Blizzard killed off Mythic+ on PTR

[Twdft]

Because Raids are supposed to be the endgame. Leveling ->World Content -> Dungeons -> Raids. That's how WoW is supposed to work.

Yeah well, Blizzard decides how WoW is supposed to work. And I'm sure Blizzard has the discussion every time if they even develop new raids. I'm pretty sure there is hard pushback from accountants to finally stop raids, it's a niche activity and only LfR is keeping it on.

That's the problem. Because 10's are easier than new heroic raid content, it devalues raid content rewards.

That's a thing I see repeated here a lot, how 10s are so easy, but run 10s with heroic only raiders and you'll see them struggle as much as they do in heroic raids they need 6-8 weeks to clear. Of course 10s are easy for mythic raiders who clear heroic in week 1.

[Porcodio]

Yeah well, Blizzard decides how WoW is supposed to work. And I'm sure Blizzard has the discussion every time if they even develop new raids. I'm pretty sure there is hard pushback from accountants to finally stop raids, it's a niche activity and only LfR is keeping it on.



That's a thing I see repeated here a lot, how 10s are so easy, but run 10s with heroic only raiders and you'll see them struggle as much as they do in heroic raids they need 6-8 weeks to clear. Of course 10s are easy for mythic raiders who clear heroic in week 1.

You are comparing clearing a 10 +3 on time with doing an HC boss?

Because people with HC gear can literally do a 10 no matter what even out of time and still get loot and weekly chest with nearly myth gear quality.

Meanwhile HC raider....no? That is the problem.

[Dakara]

That's a thing I see repeated here a lot, how 10s are so easy, but run 10s with heroic only raiders and you'll see them struggle as much as they do in heroic raids they need 6-8 weeks to clear. Of course 10s are easy for mythic raiders who clear heroic in week 1.

The difference between Heroic and Mythic raids is phenomenal. The guilds who struggle in Heroic (and subsequently, +10's) likely spent a bit of time in Normal first and then moved onto Heroic. These types of players work up to a +10 throughout the season.

But there are plenty of Heroic guilds who have it cleared in a few resets (at most) but get absolutely stomped in Mythic. For them, smashing out a few +10's each week is basically just free loot.

[Whistl3r]

Heroic raids are harder work than doing 10s I put in so much more effort doing heroic raids in terms of time and gold than I do my weekly chest. I'd happily not do mythic plus as I find them boring as hell but I have to get the best gear available to me.
I'd much rather my time in heroic raids gave loot that reflected what a raid group puts in. You can say heroic raids are easy but I'm certain more people get the weekly chest than clear heroic raids.

[xjentai]

While this does apply to a group of people, for the other groups you generalize to much.

We do normal first. In raid time 9h. Then do heroic, which takes us about 3 - 4 weeks (6h a week). Still M+ wise we are no where near stuck to with +10's. It seems we are (depending on affix) 4 to 6 levels behind the best clears worldwide. When they are doing 20's we do 15's.

I think the biggest perseption mistake you do imo, is thinking all are equal in heroic groups. While at Mythic level you need to have the best you can find, heroic groups (guilds) tend to take people you have fun with. And aslong as there is progress, we dont care if it takes a week or 2 to kill the end boss. Our goal on raiding is getting cutting edge achievement in a nice paced manner. And if we dont get progress we do remove the lower dps (after weeks of trying) to get that boss down. Next clear we invite them again and we dont have issues anymore as others are now carrying them.

This is imo also the reason why heroic guilds overal last and mythic guild break. Heroic guilds are build for fun in the game with (ingame-)friends. Mythic guilds are made to tackle the hardest encounters. When that fails they have nothing connecting them (also really generalizing this) and look for other guilds to progress. None of those approaches is bad. Just dont forget to enjoy the game and dont chase the loot to much

This reply was meant to @Dakara. Seems i didnt quote correctly

[erifwodahs]

Reaching Gladiator in PvP, is harder than any Mythic end of raid boss. That isn't really a question as its always been that way. Raids are scripted and you know whats going to happen, PvP is nothing of the sort.

And if you read what I said, I said doing an 10 M+ with randos is harder than the first the bosses in mythic BoD. Full guild/friend group, where all of us are 1600-2500, a 10 is fairly easy. 15s can be challenging on bad weeks, and I haven't done a 20+ yet, only a 16. But having failed MANY 16s, due to a single wipe or whatever. I can say most would agree, if you can clear a 20+ key in WoWs current M+ form, thats harder than all of M BOD.

IDK mate, if you are in guild, yes first BoD boss is a joke, as is 10+ with guildies. If you go with randoms, M+ 10 is still a joke (I am dps/tank) and have boosted some of my friends with 360 gear in groups of randoms, not looking at their score, because no one wants to play with a 360 player in their grp. While 1st BoD boss can amaze you, what kind of players join to kill it. Ofc, there are extremes on both sides.
As of pvp, well dynamic games are always hard, even if you know what to expect. Is glad as hard as world first? I don't think so (you still play against a boss, but you compete with other players) is glad harder than CE? CE is nothing, world ranks are something to strive for. I would call having Glad like being in top 50 or top 100 guilds.

[justandulas]

Considering BFA is only going to last another year and Destiny is... well itself. It's pretty much a foregone argument that Destiny is going to outlive BFA. You're trying to brag that a standalone game is going to outlive an xpac with a definitive shelf life.

No, I’m pointing out a fact. Someone said that bfa will outlive destiny 2. I corrected her saying that wow will outlive destiny for sure, but bfa wont outlive destiny 2. Destiny is also in the expansion part of its life cycle.

I wasn’t the one who started that whole thing. I was simply pointing out that they were wrong and destiny 2 will most certainly outlive wow bfa.

Wow will outlast destiny as a whole and I argued that, but she was arguing that bfa will outlive it and that bfa is the best of wow and the highest pop ever etc

[EntertainmentNihilist]

Yeah well, Blizzard decides how WoW is supposed to work. And I'm sure Blizzard has the discussion every time if they even develop new raids. I'm pretty sure there is hard pushback from accountants to finally stop raids, it's a niche activity and only LfR is keeping it on.



That's a thing I see repeated here a lot, how 10s are so easy, but run 10s with heroic only raiders and you'll see them struggle as much as they do in heroic raids they need 6-8 weeks to clear. Of course 10s are easy for mythic raiders who clear heroic in week 1.

Not really, raids are about the only thing most players can agree are in a good state right now (aside from tier sets, which is less a problem with the raids themselves and more a problem with the reward system).

[Kralljin]

Maybe if raiding were actually fun and enjoyable to more it would be more popular.

This is just such a vague argument.

What is "more fun"?

More / less difficult?
Doubt most people would complain over the difficulty right now, barring perhaps the high end guilds where only the final boss presents a real challenge.

Better encounters?
How do you make encounters "better"?

Greater variety?
Make more "extreme" encounters that favour certain specs?

Or should it just straight up reward superior loot?
Getting better loot is most certainly fun to a lot of people.


What is "fun" to people is extremely subjective, same as a lot of people complained who preferred 25man raiding in Cata / MoP, but faced difficulties replacing people, but also the internal struggle of certain cliques considering to break away in order to found their "more sucessful" 10man raiding group.

That's like suggesting to make "PvP more fun" in order to combat the dwindling participation numbers there, it's an absolutely hollow argument whose meaning can be entirely different depending on which person you ask.

Fact simply is, the greater the group is, the more logistical effort goes into organizing it, you need proper schedule and so forth, you cannot bypass this no matter what.
More organization required = less fun, both for the organizer (unless they happen to enjoy that sort of work) and the "organized", because they have to adhere by the schedule.
The less people you have, less organization is required, Blizzard can't help you there.

[Zantera]

The raids themselves are good, and you could argue they keep getting better and better. I mean WoD is considered by many to be either the worst or second worst expansion, yet raid-wise I would argue that it beats better expansions like MoP or Wotlk when it comes to the consistency of the raids. I think having so many difficulty options does a lot to undermine the quality of the raids though. A lot of people seem happy only doing LFR or normal which means they wont get to experience these fights the way they were designed which is a shame.

[FelPlague]

Reaching Gladiator in PvP, is harder than any Mythic end of raid boss. That isn't really a question as its always been that way. Raids are scripted and you know whats going to happen, PvP is nothing of the sort.

ha... .HA... HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH

[Shakana]

i am more concerned about the fact that this affix seems to favor range.

so now we have raids that are filled with ranges, and m+ that are going to be filled with ranges.

world of rangecraft.

Same, this new affix ain't even pug friendly, if you can't do it with guild then you'll have alot troubles doing it with randoms.

[Justpassing]

Yeah that guy's just stirring the pot.

[agentsi]

ha... .HA... HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH

You can be a bad to mediocre player and clear Mythic raid content. You cannot be either of those and reach gladiator. The skill cap is much higher in PvP. Even with cheese specs. Any gladiator, could jump into a Mythic raid team and perform well enough to clear all Mythic content if everyone else is of similar skill. Not every mythic raider is capable of reaching gladiator, I would wager most couldn't break past the 1800 cap.

[FelPlague]

You can be a bad to mediocre player and clear Mythic raid content. You cannot be either of those and reach gladiator. The skill cap is much higher in PvP. Even with cheese specs. Any gladiator, could jump into a Mythic raid team and perform well enough to clear all Mythic content if everyone else is of similar skill. Not every mythic raider is capable of reaching gladiator, I would wager most couldn't break past the 1800 cap.

Except asmongold did, a few times.
and he cant even get through mythic.
soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

[cparle87]

No, I’m pointing out a fact. Someone said that bfa will outlive destiny 2. I corrected her saying that wow will outlive destiny for sure, but bfa wont outlive destiny 2. Destiny is also in the expansion part of its life cycle.

I wasn’t the one who started that whole thing. I was simply pointing out that they were wrong and destiny 2 will most certainly outlive wow bfa.

Wow will outlast destiny as a whole and I argued that, but she was arguing that bfa will outlive it and that bfa is the best of wow and the highest pop ever etc

Yeah, I'm agreeing with you. Whoever said that wasn't thinking straight.

- - - Updated - - -

Not really, raids are about the only thing most players can agree are in a good state right now (aside from tier sets, which is less a problem with the raids themselves and more a problem with the reward system).

Anytime anyone says "most players" agree on something we know they're simply being rhetorical. There is no single subject in this entire game that "most players" have ever agreed on.

[agentsi]

Except asmongold did, a few times.
and he cant even get through mythic.
soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

That has more to do with him being a douche, and unable to find a guild/raid team that wants to put up with his annoying personality. Not his skill as a player. I don't like him personally, but he does seem to have a decent grasp of the game.

[FelPlague]

That has more to do with him being a douche, and unable to find a guild/raid team that wants to put up with his annoying personality. Not his skill as a player. I don't like him personally, but he does seem to have a decent grasp of the game.

hes been in a guild that raids for a long time now....

also someone who cant get a group together is unable to do mythic, but can do gladiator? hmmmm sounds pretty funny...

[Kuruption]

That has more to do with him being a douche, and unable to find a guild/raid team that wants to put up with his annoying personality. Not his skill as a player. I don't like him personally, but he does seem to have a decent grasp of the game.

So with a decent grasp of the game, you can get gladiator?

Good to know.

[Viromand]

So is this comfirmed yet? Will this go live, cause in season 2 during the first week the highest you could get was 385 which was the season 1 mythic raid gear. With CoS beeing 420 and 425 maybe 420 will be the first week reward, and that is what is on the ptr.

I hope they leave it the way it was. I have a 5 man guild and we only do mythic+. We only raid and clear HC in pugs we start.
Raiding HC is not even worth with a guild, not all players are equal in skill and having 2-3 set dates per week is a lot less fun then just using the tool on a day we want to or all have time.

I dont really get why they would change it. I agree that Mythic raiding should be the most rewarding. And I also like the idea I read in this thread if you manage to beat a 15 intime!!!!! you should get a 415 item in the chest.

If you want to raid heroic you can do so, if you want mythic azerite gear and dont run mythic raid, yeah you need to do m+, and if you do higher keys you are rewarded with more residium.

If you want to do Mythic+ but want the Opu-trinket you need to pug the first 4 bosses or just opu. Your azerite gear maybe a bit worth than the once from the mythic raid, but still.

Overall I think it is comparable m+10 and hc, yes not 100% the same difficulty. Season 2 affix is a complete joke i get that, still clearing HC with a pug in the first 2 weeks is also possible. If you compare freehold to HC its not even close, if you compare SotS with bad affixes with HC, I would argue some bosses in HC are alot easier. I actually like this tier alot (well except jaina HC due to the first 2 phases beeing the most boring ones in a long time).

In terms of gear I would say it is roughly the same comparing 10s and hc, if you have a guild with 20 raiders and all 20 can clear +10 or higher in the first 2 weeks your guild should have no problem clearing HC in the first 2 weeks. If you take the best tank, the best healer and three of your best dps and clear +10 but the rest of your guild can`t i quess your guild doenst clear HC during the first 2 weeks.
In terms of gear, lets say you raid 3hrs on 2 days a week.(effective Raidtime, excluding breaks and stuff like that). If you spent the same time doing m+10 you maybe do 4 dungeons 2 intime and 2 overtime, so a total of 10 items, 2 items per person. Roughly the same as HC raiding (if your guild can clear during first 2 weeks). Sure RNG can change that alot, i killed first 4 bosses and got 3 items, and did 3 m+10 and got 0.

I believe this is the way you have to look at it. If I read stuff like I clear m+15 easy, I believe you but does your whole guild clear +15 easy. If you whole guild has the dps, hps and tanks to clear +11-15 constantly during the first 2 weeks of the season but you only killed 4-5 hc bosses in 2 weeks, I wouldnt believe you.

But the most important thing is you dont have to do one or the other. In Legion i rarely did m+ not even for the chest. In BfA i rarely raid, sure there are 1-2 items i would like to have but I dont want to raid. (Ok to be 100% fair here, you are kinda forced to to a m+10 each weak for the Residuum I believe that to be more of a Azerite gear problem than a overall m+/hc problem).

Another problem is the chest. It is far more valuable than the 415 item the raiders got. It has Residuum in it. You can get weapons and good trinkets from it. And you get them every week. I would prefer solving this issue by having raiders get a chest aswell. Maybe even make it scale, if you kill half the raid you get a chest like if you did a +10, if you clear the whole raid you get a +15 chest.

If you raid hc and do m+ on another day you invested more time and should be rewarded. Killing more bosses on HC makes m+ easier and you get gear there that makes the raid easier. I do believe they are about the same difficulty.(Again depending on Boss and Affix and Dungeon, talking about roughly the same. If you compare the last three bosses to the easiest possible Freehold+10 sure I agree alot easier, you have to compare the whole raid to all dungeons and affixes since the whole raid drops 400 ilvl and all +10 drop 400.)

Give Raiders a weekly chest, scale it with progress, give people who atleast killed 3 bosses or 4 a +10 and if you clear completely a +15. Cause I totally agree with the fact that HC raiders shouldnt be forced to go m+ and m+ players shouldnt be forced to raid. Ant the titan residuum, Ap and 410 item currently are to powerfull compared to what HC raiders get. This way you dont need to do m+ to clear heroic or heroic for higher keys.

I am saying this as a player that almost only does M+, I thinks it is unfair that a M+ gets Stuff for a 415 Azerite gear and a 410 Item each week.