Can Sylvanas rightfully remain Warchief?

[mysticx]

With how things are being set up it's just incredibly unlikely she'll still be Warchief at this point. Something drastic would have to happen to cause a complete 180.

Three words: “Azeroth is free!”

[Darth-Piekus]

Three words: “Azeroth is free!”

Wasn't he and his Iron Horde converted or killed after with only a few left who escaped to Azeroth? You could say that technically they did pay for their crimes. Even his own son became Lightbound and hunted them down.

[Mehrunes]

Wildberry's chart explains it as well and I'll put 10 000 hours of photoshop work into adding where I'm going with this sometime later today. The short of it is though that being captured doesn't mean the Horde ceases to be. Garrosh may be in chains and be part of a show trial, but he's still the Warchief of the Horde in the same way Doomhammer was still Warchief during his capture. There's no element of popular support required and the Playable Horde, unlike even Rend's Horde have the dubious privilege of already being expelled from the Horde before Garrosh was captured. Even if there were popular support required, the Horde was still an extant organisation of the time to a far greater degree than Orgrim's was post-WC2, since Zaela still had troops and territory and the Blackfuse company was still with him.

As for how Garrosh doesn't appoint Grom, that's true, but doesn't really matter. Garrosh presumably made the Blood Oath of the Horde to his dad, making the still extant True Horde a part of the Iron Horde, since the Warchief of the True Horde is bound to the Warchief of the Iron Horde. By extension, when Grom passes power to Geyarah, the whole of the Iron Horde/Mag'har goes to her which includes the True Horde. Then that in turn goes to Sylvanas when Geyarah binds herself to Sylvanas as her Warchief.

The big question will be what happens after Sylvanas gives up on this irredeemable faction and goes off to implement her evil plan without a successor since we've not had a situation before where the Warchief ditches their post without Mak'gora or appointing someone to take over.

Move it to his death then. Because whether Garrosh swore the Blood Oath to AU Grom or not isn't really relevant. That wouldn't make Grom the Warchief of the MU Horde under any rule of the Horde we know of. It'd simply make Garrosh a member of two Hordes at once and through him it'd make the MU Horde subservient to AU Grom's own Iron Horde. And once Garrosh died, the chain of command of the MU Horde still ultimately went kaput. Now, it could be argued that under those circumstances the Iron Horde would have better claim to Garrosh's Horde than Vol'jin's, but since Blizzard didn't explore this one iota, we don't have solid information in either direction.

[Verdugo]

Wasn't he and his Iron Horde converted or killed after with only a few left who escaped to Azeroth? You could say that technically they did pay for their crimes. Even his own son became Lightbound and hunted them down.

That came later for irelevant reasons. Point is, Draenei were ok with orcs genociding them, because the one responsible was overthrown and he was sorry.

Wait scratch that, he didnt even apologize.

[Super Dickmann]

Move it to his death then. Because whether Garrosh swore the Blood Oath to AU Grom or not isn't really relevant. That wouldn't make Grom the Warchief of the MU Horde under any rule of the Horde we know of. It'd simply make Garrosh a member of two Hordes at once and through him it'd make the MU Horde subservient to AU Grom's own Iron Horde. And once Garrosh died, the chain of command of the MU Horde still ultimately went kaput. Now, it could be argued that under those circumstances the Iron Horde would have better claim to Garrosh's Horde than Vol'jin's, but since Blizzard didn't explore this one iota, we don't have solid information in either direction.

You are right that Garrosh is simultaneously the Warchief of the Horde and a Warlord in the Iron Horde who's made the Blood Oath to Grom. All members of the Horde are instruments of Garrosh's will. Garrosh is an instrument of Grom's will, therefore by extension the ones bound to Garrosh are bound to Grom. You can go one of two routes with this - the first is that when Garrosh dies the MU Horde ceases to be. The other reading is that they are fully subsumed into the Iron Horde. With the latter rendition, Grom passes to Geyarah and Geyarah swears to Sylvanas, legitimizing her.

If not, then the Horde dies with Garrosh and the Playable Horde remains illegitimate.

[Sondrelk]

That came later for irelevant reasons. Point is, Draenei were ok with orcs genociding them, because the one responsible was overthrown and he was sorry.

Wait scratch that, he didnt even apologize.

The WoD draenei genocide plot, and the Teldrassil burning plot are eerily similar at times, both seem to be written solely for shock value, with no thought given to how important this should be for everyone involved.
Draenei after WoD essentially have moral carte blanche to dictate terms with the Orcs, and yet the narrative seems to gloss over it seemingly just because it does not want to deal with the problem it has created.
Burning of Teldrassil is the same, this should be brought up at almost every turn as the ultimate moral failing of the Horde, and on both sides of the faction divide, yet noone seems to give it much though, 8.1 with the Darkshore warfront is the most it got, and even that seems to have been written with little concern for Teldrassil at all.

[HoodKazekage]

Rightfully? Because of how the Horde works, yes. The only legal way for Sylvanas to lose the right to remain Warchief is for her to step down.




Given how no such thing actually happens in the post-Cata Forsaken intro, it would have been kinda hard for people to pay attention to that




They didn't disobey orders to attack... The people disobeying the orders were the ones who looted Taurajo after the attack. The attack itself was led by highest-ranking Alliance officer in the region. Can you at least know your own side's quests?




Even if the writers did write them out, they wouldn't be able to stop themselves for more than a patch. And then they'd pull yet another GoT moment when Dothraki Orcs and humans were almost wiped out in one episode patch only for us to learn in the very next one that half of them survived.

Obtuse much? IDGAF if it wasnt in the POST-cata intro, it was there vanilla-wrath. This has been a long time coming.

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There is no proof that Sylvanas wants to turn everyone undead. Moreover, she wouldn't need any corpses for her people if some idiot didn't attack her in Stormheim.

Didn't you post this some time ago.

Lmao ignorance is bliss i guess. No proof? LMAO come back when you finished your research

[mysticx]

Wasn't he and his Iron Horde converted or killed after with only a few left who escaped to Azeroth? You could say that technically they did pay for their crimes. Even his own son became Lightbound and hunted them down.

Sure, but at the time that was enough (Cringy enough, maybe :P ) to give everybody a case of temporary amnesia about the crap he pulled up until then.

[alt-ithist]

Old Thrall was wise enough to know when peace is possible and when it is not. He allied with Jaina and Tauren, even Varian when he needed his help but he slaughtered centaur, quillboars, harpies and Kul Tirans.

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I don't understand why Blizzard didn't even consider a scenario where Sylvanas gets rid of rebellion before it gets too dangerous.

My dream scenario is Sylvanas Gathering all the rebel leaders in one place and blow them up. If you sided with her throughout the questline you a get a “good job” + reward. If you sided with the rebel, she shows up and pull you out of the explosion range just in time and tells you she only spared you because she knows you’re important to Azeroth and she will be watching you. Bonus points if she finds a way to mind control some alliance npc (maybe a night elf) to force them so set off the explosion so it could all be blamed on the alliance thus we never have another neutral city expansion ever again.

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There is no proof that Sylvanas wants to turn everyone undead. Moreover, she wouldn't need any corpses for her people if some idiot didn't attack her in Stormheim.

Didn't you post this some time ago.

While I’m a sylvanas fanboy, I have no delusions that she isn’t evil. You do realize if the puppy didn’t stop her she was going to enslave a race of people that was fighting against the legion right? And since she always had her sight on Stormwind, even if she didn’t need to sacrifice humans to empower the forsaken, once she created an entire empowered deathknight level forsaken army, it’s pretty much guaranteed she would head to Stormwind to make more forsaken to also empower and bolster her forces. Anduin should be kissing the dogs feet in thanks for saving the alliance.

[Verdugo]

You do realize if the puppy didn’t stop her she was going to enslave a race of people that was fighting against the legion right?

Who honestly cares. Those vrykul were already slaves turned into cult, and they barely helped against the legion.

[MatthiasVonTzeskagrad]

Who honestly cares. Those vrykul were already slaves turned into cult, and they barely helped against the legion.

That's right, they were so scared of Helya they did not even came to aid anyone in the world besides one Valkyr picking dead guys.
And even after Helyas defeat, the mighty Stormforged Valarjar...
get killed by random imps in a 1v1

[Maljinwo]

Sylvanas is not a character

it's a plot device
A bad one at that

[mickybrighteyes]

While I’m a sylvanas fanboy, I have no delusions that she isn’t evil. You do realize if the puppy didn’t stop her she was going to enslave a race of people that was fighting against the legion right?

They were fighting literally ANYTHING.... Legion, us, themselves... big on fighting amongst themselves. And add in their highest tech was a variation of metal working for better blades and taming local drakes. Not counting their literal god stepping down to stand at his front porch to one shot nearby interstellar dreadnaughts.

I mean the Murlocs also were fighting the legion, if that amounts to anything.

[Grazrug]

Sylvanas is not a character

it's a plot device
A bad one at that

Truer words may have never been spoken. Blizzard sropped years ago to treat Sylvanas as an actual character.

[Every Pwny]

Her just remaining warchief would still make her the rightful warchief. There is no real like "rightful" warchief, you just follow whoever is in charge at the time without question. Other than a rebellion I don't see how she would not be the "rightful" warchief.

I would say that it's impossible for her to stick around, as every night elf fan would quit en masse if her genocide gets hand-waved away. But I'm not sure there's enough of us left at this point to make that much of a threat, so it's anyone's guess now.

They already said Tyrande got her revenge, so the genocide is already hand-waved away. I would guess the only time we would return to that plot point would be if they were making Tyrande a raid boss.