking into account GCD):

The first 3 seconds of a pull looks like this (assuming you had a very consuming previous pull and you start without rage): Charge > Thunder Clap > Shield slam, your threat with the multiplier will look like 129.2k damage but 2 of those spells are only hitting one target, for the other targets your threat will only be at 70k at that moment.

Comparatively a paladin first 3 seconds will look like: Avenger's shield > Consecration > Hammer, your threat will look like 84.8k on all 3 targets, not accounting for the possibility to use Consecration on the first second but if you could your threat would look like 89.2k because it's damage would continue over these 3 seconds without the use of another key press

Now if you take into account you have an Outlaw rogue without Tricks available nor combopoints his first 3 seconds could look something like: Ambush > Sinister > Pistol this would amount for 62.6k.

The difference from the Outlaw to the Warrior, if they are hitting different targets in the first 3 seconds, is fairly close, only 7.4k difference, while to the Paladin would be 12.2k difference, almost double the difference. This is an issue when as a Warrior you are drained from a certain pull and move into the next one and you have 2 fairly geared/optimized DPS's hitting different targets which can make these first 3 seconds very frustrating. There are a few things that can aggravate immensely this issue:
- Caster Adds being spread and you having to move to them to aggro (no place to LoS) and adding them to that pull while a DPS stays behind bursting that add;
- The DPS coming with leftover CD's from the previous pack still up or just some insane crits;

I think this is what he meant, I cba doing the same for Blood dk atm but the principle is the same the difference is that the first 3 seconds would look something like: DnD > Bood boil > Heart Strike, all of which are AoE threat with DnD damage bleeding over the 3 seconds (and more ofc) and Blood Boil applying a dot that gives you both damage and healing threat.


All of this can be solved by changing a bit the playstyle and mentality of the dpsers but you know, that's not very easy to do.

[Zendhal The Black]

And now search for the essence that gives Avarar procs and CDR...

Prot is fine. With that esence, it would go from OP to stupidly OP

[Magnosh]

And now search for the essence that gives Avarar procs and CDR...

Prot is fine. With that esence, it would go from OP to stupidly OP

So is everyone :P

[Jester Joe]

I don't remember it being an when I played Blood Dk nor if you go Blessed Hammer/Seraphin as Prot Paladin, think its more about how the spells work.

Blessed Hammer shares the row with Holy Shield which is far better overall though, and Seraphim isn't up for every pack realistically.

And I think that's kinda the point either way? Other tanks are still fine with aoe threat, warriors will still be fine too after this.

[Magnosh]

Blessed Hammer shares the row with Holy Shield which is far better overall though, and Seraphim isn't up for every pack realistically.

And I think that's kinda the point either way? Other tanks are still fine with aoe threat, warriors will still be fine too after this.

Yes, Holy shield is better defensively not offensively. We will see how it turns out in a few months and get back to this topic I guess...

[Jester Joe]

Yes, Holy shield is better defensively not offensively. We will see how it turns out in a few months and get back to this topic I guess...

Holy Shield does have an offensive part tied in, but even past squeezing out that tiny bit of extra damage, it doesn't make or break for aoe aggro.

Not only to mention, but blessed hammer only does more damage to a single target in the case of hitting them twice as far as I know.

[Firefall]

I think he doesn't mean it in that way, I believe this is what he means (for easier comparisons ill be using on this example: 3 targets, 415 average numbers from wl top parsing players and not taking into account GCD):

The first 3 seconds of a pull looks like this (assuming you had a very consuming previous pull and you start without rage): Charge > Thunder Clap > Shield slam, your threat with the multiplier will look like 129.2k damage but 2 of those spells are only hitting one target, for the other targets your threat will only be at 70k at that moment.

Comparatively a paladin first 3 seconds will look like: Avenger's shield > Consecration > Hammer, your threat will look like 84.8k on all 3 targets, not accounting for the possibility to use Consecration on the first second but if you could your threat would look like 89.2k because it's damage would continue over these 3 seconds without the use of another key press

Now if you take into account you have an Outlaw rogue without Tricks available nor combopoints his first 3 seconds could look something like: Ambush > Sinister > Pistol this would amount for 62.6k.

The difference from the Outlaw to the Warrior, if they are hitting different targets in the first 3 seconds, is fairly close, only 7.4k difference, while to the Paladin would be 12.2k difference, almost double the difference. This is an issue when as a Warrior you are drained from a certain pull and move into the next one and you have 2 fairly geared/optimized DPS's hitting different targets which can make these first 3 seconds very frustrating. There are a few things that can aggravate immensely this issue:
- Caster Adds being spread and you having to move to them to aggro (no place to LoS) and adding them to that pull while a DPS stays behind bursting that add;
- The DPS coming with leftover CD's from the previous pack still up or just some insane crits;

I think this is what he meant, I cba doing the same for Blood dk atm but the principle is the same the difference is that the first 3 seconds would look something like: DnD > Bood boil > Heart Strike, all of which are AoE threat with DnD damage bleeding over the 3 seconds (and more ofc) and Blood Boil applying a dot that gives you both damage and healing threat.


All of this can be solved by changing a bit the playstyle and mentality of the dpsers but you know, that's not very easy to do.

Thank you, this is what I meant and you wrote it out better and in more detail than I did, lol.

Anyway lets put it back on topic, I really am not trying to make this a thread arguing about other tanks, I just want some discussion on this change because it is a pretty big deal. So, one question I really want to hear thoughts and opinions on, what is the niche of a warrior in 8.2 after this change? Is it still high damage? Are we really the best at physical mitigation? Does Heroic Leap give us a massive advantage for the new Beguiling or in any raid? We lack any neat utility stuff like Gorfiends ect.

[Magnosh]

Holy Shield does have an offensive part tied in, but even past squeezing out that tiny bit of extra damage, it doesn't make or break for aoe aggro.

Not only to mention, but blessed hammer only does more damage to a single target in the case of hitting them twice as far as I know.

I know it has an offensive part tied in the talent but it's inferior, that's why when you look at top parsing Prot Paladins the majority goes with Blessed Hammer.

We were not talking about single target Aggro, in that regard Prot Warrior is extremely strong, we were talking about AoE Aggro for which Blessed Hammer is superior than regular Hammer not that much about the first hit it does on the target but because its basically never is on CD with the 3 charges and because it kind of works like a Consecration/DnD in the sense that it leaves behind something that will keep hitting mobs.

But back on Topic, I have no problems assuming that as a 418 Prot Warrior with 3 BoM and 3 DC Traits that in some high keys (19+) I do lose momentary aggro under certain conditions (e.g. Avatar on CD, Pot on CD, gathering mobs while hasty DPS start nuking a target that i'm moving right after I Thunder claped on him, etc), issues that I usually don't have on my 410 Blood DK nor on my 411 Prot Paladin.

This change only affects us during Avatar, so whatever things I'm pointing out here wont be solved if they revert the nerf, I'm bringing this up because I'm a bit concerned because I don't want these these issues might bleed into the Avatar window and, as people say, better safer than sorry.

Just to be clear, I'm not here claiming I'm a Pro or anything alike but I'm also not parsing Grey/Green logs as Tank DPS on Raids, I'm usually on the 90+ side, I know how to press my buttons xD

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Thank you, this is what I meant and you wrote it out better and in more detail than I did, lol.

Anyway lets put it back on topic, I really am not trying to make this a thread arguing about other tanks, I just want some discussion on this change because it is a pretty big deal. So, one question I really want to hear thoughts and opinions on, what is the niche of a warrior in 8.2 after this change? Is it still high damage? Are we really the best at physical mitigation? Does Heroic Leap give us a massive advantage for the new Beguiling or in any raid? We lack any neat utility stuff like Gorfiends ect.

Np man, I knew exactly what you meant because I'm struggled with explaining it to some of my DPS friends.

Raid wise, this nerf will probably drop us down to Paladin level of Damage. M+ remains to be seen.

I doubt Heroic Leap gives us any advantage besides what it does now as there are Tanks with better mobility. Funny enough, after an entire tier without Mass Grip I doubt it's going to become ''mandatory'' all of the sudden.

We probably are the best at dealing with physical damage, especially if it can be blocked but that has been like it for some tiers. The catch is whether it's better to mitigate or to heal it back up.

[HeiAggra]

Why should it be problem for all other tanks but not warriors? If you don't like to see warrior tank's DPS nerfed, you should ask for other tank's DPS to be buffed...

It's not a dps issue it's a aggro issue.
If they reduce the DPS of the tank by so much, they should increase the aggro generation of the abilities by a margin so we can hold aggro.
We will have a big aggro problem with burst classes.

[Deciticus]

So is everyone :P

They're really not though.

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It's not a dps issue it's a aggro issue.
If they reduce the DPS of the tank by so much, they should increase the aggro generation of the abilities by a margin so we can hold aggro.
We will have a big aggro problem with burst classes.

Dude if you honestly think prot is going to suddenly have aggro issues you're actually off the bin

[Firefall]

They're really not though.

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Dude if you honestly think prot is going to suddenly have aggro issues you're actually off the bin

Prot warriors have needed to tab target more often than other tank classes since Vanilla, it is part of the playstyle. But on live, thunderclap outside of avatar mathematically does not hold threat if you don't greatly ourgear your DPSers. The conversation is how much more tab targeting and micromanagement we will need to do with this nerf. It is mathematically unavoidable that prot will have a harder time holding threat after a substantial AoE damage nerf, the discussion is how much harder.

[Zendhal The Black]

I don't know what game all these people were playing, but I haven't had issues with aggro on prot warrior since 7.1.5 even on skittish weeks...

[Magnosh]

I don't know what game all these people were playing, but I haven't had issues with aggro on prot warrior since 7.1.5 even on skittish weeks...

Out of curiosity which traits are you running and how high are you pushing your keys?