BFA War- If Varian Lived

[Quaade]

Well sylvans notes in before the storm that war wouldn’t have been needed with Varian in charge because she trusted him, but let’s assume it still happened. For starters I don’t think varian would forget to bring gas masks to Lordaeron, I also don’t think he would keep Saurfang alive. Past that it’s hard to imagine because a lot of things change.

She would have started a war regardless. Anduin getting enthroned was just a convenient excuse.

Anduin was Varian's "conscience" it was him who advised him to be more open and less angry. So, "let's trust the person who has a reputation for being a warmonger and aggressor more than the person who talks and acts peace all the time."

Her reasoning is clear BS and a weak justification of her personal beliefs, which are "fuck everyone else as long as I get mine!"

[Super Dickmann]

She would have started a war regardless. Anduin getting enthroned was just a convenient excuse.

Anduin was Varian's "conscience" it was him who advised him to be more open and less angry. So, "let's trust the person who has a reputation for being a warmonger and aggressor more than the person who talks and acts peace all the time."

Her reasoning is clear BS and a weak justification of her personal beliefs, which are "fuck everyone else as long as I get mine!"

She explains her reasoning pretty clearly, and that's that Varian could control the Alliance whereas Anduin wouldn't, hence why Anduin allowed a scenario where Genn tried to assassinate her and blew up large parts of the fleet sent after the Aegis during a war with Satan. Ergo, despite Anduin being the goodest boy, she believed him to be incapable of preventing this from happening again, except this time with the WMDs both factions would have as a result of azerite. She goes over this entirely in her internal monologue so unless she knows she's in a story and playing 7D underwater chess with the reader, it's quite genuine.

[mickybrighteyes]

i know they're both starboard firing, i wanted you to acknowledge that weapon's test as the supposed instigator of the conflict in stormheim.

I never said the 'test shots were an instigator... you did. Also the notion of test shots don't seem to be present in the dialogue from what I've seen.

because it invalidates the notion of the alliance being an aggressor for it to be a accidental hit from pre-battle weapon's testing which is what the alliance PC quest involvement confirms.

Except the entire mission as stated in the preceding quests is to track the Forsaken fleet and heavily implies they were planning to engage... Genn and Rogers discuss engaging before they even leave Stormwind's port and NOT as defensive response.

quote me all you want, i don't give a shit now and i never will.

then allow me to feed you your own words:

keep putting your head in the sand, it won't change anyone's mind but your own.

edit: finally found a toon that hadn't completed the quest and was at a level to do it. got through the making teh rounds talk to Genn after he talks about killing prey he stalks, load up cutscene (plays for alliance now I guess) only to have it break and keep sending me back to stormwind XD

edit 2:
a few chats using the port and I got in. NO mention of test shots at all. Cease fire. dip below cloudline and ready to engage. Cut and dry really.

[Malikath]

I never said the 'test shots were an instigator... you did. Also the notion of test shots don't seem to be present in the dialogue from what I've seen.
Except the entire mission as stated in the preceding quests is to track the Forsaken fleet and heavily implies they were planning to engage... Genn and Rogers discuss engaging before they even leave Stormwind's port and NOT as defensive response.


then allow me to feed you your own words:

either the horde, or the legion which is a more ever-present enemy then the one they apperatly didn't know where they were as the bat-rider ambush is an ambush, the captain even says to "wait for contact with the enemy", which implies that they had no current targets for the volley, just testing if the guns worked by firing into the sea.
which is exactly what the alliance PC is asked to do at first, to man a AA cannon and give it a test-fire.

so in the end, forsaken suck at stealth so bad fate(the story) contrives to get them fucked.

fyi, i still don't care.

[Super Dickmann]

either them, who they appearance didn't know where they were as the bat-rider ambush is an ambush, the captain even says to "wait for contact with the enemy", which implies that they had no current targets for the volley, just testing if the guns worked by firing into the sea.
which is exactly what the alliance PC is asked to do at first, to man a AA cannon and give it a test-fire.

fyi, i still don't care.

This is moon logic, considering we see the cannons fire on the ships and destroy some in the cutscene and the Horde version further confirms that it's only after the volley that Sylvanas sends the batriders:

A cinematic plays of the Skyfire opening fire on the Forsaken battleships.
Stage 1: The Windrunner
Report to Lady Sylvanas Windrunner.
Dread-Captain Tattersail says: Damnit! We're sitting ducks out here.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: The Alliance will be upon us soon, and we have nowhere to run. Organize our defenses beginning with the rear. I want bat-riders in the air and catapults at the ready!

There's no indication anywhere in the text that there were any test shots to speak of. Genn was the aggressor and Sylvanas sent the bats after the bombardment, just like Rogers said to prepare for them after the bombardment. It's completely unambiguous.

[Malikath]

edit: finally found a toon that hadn't completed the quest and was at a level to do it. got through the making teh rounds talk to Genn after he talks about killing prey he stalks, load up cutscene (plays for alliance now I guess) only to have it break and keep sending me back to stormwind XD

oh, legion content is broken EVERYWHERE, i can't get rid of the windchime in my paladin's quest chain cause the illidan flashback segment crashed my PC when it tried to load in.

thanks amrita, we totes didn't need all that support staff.

[mickybrighteyes]

either the horde, or the legion which is a more ever-present enemy then the one they apperatly didn't know where they were

Genn and Rogers are there specifically tracking teh forsaken fleet as their official mission from Stormwind. The Skyfire was fully aware of the Forsaken fleet as that was their objective.

as the bat-rider ambush is an ambush,

YOU are the one calling it an ambush. By definition it can't be an ambush as the fleet that held the bat riders was the one ambushed.

the captain even says to "wait for contact with the enemy", which implies that they had no current targets for the volley,[

It can also mean no enemies in range.

just testing if the guns worked by firing into the sea.

You are literally the only source posturing this idea.

which is exactly what the alliance PC is asked to do at first, to man a AA cannon and give it a test-fire.

citation needed, source not verified.

fyi, i still don't care.

You are free to stop posting. But it is amusing seeing some of these responses.

[Varodoc]

If Sylvanas didn't want Greymane and Rogers to misunderstand her intentions, then perhaps she should have made it clear to the Alliance that she didn't go rogue at the Broken Shore. If she had a functioning brain, she would have either sent a messenger to Varian to warn that they had to retreat, or some representative at Varian's funeral so that the Alliance would get the memo. She is just as responsible for the shit that happened in Stormheim. An intelligent leader would realize that without any context, the Alliance would obviously take her retreat as a betrayal. Especially since she has a terrible reputation.

She is such a dumb leader. It's a miracle her incompetence hasn't doomed the planet already. Oh wait, it almost did, when Varimathras went rogue and almost summoned Sargeras. Some "genius" she is.

[Malikath]

This is moon logic, considering we see the cannons fire on the ships and destroy some in the cutscene and the Horde version further confirms that it's only after the volley that Sylvanas sends the batriders:

yes, but the captain orders them to stop the firing and to "wait for contact", that along with the captain and genn talking about finding them afterwards in RP clearly shows that the alliance had no idea the forsaken were in the clouds beneath them until the bat-riders' attack gave them away.

the alliance send their own riders down to what they presume the three ships they hit and were left to be the entirety of the forsaken fleet with sylvanas, but they only do that after the first wave of bat-riders is pushed back which is when they find out that the ships are beneath them.
after ransacking the three ships the alliance PC returns to the skyfire to try and prevent the boarding parties from igniting the powder magazine, this fails and the skyfire blows apart above stormheim disabling much of both faction's remaining armed forces.

those hits were accidental, a result of a pre-engagement live weapons test, one the alliance player character is involved in as you literally cannot progress unless you fire at least one shot from the cannon for quest progress.

[mickybrighteyes]

If Sylvanas didn't want Greymane and Rogers to misunderstand her intentions, then perhaps she should have made it clear to the Alliance that she didn't go rogue at the Broken Shore. If she had a functioning brain, she would have either sent a messenger to Varian to warn that they had to retreat, or some representative at Varian's funeral so that the Alliance would get the memo. She is just as responsible for the shit that happened in Stormheim. An intelligent leader would realize that without any context, the Alliance would obviously take her retreat as a betrayal. Especially since she has a terrible reputation.

Genn still hated her to his core and wanted any reason to end her regardless.

Rogers is likewise pissed at the entire horde over her own backstory and a major point over South Shore. Neither would be willing to listen to Sylvanas. Nevermind that Sylvanas is almost universally not trusted by any non-forsaken party.

As for warning at the time during the broken shore event. That signal that was sounded could be argued as warning and it was received and noticed. But both parties were too committed to their respective positions and stuck. Horde was getting cut down already by the time they sounded that horn and the Alliance forces were almost fully inside the kill zone of the real trap.

Now also remember the last time Sylvanas sent emissaries to the human lands. None of those emissaries returned.

Varian might be willing to take a moment and listen... Jaina, Genn, and the rest? not so much. Velen is Velen but he doesn't hold teh same respect or power that Varian had over the Alliance.

- - - Updated - - -

yes, but the captain orders them to stop the firing and to "wait for contact", that along with the captain and genn talking about finding them afterwards in RP clearly shows that the alliance had no idea the forsaken were in the clouds beneath them until the bat-riders' attack gave them away.

First off... the main mission they were performing was FOLLOWING THE FORSAKEN.

This is how the lead in events are describe:

who believed Sylvanas herself was a passenger on one of the ships, chose to attack the fleet. Unable to make contact with the rest of the Alliance fleet, the Skyfire proceeded with their assault.
Citation: Skyadmiral Rogers

the alliance send their own riders down to what they presume the three ships they hit and were left to be the entirety of the forsaken fleet with sylvanas, but they only do that after the first wave of bat-riders is pushed back which is when they find out that the ships are beneath them.

they go down because ultimately they are after Sylvanas. They don't know Sylvanas is there only think she might be.

to pull up the quotes when Rogers orders out the gryphons:
Sky Admiral Rogers says: Legionnaires, move out! Storm those ships and find Sylvanas!
Sky Admiral Rogers says: Gryphon riders, back them up!
Citation: Greyman's Gambit

note it's "STORM THOSE SHIPS" not check our aim....

those hits were accidental, a result of a pre-engagement live weapons test, one the player character is involved in as you literally cannot progress unless you fire at least one shot from the cannon for quest progress.

The bold is never stated or pointed out except for in this thread. This is not a common practice when in a position such as the one shown where a 'recon' mission (officially) is taking place and they're in the vicinity of your target. I will alos point out you DON'T need to test shoot the canon to progress the quest on live and it will advance on its own. Rogers will order the Skyfire to break the cloud cover and get in range as well: "prepare for a second volley as we breach the cloud-line."
Citation for this line: Greymane's Gambit

[Nathreim]

except the one that there are soul-scanning spiritual entities confronting those monologues, rebuking her self-justification for her "arrows in my quiver" mentality that she had to begin with and charging her with being a heartless sociopath.

cause frankly, your head-canon never matters.

- - - Updated - - -



imagine being so naive.
we'd of probably lost the war against the legion early on if we didn't have the support of odyn, so enjoy that kind of immortality with the demons.

Odyn wouldn't have given a shit about what Sylvanas did. He sacrifices his own all the time for the sake of entertainment if you fall then you were never strong enough and not worthy of his attention.

If anything he would have been more impressed that his greatest Valk was defeated.

Him fighting the Legion along side of us was inevitable. His purpose is to fight the Legion and they dared to attack him.

[CynicalPenguin]

Stormheim still happening would be a bugbear because without Varian dying there's no fresh bad blood and he's also the kind of guy who'd get in touch with Sylvanas. Without it, we have a much earlier point of divergence when Sylvanas successfully grabs Eyir.

I feel like a lot of things that went bad in Stormheim was because of Genn.

[Trumpcat]

"What if" is always a wild thing, but it's very safe to assume he would have been merciless, relentless and much, much smarter.

[Quaade]

She explains her reasoning pretty clearly, and that's that Varian could control the Alliance whereas Anduin wouldn't, hence why Anduin allowed a scenario where Genn tried to assassinate her and blew up large parts of the fleet sent after the Aegis during a war with Satan. Ergo, despite Anduin being the goodest boy, she believed him to be incapable of preventing this from happening again, except this time with the WMDs both factions would have as a result of azerite. She goes over this entirely in her internal monologue so unless she knows she's in a story and playing 7D underwater chess with the reader, it's quite genuine.

What she explains are her conscious thoughts. Those are the things we tell ourselves to justify our actions since NO ONE is the villain even if they do things like genocide, they're just doing the harsh but necessary things.

The fact that she sees herself as the wrongly pursued innocent party just shows how deranged she is. Genn attacking her without provocation was stupid and he ultimately got away without punishment as her ultimate intention of making that trip was for the purpose of bad. No one, other than her and her most deranged fanboys, thinks that her getting control over Eier would be a good thing. She already makes the dead Forsaken against their will directly violating her first state of that the existence is a curse.

Always look at what people do instead of what they say. Sylvanas says one thing that's in conflict with every bit of observable reality and then does another. A person who has equilibrium between their consciousness and subconsciousness would ever do that.

The subconsciousness is who we are, our consciousness is who we tell others we are and think who we are.

[Mehrunes]

What she explains are her conscious thoughts. Those are the things we tell ourselves to justify our actions since NO ONE is the villain even if they do things like genocide, they're just doing the harsh but necessary things.

Except this doesn't even remotely exhaust the list of purposes of conscious thoughts. You trying to pigeon-hole that thought of her to "lel, Sylvanas was just justifying her actions" while you have nothing to base that on (especially since she thought that before the war even happened) is nothing short of fallacious.

The fact that she sees herself as the wrongly pursued innocent party just shows how deranged she is. Genn attacking her without provocation was stupid and he ultimately got away without punishment as her ultimate intention of making that trip was for the purpose of bad. No one, other than her and her most deranged fanboys, thinks that her getting control over Eier would be a good thing. She already makes the dead Forsaken against their will directly violating her first state of that the existence is a curse.

But Genn knew jack shit about her goals in Stormheim when he attacked. That makes her wrongly pursued, because she was pursued for completely different reasons. Also, your claim that her purpose was bad also has little basis. There's no indication Odyn would have cared, there's no indication he couldn't have just replaced her as he replaced Helya with Eyir already, there's no significant task Eyir has performed in the war against the Legion. Turning Forsaken immortal on the other hand would explicitly had been a boon against the Legion AND would have secured peace between the factions as she would no longer have had reasons to go against the war against the Alliance. The claim she makes dead Forsaken against their will is fanfiction.

[Soon-TM]

Her being a ranger-general would be what lets her know how anduin is more of a threat than varian.

Someone with the military expertise of a RG would understand that a young, inexperienced leader is absolute power is much more volatile and dangerous and a seasoned vet who is mostly levelheaded and willing to show at least some semblance of respect for his adversary. Especially when said young leader is willing to turn a blind eye whenever it suits him.

As much as I dislike Sylvanas in BfA (or rather the way her character has been butchered), she's completely right when she calls out Anduin for calling peace only when it suits him.

[BobAwesome]

As much as I dislike Sylvanas in BfA (or rather the way her character has been butchered), she's completely right when she calls out Anduin for calling peace only when it suits him.

Eh, in which instance has Anduin called for anything but peace?

[Mehrunes]

Eh, in which instance has Anduin called for anything but peace?

In the instance where he informed Sylvanas in the letter proposing the Gathering that the Gathering is explicitly not an attempt at peace. Then he repeated that to her face when they met prior to the Gathering.

Also, the whole part about him not punishing Genn's and Rogers' crimes against the peace when they attacked the Horde (and broke Anduin's orders to do so no less). Anduin is all talk about peace, but when push comes to shove and it's time for action instead of empty words he can't actually deliver.

[BobAwesome]

He totally called for Peace when he leveled Brill and assaulted Lordaeron.

Sorry, I guess I should have been more clear, prior to Sylvanas comment of Anduin only calling for peace when it suits him, when had he ever called for anything but peace? Sylvanas used that idea as justification for war. It's like US saying someone has WMD's (when they don't) and starts a war over it. Sylvanas made a self-fulfilling prophecy with her actions.

[Verdugo]

Sorry, I guess I should have been more clear, prior to Sylvanas comment of Anduin only calling for peace when it suits him, when had he ever called for anything but peace? Sylvanas used that idea as justification for war. It's like US saying someone has WMD's (when they don't) and starts a war over it. Sylvanas made a self-fulfilling prophecy with her actions.

Sure, we know Anduin is all for peace since he is written by someone that intends him to be the perfect poster boy of the universe, but for someone that was hunted by his advisor, he hardly looks like a hippy.