Poll: Should Azshara be feature heavily in 9.0?

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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    I wouldn't call adding arcane essence to the water arcane practice.
    Nor would I … the Moonwells and Well of Eternity and their uses are the evidence that the night elves of the long vigil had the arcane always a part of them, suffusing htem, connected to them... this is different from arcane practice, which is using that arcane energy for spell work (mage spells, building cities, creating stuff etc). What the long vigil group did was ban arcane practice..not ban the arcane - you can't ban the arcane, it is a magical source of energy that is all over the planet, and partly makes up the night elves themselves.. it is part of their origin and make up, and is responsible for the world creatd and shaped...you can't ban that, and night elves' story has them made from the arcane and connected to an arcane well.. however what they can do, is not practice it -- which our playable group did in the long vigil to prevent the legion.. but have started doing it again.

    That said, priestesses of Elune kept arcane secrets in their libraries. However, according to Vestia Moonspear called her fellow priestesses ignorant, hinting at them simply forgetting to read ancient books or even forbidding them.
    I suspect the priestesses of Elune have a deep connection to the arcane blizzard hasn't fleshed out yet. In blizzards lore, Elune is one of the first things they discerned from peering into the well.. it was their fascination with her through the well that led to more studying. although not directly stated, if you read between the lines, it is the the priesthood that invents magecraft. Magecraft would have been those who focused purley on the practical and physical applications of utilising the arcane energy and developing that. Which must mean a measure of that has always been a part of the priesthood, and they would have knowledge and secrets of it - their focus was the philosophical and moral implications of the goddess of the Well. The arcane boosts health, life expectancy, enhances growth (stature), empowers strength - and we know mages who come from the elves use the arcane for food conjuring, some of the arcane specialists can restore health via evocation - all this implies that this priesthood probably learnt how to do things with the arcane no one else knows. Remember the high elves who teach the humans arcane magic do so from a state of having lost most of the knowledge from the kaldorei empire, and the priesthood of Elune doesn't go with them, so none of its secrets go with them as they reject Elune - meaning that we really don't know the extent of the arcane to which the priesthood nows and how.. they may be using the arcafne in totally different ways.. We already know that night elves when they cast certain spells like Moonfire, Starfall are drawing arcane energy from the very stars.. something we don't see blood elves do or high elves, but we see night elves and nightborne.


    The biggest evidence is how the priesthood wield arcane energy abilities.. Tyrande and starfall, and you see it time and time again, End time instance, ritual of the darkmoon, night elven priesthood of Elune has a connection tot he arcane.


    Anyway, Vestia Moonspear has a point, but you can understand that after the sundering, night elf society are horrified with what practicing the arcane can do --i.e. call the legion, you also have to remember that these people believed the arcane and their achievements were really the best thing for the world and were doing good, yet all they brought in the end was the legion and destruction - there would be a reticence concerning applying the arcane, even without the ban - however 10,000 years is a long time, and a lot of new revealtions have come to line - including realising the demons weren't after their magic, addiction is curable and preventable without abstention, and evidence arcane use from the Well can be masked from the twisting nether.

    I think Vestia is an example of many new priests who have no relucatnace or reticence aobut the arcane -- it's not tos ay they like or condone addiction, Tyrande, who fights for t eh shen'dralar to returna nd lifts the ban on the arcane would think as Vestia thinks, yet we see her utterly despise arcane addiction and the Nightwell's corruption. Althoguh at this point, Tyrande has no idea what the legion is truly after, it is later when Illidan returns, and Magni is there too, that it will filter to her that their Well was never the goal, just a feast for demons, the goal was Azeroth herself.



    Stargazing is still important in high elf society, as we can see from their observatory in Magisters' Terrace. Moreover, Nightborne too have forgotten to sleep at day because they couldn't recognise what hour is it. As for naga, we can't really see whether they are diurnal or nocturnal because they live underwater.
    I agree that stargazing happens in high elf society, so does loving forests and nature - I mean they settled in a land that reminded them most of Kalimdor and its forests, they kept it in eternal spring too, called their city Silvermoon - even though they abandoned all these things from their kaldorei past as their main focus, you still see them using as much of their knowledge of arcane learnt from that period, they carry on the high nobility from the night elf phase, just without all the decadence and recklessness that dominated the highborne (which is also present in the nightborne).

    i'm not sure the nightborne have forgotten to sleep at day, they've been in perpetual night, and they are night elven, the day would be even more annoying for them.. and when the shield goes down, they are delighted to see the stars once more. In the city you see a lot of mimicking of starlight in tree boughs and other places -- very much still night elven at their core.. look at all the shrine's to Elune too in the city, that haven't changed at all, they are well tended, with offerings on them from the people -- this happens in the commons section - you don't see any of that in the elite section. Remember Suramar was the capital of the priesthood of Elune, but they all followed tyrande and the resistance in the march towards Zin'Azshari.

    Arcane is pure definition of elf and reason of their very existence.
    It is, the night elves even moreso than the high elves. People think somehow because the use of arcane..i.e. arcane practice was banned amongst one of the night elven groups, that this somehow means they are no longer arcane gifted or arcane connected or their very make up somehow stopped being arcane centred... lol.. no. All that stopped was that they didn't use their power and their gift, - their reason was to prevent the legion from returning. We see other night elven groups like the nightborne, shen'dralar and Moonguard, continue to use the arcane prolificly.

    But yes.. all elves, night and high are very much arcane defined. It isn't all there is to them, and some groups the practice of the arcane plays a much larger role.

    Magic addiction is seen in every group aside from night elves, but they feed on moonwells, so it isn't a stretch that they are addicted aswell. However, Darnassians are the only group seen not to practice arcane. Elune, at the other hand was once an important part of ancient Kal'dorei empire but it was inherited only by Darnassians. As for druidism, it wasn't a part of Kal'dorei Empire as Malfurion was the first druid on Azeroth.
    Corection, magic addiction is in every group aside from the Long vigil night elves...you must not forget that they are not the only night elven group, and addiction was very much a part of the shen'dralar and nightborne till recently they've overcome (shen'dralar) or being cured (nightborne).

    We know the darnassians aren't addicted because we now understand elven addiction. Elven addiction comes from living out of balance with nature. You can be suffused with the arcane and wield it profusely without being addicted... night elven addiction likely arose when they started substituting things in nature/and of nature even eating (in the case of the nightborne) with the arcane. I can sorta understand how this might have happened. when you discover the arcane cand o anything,a nd your continuous research yields applications and ways to do all manner of things, it is very easy to rely more and more on it, and use it instead of natural things. Why walk or lift things up when you can just conjure them, teleport, or telekinesis them... in the pre-sundering era, they weren't aware of addiction yet, so the arcane had no drawbacks that they could see. even if Cenarius warned about excessive use, they had no evidence.

    Eventually though, when recklessness and arrogance replaced the typical night elf nobility and responsibility, then people started noticing. We know Malfurion noticed, we also know other highborne and citizens noticed too. The Valewalkers were formed to solve the problem and hopefully save the Queen and highborne caste in time to come to their senses, but they didn't manage to in time.

    However now they have done. The long vigil night elves though suffused and connected to the arcane, are not addicted because their life is balanced, nature keeps the arcane in balance. This is why the high elves had a mild form of addiction, constantly suffused with the sunwell, while they never got reckless like the invasion period night elves, an addiction did occur which they didn't bother to balance with nature or live in a balanced way that would counteract it. But their addiction is different, maybe because of their change..? Remember the night elf is naturally arcane attuned in his natural state, perhaps in changing from night elf to high elf, some of that ability to process or contain the arcane was lost, requiring something extra from high elves like the divine to stave off their addiction. It's not like their is official detailed spelling out of this.. we are just reading in between the lines and going on the information we have. We have been given the explanation and solution for night elf addiction, how it works, how to prevent it, and how to cure it. nature balances the arcane. Harmony is the key to full living. This might be a universal principle, but for night elves it works, for high elves and humans we don't know. Humans don't have addiction issues, but it is theorised they would do if exposed enough. but we know from the high elves, the light can balance this out. The draenei don't get addicted, but the light is a part of all of them, so maybe htat is their balance. whereas for night elves it is done so in nature.



    Not really, blood elves have the same titles: magister, grand magister, arcanist, astromancer, etc. Their forestry is very similar to that of Azshara, they transform the environment to one they like.
    They carry motifs over from the night elf era, no doubt, and it's more than magecraft titles, we can expect similar orders amongst the highborne and nightborne - this is where the blood elves get it from - doesn't mean their culture or way of practice is the same.. people look and go hey, you have cities, we have cities..therefore we are are the same.. no. Similarities yes, but the same? no. The fact that the high elves are sun focused, day focused, have a more egalitarian and equal society, were not reckless or anywhere nearthe level of arrogance of the invasion period night elves, have their philosophy tied to the light, not Elune, these are all significant differences. If you observe Suramar in 7.0, which is a snapshot of kaldorei society around the time of the first invasion, you see their are clearly elites, and lowborne - the elites are conceited in ways that make the high elves look sensible, and they treat their "lowborne" with such contempt too.. in high elf society - they were all highborne - think of it more like the settlers in America, everyone was equal even though you would have leader/ruler and a royal family - they were a much fairer and nobler society than the invasion period night elves.


    People mistakenly presume that oh..blood elves have arcane, nightborne / highborne have arcane - so they are the same... completely ignoring how different the cultures are even though they have similarities. high elves come from highborne culture, but they aimed to do something better.. aimed to do better than what the highborne became around the time of the first invasion, .. they didn't return to the arcane combined with nature love and Elune.. the pre-addiction night elves had.. they forged a new path, one in the day, with the Light, and free practice of all magic with a lot of responsibility to avoid summoning the legion.. it was not the same society, nor culture, but arcane craft is pretty much the same... the craft knowledge was different. High elf knowledge was no where near as advanced as what the night elves had achieved prior to the sundering, and they performed differently too.

    their forestry was not similar ot Azshara, quel'thlaas was similar to Kailmdor, that's why they chose it, and they kept it in eternal sptring, which is an example of their love for nature, they don't hate nature.. all the things and inner characteristics of the night elves carry over to the high elves, but less intently. Their arcane connection is not as naturally strong - (even though their society continued using the arcane unlike the long vigil society, but its arcane use was no where near as much as the shen'dralar or nightborne night elven groups), same with their nature connection... I think this is intentional.. remember, night elves are released to be the original elves, so all the elven qualities are stronger in them, the high elves are closer to humans, more humanised. The night elves are the original elves..therefore all the elven characteristics are more pronounced in them. it has nothing to do with how good they make use of htem - that is what their plot determines (e.g. the long vigil group don't make use of the arcane for spells at all, despite their deeper connection, stronger talent and power source)

    As I said, druidism isn't as important as you think. Also, isn't it racist to exclude Thalassians because of their skin color?
    Yes it is.. but you have to remember I am not excluding them. In fact if you read what I say through, you should see that I am showing that they have similar characteristics, just not the same.. night elves have the stronger base.. high elves have similar things but in a different light - sunlight instead of moonlight.

    They are both elves, therefore their similarities are far greater than their differences.. they literally have thes ame things but differnet shades of it. When you look at it, you see they are completely different to each other.. (what I mean is the shades are different.. one is day, the other night etc...in other owrds, when looking at how they are differnet we see they are very different, but we cannot forget that they are very similar.

    I think this is why blizzard put the day eelves in one faction and the ngiht elves in another.
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2019-06-15 at 02:16 PM.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    I suspect the priestesses of Elune have a deep connection to the arcane blizzard hasn't fleshed out yet. In blizzards lore, Elune is one of the first things they discerned from peering into the well.. it was their fascination with her through the well that led to more studying. although not directly stated, if you read between the lines, it is the the priesthood that invents magecraft. Magecraft would have been those who focused purley on the practical and physical applications of utilising the arcane energy and developing that. Which must mean a measure of that has always been a part of the priesthood, and they would have knowledge and secrets of it - their focus was the philosophical and moral implications of the goddess of the Well. The arcane boosts health, life expectancy, enhances growth (stature), empowers strength - and we know mages who come from the elves use the arcane for food conjuring, some of the arcane specialists can restore health via evocation - all this implies that this priesthood probably learnt how to do things with the arcane no one else knows. Remember the high elves who teach the humans arcane magic do so from a state of having lost most of the knowledge from the kaldorei empire, and the priesthood of Elune doesn't go with them, so none of its secrets go with them as they reject Elune - meaning that we really don't know the extent of the arcane to which the priesthood nows and how.. they may be using the arcafne in totally different ways.. We already know that night elves when they cast certain spells like Moonfire, Starfall are drawing arcane energy from the very stars.. something we don't see blood elves do or high elves, but we see night elves and nightborne.


    The biggest evidence is how the priesthood wield arcane energy abilities.. Tyrande and starfall, and you see it time and time again, End time instance, ritual of the darkmoon, night elven priesthood of Elune has a connection tot he arcane.
    I could imagine them connecting magic and religion in one, just like ancient Egyptians did with science and religion. They are even portrayed as keepers of knowledge, as we can see from Cathedral of the Eternal Night. However, we don't know whether they carried on that role after War of the Ancients. Especially as Tyrande's generation was more devout and less scholarly because Dejahna did all she could to keep only the most faithful.

    As for moon magic being arcane, we don't know whether is it game mechanic or canon lore. Blizzard really doesn't like to speak about Elune.

    I'm not sure the nightborne have forgotten to sleep at day, they've been in perpetual night, and they are night elven, the day would be even more annoying for them.. and when the shield goes down, they are delighted to see the stars once more. In the city you see a lot of mimicking of starlight in tree boughs and other places -- very much still night elven at their core.. look at all the shrine's to Elune too in the city, that haven't changed at all, they are well tended, with offerings on them from the people -- this happens in the commons section - you don't see any of that in the elite section. Remember Suramar was the capital of the priesthood of Elune, but they all followed tyrande and the resistance in the march towards Zin'Azshari.
    What shrines? I had a short walk through Suramar to check this one and I found only shrine. It was messy and had bone sacrifices. I am not sure if it wasn't made for demons instead. I could imagine citisens sacrificing animals to convince demons not to kill them.

    Unless you want to speak about the statues. I am sure they depict the aristocracy and greatest of magi.

    Corection, magic addiction is in every group aside from the Long vigil night elves...you must not forget that they are not the only night elven group, and addiction was very much a part of the shen'dralar and nightborne till recently they've overcome (shen'dralar) or being cured (nightborne)
    In Warcraft 3, they needed moonwells, so it is possible that they didn't feel addiction because of them.

    Eventually though, when recklessness and arrogance replaced the typical night elf nobility and responsibility, then people started noticing. We know Malfurion noticed, we also know other highborne and citizens noticed too. The Valewalkers were formed to solve the problem and hopefully save the Queen and highborne caste in time to come to their senses, but they didn't manage to in time.
    No. Valewalkers were formed long before War of the Ancients. They created Arcan'dor when the first elves started to research arcane magic, so something around 4000 years before Malfurion. It is possible that they were a bit troll-like.

    This is why the high elves had a mild form of addiction, constantly suffused with the sunwell, while they never got reckless like the invasion period night elves, an addiction did occur which they didn't bother to balance with nature or live in a balanced way that would counteract it. But their addiction is different, maybe because of their change..? Remember the night elf is naturally arcane attuned in his natural state, perhaps in changing from night elf to high elf, some of that ability to process or contain the arcane was lost, requiring something extra from high elves like the divine to stave off their addiction.
    High elves have never needed divine. First Sunwell was purely arcane so they basically lived like Highborne but on lesser scale. It is common mistake that high elves are light elves. They are going to be them now, as Velen poisoned the Sunwell with naaru essence. And now blood elves aren't even able to research the Void. Remember that they had around 7000 years of arcane research more than Darnassians, so it is quite possible that they became more arcane than them, especially as they became more similar in appearance to titanforged races.

    We have been given the explanation and solution for night elf addiction, how it works, how to prevent it, and how to cure it. nature balances the arcane. Harmony is the key to full living. This might be a universal principle, but for night elves it works, for high elves and humans we don't know. Humans don't have addiction issues, but it is theorised they would do if exposed enough. but we know from the high elves, the light can balance this out. The draenei don't get addicted, but the light is a part of all of them, so maybe htat is their balance. whereas for night elves it is done so in nature.
    Draenei are also more experienced. It is quite possible that over 25000+ years they developed techiques that prevent addiction. Also, they are much more muscular so maybe physical culture is the key. However, the Light is good explanation too.

    As for humans, they are arcane in nature. They come from titanforged bloodline, just like the orcs and dwarves so they are basically arcane beings. Elf is elemental/physical being that ascended through arcane magic. Humans and gnomes are arcane beings twisted by the Void. Humans have much more potential in arcane, but they lack knowledge, experience and intelligence of elves. Pity Blizzard forgets about that fact in moments like Thalyssra vs Jaina encounter.
    They carry motifs over from the night elf era, no doubt, and it's more than magecraft titles, we can expect similar orders amongst the highborne and nightborne - this is where the blood elves get it from - doesn't mean their culture or way of practice is the same.. people look and go hey, you have cities, we have cities..therefore we are are the same.. no. Similarities yes, but the same? no. The fact that the high elves are sun focused, day focused, have a more egalitarian and equal society, were not reckless or anywhere nearthe level of arrogance of the invasion period night elves, have their philosophy tied to the light, not Elune, these are all significant differences. If you observe Suramar in 7.0, which is a snapshot of kaldorei society around the time of the first invasion, you see their are clearly elites, and lowborne - the elites are conceited in ways that make the high elves look sensible, and they treat their "lowborne" with such contempt too.. in high elf society - they were all highborne - think of it more like the settlers in America, everyone was equal even though you would have leader/ruler and a royal family - they were a much fairer and nobler society than the invasion period night elves.
    Different political structures but both derivative of the original. Blood elves are all Highborne so they respect eachother. Nightborne consist of two states, so they are divided. This comes from feudal structure of Kaldorei empire. Was there any interaction between lowborne of Suramar and blood elves? I wonder if they would treat themself as equal.
    People mistakenly presume that oh..blood elves have arcane, nightborne / highborne have arcane - so they are the same... completely ignoring how different the cultures are even though they have similarities. high elves come from highborne culture, but they aimed to do something better.. aimed to do better than what the highborne became around the time of the first invasion, .. they didn't return to the arcane combined with nature love and Elune.. the pre-addiction night elves had.. they forged a new path, one in the day, with the Light, and free practice of all magic with a lot of responsibility to avoid summoning the legion.
    As I said, all arcane-using groups abandoned Elune. And Light isn't main religion of high elves. They had priests, or mage-priests as stated in Warcraft 3 beta, but they weren't anything as important as Sisterhood of Elune for Kaldorei. Most of that society was atheistic/agnostic.

    Remember the high elves who teach the humans arcane magic do so from a state of having lost most of the knowledge from the kaldorei empire, and the priesthood of Elune doesn't go with them, so none of its secrets go with them as they reject Elune - meaning that we really don't know the extent of the arcane to which the priesthood nows and how

    High elf knowledge was no where near as advanced as what the night elves had achieved prior to the sundering, and they performed differently too..
    Was it ever stated that they lost so much knowledge?

    Their arcane connection is not as naturally strong - (even though their society continued using the arcane unlike the long vigil society, but its arcane use was no where near as much as the shen'dralar or nightborne night elven groups), same with their nature connection... I think this is intentional.. remember, night elves are released to be the original elves, so all the elven qualities are stronger in them, the high elves are closer to humans, more humanised. The night elves are the original elves..therefore all the elven characteristics are more pronounced in them. it has nothing to do with how good they make use of htem - that is what their plot determines (e.g. the long vigil group don't make use of the arcane for spells at all, despite their deeper connection, stronger talent and power source)
    I totally disagree. There is no proof that high elves have weaker connection to the Arcane. In fact, it should be stronger as they used magic for much longer. Moreover, they used it more often even before the Sundering. Being more human also means being more arcane. Everything points at them having a bit greater arcane power than lowborn Darnassians.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread
    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gloriandus View Post
    It seems obvious (to me) that they're clearing out the major pieces and players of the old lore. Azshara is an Argus patch, we'll kill N'Zoth at the end of BfA.

    Kael'thas / Illidan
    Lich King
    Deathwing
    Gul’dan / Kil’jaeden
    Burning Legion / Sargeras
    Azshara / N’Zoth

    Can the Void Lords fill the "ultimate villain" hole left behind? Who knows, but with the way the game story writing has been going, I'm not giddy, but rather taciturn.
    No because there is no time to built them up to even care.. I mean thr void lords always seemed like something made up out of thin air. We dont kbow anything about them or how they look.. and honestly I dont even care.
    The bosses we had in the past are bosses people knew who they are and have a connection with them.
    If we just have to care about these beings afther nzoth it wouldnt feel like a real threat and there is no one who realy cares. Azshara is wasted like all the other besides gul dan. Hes built uo was good.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    I totally disagree. There is no proof that high elves have weaker connection to the Arcane. In fact, it should be stronger as they used magic for much longer. Moreover, they used it more often even before the Sundering. Being more human also means being more arcane. Everything points at them having a bit greater arcane power than lowborn Darnassians.
    Saying the common night elf has more arcane connection than someone of pure highborne descent ,a caste that was bred to increase their arcane affinity is utterly nonsensical, but then again Raven tends to make the average night elf out to be far more special than they are.

  5. #45
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
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    I can see her coming back to become world-renown doujin author focusing on tentacles. Thats one way to spread old god propaganda.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    No because there is no time to built them up to even care.. I mean thr void lords always seemed like something made up out of thin air. We dont kbow anything about them or how they look.. and honestly I dont even care.
    The bosses we had in the past are bosses people knew who they are and have a connection with them.
    If we just have to care about these beings afther nzoth it wouldnt feel like a real threat and there is no one who realy cares. Azshara is wasted like all the other besides gul dan. Hes built uo was good.
    Yes. Gul'dan had really great build-up. The problem is that he took all of Kil'jaeden's spotlight.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread
    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    I can see her coming back to become world-renown doujin author focusing on tentacles. Thats one way to spread old god propaganda.
    Japanese version of the steamy romance books? I can see a huge success with certain races.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varitok View Post
    No, she is my waifu. Stop posting and delete this thread immediately.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophenia View Post
    Voted Baine because... Well, Baine. Total nonsensical character, looks like World War II Italy, nobody really understands what role he's supposed to fill, not even himself

  8. #48
    Lich King, Illidan, Garrosh... all of them had a huge backstory and we all were excited to beat them just for the sake of story. And all of them were not even close to the stregth of Azshara. Even Deathwing was weaker according to lore. We are fighting nagas & co. since ... So finishing her story like they intend is really weak and I really hope they do something more with her...

  9. #49
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxrokur View Post
    Japanese version of the steamy romance books? I can see a huge success with certain races.
    "How can old gold worship be wrong if it feels so right ?"

  10. #50
    Id say, Find a way to Un-curse all the Naga but keeping the Fishlike features

    Also Azshara getting a boot to the face from Sylvanas while she says "the truth is, the game was rigged from the start"
    then Ahoy, World of Warcraft: New Azeroth, which you play as an amnesiac Azshara, as she walks through a faction divided Azeroth fighting for the last resources on it, some of your partners are a hot redheaded Nelf warrior who is an Alliance sympathizer named Rose of Ashenvale Cassidy, An Old Orc Veteran who misses Thrall's horde, and a robochicken named CLUK-E.

    The 1st Patch will be an long forgotten zone in the plaguelands ruled by a former and deranged paladin searching for an old Scourge experiment.
    The 2nd One an isolated valley in the Barrens led by the "Burned King
    The 3rd Patch will be on a Lost Titan Facility led by PTSD Titan constructs
    And the Last one will take you to the ruins of Darkshore and Teldrasil, where you will face Punished Tyrande with a cool breathing mask, and 1 or 2 analogies about Bears and Boars that she does all time.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Saying the common night elf has more arcane connection than someone of pure highborne descent ,a caste that was bred to increase their arcane affinity is utterly nonsensical, but then again Raven tends to make the average night elf out to be far more special than they are.
    Well, I have actually thought a lot about some of these things, there is a reason I say them, I can share with you why anyway.


    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    I totally disagree. There is no proof that high elves have weaker connection to the Arcane. In fact, it should be stronger as they used magic for much longer. Moreover, they used it more often even before the Sundering. Being more human also means being more arcane. Everything points at them having a bit greater arcane power than lowborn Darnassians.
    The high elves that continue using the arcane will be more adept at it than a night elf that stopped using it or never used it, they won't be though than a 10,000 year old shen'dralar highborne, Moonguard or nightborne.


    This is not what I mean by connection though. The original elf, the night elf, is borne from the arcane, enhanced by it to their current form. Those who became high elves were severed from this connection - they take a dip in everything the well enhancements give - this is just how the story goes, like a mini devolution of sorts. They became weaker, more fragile, no longer purple, less long lived and less natural intelligence. They would then go on to create the sunwell, link to it and use it. By using it they will be further enhanced for intellect than night elves who do not (not highborne or nightborne or moonguard, just long vigil night elves), however their natural connection isn't stronger..no tonly are they physically diminished, their power source the Sunwell is a less potent Well compared to the Well of Eternity.

    it is in this sense the high elves have a weaker connection. I think thie idea of the night elves was a more primal, raw elf - all the things that make the elf and elf are power present in them - they are the original, something has happened to the elves (the high elves) that has caused them to not be quite where they used to be, how they use to be. when the night elves are introduced, this is what is primarily different about them - and they are sold as the original (purer) elf if you'd like.


    As for arcane talent, the night elves are highly talented, but the long vigil group didn't make use of its talent or power - they have the scorn of the high elves for refusing to do so because of what they regard as unfounded fears and superstitions - and they would be aware it is exactly those fears that led to them being exiled instead of embraced and asked to lead the elves into a new post sundering era where ALL magic was practiced freely but safely. And you might understand hating night elves even more for robbing them or cutting htem off from effect is piece or part of them..all because of stupid superstition, leading to a degree of weakness that wiped many out in the transition. It is for this reason Thalassians hate long vigil kaldorei i.e. Darnassians far more than the other way round. The nobility of the high elves prevents them from acting out against them irrationally and emotionally, but the sin'dorei rebirth of the blood elves lifts and snubs all such high elven morality, and in that new light, hatred for the kaldorei can be nakd and acted upon.


    So, the evidence is really just following the natural conclusion of what happened in the lore. It is not to say that night leves are better than high elves or any such thing. Just because you're more juiced up at certain things.. doesn't mean you are better. humans are one of the weakest races physically and characteristically yet are outshining everyone, including both Thalassian and Darnassian atm. When you think of what the high elves have achieved given their restrictions and handicap over the night elves, they have every justified reason to look down on them. Look at what Rommath comments when he meets the nightborne in 7.1 - "if we had had such a source of power - the things we could have done - but that is the past, we made our own way" (or something like that). Truth is the Thalassians, with their handicap have achieved more than any group of night elves, the long vigil ones, the shen'dralar or the nightborne. Sure their magic is not as advanced as the shen'dralar or nightborne - but they had to start nearly from scratch again. The Long vigil ones at least had an excuse that they felt they were defending the world and preventing the legion from returning hence why they didn't practice the arcane, but the truth is they did cower in shame and fear too and they were wrong ultimately- the high elves were right that the arcane magic could be hidden from the legion - shen'dralaar, moonguard and nightborne are elven proofs of this.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I think generally the impression is that because the long vigil night elves banned the arcane they are somehow not talented in it any more. That is not the case in the lore at all and wouldn't make sense because the night elves have an arcane essence. No, they'd be most talented at it, naturally able to pick it up - at incredibly speeds and aptitudes (cataclysm proves this - and is what you would expect)… however a few weeks or years old magician, no matter how talented he is would not be as adept as someone who's been using it for much longer than he has, whether high elven or human.

    And when people say night elves, they forget that that term no longer only stands for Long vigil night elves who banned the arcane, using that term without distinction means they are lumping shen'dralar, moonguard, Farondis and in some people's view nightborne in that category too - and such would not be the case either.

    High elves may have had 7,000 years arcane practice head start on darnassians as a civilization, but as individuals, the darnassians have been surrounded and suffused by arcane magic through the Well of Eternity, and Moonwells for near 15,000 years and are the original elves, not devolved, nor diminished and in an enhanced arcane state as their natural balance (unlike the nightborne who's added state was an imbalance they needed to be cured from - which is why they will likely over time revert to night elves or may not ) - as such their potential capacity would be higher. This is my reasoning on it.

    it makes no difference to how we see things, amongst the Kaldorei, only the highborne order is arcane practicing, and has an arcane culture, amongst the high elves and blood elves it's society wide, it makes the arcane more common in high elves, but not necessarily better. The highborne order is amongst night elves specifically hand picked night elves highly talented in the arcnae.. I am talking about the group the shen'dralar are restoring in the present time (not how the caste started with Azshara), this means their arcane talent concentration is much higher amongst this order than it is amongst high elven society or nightborne society where not everyone is an arcane adept nor talented.. the equivalent to the kaldorei highborne would be the blood elves' Magisters or the nightborne Arcanist order - because they will all be mages, gifted with the arcane. And amongst them, I don't think at that level, the slight advantage a kaldorei would have over sin'dorei via genetics, or a shal'dorei over a kaldorei or sin'dorei because of the nightwell changes would make much of a difference, talent can vary enormously.. humans who don't have the same degree of magical affinity as the elves, and gnomes are also quite talented at the arcane, and can easily produce individuals that can match any elf for talent - whether night, high or nightborne, as seen in Jaina and Khadgar -- while greatest natural sorcerors goes to the night elves when you see names like Azshara and Illidan Stormrage, while high elves have Kael'thas, Darth'remar and Anastarian as their famous ones, humans have Jaina and Khadgar, nightborne Thalyssra and Elisande (even though I think of those more as night elves).. I don't count the guardians Aegwyn and Medivh because they have powers bestowed on them by the council of Tirisfal using an ancient highborne magical device that was able to pool their collective power into one individual - and thus the Guardian is not the most powerful because her own natural gift or talent, but because power is bestowed on him, so he doesn't count.

  12. #52
    The Insane Aeula's Avatar
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    I never much cared for her, she came across as quite stupid and gullible in the war of the ancients and all we know about her beyond that is how supposedly powerful she is.

    If they’re not going to do another underwater zone then they should just get rid of her, since that’s the only interesting thing the Naga can bring to the table. Nazjatar is a joke compared to Vashj’ir.

  13. #53
    I think she was done properly as a mid-boss. Everyone has hyped her up for years, but she's never been anything more than just some powerful elf queen who is now leader of the Naga and never once shown how powerful she was, despite the headcanon on these forums.

    End of Expansion bosses tend to be WORLD ENDING level of danger, or in MoPs case, Faction Ending danger. Azshara's never compared to the likes Arthas, Deathwing, Archimonde, SARGERAS... not in threat level or popularity.

    it would the first time a raid boss has come back to be a main character - i.e. an interesting twist - that beats the typical once we kill that's it
    Garrosh? Dude literally set forth motion of events that have led to this(with Kairoz's help). We beat him as the final raid boss no less and he escapes and then throws an entire IronHorde at us that causes another expansion.
    Gul'dan? We might not have fought him personally, but he brought forth the Legion into Draenor, warped/created the final raid and resurrected and aided Mannoroth(like a warlock-necromancer) opened the way for Archy and then got thrown into our world and set loose the Legion on our world and was the main antag of that expansion.

    what iif we don't even kill Azshara in 8.2, but she is our main enemy through 9.x but then in a surpsring turn we fight alongside her in 10.x as more twists about the void come out?


    Currently i'll be frank, I am tired of massive themes, being rush dealt with in one expansion - Cataclysm story and legion story were too big to be told just in this MMo - wrong format/medium and not enough time - they are stories that could have had arunnign theme through
    They've done it twice now, hopefully they'll do it again. And that's have someone escape from the previous expansion and cause the next expansion. I could see Azshara surviving this expansion, infact I can see her defeat in this raid and then disappear for the rest of the expansion, like we think she's done with and we turn our sites on N'zoth for the final raid. But then we get a short story voiced by that dude who could make angels orgasm with his voice about how she washes ashore some island and then sets in motion the next expansion.
    Her being the main villain however, no I can't see that. I can only see her setting in motion the events of the next expansion, but can't see her actually being any more powerful than she's already been.

    But even then I don't see her being the one. I have a few ideas of what's going to happen and Blizzard has already setup a few characters who can "Set in motion" the next expansion. We have Sylvanas and we Xal'atath. I can see Azshara joining one or the other(or both if they're secretly working together) and then throw Helya in there and we have the Trinity of Bitches or Wrath of the Bitches faction xD

    wrong format/medium and not enough time
    Blame the people who cried about events happening outside the game. When we had the books ontop of WoW, Blizzard was pumping out lore left and right, whether it was old lore or even present/parallel lore to what was going on in WoW. Then people whined and bitched that things were happening outside the game and they didn't want that. Blizzard then stopped making books alongside the expansions and only have done ONE since MoP. The problem is, the lore in the game is limited to what the devs in the game can produce. You want a massive Argus? Well a book that went more in-depth of the Argus invasion would have been amazing, but we can't have that.

    imo, Blizzard should release 2-3 books per expansion. A book about the opening events, a book about the mid expansion boss and a book about the final. I'm talking like what all the characters are doing during that time, not just us the nameless adventurers... but I also want things that we are there and forefront for to have an actual canon, instead of it just being nameless adventurers who kill every single thing.

    Secondly, Dealign witht he void next expansion compeltley just seems phony.. we dealing with too many massive cosmic threats, too quickly - you have to build up, so I would say.. spend the next expansion or 2 building up the races, building up the lore, developing it, - use 9.0 with Azshara as its main focus to start introducing new bigger threats down the line.. so we don't have a case of .. all of a sudden there is so me mammoth threat yet again , that's appeared out of no where, and we all of a sudden are super Saiyan enough to destroy it, in the space of a year and half.. yay.
    I agree that the void expansion being the next expansion is too soon(though I thought I said during Legion that "the expansion after next is void!") because they haven't properly built it up in this expansion.
    However, Blizzard is going to need to pull out a massive world end event if they want to keep WoW going.
    We've come to the point that it's become there's a main expansion, then filler, then main, then filler.

    WoD=Filler
    Legion=Main
    BFA=Filler
    ???=Main
    Cataclysm and MoP should have been switched imo. Cata had Main expansion lore, but it's content was that of filler. Where MoP had filler expansion lore, but it's content was that of a main expansion.
    After BFA, especially how none threatening to the world the lore has been, after 2 years, the players need a World Ending threat again. I don't think they're ready for Void, I've changed my "When's it coming!" to expansion(vanilla is 1) 10 or 11(11 being if 10 isn't the final expansion of WoW) so the expansion after the expansion after the next expansion, to keep up with the Odds are main, evens are filler. So that means that expansion 9 being a main expansion, probably will focus on DEATH.

    Also expansions tend to hint at what's coming next in 2 ways. MoP had Orcs as the final enemy and Garrosh. WoD was an Orc expansion created by Garrosh. WoD had demons as the final enemy with Gul'dan. Legion was a Demon expansion created by Gul'dan. Legion changed it up a little. Legion had demons throughout the expansion, but still had void popping up all over and Xal'atath. You can also say it had faction conflict which led to BFA aswell(blame Genn). BFA has faction conflict, Old God minions and Xal'atath again, however the current "hinting at next expansion" seems to be DEATH. The main threat this expansion is Void(OldGods/Minions) however they're hinting at death a whole lot and despite how great the writers think they are(they literally jerked each other off in that interview) they haven't been subtle at all about Arthas with how they spread things all over that are meant to make you think of him(subliminal messages... advertisement for a future expansion).

    Imo, next expansion is DEATH and Arthas is coming back. They've been hinting at like crazy and we have the perfect person to bring us into the expansion, Sylvanas escaping from the Horde and Alliance, pulling a Garrosh/Guldan.
    I think expansion after that will be another filler, possibly remnants of the Legion, ending with the Void Lords taking over the Legion and then expansion after that is full on Void Lords. And that's the end of WoW!

  14. #54
    Scarab Lord 3DTyrant's Avatar
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    I want her to die so people can finally shut up about her. Then again knowing people, they'd moan about how she should've had a bigger role and not have been killed so easily...
    Shath'mag vwyq shu et'agthu, Shath'mag sshk ye! Krz'ek fhn'z agash zz maqdahl or'kaaxth'ma amqa!
    The Black Empire once ruled this pitiful world, and it will do so again! Your pitiful kind will know only despair and sorrow for a hundred thousand millennia to come!
    Avatar drawn by Sir Meo

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    I could imagine them connecting magic and religion in one, just like ancient Egyptians did with science and religion. They are even portrayed as keepers of knowledge, as we can see from Cathedral of the Eternal Night. However, we don't know whether they carried on that role after War of the Ancients. Especially as Tyrande's generation was more devout and less scholarly because Dejahna did all she could to keep only the most faithful.
    it is an interesting point, I would love to know and see more, it is in the priesthood and the arcane practice that I feel the Children of the Stars identity which they are called by originates from, and it is all connected, both the religion thet looks to the moon and the role the stars play and it is no co incidence the magic they draw from them is arcane and all 3 of mages, priests and druids from the nightnelves wield this unique stellar and lunar magic.

    I really wish blizzard would delve into this...the pre sundering civilization had astrology towers, we se a glimpse of far more to the stars via the Star Augur in Augur Nighthold and despite arcane practice being banned for the long vigil period, the Kaldorei do not change their name to the children of the forest (which the Cenarians are) or the children of the moon... even in the absence of the practice of arcane and the shift in focus of the priesthood, these guys defintiely remember who they are, remember everything ...it refocuses you to think and see that the kaldorei are not just defined by the long vigil, but by everything in the pre sundering era too, it is all them, and the core of their identity dis there. The vigil was long, but it was a mission, where everything else, original identity and destiny, arcane practice, civilization was all on paise indefinitely...it never fully defined them.

    Sadly people who just play wc3 and go by the units they see instead of factoring the lore in, or those that level up night elves continuously on WoW not reading the quests but just seeing the visuals of that, wrongly categorise the night elves as only druidic and forested, when there is a lot more the lore clearly points to and shows..no wonder they call them enigmatic, this race has a lot of hidden stuff not always spelled out, but told in text and books. There is more nightnelf lore in novels than in game, yet people feel what they see in classic zones is all there is to night elves and they can ignore what the quest texts and other texts say and fully understand what this race is.

    Legion expansion took a huge leap, showing us details of many things that that been written only in texts of manuals or instructions or briefly seen in game. So surprised by it that many felt all this stuff about night elves was new, even feeling the nightborne were some new blood elf purple elves...because blizzard hadn't shown much of most of the night elf stuff.

    And judging by the priesthood, it is clear there is still much left to show. I really wanted more priesthood lore and some of these mysteries fleshed out in Suramar 7.1 and the broken shore culminating in the CoEM instance and ToS raid which happens at their order's most holy sight, but blizzard switched Tyrandes role to what Vereesa was playing and switched the Order of Elune in 7.2 to give the order halls more involvement rather than find a way to do both.

    So there is still more mystery surrounding them than both nightnelves arcana and druidsm. The only knowledgeable aspect of the priesthood are their sentinel and warden orders. We have no presentation of their pre sundering operations, none of their doctrine or creed. In fact we are limited to the few times we have seen them in action as priests in Wc3 when they call starfall, and in WoW in the limited times Tyrande has cast spells

    As for moon magic being arcane, we don't know whether is it game mechanic or canon lore. Blizzard really doesn't like to speak about Elune.
    dont you think it is curious how we easily accept magic types for everyone else as shown in game as canon, but doubt the night elf prieste? Rather than ask ourselves what the fact that it is arcane telling us.

    It's not like the lore surrounding the priesthood and discovery of Elune is unknown...they were studying the Well and the arcane when they discovered her, the priesthood and arcane culture at its height were intertwined...we confuse banning of arcane practice to stop the Legions return with banning of all things arcane, forgetting the evidence of the arcane energy always being a part of them, and the well at the centre of the Long vigil too even though practising the craft was banned.

    Every priesthood has its unique identity, if they didnt want those spells to be arcane they would have made them something else or changed them..do we not have astral and stellar damage for some balance spells, the fact they are arcane in damage is intentional and means something and we can figure out what and how it fits, rather than assume they made mistakes, when everytime the priesthood cast damage spells its arcane, and half the balance druid spell arsenal is arcane lunar and stellar, and the night elven Moonguard, nighborne and highborne mages are seen using lunar and stellar spells no other mage group uses.

    Rather than assume it's an error or just mechanics, we instead should theorise on it..maybe the priesthood had these spells and never used them during the long vigil, but when the Legion did return, there was no point not using them as the reason for the ban was to prevent a return that has now happened..it would explain why we never see or hear of them using these before the Legions return and why the night epves arent preventing the human and high elven mages from fighting with the arcane. We forget that Moonguard and highborne who sided with them fought the Legion with the arcane, it was the night elves' ,most powerful tool against them, so it makes sense to see arcane spells again, mages allowed and after the war the ban lifts on the arcane practice because it is no longer necessary.

    For all we know the priesthood could have suppressed their arcane knowledge because of the ban, or lost it..theyve only just gotten the Cathedral back and freed ghosts, they can reclaim knowledge lost or maybe they never lost their knowledge.

    Another explanation could bee spells calling down moon and star fires and surges were never part of the ban, because they draw energy from the stars and moon not the Well and not Azeroth, so Azeroth isnt lit up and their function is similar to an animal casting moonfirem it's not based on manipulating the well and as such is okay. Its use may have been limited because of the dangers arcane usage posed, but this is why druids and priests could use those spells during the long vigil. You cant do much with such spells, not like you can with as source like the well, but they are powerful enough for battle, not building cities which requires creating new stuff which is now magecraft.


    What shrines? I had a short walk through Suramar to check this one and I found only shrine. It was messy and had bone sacrifices. I am not sure if it wasn't made for demons instead. I could imagine citisens sacrificing animals to convince demons not to kill them.
    Those snooty I'm so sophisticated elves? I doubt it, but then the things we do for power or to save our lives.

    The Elune shrines are the places with night elf statues with bowls in their hands like you see in the temple of the moon, or just normal night elf females in gowns and the moon symbols are all Elune originating - in line with this races fascination with the night sky Moon and stars. I remember Surmar hasn't changed one bit since the sundering (bar the occasional nightborne statue here or there), so even if Elune order priests had left with their high priestsesses, none of the Statues, symbols, crescent moon stuff is gone, it's all there as it was, and the nightborne are sticklers for tradition, just like you have people who don't do religion today because it means anything real to them, but only because it is tradition and part of their identity is in their traditions. so these shirntes are tthere, but they have flowers oand fuirt section.. here is a picture.



    Unless you want to speak about the statues. I am sure they depict the aristocracy and greatest of magi.
    Some of them do, I figure that some are noble guards (Moonguard who become Duskguard) others are nobles, some are priestesses.


    What makes you think they are all magi and not priests? the great roped statue are Moonguard and Highborne, the female ones with more than a little loving care, and offerigns Remembers Suramar was the capital of the priesthood, and the city is unchanged, as is the culture they had when the priesthood left to fight Azshara, you'd have people who believe in Elune and follow the traditions of offerings etc, even though the nightwell becomes their sole source once cut off form the world. This is Kaldorei empire Suramar because blizzard wanted to show us what a pristine night elven city looked in its full glory after all the ruins we've been teased with.

    They took all the lore of Suramar they had given, I can imagine they sat down with the artists and brainstormed giving them a creative idea on what to represents, the artists then go ahead and design the stuff with what it is to portray. Fly around and look at the various types of statues, You will see those of highborne, Moonguard and their successors Duskguard attire.


    In Warcraft 3, they needed moonwells, so it is possible that they didn't feel addiction because of them.
    It is possible, true. My theory though is that the connection to nature and the Emerald dream via Nordrassil and Ysera's blessing was the correctional influence needed. Moonwells would have provided soothing because they are arcane energy, so those in need of arcane would find being near them soothing, but their waters are purified via prayers from this mysterious Priesthood .. and we know the waters also heal magical maladies - the arcane is used ina very positive way here.. but then we know the arcane boosts life,a nd it doesn't take a genius to connect that a priesthood that uwas founded on the arcane might actually have ways of making it and its properties more effective for healing Especially a priesthood that has been around the arcane for 15,000 years.


    No. Valewalkers were formed long before War of the Ancients. They created Arcan'dor when the first elves started to research arcane magic, so something around 4000 years before Malfurion. It is possible that they were a bit troll-like.
    4,000 ? No, what makes you say that? we know highborne and primitive druids together made upt the order, and that it was to specifically tackle and solve hteproblem of addiction.. highbrone came further down the line after Azshara was Queen, and addiction can makmuch later, in the centuries leading up to the first invasion. The valewalker order I would place more around the time of the first invasion. but we don't know.


    High elves have never needed divine. First Sunwell was purely arcane so they basically lived like Highborne but on lesser scale. It is common mistake that high elves are light elves. They are going to be them now, as Velen poisoned the Sunwell with naaru essence. And now blood elves aren't even able to research the Void. Remember that they had around 7000 years of arcane research more than Darnassians, so it is quite possible that they became more arcane than them, especially as they became more similar in appearance to titanforged races.
    I meant the Naaru making the sunwell divine and arcane when I said requiring something like the divine to stave off their addiction. We are told that the divine elements of the sunwell is what is counteracting or negating the addictive elements from the arcnae side of the sunwell. This might tie in well with the blessings the Elune priesthood does to arcane waters in the moonwells, Id on't know. rough guess. And you are right about the rest though.. it is a common mistake to think high elves are night elves... but the 7,000 years of arcnae research I don't think make the high elves more arcane than the darnassians… I think the reason the highe lves get addicted by suffusion so easily over time is because the high elven form devolved and severed from the Well of Eternity, is not as able to process or cope with arcane energy like they were use to as nighte lves.

    Whereas the darnassian night elves, though they stopped practising the arcane, were suffused constantly by it as they had their well, they were connected to and the moonwells, but they've been connected to the well since creation, they are born from it, suffusuin didn't make night elves addicted, it was reckless use. The high elves adamant they could learn from the mistake of invasion period highborne culture, and insistent that ways could be found to use the arcane from source without lighting up in the twisting nether - proceed to create exactly that culture. They heavily regulated their use of arcane magic using it with reverence and fear.. created the Ban'dinoriel around Quel'thalas masking the energy signature of their sunwell and all their magical activity within quel'thalas - and it worked. However the lore tells us they were careful with magic, and we understand why in the context of the legion and what caused them to be exiled. So much so that they are astounded at how quick the humans pick up the arcane and are progressing with it - or rather how freely, which suggests the high elves had millennia of caution and warnings of the legion drummed into them, that they didn't pass on to the humans who then go about pracitciing in secret behind their teachers' back.. I reckon the reason the highe lves didn't pick up on this is because they assumed the humans like younger versions of themselves, and they always listened to their teachers' warnings, nort realising humans curiosity would get the better off them, and ofc, if you don't tell them aboutut the demons, theyw on't understand why you are being so cautious.. why take 3 steps when you can do it inin one huge step..which might be a bit reckless but will get you to the result much quicker.. humans porblably did stuff like that in secret, practising behind their teachers back and ofc showin gfast improvments while their tecahers didn't realize they weren't being obedient totally.


    It's a cultural difference, human children are well use to defying their teachers, and as soon as you say "don't" or "can't" you have htem interested ready to challenge you. Elven children in that annoying elven perfection off course obey perfectly and listen much better.. sure their are exceptions occsaionslly, but the high elves took magic practice seriously, however they didn't pass on the reasons why, so when demons start coming to Azeroth again, they have to form a secret council of Tirisfal so as not to scare the population and regulate magic in secret to thwart more demonic incursions.


    However I feel Suffusion shouldn't have gotten them addicted, and if you notice, the high elven addiction is different to the night elves/nightborne too. I think their devolution just made htem less capable to cope with the same amount of arcane exposure that would not have been a problem in their original night elven forms, and since the change ot high leves didn't change their memories or feelings, they likely felt to handle arcane magic at the same levels as before not realising their changed bodies just can't cope as well - hence addiction.


    It doesn't mean that they couldn't practice arcane just as well or hone their skills.. they would be more adept than Darnassians who haven't used it in 10,000 years as Azshara questlines show ( the night elven mages you fight in Azshara are mages that have aonly been a few weeks in training, the novice ones are brand new night leves learning the arcane for the first time, but the lore keepers like Anabel and the ones who make the portal, they are returned daranssian highborne - highborne who didn't leave with DArth'remar, (probably cos they weren't from the Zin'azsahari palace group) but stayed with the rest of the night elves finagreeing fully with the ban and deciding it was too much of a risk to dabble with the arcane. The lore tells us these also returned to being highborne once the ban on arcane and the highborne was lifted, and the shen'dralar started recruiting..they got new students and very old students who would need their skills updating.. this is why those old students were using constructs that could be exploited or old style portals that had weaknesses,.. they'd only been a few weeks in training, with likely still much to update on, but they could teach some of the brand new ones the basics while themselves catching up. Notice how some of the lore keepers cast druid spells and arcane, some of them would have been some of the moonguard who switched to druidsm, switching back to the arcane.

    Anyway..That's my theory on it. The high elves get distorted into Wretched when they take too much arcane energy, cos they can't take on the same capacity as they could as night elves, they have devolved slightly remember, lost osme of their physical capability.. ngiht elf addiction in th enightborne is different, they devolve when they don't have any arcane - like the opposite .. because ht natural state is with arcane, except the nightborne took it way too far --feeding ont he thing like food --totally out of balance, it was bound to distort them.


    Draenei are also more experienced. It is quite possible that over 25000+ years they developed techiques that prevent addiction. Also, they are much more muscular so maybe physical culture is the key. However, the Light is good explanation too.
    That's an interesting possibility too, I hadn't thought that phsycial girth helps, it could be a genetic thing, or they were just not as fascinated to the arcane as the night elves were, so didn't rush quite as much as Azshara did. They also didn't have anything like the WEll of Eternity, so that arcane core in the night elves isn't there. In draenei lore, wasn't it the Naaru, that gave them the 7 atamal crystals that elevated them in wisdom and understanding/ so they would have investigated the arcane with less fervour and devotion and being more balanced, possibly avoiding that pitfall. While the night elves had Cenarius teachings and pursuit of nature in tandem with the arcane balancing htem out until they ditched it because their Queen was just doing all these amazing wonders with it that just made everything else seemingly pale in comparison, and completely unaware at that time that addiction could be a thing for their oh so perfect and flawless approach and knowledge (i.e. pride) they continued until they did get addicted. fortunately for them, not all of them pushed as hard and as recklessesly as the palace lot did, and as uch were able to notice the warning signs and kickstart groups like the Valewalkers. IU guess for a night elf to get addicted, they must have been seriously abusing /over using the arcnae. When you read WotA - and how they were working over those portals, that was level of intensity.. it is insane, off course it is out of balance and you'd get addicted. I don't know if we would know the full reason of what drew Azsahra to such fervour -- iknow she felt their were more secrets to discover, chronicles tells us more, and you can get obsessed with a thing if you're not too careful... her arrogance probably compounded her problem, thinking she was infallible.. didn't she laugh at those who tried to warn her of addiction? Probably glamoured them into bleiveing she was above and beyond such failings.


    As for humans, they are arcane in nature. They come from titanforged bloodline, just like the orcs and dwarves so they are basically arcane beings. Elf is elemental/physical being that ascended through arcane magic. Humans and gnomes are arcane beings twisted by the Void. Humans have much more potential in arcane, but they lack knowledge, experience and intelligence of elves. Pity Blizzard forgets about that fact in moments like Thalyssra vs Jaina encounter.
    humans aren't titans though, their blood isn't arcane power or energy.. they are made by the titans using the Forges of origination.. the spark in them like lal living beings is the light.. they would have equal capacity for all types of magic.. or at least that is how I see it.

    Arcane talent was a very rare thing, remember the elves had it, but the trolls hadn't achieved anwyehre near as much as the elves had with the arcane.. for the trolls arcane was just as much as any other type of magic .. the leves took it some new llevel with their understanding and obsession with it. So when humans come along and prove to be quite talented at learning from having seemingly no arcane tradition in their species, the elves are impressesed. Now we know why, because humans evolve or rather devolve from Vrykul who in stone form are the valarjar armies used to fight the black empire, built for war and battle, and so equipped with the skills they need - probably why they are so damn overpowered even though they are stated as being the "average" d
    Different political structures but both derivative of the original. Blood elves are all Highborne so they respect eachother. Nightborne consist of two states, so they are divided. This comes from feudal structure of Kaldorei empire. Was there any interaction between lowborne of Suramar and blood elves? I wonder if they would treat themself as equal.
    Well remember, blood elves and highe lves are all derived from night elves.. arcane talent carries over (even if a little diminished) so does the agility and nimbleness, the love of forestry ..they all carry over. when the high elves set up a new culture, even though its structures are different and its philosophy changed, it would be a derivative of the original night elven pre sundering arcane highborne led culture they'd have known inside out and helped administer. Just as their Farstrider forestry experts and rangers would be derived from the night elven orginal sentinels and huntresses - even though again, things have changed.


    People tend to forget that the high elves are connected to the kaldorei - not just the highborne side because of arcane practice, and the akdlorei also have highborne amongst htem now, and during the long vigil had arcnae using kaldorei groups that never banned the arcnae or stopped practising.

    As for nightborne, you pose an interesting question.. would the blood elves regard nightobnre lowbornne as equal? I suspect they would, and this would surprise nightborne highborne. Because nightborne society, is quite segregated, like night elven societies have bene since a very long time. however the high elves, started something new, all highborne, how would you operate their? I guess the shen'dralar would understand as they were an all highborne society too. But an extra complication is added by the recent activities.. Thalyssra's nightfallen rebellion are a new mindest, very similar to the kaldorei resistance 10,000 yaers ago that also came from Suramar, and the resistnace is what forms the long vigil group and a society where everyone is equal..

    however not all nightborne are nightfallen rebellion, and the war lsated a few years, not 200 years like the WotA (original edition, I think the Krasus time travel changed that time frame much faster), not only that Suramar was not destroyed or sacked completely like the kaldorei empire was -so whereas the kaldorei resistance had to start from scratch with everything destroyed and had to ban the use of arcane magic to avoid the legion returning - thus forcing them into this new arcane practice free existence without civilization and in isolation, the nightfallen resistance members don't have to do any of that.

    It doesn't mean their society hasn't had a revolution , it has, but there would still be a lot of attitudes and elements and thinking that is kaldorei invasion period pre-sundering era based way of thinking and behaving,, and those of that mindset would definitely look down on lowborne, but then, given how remarkable non-night elves have shown to be, and night elves who have saved thee world twice, it might have a humbling effect on them, they now look like cowards and weaklings in comparison to their kaldorei counterparts who went without the arcane for 10k years and pulled off a Legion victory twice with far less arcane power than the nightborne have..

    So this may cause interesting developments.

    Was it ever stated that they lost so much knowledge?
    Constantly, and it is shown. Most recently the Reliquary head in Azsuna tells you how they have lost most of the knowledge of the highborne, and that his group is going to get as much arcane knowledge back as he can by investigating the ruins, the same goes when he gives you quests in Suramar.


    THe long vigil elves (darnassians and those who would become Thalassians) lost all their cities (they never ventured past Ashenvale, except for the war of the shifting sands where they didn't go near Dire maul, so thought Eldre'thalas lost, and Surmar too, because of the strange shield and most of the city at the bottom of the ocean anyway.


    They also lived without arcane magic for 3,000 years before they tried that coup and got expelled, vast amounts of knowledge would be lost from individuals who were experts in their fields, and the destroyed cities who would have libraries and arcane repositories with much of the knowledge.. they would also lack the number of people needed to relearn all that knowledge and specialise in all those many fields.. Think of it practically. Like our world today, cities all of the worlds, all sorts of prodcuts, devices, inventions, methods, with all sorts of companies and inventors, patents etc, every company would have those who psecialise in one aspect or another prdoducing all kinds of things, if the world had an pocalyptic armaggeddon like the war of the ancients with all the cities destroyed, that means all the computres (arcane repositories) and constructs lost, and the people also with the knowledge dead, except a few.. and veen if you had acity that survived in secret, it would have far much more knowledge than their would be population to take up the many fields of study and then start doing all sorts of things with it..

    Even the nightborn and shen'dralar though they have their knowledge in their city or their head,s it would take generations before they are numerous and widespread enough to apply their lost knowledge.. this is why no one else has reached the unprecedented level of advancement the night elf empire reached, and until peace and stability and growth returns to azeroth or at least one of those elven groups, we won't see it. it is likely why quel'thalas still hadn't matched pre-sundering Kalimdor by the time of WC3, it was far smaller, contained only to one area, far smaller population, so much knowledge still lost and even if found, not enough population to utlise it like a global and unified empire had.. where children were learning spells alongside reading and writing (just like you see in Suramar.. that is pre-sundering night elf empire around the invasion period.).
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2019-06-16 at 04:42 PM.

  16. #56
    Scarab Lord Boricha's Avatar
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    She deserved her own Lich King-esque expansion, but now that Nazjatar is being thrown away as a patch island I don't think they could reasonably do that.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by City Pop View Post
    She deserved her own Lich King-esque expansion, but now that Nazjatar is being thrown away as a patch island I don't think they could reasonably do that.
    My three steps of enjoying Blizzcon 2017:

    1. Faction war? Boring.

    2. At least we finally get Azshara.

    3. Wait, they are going to waste her in one patch!
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread
    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3DTyrant View Post
    I want her to die so people can finally shut up about her. Then again knowing people, they'd moan about how she should've had a bigger role and not have been killed so easily...
    Just like this thread or any thread about her.
    I believe this is the case as well.. why waste her.. not like we have mich villains left anymore.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    Just like this thread or any thread about her.
    I believe this is the case as well.. why waste her.. not like we have mich villains left anymore.
    Well if anything they will start using the villain bat again, Bwonsamdi, Eyir, Bolvar, Odyn, Jaina and some corrupted random leader(Light vult Turalyon or void mad Alleria) all of them are good candidates for villains to fight in raids if blizzard runs out of ideas.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varitok View Post
    No, she is my waifu. Stop posting and delete this thread immediately.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophenia View Post
    Voted Baine because... Well, Baine. Total nonsensical character, looks like World War II Italy, nobody really understands what role he's supposed to fill, not even himself

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    This is not what I mean by connection though. The original elf, the night elf, is borne from the arcane, enhanced by it to their current form. Those who became high elves were severed from this connection - they take a dip in everything the well enhancements give - this is just how the story goes, like a mini devolution of sorts. They became weaker, more fragile, no longer purple, less long lived and less natural intelligence.
    I wouldn't say they mentally devolved. It all happened during one lifespan.
    They would then go on to create the sunwell, link to it and use it. By using it they will be further enhanced for intellect than night elves who do not (not highborne or nightborne or moonguard, just long vigil night elves), however their natural connection isn't stronger..no tonly are they physically diminished, their power source the Sunwell is a less potent Well compared to the Well of Eternity.
    Keep in mind that Nightwell and Immol'thar aren't as powerful as Well of Eternity either.

    Sure their magic is not as advanced as the shen'dralar or nightborne - but they had to start nearly from scratch again.
    Is there any proof that they lost nearly all arcane knowledge? Many of them studied arcane before the War of the Ancients.
    I think generally the impression is that because the long vigil night elves banned the arcane they are somehow not talented in it any more. That is not the case in the lore at all and wouldn't make sense because the night elves have an arcane essence. No, they'd be most talented at it, naturally able to pick it up - at incredibly speeds and aptitudes (cataclysm proves this - and is what you would expect)… however a few weeks or years old magician, no matter how talented he is would not be as adept as someone who's been using it for much longer than he has, whether high elven or human.
    Cataclysm doesn't prove that night elves have great arcane talent. Their magic isn't very effective.
    And when people say night elves, they forget that that term no longer only stands for Long vigil night elves who banned the arcane, using that term without distinction means they are lumping shen'dralar, moonguard, Farondis and in some people's view nightborne in that category too - and such would not be the case either.
    These elves are indeed talented but keep in mind that only Shen'dralar are part of Darnassian society.
    High elves may have had 7,000 years arcane practice head start on darnassians as a civilization, but as individuals, the darnassians have been surrounded and suffused by arcane magic through the Well of Eternity, and Moonwells for near 15,000 years and are the original elves, not devolved, nor diminished and in an enhanced arcane state as their natural balance (unlike the nightborne who's added state was an imbalance they needed to be cured from - which is why they will likely over time revert to night elves or may not ) - as such their potential capacity would be higher. This is my reasoning on it.
    First of all, blood elves have 15000 years of arcane practice. Yet again you forget that high elves were once a part of Kaldorei empire. Moreover, as the Highborne, they had more exposure to the Well of Eternity than mere commoners who are main group of Darnassian society.

    Then, moonwells are weaker than the Sunwell and Well of Eternity. Night elves aren't mainly sustained by moonwell energies, but blessings of the Dragon Aspects, from which only longevity is arcane based.

    As for nightborne, it is very unlikely for them to revert to night elves. Arcan'dor granted them balanced form, which is a bit more arcane than original kaldorei.
    it makes no difference to how we see things, amongst the Kaldorei, only the highborne order is arcane practicing, and has an arcane culture, amongst the high elves and blood elves it's society wide, it makes the arcane more common in high elves, but not necessarily better. The highborne order is amongst night elves specifically hand picked night elves highly talented in the arcnae.. I am talking about the group the shen'dralar are restoring in the present time (not how the caste started with Azshara), this means their arcane talent concentration is much higher amongst this order than it is amongst high elven society or nightborne society where not everyone is an arcane adept nor talented.. the equivalent to the kaldorei highborne would be the blood elves' Magisters or the nightborne Arcanist order - because they will all be mages, gifted with the arcane.
    Agreed but keep in mind that all highborne have arcane in genes. They became highborne because of arcane talent. Moreover, as we know from real life, nobles are not used do dilute their blood with commoners so it is quite a safe guess that blood elves could have great talent aswell.
    And amongst them, I don't think at that level, the slight advantage a kaldorei would have over sin'dorei via genetics, or a shal'dorei over a kaldorei or sin'dorei because of the nightwell changes would make much of a difference, talent can vary enormously.. humans who don't have the same degree of magical affinity as the elves, and gnomes are also quite talented at the arcane, and can easily produce individuals that can match any elf for talent - whether night, high or nightborne, as seen in Jaina and Khadgar -- while greatest natural sorcerors goes to the night elves when you see names like Azshara and Illidan Stormrage, while high elves have Kael'thas, Darth'remar and Anastarian as their famous ones, humans have Jaina and Khadgar, nightborne Thalyssra and Elisande (even though I think of those more as night elves).. I don't count the guardians Aegwyn and Medivh because they have powers bestowed on them by the council of Tirisfal using an ancient highborne magical device that was able to pool their collective power into one individual - and thus the Guardian is not the most powerful because her own natural gift or talent, but because power is bestowed on him, so he doesn't count.
    As I said, blood elves rather have greater arcane genes than lowborne from Darnassus.

    Then, again, humans, gnomes and even orcs have much greater affinity to arcane than any elf. They lack knowledge and arcane culture but their potential is much greater. They are born from arcane and arcane magic is their birthright. I know it is sad that humans have their "human potential" but I think it would be nice development for dwarves if they embraced their titanic bloodline and in time reverted curse of flesh, creating their own arcane empire similar to that of mogu.

    Guardians are naturally powerful aswell. You see, guardian candidate ought to have natural capacity to contain high amounts of magic. Khadgar, Medivh and Aegwynn are examples of such mage. If some other mage tries to become guardian, he can't control such power and eventually dies of energy he can't contain. That's why Spearheads of Tirisfal didn't really work.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread
    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

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