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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by A Chozo View Post
    I mean, replace "the entire raid" with "the overwhelming majority of players" and you have WoW playerbase's reaction to Mythic Raiding as a whole.

    In this case, it just hit your threshold.

    But it's by design. It's not overtuned, it's just hard as fuck.
    and those people can raid heroic. nobody forcing anyone to raid mythic if they dont want to. They just cant have mythic loot from the instance. easy.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by psyquest View Post
    My Guild is the same. we killed jaina about 6 weeks ago and decided that the new raid is way too shit, require mainly casters etc and is a pain in the ass that tastes bland.

    So we are not doing it. It is the worse raid ever in wow.
    We just killed it this week with 5 melee and would have killed it with more. Fury warriors r busted dmg. Frost dos. Rogues. Dhs. Busted dmg + defensive buff cheese. I would've been fine with 7-8 if need be. We had an 8:30 kill time and that's with 5 healers, also Not even grabbing the buff. It's all bad perception of week 1-2 progression. The void crash and crushing choosing range is a huge nerf to casters and buff + quality of life to melee. The whole fight is uptime control of the buff. Proper defensives. Healing cds. Immunities. Dps using void stone and diamond trinket if need be. Just takes a little homework and fight prep that's the biggest detriment I see as a gm / rl. Other guilds unaware of how to min max a fight or micromanage their team.

    Cabal is only a 200-300 pull boss. Jaina being 300-400 is a nice change up. Of nearly half the pulls and cabal is all mechanics. We had to stop dps 3 x for timers. Uunat iS only a 300-400 pull boss and it's more so just the length 11 min fight that's annoying now.
    Last edited by Deathhowwl; 2019-06-16 at 07:40 PM.

  3. #83
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    Not a fan of mini-raids. CoS and ToV (to a lesser extent) have really unhealthy release schedules. They both occurred between major raid tier releases, had very little time to breathe, and also have the unfortunate pleasure of being tuned to a degree that requires flat nerfs (as opposed to progressively getting gear each week). I mentioned ToV as a lesser extent because at least in Legion, you could potentially RNG into a better legendary (lol) and the upper limit for your artifact growing in power was high enough that you would see your raid get a bit stronger each week. CoS? Yeah. CoS is like ToV without getting stronger, which feels shitty.

    It's obvious these raids, more notably CoS are catered to the very top of the top, which I suppose is fine. I think my main issue is that these raids have little time to breathe, and in an age of TF/WF with upper limit iLvL caps, there's no way to progressively get to a point where each week makes the instance feel easier. The first week you walk into Mythic CoS after clearing Mythic BoD will pretty likely be the same iLvL you finish CoS progression (if you even finish it). How people don't see this as an issue is beyond me. Your only course of action is to 'get good' (which is fine), or go to other means to get an advantage (which generally boils down to playing classes tailor made for that encounter).

    Again, not a fan, mostly for the above reasons. Are both of these raids enjoyable in regards to the encounters? Absolutely. ToV actually had really nice encounters despite my gripes with the overall direction Blizzard took with it's release schedule, and their overall philosophy with raiding. Same goes for CoS. I've only beaten Mythic Cabal (we haven't tried the last boss), but I can 100% say that aside from some minor nitpicks, the encounter flows pretty well and has pretty amazing design.

    The above still stands though. These raids come a couple months before the next major tier giving them no time to breathe, and they both are incredibly difficult with no means of out gearing them (and I don't mean out gearing them to the point that they become a joke).

    One final note though. I bet people would be more excited about doing CoS if they actually had fucking skips in BoD.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhowwl View Post
    We just killed it this week with 5 melee and would have killed it with more. Fury warriors r busted dmg. Frost dos. Rogues. Dhs. Busted dmg + defensive buff cheese. I would've been fine with 7-8 if need be. We had an 8:30 kill time and that's with 5 healers, also Not even grabbing the buff. It's all bad perception of week 1-2 progression. The void crash and crushing choosing range is a huge nerf to casters and buff + quality of life to melee. The whole fight is uptime control of the buff. Proper defensives. Healing cds. Immunities. Dps using void stone and diamond trinket if need be. Just takes a little homework and fight prep that's the biggest detriment I see as a gm / rl. Other guilds unaware of how to min max a fight or micromanage their team.

    Cabal is only a 200-300 pull boss. Jaina being 300-400 is a nice change up. Of nearly half the pulls and cabal is all mechanics. We had to stop dps 3 x for timers. Uunat iS only a 300-400 pull boss and it's more so just the length 11 min fight that's annoying now.
    So jaina+cabal+uunat is 1100 pulls.... yeh.... that's why people said fuck it. For one tier that is a crazy amount of pulls especially with only a few months to do 800 prog pulls assuming you killed Jaina already (which would be hard to have done for 2 day mythic guilds). A 2 day a week mythic guild would never be able to do it.
    Last edited by GreenJesus; 2019-06-16 at 08:26 PM.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenJesus View Post
    So jaina+cabal+uunat is 1100 pulls.... yeh.... that's why people said fuck it. For one tier that is a crazy amount of pulls especially with only a few months to do 800 prog pulls assuming you killed Jaina already (which would be hard to have done for 2 day mythic guilds). A 2 day a week mythic guild would never be able to do it.
    So much this. Blizzard is activley trying to kill us.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also I appreciate all the responses. Though I didn't really expect the toxicity from the uber tryhards who want to claim it's a skill issue or we're not good enough blah blah.

    Like jesus, I'm so sorry that we killed mythic jaina late. So Sorry for offending you obviously superior players. Get over yourselves.
    Dragonflight Summary, "Because friendship is magic"

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcc626 View Post
    and those people can raid heroic. nobody forcing anyone to raid mythic if they dont want to. They just cant have mythic loot from the instance. easy.
    This... is not the issue being discussed in this thread. I'm not even sure why you'r bringing this up while quoting me at all o_o

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by prwraith View Post
    So much this. Blizzard is activley trying to kill us.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also I appreciate all the responses. Though I didn't really expect the toxicity from the uber tryhards who want to claim it's a skill issue or we're not good enough blah blah.

    Like jesus, I'm so sorry that we killed mythic jaina late. So Sorry for offending you obviously superior players. Get over yourselves.
    What else is it if not a skill issue? Holy shit just because you killed mythic Jaina doesn't mean you're just as good as the people who killed her 3-4 months ago. Talk about getting over yourself. You keep posting here parading as some high level mythic raider when you're not much better than a semi-organized crossrealm Discord team. Maybe kill the boss faster next time so you can take a much needed vacation from playing fucking video games 6 hours a week before playing some video games again.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenJesus View Post
    So jaina+cabal+uunat is 1100 pulls.... yeh.... that's why people said fuck it. For one tier that is a crazy amount of pulls especially with only a few months to do 800 prog pulls assuming you killed Jaina already (which would be hard to have done for 2 day mythic guilds). A 2 day a week mythic guild would never be able to do it.
    Yes, it was definitely a tier where they wanted the best of the best to be tested it's not friendly to anyone time wise and skill wise above US 300. It's too bad cuz I know 2 day guilds or guilds only spending 2 of their 3 days in crucible killing cabal. Playing the safe strat and killed it before us in 180-210 pulls. ToV was better tuned but as far as fight mechanics and uniqueness as a wow raider of 14 years its top notch. Apparently it was only 1-2 people who designed this and they need a promotion, if you've tested ptr azshara palace its pretty Zzzzz. Csnt remember a worst tier compared to this next one upcoming in terms of uniqueness and fight lay out. The gear has cool twists.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenJesus View Post
    So jaina+cabal+uunat is 1100 pulls.... yeh.... that's why people said fuck it. For one tier that is a crazy amount of pulls especially with only a few months to do 800 prog pulls assuming you killed Jaina already (which would be hard to have done for 2 day mythic guilds). A 2 day a week mythic guild would never be able to do it.
    It's comparable to Tomb of Sargeras, what with Mistress, Avatar and KJ, but at least back then, we did get a mid-tier patch with a significant power boost that made things a lot easier. Not only that, but said power boost was alive for a decent amount of time, not released two weeks before everything became irrelevant. And bosses were still getting nerfed on top of that. And we had six months for everything. And it was still considered a bit much.

    And even ToV didn't have these issues, since it came on top of Xavius, who was probably the easiest end bosses ever made, and we were still progressing our artifact in the middle of all that. I really hope they don't keep releasing "mini-raids" in such form. At very least, offer some actually good loot in there, something that will be worth the effort... but then again, that just means farming Heroic and fishing for procs.

    Ah well, the place will be dead in a month. Good riddance.

  10. #90
    Imagine calling yourself a mythic raider and you just killed Jaina.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by TOM_RUS View Post
    It's still very overtuned. We are at around 300 pulls on cabal, but this boss is supposed to be Rasta/Mekka (those only took us 38 and 90 pulls) in diffuculty.

    This raid needs very huge nerfs still...
    if you got 300 pulls on nerfed cabal, you guys must be doing something horribly wrong

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Hilaw View Post
    if you got 300 pulls on nerfed cabal, you guys must be doing something horribly wrong
    Nerfed? There were barely any changes to the encounter... Berserk timer increase? 5% HP nerf? Melee not getting Crushing Doubt? Those are bug fixes, not nerfs and made no change to the encounter difficulty AT ALL.

    What it really needs is damage nerfs across the board so that you don't get random oneshots and so on...
    Or less reliance on interrupts and dispels. For example remove damage component when dispelling Promises of Power so that you can dispel more players with a single priest, increase Witness the End cast time etc...

    There's simply too much of instant wipe mechanics in single encounter.

    And overall this encounter is very unfun to progress on.
    Last edited by TOM_RUS; 2019-06-17 at 12:06 AM.

  13. #93
    The actual fight mechanics, after the nerfs making the ridiculous class stacking no longer required, are pretty decent. Uu'nat himself is a pretty fun boss outside of phase 1 if you ask me, albeit I haven't pulled him in Mythic yet and likely never will.

    But the timing of it is just horrible. We just got done with Jaina, herself a hard and sometimes bullshit boss in her own right, and right afterwards you get to Cabal who are hardly pushovers themselves, and then Uu'nat who is probably the hardest boss since Mythic KJ. It's similar to what happened in Tomb come to think of it, where we had two very hard bosses in a row with Avatar and KJ. Now we have a hard boss, then a fairly hard boss, and then a really hard boss wombo combo that will take you close to, or more than, 1000 wipes in between them with not that much in terms of loot to show for it.

    Blizzard needs to balance Mythic better so the entry-level bosses are less of a joke (seriously, what even is Champion of the Light) but IMO they also need to avoid balls to the walls, 500+ wipes final bosses that absolutely need to be taken to pound town with the nerfbat before non Hall of Fame guilds have a hope of even touching them. Difficulty progression within a raid is totally fine of course, but it's less fine when the early and late bosses feel like they belong in two or even three entirely different difficulty levels.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenJesus View Post
    So jaina+cabal+uunat is 1100 pulls.... yeh.... that's why people said fuck it. For one tier that is a crazy amount of pulls especially with only a few months to do 800 prog pulls assuming you killed Jaina already (which would be hard to have done for 2 day mythic guilds). A 2 day a week mythic guild would never be able to do it.
    world 55(i believe?) jaina was a 2 day guild

    also, Jaina+Cabal+Uunat is not even 800 pulls for an even semi decent guild(my guild was seen as a guild that wipes a lot and we took 340 on jaina/uunat, 130 on cabal), which is less than avatar and KJ were on progression combined in ToS

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by TOM_RUS View Post
    Nerfed? There were barely any changes to the encounter... Berserk timer increase? 5% HP nerf? Melee not getting Crushing Doubt? Those are bug fixes, not nerfs and made no change to the encounter difficulty AT ALL.

    What it really needs is damage nerfs across the board so that you don't get random oneshots and so on...
    Or less reliance on interrupts and dispels. For example remove damage component when dispelling Promises of Power so that you can dispel more players with a single priest, increase Witness the End cast time etc...

    There's simply too much of instant wipe mechanics in single encounter.

    And overall this encounter is very unfun to progress on.
    It was ~150 pull fight pre nerf. They also nerfed duration of Witness the End duration which makes you get better timing with interrupts. You can just take 5 healers and dispells are joke. One long Promises of Power at start and you can nearly ignore whole mechanic since enrage timer, nerfed hp and melee just afking at boss.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Hilaw View Post
    It was ~150 pull fight pre nerf.
    That's why all top guilds spent over 200 pulls on Cabal (talking about Pieces, Limit, Method etc), right?
    Over 200 pulls by top guilds on the boss that was supposed to be equal to Rasta/Mekka difficulty (30-100 pulls)...

    And 600-800 pulls on uunat that supposed to be equal to jaina (300-400 pulls).

    600-800 pulls for top guilds may be nothing, but for any regular mythic guild this is months of progress...
    Last edited by TOM_RUS; 2019-06-17 at 07:15 AM.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by TOM_RUS View Post
    That's why all top guilds spent over 200 pulls on Cabal (talking about Pieces, Limit, Method etc), right?
    Over 200 pulls by top guilds on the boss that was supposed to be equal to Rasta/Mekka difficulty (30-100 pulls)...

    And 600-800 pulls on uunat that supposed to be equal to jaina (300-400 pulls).

    600-800 pulls for top guilds may be nothing, but for any regular mythic guild this is months of progress...
    Well, at least top guilds did it while undergeared, making up for it with ridiculous class stacking. Meanwhile, everyone else went there with 10 more item levels and ... oh wait.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by TOM_RUS View Post
    That's why all top guilds spent over 200 pulls on Cabal (talking about Pieces, Limit, Method etc), right?
    Over 200 pulls by top guilds on the boss that was supposed to be equal to Rasta/Mekka difficulty (30-100 pulls)...

    And 600-800 pulls on uunat that supposed to be equal to jaina (300-400 pulls).

    600-800 pulls for top guilds may be nothing, but for any regular mythic guild this is months of progress...
    top guilds took 200+ attempts because no one knew what the strategy would be, hell, methods original strategy was to make zaxasj use the void stone twice then kite the boss for the rest of the fight with an arcane mage. no one even knew the berserk timer was 8:30 until like 4 hours into NA getting the raid. Additionally it might not occur to people who didn't do the fights when they were actually super hard, but the nerfs to cabal are EXTREMELY heavy compared to its original form. before the nerfs you had to push fathuul to 25% at exactly 5:17 on the boss timer to have good lineups for the add explosions and crushing doubt while still making the berserk. that's approximately 180 million boss damage dealt in 317 seconds, which is not trivial considering everything else going on. the fight is SIGNIFICANTLY easier now, and that's not to mention uunat. the whole of CoS right now is a 500ish pull instance, and jaina at most is 150-200 now. 1100 is such a massive disingenuous overexaggeration.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhowwl View Post
    Yes, it was definitely a tier where they wanted the best of the best to be tested it's not friendly to anyone time wise and skill wise above US 300. It's too bad cuz I know 2 day guilds or guilds only spending 2 of their 3 days in crucible killing cabal.
    Very "smart" move in a world where participation is dropping all across the board and engagement metrics are lowest since WOD. Also they just announced Alliance hall of fame will close whether it's full or not. Atm there's what, 1-2 US guilds in there? Not counting Australians. And 2 EU guilds (1 english, 1 german).

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by App View Post
    The target audience, as far as mythic was concerned, was groups of mythic raiders that wanted another challenge without bosses just falling over.
    "Waiter! This soup smells like raw sewage."

    "Sir, the target audience for the soup is people who LIKE the smell of raw sewage."

    "Oh, I guess that's ok then."
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

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