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  1. #481
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    hes been in a guild that raids for a long time now....

    also someone who cant get a group together is unable to do mythic, but can do gladiator? hmmmm sounds pretty funny...
    The BfA Season 1 Drake was basically free for anyone who had a halfway decent grasp of 3v3.

    Season 1 had a serious Rating inflation, combine that with the fact that you get a Gladiator mount now for 50 wins at or above 2,4k in Rated 3v3, you could have gotten the Glad Mount rather easily.

    I've killed Jaina and G'huun Mythic rather early and getting the BfA S1 Drake was still more difficult to me (despite this, i finished BfA S1 on like 2,6k in 3v3).
    In PvE, you can laser focus on your shit and succeed, in 3v3, you need to have far more awareness on multiple things.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2019-06-13 at 07:21 PM.

  2. #482
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    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    M+ should never have dropped any gear to begin with.
    M+ should have normalized all gear, to a specific iLevel. Only then can you meassure people's skill
    Um, challenge modes say hello. They sucked. M+ is far superior to being in normalized gear. Also, it tends to lead to comp stacking, just like M+.
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  3. #483
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    hes been in a guild that raids for a long time now....

    also someone who cant get a group together is unable to do mythic, but can do gladiator? hmmmm sounds pretty funny...
    It's easier to find 2 people willing to deal with an annoying prick than it is to find 19.

    How often have you achieved CE? How many times have you hit gladiator?

  4. #484
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    The solution to the gear problem is simple.

    PVP gear needs to budget for Resilience.
    You can use it elsewhere, but it's most effective in PVP

    Raid gear needs to be budgeted to a new stat that is only used in Raids (like Uldir azerite had).
    You can use the gear in the open world, in PVP, etc, but part of the budget for that item is not a factor.

    M+ gear needs its own stat to which it can be budgeted.
    Wear it wherever you want, in PVP if you're feeling frisky, but its only full use comes from M+.

    Everyone can run around with bags of gear, purples falling out of their pockets, for whatever game modes they want.
    Then, ilvl only matters for your segment of content.
    No crossover, no worry that M+ are stronger than raiders or vice versa.

    Just bags and bags of purples with tons of bank stops to swap gear around.

  5. #485
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    This is just such a vague argument.

    What is "more fun"?

    More / less difficult?
    Doubt most people would complain over the difficulty right now, barring perhaps the high end guilds where only the final boss presents a real challenge.

    Better encounters?
    How do you make encounters "better"?

    Greater variety?
    Make more "extreme" encounters that favour certain specs?

    Or should it just straight up reward superior loot?
    Getting better loot is most certainly fun to a lot of people.


    What is "fun" to people is extremely subjective, same as a lot of people complained who preferred 25man raiding in Cata / MoP, but faced difficulties replacing people, but also the internal struggle of certain cliques considering to break away in order to found their "more sucessful" 10man raiding group.

    That's like suggesting to make "PvP more fun" in order to combat the dwindling participation numbers there, it's an absolutely hollow argument whose meaning can be entirely different depending on which person you ask.

    Fact simply is, the greater the group is, the more logistical effort goes into organizing it, you need proper schedule and so forth, you cannot bypass this no matter what.
    More organization required = less fun, both for the organizer (unless they happen to enjoy that sort of work) and the "organized", because they have to adhere by the schedule.
    The less people you have, less organization is required, Blizzard can't help you there.
    Its really not a hollow argument. That is what game development is centered around at all times. Just because its vague or is very difficult to answer doesn't make it less important or valid. WoW is the perfect example of that question not being successfully answered for years at a time. The population dwindles and they continue to try and fine tune reward structures but that only shifts the population around while slowly losing people. If the answer to wanting to raid is "I just wanted better gear" they've pretty much failed because now that player is only looking to increase their characters power as a source of entertainment and not actually raid for the experience. For those people they just drop gear from anywhere, doing anything, and they will follow for that whether it be raids or dungeons or really anything. When they all shift away from raids for another piece of content, simply for item level, it exposes how many people don't actually care about or enjoy the experience of raiding itself. The same goes for any other content within the game too. They should be focused on providing appropriate rewards from any type of content and improving those experiences for the people who enjoy them rather than trying to force people in one direction or another for item level. They should be trying to figure out why so many people only care about the rewards they loot instead of simply enjoying the activities they participate in while they play.
    Last edited by Erolian; 2019-06-13 at 10:43 PM.

  6. #486
    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey One View Post
    Its really not a hollow argument.
    It is because you failed provide any concrete examples what one could possibly improve "the fun" of raids or what is currently not fun about them.

    Most of your text follows suit, a lot of empty wordshells that you fail to give any meaning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey One View Post
    it exposes how many people don't actually care about raiding itself.
    You miss the point, in a progression based game, the assumption "people are just doing what they like" is faulty, because the progression itself is fun and most people choose the most efficient path for it.

    Content needs to be both and rewarding in an RPG, if of those pillars falls, said content very often gets abandoned by the playerbase.

    How many people want to raid or not is not exactly provable (at least with our means), but the fact of matter is that people aren't going to raid if an easier path towards the progression reward exists.
    Might as well hand out the weekly M+ for free without doing a weekly key and see how it affects M+ participation rates beyond the first weeks, it would plummet into the ground. - Does this mean everybody never cared about M+ as content?

    I suggest to read on the Mechanar Syndrome, because it captures it pretty well, people didn't do Mechanar because it was the best dungeon ever, but because it was the most efficient one.
    It has nothing to do with people not caring about the other dungeons, but if you had just time for a single Heroic, you did Mechanar heroic mostly.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2019-06-13 at 10:59 PM.

  7. #487
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    It is because you failed provide any concrete examples what one could possibly improve "the fun" of raids or what is currently not fun about them.

    Most of your text follows suit, a lot of empty wordshells that you fail to give any meaning.



    I suggest you read on the so called "Mechanar Syndrome" that occured during early / mid bc.

    Because you miss the point, in a progression based game, the assumption "people are just doing what they like" is faulty, because the progression itself is fun and most people choose the most efficient path for it.

    That's why PvP participation during TBC was probably the highest, because the PvP gear was pretty decent in comparison to PvE and you could get it by just doing 10 games per week, or even sit AFK in a bg later.
    So you wanted a list of what isn't fun about raiding? Organizing raids, being held to a strict schedule, dealing with larger numbers of people, actually caring about Blizzard balancing, the cost of consumables for people who don't sell carries or enjoy farming herbs, watching fellow raiders burn out grinding AP via content they're never going to be interested in. I'm someone that actually sticks around and continues to raid though. I enjoy progression and doing new bosses so I just deal with the other stuff. However that doesn't mean that I don't see how many people quit or are dissatisfied with raiding and/or BFA in general and the last couple of expansions in particular outside of that. Guilds dying, players burning out on content they don't want but have enormous incentive to do etc. Raiding is declining for a reason and I sincerely doubt its over item level concerns. They could attempt to tackle most of those things outside of scheduled raiding since that's unavoidable if you want the same players to show up
    Last edited by Erolian; 2019-06-13 at 10:59 PM.

  8. #488
    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey One View Post
    So you wanted a list of what isn't fun about raiding? Organizing raids, being held to a strict schedule, dealing with larger numbers of people,
    How is Blizzard supposed to solve this?

    You earlier argued that Blizzard should make Raids fun again, but your very first point is utterly unsolveable by Blizzard unless they basically remove raiding and just turn everything into party sized content.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey One View Post
    actually caring about Blizzard balancing
    Balance is not a thing for M+? Even high keys?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey One View Post
    the cost of consumables for people who don't sell carries or enjoy farming herbs, watching fellow raiders burn out grinding AP via content they're never going to be interested in.
    So you don't use any potions, food or Flask for M+, but want to use them for raids suddenly?

    Especially the AP part is funny because that's pretty much a Mythic raider only thing - the one raiding crowd that is in its reward structure not really affected by M+, unlike normal or heroic raiders.
    The traits beyond the Outer ring are barely relevant and insanely easy to achieve.

    However, don't those traits also affect your performance in M+?

    To me it seems more like you have a problem that Raid logging isn't much of a thing anymore, but those things you listed (aside from the schedule stuff) applies 100% to M+ as well.

    Even then, especially the non-mythic raiding crowd can easily pass over those things because that content is rather leniently tuned in terms of numbers.

  9. #489
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    How is Blizzard supposed to solve this?

    You earlier argued that Blizzard should make Raids fun again, but your very first point is utterly unsolveable by Blizzard unless they basically remove raiding and just turn everything into party sized content.



    Balance is not a thing for M+? Even high keys?



    So you don't use any potions, food or Flask for M+, but want to use them for raids suddenly?

    Especially the AP part is funny because that's pretty much a Mythic raider only thing - the one raiding crowd that is in its reward structure not really affected by M+, unlike normal or heroic raiders.
    The traits beyond the Outer ring are barely relevant and insanely easy to achieve.

    However, don't those traits also affect your performance in M+?

    To me it seems more like you have a problem that Raid logging isn't much of a thing anymore, but those things you listed (aside from the schedule stuff) applies 100% to M+ as well.

    Even then, especially the non-mythic raiding crowd can easily pass over those things because that content is rather leniently tuned in terms of numbers.
    You're right that those things do impact M+ too to varying degrees but its not about making raiding better or more fun than M+. Those are just things that are bad right now if you choose to push any content and raiding combines them with its own particular organizational and time commitment requirements creating a scenario that's pretty much chasing people away at the higher end. I have no idea what its like as a heroic guild or lower though and you'd have to ask those people what could make raiding more interesting to them.

    I think there is a 10/25 man vs 20 argument hidden in here somewhere too. I agree that they're better able to balance a solely 20 man mythic difficulty but I'm not sure I agree that that was a better solution than 10 man raiding for quite a lot of raiders and smaller servers in terms of an enjoyable experience
    Last edited by Erolian; 2019-06-13 at 11:33 PM.

  10. #490
    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey One View Post
    You're right that those things do impact M+ too to varying degrees but its not about making raiding better or more fun than M+. Those are just things that are bad right now if you choose to push any content and raiding combines them with its own particular organizational and time commitment requirements creating a scenario that's pretty much chasing people away at the higher end. I have no idea what its like as a heroic guild or lower though and you'd have to ask those people what could make raiding more interesting to them.

    I think there is a 10/25 man vs 20 argument hidden in here somewhere too. I agree that they're better able to balance a solely 20 man mythic difficulty but I'm not sure I agree that that was a better solution than 10 man raiding for quite a lot of raiders and smaller servers in terms of an enjoyable experience
    High end content is just different to the rest of the game, you dont need guilds for heroic content. You can just start a pug and clear heroic in a few weeks. Maybe even a couple of mythic bosses. you dont need to farm AP all day cause the effect the inner rings have is small. It is the same with pushing high keys in m+ you need consumables there, invis pots, etc.
    Having 20 people with all azerite rings active could be the difference in killing a boss on mythic or beeing able to intime a +18 cause someone got a shield and didnt die or healed by inner ring trait. Maybe you only need 4 instead of 5 healers cause of that. This doenst affect the rest of the content and thats why people get burned out in high end content.
    We are 5 people currently mostly doing M+, on wednesday Ill ask if we want to clear HC BoD or CoS. If we want to i´ll try and find a date. If our healer doesnt have time, we will start a pug as 4. We enjoy the HC pug. And we enjoy playing the game this way. But I can tell you 100% if all 5 of us join a mythic guild 1 will be kicked cause his work schedule doenst allow him to be active all the time. 2 will be pissed of not having the freedom of saying no to farming AP or not beeing able to skip raiding when he wants to. the other 2 will maybe stay but after some time 1 will like to play with the other 3 again and we will start going back to m+ and hc pug. so the last one would be me not investing every day of the week raiding mythic, doing hc pugs with my friends and m+ with my friends.

    So yes I agree unless you are 100% invested into clearing mythic as fast as possible or getting the best gear and titles and mounts. It is hard to keep the motivation going for mythic raiders. If you dont care about mounts and titles just enjoy playing this game from time to time hc raiding and m+ are way more appelling to you, the gear difference is not that much about 5ilvl at the end of the season.
    Your points are valid but thats why Mythic Raiders do have the better gear and mounts titles, its harder to organize, more grindy etc. The rest of the game is not like that.

  11. #491
    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    M+ should never have dropped any gear to begin with.
    M+ should have normalized all gear, to a specific iLevel. Only then can you meassure people's skill
    Out of curiosity did they ever fix the issue with iLvl normalised gear that made certain DPS specs (namely ones that relied on crit strike rating and crit procs) completely toilet compared to ones that scaled with other stats (namely the haste-based DPS specs), because I remember that making challenge modes and that ring of trials solo-challenge thing frustrating in MoP, or does combat work very differently now?

    Question not directed at you personally, and sorry if it's woefully offtopic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Posting here is primarily a way to strengthen your own viewpoint against common counter-arguments.

  12. #492
    Make the individual M+ instances have weekly loot lockouts like regular mythic dungeons (to kill off the necessity for raiders to farm them like crazy) and have the weekly +10 reward ~Heroic level loot/+15-18 reward Mythic level loot (depending on tuning) and I think it would be fine. The number of items should probably be 2 at least every other week then though because otherwise M+ would not work as a proper gear progression path.

  13. #493
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Out of curiosity did they ever fix the issue with iLvl normalised gear that made certain DPS specs (namely ones that relied on crit strike rating and crit procs) completely toilet compared to ones that scaled with other stats (namely the haste-based DPS specs), because I remember that making challenge modes and that ring of trials solo-challenge thing frustrating in MoP, or does combat work very differently now?

    Question not directed at you personally, and sorry if it's woefully offtopic.
    In MoP the problem was that higher gear had more socket in them since sockets were not disabled back than making challenge mode alot easier with gear.

    In WoD challenge mode rewarded gear on a daily basis, and some scaling classes were absolute garbage for gold time.

  14. #494
    Quote Originally Posted by Viromand View Post
    In WoD challenge mode rewarded gear on a daily basis, and some scaling classes were absolute garbage for gold time.
    So that's a "no" then?

    Was WoD the last time they had iLvl normalised content?
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Posting here is primarily a way to strengthen your own viewpoint against common counter-arguments.

  15. #495
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    So that's a "no" then?

    Was WoD the last time they had iLvl normalised content?
    AFAIK, it is. It’s a fantastic idea if done correctly. They could easily give every class a template of stats that make their class smooth and perfect to play but nerf/buff the output as a % scale. The problem with it though, is when you come out of the content and your proper gear is not up to scratch and your class then feels sluggish again....

  16. #496
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    So that's a "no" then?

    Was WoD the last time they had iLvl normalised content?
    Im pretty sure after WoD the only content with Ilvl normalised is Timewalking.

    Uldir Azeritetrait was something that could be used in the future.

  17. #497
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamushi View Post
    Make the individual M+ instances have weekly loot lockouts like regular mythic dungeons (to kill off the necessity for raiders to farm them like crazy) and have the weekly +10 reward ~Heroic level loot/+15-18 reward Mythic level loot (depending on tuning) and I think it would be fine. The number of items should probably be 2 at least every other week then though because otherwise M+ would not work as a proper gear progression path.
    Terrible idea, this would actually kill the game for many. Imagine the tens of thousands of players that do nothing but Mythic+ having nothing to do all week....might as well unsub. Not to mention finding mythic + groups would be substantially harder if this was implemented.
    You asked a question and I gave you the answer. You might not agree with or fully understand the answer, but, it is correct because of reasons.”

  18. #498
    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey One View Post
    but its not about making raiding better or more fun than M+.
    ...but it kinda is?

    I mean, in your very first post you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey One View Post
    Maybe if raiding were actually fun and enjoyable to more it would be more popular.
    This line was explicitly picked up by me.
    Whether it's supposed to be "more fun" than M+ is another tale, but you literally raised the point that Blizzard should make raiding more fun.

    But those points basically only correlate with raiding, especially AP is a gamewide system that doesn't affect just raiding.
    Whether you say "Those systems aren't fun" or "raiding isn't fun" is a major difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey One View Post
    I think there is a 10/25 man vs 20 argument hidden in here somewhere too. I agree that they're better able to balance a solely 20 man mythic difficulty but I'm not sure I agree that that was a better solution than 10 man raiding for quite a lot of raiders and smaller servers in terms of an enjoyable experience
    Here is my big problem with your stance: I have no idea what sort of difficulty you are talking about.

    10 / 25 man discussion is a discussion basically limited to high end raiders, the current mythic raiders, as any other difficulty is flexible in terms of size, with 10 people being the minimum.

    However, those people (meaning mythic raider) are barely affected by M+ reward structure outside of the first week(s), as M+ relies on Titanforging in order to be on par with mythic loot.

    Mythic raids aren't "dying" due to M+, normal and heroic raids are, because their rewards are in direct competition with M+ loot, unlike Mythic which still holds the most highest base loot.
    To be clear on that, in my opinion, Mythic raiding still holds a greater incentive due to the superior loot reward, while normal / heroic raiding lack this advantage over M+, thus they are declining.

    The fact that you however now seemingly limit this discussion to the "high end" difficulty confuses me, because earlier you also raised the argument that:
    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey One View Post
    actually caring about Blizzard balancing
    Despite the fact that if you are a "high end" raider, you cared about balance since freaking Vanilla - You always had to care about balance if you chose this sort of raiding.

    And Balance is most certainly not an advantage of M+ once you start pushing into keys above +15.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2019-06-14 at 03:47 PM.

  19. #499
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Mythic raids aren't "dying" due to M+, normal and heroic raids are, because their rewards are in direct competition with M+ loot, unlike Mythic which still holds the most highest base loot.
    To be clear on that, in my opinion, Mythic raiding still holds a greater incentive due to the superior loot reward, while normal / heroic raiding lack this advantage over M+, thus they are declining.
    Is it declining? I do agree with what you are saying. But I feel that the number of guilds are declining. Not HC raid by itself. Ive seen alot of guilds disband and alot of them start pugging it is just the more efficent way to get gear and clear the Raid. Excluding guilds who can clear heroic in weeks 1-3.

    I do get that the chest beeing almost mandatory cause it is the best non mythicraid gear.

    I do have to ask, who are we actually talking about when it comes to m+ vs hc. At the start of a season a player who raids 2 days a week, and does a third day +10 to maybe get 1-3 items after 3-4 hours, the same guy can search for another raid and kill the third HC boss over and over again and use extra loot an that day and get maybe 2 items. Yeah this guy should be rewarded for doing it.
    Mythic guilds who want to be top 30 to improve chances of getting there and doing alot of m+, they should be rewarded aswell. If you want to do +20 or higher you may need to kill some mythic bosses for better gear.

    Exluding the weekly chest. Are people really that pissed cause a M+ gets a few more items than an hc raider? People talk about it like you do one evening of 3h m+ and get 10 usefull items a WF weapon and 1 Titanforged BiS trinket. Its like saying you are pissed cause a heroic raider can get up to 2 415 items almost for free.

    People should do what is fun for them, if you dont like M+ you shouldnt have to do it cause of a weekly chest. If you dont like HC you shouldnt have to do it either. Still getting basically a WF nhc item for doing a +10 or above doesnt feel very rewarding.
    If your problem is that you dont like m+ cause its not fun ok dont do it. But if its not fun that people who do it get the same gear no one can help you with that.

    Do what you is fun for you. You like high end mythic raiding, balancing, getting the best gear at the start to maximize dps, organizing needing 20 active people, thats all part of it. Has been and most likely always will be. But its not mandatory for a HC only guild to run multiple m+.

    Find what you think is fun and do it, its not about making the ones who have fun not having as much fun. If you find nothing well you can maybe do Heroic Warfront next season. But if you dont like m+ think heroic is too easy, mythic is to time consuming, and worldquest doesnt bring you joy either. But if you cant find joy in a game with multiple content options, thats not the game for that person.
    Last edited by Viromand; 2019-06-14 at 05:38 PM.

  20. #500
    Quote Originally Posted by xblubbx View Post
    What do you mean? The difficulty in m+ was increased several times during Legion. Or did you mean something else?
    Not for 7.1, for 7.1 they just moved the chest threshold to +15 instead of +10.

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