Classic WoW Tier sets / offspec gear itemization

[Tantaburs]

Except it isn't less downtime, like I said....you don't sit around twiddling your fingers waiting to naturally regen...you eat something.

It's a worthless stat on any spec that did not have the 30% regen while in combat, which was almost no one but healers.

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If you're a cheap bastard and don't want to waste money on food....but who is that cheap? I guess you are since you seem to think it's worth it.

You realise that spirit regen does turn off when you are eating right. If you have X spirit regen and you add Y food regen you have more regen than someone who just has food regen.

It's also not about being "cheap" it's about affording your mount at 40. 100g is not easy to get if you can save money with spirit gear than it helps you get your mouth which greatly increases your leveling speed

Sure, but "not bad" doesn't mean "pick this over offensive stats".

Spirits increase in leveling speed for warriors is similar to strength and higher than any other stat. You likely choose strength over spirit at a 1 to 1 ratio but I'd suggest taking say 9 spirit over 6 str. You take spirit over stam or agi though

[Kithelle]

That's a pretty bad argument "it stopped growing, but it was higher than when it was growing". That's supposed to be good ?

Nope. Ulduar was highly rated, but the others went from "average" (ICC) to "pile of shit" (ToC) and "rehashed" (Naxx)..

Wat ? Dungeons in WotLK were shit due to being short AoE facerolling bores.

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Are you daft ? Weapon skill is THE SINGLE MOST POWERFUL STAT in raiding in Vanilla.


Depending on your class, you can actually rely on spirit to drastically reduces downtime that can allow you to skip eating most of the time.

Guys, stop trying to argue about how Vanilla was played when you have no Vanilla experience, thanks.

Bzzzzzt wrong....I've been playing since vanilla....so sorry you're wrong. As I have said before, you only stack spirit on healers....and maybe there was a mage spec that has the mp5 in combat buff. You don't stack spirit on most classes unless you're to broke to buy food. All in all it's more efficient to eat than to waste good stats on spirit.

No matter how you hard you try to cry different, you lose health or damage just to regen a little faster....which is pointless when you can buy food and recover quicker.

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You realise that spirit regen does turn off when you are eating right. If you have X spirit regen and you add Y food regen you have more regen than someone who just has food regen.

It's also not about being "cheap" it's about affording your mount at 40. 100g is not easy to get if you can save money with spirit gear than it helps you get your mouth which greatly increases your leveling speed



Spirits increase in leveling speed for warriors is similar to strength and higher than any other stat. You likely choose strength over spirit at a 1 to 1 ratio but I'd suggest taking say 9 spirit over 6 str. You take spirit over stam or agi though

If you're really that damn worried about every copper you make then get a mage to make you some food.

But in otherwords, you're gimping yourself with one mechanic because you're too poor to afford something from another bad mechanic....why is this game good when it does nothing but hinder or hurt you in every way possible? Perhaps you're a masochist?

[Akka]

Bzzzzzt wrong....I've been playing since vanilla....so sorry you're wrong. As I have said before, you only stack spirit on healers....and maybe there was a mage spec that has the mp5 in combat buff. You don't stack spirit on most classes unless you're to broke to buy food. All in all it's more efficient to eat than to waste good stats on spirit.

No matter how you hard you try to cry different, you lose health or damage just to regen a little faster....which is pointless when you can buy food and recover quicker.

Well, you're ignorant then.

[Nathanyel]

It did, so I don't get your argument.

There were single items, yes, I meant having Str and Agi as two offensive stats that Melees/Hunters would use that regularly are on items intended for these classes/specs, instead of the implication that Str is for one half, and Agi for the other. It was a speculation on how they could've evolved the stat system differently, from Vanilla onward or even when planning Vanilla. Please read the context.

[xpose]

tier 1 bonus was pretty bad and it's always been better to mix the set gear

[Belloc]

Are you daft ? Weapon skill is THE SINGLE MOST POWERFUL STAT in raiding in Vanilla.

Yes, it is an incredibly powerful stat... which is why you LEVEL IT OUTSIDE OF RAIDING.

Read what you quoted again: weapon SKILLUPS are absolutely worthless in raiding. If you are still getting weapon SKILLUPS while raiding, you are doing it wrong. Jesus fucking Christ, people, learn how to read.

Guys, stop trying to argue about how Vanilla was played when you have no Vanilla experience, thanks.

Spoiler alert: No one was good in Vanilla. The game was new and the game systems had little to no documentation. No one really knew how many aspects of the game worked. Hell, we couldn't even accurately measure threat levels because the game didn't directly offer up that information -- it was all estimated.

Spirit sucked for everyone except healers, mages, and ... I can't think of anything else. If you were using spirit in raids, you were doing it wrong. It was somewhat more acceptable for solo players out in the world, but... this is an MMO. Anytime you're in a group with a healer, spirit is 100% worthless.

Stop trying to argue that itemization was fine. It wasn't. A lot of Classic WoW wasn't fine. Yeah, it was great at the time, there's no denying that... but every aspect of the original game was improved upon with, at the very least, the first two expansion.

[Z a v i u s]

not saying that tier is the only items that drop but bosses dropping the off spec pieces that make it fun or more powerful with either hit, Nature dmg increase, Shadow DMG, etc..

[Equoowe]

Are you daft ? Weapon skill is THE SINGLE MOST POWERFUL STAT in raiding in Vanilla.

The only daft people are the ones that didn't read the comment properly, it didn't say weapon skill is useless.

[Tantaburs]

Bzzzzzt wrong....I've been playing since vanilla....so sorry you're wrong. As I have said before, you only stack spirit on healers....and maybe there was a mage spec that has the mp5 in combat buff. You don't stack spirit on most classes unless you're to broke to buy food. All in all it's more efficient to eat than to waste good stats on spirit.

No matter how you hard you try to cry different, you lose health or damage just to regen a little faster....which is pointless when you can buy food and recover quicker.

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If you're really that damn worried about every copper you make then get a mage to make you some food.

But in otherwords, you're gimping yourself with one mechanic because you're too poor to afford something from another bad mechanic....why is this game good when it does nothing but hinder or hurt you in every way possible? Perhaps you're a masochist?

Im sure you know more about this than literally every warrior leveling guide made in the last several years that has done extensive math and research to discover that spirit is a very useful stat for leveling. But you're right strength makes axe hit hard is much more convincing than you know evidence

Yes you spend more time in combat to spend less time out of combat you do realize that at the end of the day its all times spent right. You spend X time in combat and Y time out of combat regening or moving to the next mob. If you increase the value of X by less than you decrease the value of Y you have saved time. It not like you are going to have 0 strength noone is making that argument most warrior quest rewards have strength on them. the argument is that if you have an option between a piece with 4 stam and 4 str or a piece with 3 str and 6 spirit it is likely better to take the piece with 6 spirit as you will save time.

Several times in this thread I have shown you the math behind this so far your response has been "you hit less hard and have less health so no". You haven't shown why the time gained by killing faster is higher than the time gained not regening through spirit gear. You've said that you just buy food anyway well again that doesn't get rid of spirit regen if two warrior need to regen 1000HP and one has 30hps from Spirit and one doesnt the one with spirit is going to regen it faster.

If you have an actual argument I'm happy to hear it but so far all you have done is ignored arguments made in defense of spirit and insisted you are correct.

[Akka]

There were single items, yes, I meant having Str and Agi as two offensive stats that Melees/Hunters would use that regularly are on items intended for these classes/specs, instead of the implication that Str is for one half, and Agi for the other. It was a speculation on how they could've evolved the stat system differently, from Vanilla onward or even when planning Vanilla. Please read the context.

Strength and agi were regularly used by all melees.
Hunters had a situational use of strength (very situational, granted) and always used agi.
I did read the context, I just find your conclusion contradicted by facts.

Yes, it is an incredibly powerful stat... which is why you LEVEL IT OUTSIDE OF RAIDING.

Yeah, like, what, EVERYTHING IN THE GAME basically ?

Spoiler alert: No one was good in Vanilla. The game was new and the game systems had little to no documentation. No one really knew how many aspects of the game worked. Hell, we couldn't even accurately measure threat levels because the game didn't directly offer up that information -- it was all estimated.

Spirit sucked for everyone except healers, mages, and ... I can't think of anything else. If you were using spirit in raids, you were doing it wrong. It was somewhat more acceptable for solo players out in the world, but... this is an MMO. Anytime you're in a group with a healer, spirit is 100% worthless.

Spoiler alert : there is not just raid in the game.

Stop trying to argue that itemization was fine. It wasn't. A lot of Classic WoW wasn't fine. Yeah, it was great at the time, there's no denying that... but every aspect of the original game was improved upon with, at the very least, the first two expansion.

Itemization was fine. The fact you ignore all arguments explaining it doesn't change the reality.
You're simply missing the entire point because you're stuck in a tunnel vision "optimized stat for raid".

[Charge me Doctor]

Im sure you know more about this than literally every warrior leveling guide made in the last several years that has done extensive math and research to discover that spirit is a very useful stat for leveling. But you're right strength makes axe hit hard is much more convincing than you know evidence

Yes you spend more time in combat to spend less time out of combat you do realize that at the end of the day its all times spent right. You spend X time in combat and Y time out of combat regening or moving to the next mob. If you increase the value of X by less than you decrease the value of Y you have saved time. It not like you are going to have 0 strength noone is making that argument most warrior quest rewards have strength on them. the argument is that if you have an option between a piece with 4 stam and 4 str or a piece with 3 str and 6 spirit it is likely better to take the piece with 6 spirit as you will save time.

Several times in this thread I have shown you the math behind this so far your response has been "you hit less hard and have less health so no". You haven't shown why the time gained by killing faster is higher than the time gained not regening through spirit gear. You've said that you just buy food anyway well again that doesn't get rid of spirit regen if two warrior need to regen 1000HP and one has 30hps from Spirit and one doesnt the one with spirit is going to regen it faster.

If you have an actual argument I'm happy to hear it but so far all you have done is ignored arguments made in defense of spirit and insisted you are correct.

In case of decently geared one-hander and shield warrior, having more STR is more beneficial. Not taking into account dodge, parry, miss, crit, talents for simplicity

If you take a warrior with there stats:
level 40
str 192
AP 484
AP+bonus 599 (bonus +30 AP from items and +85 from shout)
spirit 78
stam 161
health 1430

With these weapon stats:
min D 50
max D 94
DPS 25,71
Speed 2,8

deciding to drop +8 str in favor of +8 spirit you'll lose:
str ap spd mind maxd mindd maxdd dps
184 583 2,8 50 94 166,6 210,6 67,35714286
192 599 2,8 50 94 169,8 213,8 68,5
200 615 2,8 50 94 173 217 69,64285714
more than 1 DPS and about 3 damage.
in favor of:
Spirit HR
78 68,4
86 74,8
Just 6,4 health per tick. Which puts you right on 74,8 health per tick out of combat. 6,4 is not much of a difference to make any impact, considering your health pool of 1430, and that you'll spend most of your time traveling at 100% health (or replenishing it way quicker with food or bandages). You lose about 1,7% of your DPS to boost your regen from 4,8% health per tick to whooping 5,2% per tick.

I'd like to simulate that further, but i'd need some level 40 mob stats (DPS, armour, health) and somehow include hit/crit and miss/dodge/parry for both participants of combat.

[Kithelle]

Im sure you know more about this than literally every warrior leveling guide made in the last several years that has done extensive math and research to discover that spirit is a very useful stat for leveling. But you're right strength makes axe hit hard is much more convincing than you know evidence

Yes you spend more time in combat to spend less time out of combat you do realize that at the end of the day its all times spent right. You spend X time in combat and Y time out of combat regening or moving to the next mob. If you increase the value of X by less than you decrease the value of Y you have saved time. It not like you are going to have 0 strength noone is making that argument most warrior quest rewards have strength on them. the argument is that if you have an option between a piece with 4 stam and 4 str or a piece with 3 str and 6 spirit it is likely better to take the piece with 6 spirit as you will save time.

Several times in this thread I have shown you the math behind this so far your response has been "you hit less hard and have less health so no". You haven't shown why the time gained by killing faster is higher than the time gained not regening through spirit gear. You've said that you just buy food anyway well again that doesn't get rid of spirit regen if two warrior need to regen 1000HP and one has 30hps from Spirit and one doesnt the one with spirit is going to regen it faster.

If you have an actual argument I'm happy to hear it but so far all you have done is ignored arguments made in defense of spirit and insisted you are correct.

Sorry, you spend more time in combat to spend more time out of combat...but hey, classic is all about pain being fun...am I right?!?

But anyways, you're off topic....this topic isn't about leveling....it's about endgame. Sure a warrior gets the most from spirit....but what about other classes, they all get huge dips after warrior.

I originally started talking about all classes but you had to steer it to warrior because you're so desperate to prove your point. Well fact of the matter is like I said, spirit affects warrior regen significantly more than any other class.

So you had to attempt to prove me wrong about everything with using a small niche....nice try.

[Charge me Doctor]

Several times in this thread I have shown you the math behind this so far your response has been "you hit less hard and have less health so no". You haven't shown why the time gained by killing faster is higher than the time gained not regening through spirit gear. You've said that you just buy food anyway well again that doesn't get rid of spirit regen if two warrior need to regen 1000HP and one has 30hps from Spirit and one doesnt the one with spirit is going to regen it faster.

Oh yeah, one more thing, 1k HP is about 35-ish level range and 30 HPS would be 72 spirit advantage, which is a lot of mana users being very very sad, half of your stat budget (most likely you won't use spirit weapon and off hand and trinkets, so you must have all your other gear roll at least +6 spirit) and you spending way more time in combat than you could (which would, by the way, enforce that "you can't pull more than 1 mob as a warrior" argument, maybe that's why so many player rabble about it?)

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I originally started talking about all classes but you had to steer it to warrior because you're so desperate to prove your point. Well fact of the matter is like I said, spirit affects warrior regen significantly more than any other class.

The only reason why spirit is that effective on a warrior (and to less extent - on a rogue) is because he doesn't have any mana. Without this boost spirit would be literally useless stat on both of them and you would rather pick a +4 agi piece over +2agi and +8 spirit.

[Elias01]

Can you tell me why warrior gear had spirit on it for a bit

I dont know ask boss what drop these items why he didnt forge them more perfectly. Like maybe some herbalist drop some peacbloom into forge where item was made?

If you want believable world you have to have imperfections.

[Tantaburs]

Oh yeah, one more thing, 1k HP is about 35-ish level range and 30 HPS would be 72 spirit advantage, which is a lot of mana users being very very sad, half of your stat budget (most likely you won't use spirit weapon and off hand and trinkets, so you must have all your other gear roll at least +6 spirit) and you spending way more time in combat than you could (which would, by the way, enforce that "you can't pull more than 1 mob as a warrior" argument, maybe that's why so many player rabble about it?)

30hps is 37.5 spirit not 72 not sure where you are getting that number from.

Sorry, you spend more time in combat to spend more time out of combat...but hey, classic is all about pain being fun...am I right?!?

But anyways, you're off topic....this topic isn't about leveling....it's about endgame. Sure a warrior gets the most from spirit....but what about other classes, they all get huge dips after warrior.

I originally started talking about all classes but you had to steer it to warrior because you're so desperate to prove your point. Well fact of the matter is like I said, spirit affects warrior regen significantly more than any other class.

So you had to attempt to prove me wrong about everything with using a small niche....nice try.

Yes you spend more time in combat than you do out of combat but spirit lessens your OOC time more than str lessens your In combat time. Yes for non warriors spirit gets a lot worse but at no point did i pretend to be talking about any class except warriors. The original post that i made that was responded to was in defense of the OP saying that Spirit is a good stat for leveling warriors.

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Just 6,4 health per tick. Which puts you right on 74,8 health per tick out of combat. 6,4 is not much of a difference to make any impact, considering your health pool of 1430, and that you'll spend most of your time traveling at 100% health (or replenishing it way quicker with food or bandages). You lose about 1,7% of your DPS to boost your regen from 4,8% health per tick to whooping 5,2% per tick.

I'd like to simulate that further, but i'd need some level 40 mob stats (DPS, armour, health) and somehow include hit/crit and miss/dodge/parry for both participants of combat.

See this is where I take issue with your math. You use Percentages for the Change in DPS but flat numbers for the change in health regen. going from 4.8% to 5.2% is an 8% increase. so using your own numbers you sacrifice 1.7% dps for an 8% increase in HPS.

Also if you are spending a majority of your travel time at full hp you are leveling inefficiently

Furthermore no one is saying that Strength isn't good as I've said many times Strength is in many cases better than spirit but it is the only stat that is better than spirit and it is close between the two.

[Charge me Doctor]

30hps is 37.5 spirit not 72 not sure where you are getting that number from.

37,5 spirit is not 30 hps, it's 15 hps, or 30 health per tick.

Yes you spend more time in combat than you do out of combat but spirit lessens your OOC time more than str lessens your In combat time. Yes for non warriors spirit gets a lot worse but at no point did i pretend to be talking about any class except warriors. The original post that i made that was responded to was in defense of the OP saying that Spirit is a good stat for leveling warriors.

Your OOC time isn't decided by your health most of time, but by proximity and density of mobs (and obviously having a reason to kill). By stacking spirit you reduce you combat prowess, since it gives you zero benefit in combat you will less likely take on multiple mobs at once. I'd argue that movement speed lessens your OOC time more than anything else. Spirit is not a good stat for leveling warriors. It's not useless, but it's not good. It simply doesn't give you much in return of loss of character power. And it's usefulness is easily countered by... you know, having consumables with you, since there is just that much health you can restore between pulls.
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See this is where I take issue with your math. You use Percentages for the Change in DPS but flat numbers for the change in health regen. going from 4.8% to 5.2% is an 8% increase. so using your own numbers you sacrifice 1.7% dps for an 8% increase in HPS.

Also if you are spending a majority of your travel time at full hp you are leveling inefficiently

Furthermore no one is saying that Strength isn't good as I've said many times Strength is in many cases better than spirit but it is the only stat that is better than spirit and it is close between the two.

Because % of your health per tick is more important and "clear" measurement than "increase in HPS". I literally said that instead of regenerating 4,8% of your health, you'll be regenerating 5,2% of your health. And compared it to doing 1,7% less DPS in return, as in going from 100% DPS on 98,3% DPS. What's problematic with that wording exactly?

You are going to spend majority of your travel time at full HP, it requires just 20 ticks (21 tick) of health regen to get back to full health from 1 hp, chances are that you aren't going to drop down that low, like, ever, so more reasonable health loss for that template warrior against a:
level 37 Sorrow spinner
about 1700 health
deals 51-59 damage with 2,0 AS (according to this video i've picked first, because it popped up first - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmz1oFvcE-c 3:40:00 and further)

Since i'm not going to look up all items i've picked for template warrior to figure out exact armour values right now, lets settle with 50% DR, since it's all mail and warrior uses a shield.

numbers in brackets are for +8 str, numbers out of brackets for +8 spirit
It'll take 24,1 (23,7) seconds to take down one mob and you'll take 12(11) attacks for 306-354(280,5-324,5) damage after DR. Keep in mind tho that i don't count any crits, dodge, parry, block, misses, etc.
You'll get out of combat with one spider at 1124-1076(1149,5-1105,5) and it'll take 5 (5) ticks of health regen to get back to full health - literally no difference in OOC regen time (10 seconds in both cases), but in case of picking +8str you kill thinks 0,4 seconds faster.

Maybe 8 stat difference is just that insignificant in general?
Lets go with your example of 72 stat difference then, my template warrior has just +66 str from gear, but lets forget about that and just imagine that he've lost 72 str and gained 72 spirit instead, which brings his template to:
level 40
str 120
AP 340
AP+bonus 455 (bonus +30 AP from items and +85 from shout)
spirit 150
stam 161
health 1430

And new stats compared to old template:
str ap spd mind maxd mindd maxdd dps
120 455 2,8 50 94 141 185 58,21428571
192 599 2,8 50 94 169,8 213,8 68,5

Spirit HR
78 68,4
150 126

level 37 Sorrow spinner
about 1700 health
deals 51-59 damage with 2,0 AS

It'll take 29,2 (23,7) seconds to take down one mob and you'll take 14 (11) attacks for 357-413 (280,5-324,5) damage after DR.
You'll get out of combat with one spider at 1073-1017 (1149,5-1105,5) and it'll take 3-4 (5) ticks of health regen to get back to full health - virtually no difference in OOC regen time (6-8 seconds in case of double stamina, and 10 seconds in old template with stacked strength). Basically, you stay in combat longer, have less value in dungeons, have harder time killing things in general, but instead you recover wounds 2 seconds faster.

Again, if there are calculations with random events like dodge and crits in place (or you wish to make them) - feel free to share, but currently spirit doesn't seem to be much of an improvement over strength, regardless of "sprinkling" it on top of your character, or stacking it.

You can, by the way, make a claim of stacking str+spirit somehow, but that's too much work, because you can't reliably stack... anything, green/blue gear at lower levels have just two stats and one of them is stamina most of the time. But sure, if you are picking from +4 str +4 stamina and +4 str +4 spirit i see a reason to pick spirit, but would still go with stamina, since benefits of spirits are simply countered by having a stack of bananas in your pocket

[Kithelle]

His whole argument is basically you want to be a penny pincher so go for weaker gear just to save some gold. I don't understand why he keeps bringing up leveling in a thread about endgame gear either.

[LichCorp]

Play how you want to play - you can min/max meme specs!

[Fathr]

You must have a very vague definition of "useful" then. In case of "it's better to have +1 spirit than not having it" - yes, off course, it definitely is. In case of a warrior thinking - "this piece of gear has +2int on top of +2str against my +2str piece, I'M ROLLING ON THAT SHIT LOL" no, not at all it's, it's barely useful in this case and you are taking in away from someone else. "Every stat is useful" is very dangerous way of thinking when doing group content.

That's literally how "hunter weapon" phenomenon came to life

Back then every stat had a cost, so the fact that a plate item has spirit on it, just meant that it was how the items score was divided between things that could be usefull. Hell lots of perople used their tier sets for other things than raids. like grinding and pvp, and I liked spirit tyvm, when running between enemies.