A Discourse on Night Elf Arcana and Their Highborne Group

[ravenmoon]

Personally, I think the elf on elf fighting is enough between blood elves and each of the alliance elves.

I think fans would welcome the opposite for a change between Kaldorei and shal’dorei, who seemed very connected in 7.0 - they should build them up in friendship from there as a contrast that shows elven groups instead coming together.

For night elf folk who are kinda much older than the humans and Orcs and whose view of the world or each other shouldnt be dominated by those 2 races either.

Especially since the nightborne, or a portion of the nightborne have followed in the footsteps of the shen'dralar recently, and the rest of the kaldorei from after the sundering in coming out of arcane addiction and hubris of the worse kind.
Yes, despite their faction ties, this makes sense

[mickybrighteyes]

Especially since the nightborne, or a portion of the nightborne have followed in the footsteps of the shen'dralar recently,

citation please.

[ravenmoon]

citation please.

I meant by that is a portion of the nightborne have followed in the footsteps of the shen'dralar by coming out of addiction

[mickybrighteyes]

Dont need a citation for that. What I meant by that is a portion of the nightborne have followed in the footsteps of the shen'dralar by coming out of addiction

If you're going to assert something you should generally provide some reasoning backing your statement. Thus a citation of some sort would be needed. Given your tendency for Elven interpretations on events.... I highly advise you to provide such materials to hope you reread whatever it is you THOUGHT was present.


Note the story of the shendralar was of being Aszhara's most revered Arcanists charged with safeguarding knowledge within Eldre'thelas... in the face of losing the well of eternity they shifted to demonic influence (Immol'thar). It seems they didn't really 'handle' their addiction even when diremaul was cleared... they then seem to be left in a similar state as high elves just dealing with it.

Shaldorei substitued the well of eternity with something comparable... the nightwell. Then they started going stupid with legion control and dealing with their populace inside their protective shield forcing their people to succumb to addiction. The resulting rebellion largely successful because a total and complete cure for addiction to the nightwell was discovered.

Note... one group successed on breaking addiction. Both groups survived in ancient cities thanks to magical shields. One city utterly failed in it's infrastructure and was eventually invaded by demons and ogres and younger civilizations. The other stood through the millenia and was maintained. To state the one that stood followed in teh footsteps of the other... because they got cured... is LAUGHABLE when the shendralar never found their cure. Shendralar are just purple High Elves that the story forgot.


edit:

forgot to add in. The culmination of teh Shendralar story at this point seems to be similar to the ren'dorei intro where they get to stormwind. Distrust and prejudice from those they should be allies with.

[ravenmoon]

If you're going to assert something you should generally provide some reasoning backing your statement. Thus a citation of some sort would be needed. Given your tendency for Elven interpretations on events.... I highly advise you to provide such materials to hope you reread whatever it is you THOUGHT was present.

Wow Micky, i usually do, I thought I did in the portion you quoted and then believed I tried to clarify. What I mean is usually implied directly in context if people would bother to take the time to read, it takes much to write than read, and I try to be thorough, which is why I write so much... if it is a mis understanding of what I said, I can fix that by explaining or elaborating.

In this case I was talking about the nightborne or a portion came out of addiction, just like the shen'dralar did...this is what was meant by followed in their footsteps..I didnt think you need a citation for this, cos you know the shen'dralar Camelot of addiction, and you know some of the nightfallen also did when they got cured

As for the rest, you are right if someone makes a claim they should be able to back it up, but careful you dont mis understand a person's opinion, desire or analysis of the situation as him stating it as lore, usually the context is implied or if he is careful he will directly state by saying things like I think, or I guess, or I reckon or maybe...these words are very important, because what follows after them is not a statement of fact, but a conclusion drawn by the writer or a desire presented, if they are thorough they may then bring out or state things in the lore that lead them to such a conclusion.

However this requires ACTUALLY reading what they write carefully and considering it. I believe I do, but hey, I'm not perfect.

[Verdugo]

As for the rest, you are right if someone makes a claim they should be able to back it up, but careful you dont mis understand a person's opinion, desire or analysis of the situation as him stating it as lore, usually the context is implied or if he is careful he will directly state by saying things like I think, or I guess, or I reckon or maybe...these words are very important, because what follows after them is not a statement of fact, but a conclusion drawn by the writer or a desire presented, if they are thorough they may then bring out or state things in the lore that lead them to such a conclusion.

However this requires ACTUALLY reading what they write carefully and considering it. I believe I do, but hey, I'm not perfect.

Thats why you used to vandalize wowpedia pages? Because "you think" or "you guess"?

[Mace]

Personally, I think the elf on elf fighting is enough between blood elves and each of the alliance elves.

I think fans would welcome the opposite for a change between Kaldorei and shal’dorei, who seemed very connected in 7.0 - they should build them up in friendship from there as a contrast that shows elven groups instead coming together.

While there needs to be a more than superficial distinction between nightborne and kaldorei highborne, I believe the culture of the shal'dorei should show clearly as that invasion period night elf culture.

We can have a faction of the shal'dorei (not all of them) be quite friendly with the kaldorei, maybe even the larger part of them, but not all of them.

The point of the nightborne is the invasion period Kaldorei culture of the pre-sundering era, and while that can grow (or we can have nightborne that grow more into the original pre-addiction kaldorei type set), we must have this uglier aspect still present and be the mark of distinction between the kaldorei group which is 100% reformed while the shal'dorei is visibly a work in progress with about 60% reforming but not quite there.

It introduces an important dynamic and interesting complexity, while allowing for that new cross faction racial friendship to be present with room to grow, but not unopposed either nor go unchallenged by people who feel differently.

There are two types of highborne, marked by two stages of the pre-sundering era.the original pre-addiction noble arcane lords, revering the wilds (not necessarily loving living in them) in second place to their arcane love, but clearly noble, benevolent etc like the kaldorei is typically. And the second type, marked by the invasion period, the post addiction ones, full of hubris, reckless, decadent etc...which is the society the nightborne are in 7.0. And even if not all the nightborne are like that, this needs to be a feature amongst them where the Kaldorei are tugging them towards their original kaldorei character and the sin'dorei pulling them the other way.

Now I think THAT would be very interesting.

[mickybrighteyes]

Wow Micky, i usually do, I thought I did in the portion you quoted and then believed I tried to clarify.

IN the portion I was discussing this was all that was said:

For night elf folk who are kinda much older than the humans and Orcs and whose view of the world or each other shouldnt be dominated by those 2 races either.

Especially since the nightborne, or a portion of the nightborne have followed in the footsteps of the shen'dralar recently, and the rest of the kaldorei from after the sundering in coming out of arcane addiction and hubris of the worse kind.
Yes, despite their faction ties, this makes sense

NOw maybe I missed some earlier bit cause I really can't be arsed to double check ALL your posts since from what I can tell it too often doesn't correlate to existing lore.

What I mean is usually implied directly in context if people would bother to take the time to read, it takes much to write than read, and I try to be thorough, which is why I write so much... if it is a mis understanding of what I said, I can fix that by explaining or elaborating.

In this case I was talking about the nightborne or a portion came out of addiction, just like the shen'dralar did...

last I was aware, after getting routed in Dire Maul and eventually moving back in with the keldorei the last bit on their addiction is:

" trying to wean themselves off demonic power and feel whole again"

this is what was meant by followed in their footsteps..I didnt think you need a citation for this, cos you know the shen'dralar Camelot of addiction, and you know some of the nightfallen also did when they got cured

NO a citation is needed because I don't see anywhere that they DID cure their addiction. They shifted from Well of Eternity to using demons to jury-rig Eldre-Thalas and eventually lost that and were hosed. Unless you have a different source....

THAT is why I'm asking CITATION PLEASE.

[Beloren]

NO a citation is needed because I don't see anywhere that they DID cure their addiction. They shifted from Well of Eternity to using demons to jury-rig Eldre-Thalas and eventually lost that and were hosed. Unless you have a different source....

THAT is why I'm asking CITATION PLEASE.

It's in Chronicles, the shen'ddrlaar spent a few years in the forests of Feralas where they were weaned off their addictions. And in cata the drudis consider them uncorrupted, and I don't think night elves would put up with addicts or trust them.

- - - Updated - - -

While there needs to be a more than superficial distinction between nightborne and kaldorei highborne, I believe the culture of the shal'dorei should show clearly as that invasion period night elf culture.

We can have a faction of the shal'dorei (not all of them) be quite friendly with the kaldorei, maybe even the larger part of them, but not all of them.

The point of the nightborne is the invasion period Kaldorei culture of the pre-sundering era, and while that can grow (or we can have nightborne that grow more into the original pre-addiction kaldorei type set), we must have this uglier aspect still present and be the mark of distinction between the kaldorei group which is 100% reformed while the shal'dorei is visibly a work in progress with about 60% reforming but not quite there.

It introduces an important dynamic and interesting complexity, while allowing for that new cross faction racial friendship to be present with room to grow, but not unopposed either nor go unchallenged by people who feel differently.

There are two types of highborne, marked by two stages of the pre-sundering era.the original pre-addiction noble arcane lords, revering the wilds (not necessarily loving living in them) in second place to their arcane love, but clearly noble, benevolent etc like the kaldorei is typically. And the second type, marked by the invasion period, the post addiction ones, full of hubris, reckless, decadent etc...which is the society the nightborne are in 7.0. And even if not all the nightborne are like that, this needs to be a feature amongst them where the Kaldorei are tugging them towards their original kaldorei character and the sin'dorei pulling them the other way.

Now I think THAT would be very interesting.

I use to want them to fight.. i preferred void elves on the horde and nightborne on the alliance so the dark elf bunch would be on one factioin and the high elf bunch on the other - both would have forest elf elements, with high elves (i.e. blood elves) having hte more LotR esque version in their farstriders and night elven huntress/sentinels would be blizzards unique version.

But at this moment, i'm just sick of the faction war that seems so super forced in light of how we have all worked together so much. And while I can accept thalassians hating darnassians, i cannot accpet this is everyone, or that nightborne would hate kaldorei they were introduced as being very boldly proud of. And to see yet more elves destroyed just to fix them into the faction hating box, without no proviision for nuance...

what about the player population that wants to work together? What about all the character and options that are dead because tify ou are in the horde you have to fight and hate the alliance no matter what.

[mickybrighteyes]

It's in Chronicles, the shen'ddrlaar spent a few years in the forests of Feralas where they were weaned off their addictions. And in cata the drudis consider them uncorrupted, and I don't think night elves would put up with addicts or trust them.

As I said they were forced to wean off their addiction... but that's the last say and it doesn't seem to conclusively state the outcome beyond this point.

Also, from the portrayal in cata concerning Shendralar, the night elves DON'T trust them. This storyline sort of drops off into the same area as blood elves tossed into the violet hold (i.e. not present).

As far as I'm aware, they're as 'weaned off' as high elves... who are still suffering but have their methods for handling themselves.

[ravenmoon]

As I said they were forced to wean off their addiction... but that's the last say and it doesn't seem to conclusively state the outcome beyond this point.

Also, from the portrayal in cata concerning Shendralar, the night elves DON'T trust them. This storyline sort of drops off into the same area as blood elves tossed into the violet hold (i.e. not present).

As far as I'm aware, they're as 'weaned off' as high elves... who are still suffering but have their methods for handling themselves.

No where does it say high elves were weaned off.

The shen'dralar trust issues were when they were waiting to see if the Darnassians would accept their alliance mostly, the mistrust is not stated anywhere to be because the highborne are still addicted or might be. And the mistrust in Wolfheart is wrapped up with Maiev being the source. That's not to say all night elves immediately trust the use of arcane magic as an okay thing after wards, (af least up to the Legion expansion revealed a cure and understanding of how to prevent it alongside vital revelations about everything that contributed to the long vigil periods ban.) But the truth on the matter indicates that they arent addicted and trust issues with them would improve with time and revelations..most of the issues on mistrust of the arcane were tied to the fall of their empire, and highbornemistrust is based on attitude and character with visibly tell take signs all night elved would beware off.

They would not enter an alliance with addicts and certainly not with Tyrande and Malfurion advocating. Tyrande we know is disgusted by addiction judging by her reaction to the nightborne in 7.1 I dont think her race's highborne are in that boat, and chronicles confirms it.

I dont think we have sufficient evidence to support addicted shen'dralar...people clinging to that concept despite the conclusions in wolfheart, revelations in cata and Legion and the fact that it is clear night elves cant stand the invasion period addiction of the pre-sundering era, why would they stand a new reformed highborne group being addicted?

Failure to accept this indicates a belief that night elves can't or dont believe use of magic without being addicted is possible for night elves - where the lore shows clearly this is not the case now, we know their arcane wielding society did use magic outstandingly and responsibly for millennia before addiction overcame it around the period of the invasion - and we are told how they got addicted too ( so to believe they can get addiction but somehow not believe they can be free of it even when the lore tells you this group weaned off is you just not accepting the lore). Also since then, they now understand how to prevent and cure it as the quests in Legion expac reveal.. there is no reason not to believe that the Darnassian highborne order led by the shen'dralar is not addicted and no reason not to believe they are more like how the night elven highborne and arcane users were before the addiction first happened, noble and highly intelligent. Just as we see Prince Farondis and his court.

Weaned off
Uncorrupted
Trusted by both Malfurion and Tyrande
Accepted by the night elves.

I mean, what else is there to conclude and what reason would you have to think otherwise?

[Combatbutler]

No where does it say high elves were weaned off.
Uncorrupted
Trusted by both Malfurion and Tyrande
Accepted by the night elves.

All of these points are heavy contended they might be tolerated but trusted is most certainly not the right word, we never see wide spread acceptance of the Shen'dralar at any point in the entirety of the lore and don't get me started on uncorrupted these guys were on fel magic for literally ten thousand years, only demons themselves dabble that much in fel magic.

[mickybrighteyes]

No where does it say high elves were weaned off.

High elves are stated to deal with their mana habits through numerous sources and that their mana addiction is something that they have to deal with. Their state is implied as being one that all elves who dabble in arcane have to deal with it's just that the high elves by and large dont have some ginormous magical font of energy (like the Nightborne/Blood elves/night elves/etc all have).

Why I reference the high elves is due to how they are stated to use mana gems and other such methods for dealing with their arcane issues. If you're looking for "weaned off" as a direct quote, you'll likely only find it in reference to teh shendralar as what they were forced to attempt after being removed from Eldre'thalas.

Also since then, they now understand how to prevent and cure it as the quests in Legion expac reveal.. there is no reason not to believe that the Darnassian highborne order led by the shen'dralar is not addicted and no reason not to believe they are more like how the night elven highborne and arcane users were before the addiction first happened, noble and highly intelligent. Just as we see Prince Farondis and his court.

Weaned off
Uncorrupted
Trusted by both Malfurion and Tyrande
Accepted by the night elves.

Given the physical state of the Court of Farondis..... I'd argue they aren't a good example indicating addiction effects. Lack of physical bodies, arguably 'dead' as a result of their curse... It might be better described as looking at them from pre-sundering under the effects of the well of eternity.

I mean, what else is there to conclude and what reason would you have to think otherwise?

You're concluding that the shendralar are fully integrated, I disagree with this notion. you also assume that because they were forced to 'wean off' that they were ultimately CURED which is a process that not even the High Elves succeeded at.

You also are one to assume that night elves that exist in a society that disliked arcane practices to the point of banning it and exiling practitioners (the reason for high elves and later blood elves existing) that had no interaction with the actual arcane practitioners we later see (shendralar were locked away in Eldre'thalas with no real contact, nightborn and the rest are recent revelations... only the moonguard resembles anything close to post pact night elves and there's very little lore on that situation)


As for legion's 'cure'... it's just the same shit that we did in TBC. Magic font was deemed corrupted or whatever so we replaced mystic font with NEW thing that somehow cured those that needed it. This time with weird magic fruit of never before seen origins instead of holy light.

But still. this was originally a jab about how the shaldorei are following the Shendralar somehow despite only ONE of the groups being 'cured' (weaned off as a started process was, again, the ONLY thing said and I have doubts the shendralar can achieve something the high elves have yet to complete when they haven't tried for as long). And how one of these groups seems to have lost any identity except for those of us who bothered reading in on them.

[ravenmoon]

All of these points are heavy contended they might be tolerated but trusted is most certainly not the right word, we never see wide spread acceptance of the Shen'dralar at any point in the entirety of the lore and don't get me started on uncorrupted these guys were on fel magic for literally ten thousand years, only demons themselves dabble that much in fel magic.

And as discussed with you before the basis of your "might be tolerated" hinges on a early post cata story of a priest, and ignores all the other signs of far wider acceptance.

At the end of the day, the nature of the mmo is to be as ambigouos as possible so people can role play how they want. if you want to see night elves as barely tolerant to magic users or not trusting of them, you'd be wrong, to generalise the raec as that, but you would have justirifaciton at least to role play your character as such,b ecause it is not unheared off. I would never go so far as to say barely tolerated at this point int ime.. you seem to think the night elves are still in the long vigil and haven't changed with the massive events that have since happened including the war that ended said vigil.

The way I see the lore is many have changed, and it was gradual enough. The most vehemently opposed (Maiev) seemed to have turned a leaf on that and many other things in Legion, though she won't admit it and postures a lot, her actions speak to this.

And you don't need to start on their fel corruption, just focuss that the lore tells you they are uncorrupted now and weaned of i.e. off their addictions and corruptions.

- - - Updated - - -

High elves are stated to deal with their mana habits through numerous sources and that their mana addiction is something that they have to deal with. Their state is implied as being one that all elves who dabble in arcane have to deal with it's just that the high elves by and large dont have some ginormous magical font of energy (like the Nightborne/Blood elves/night elves/etc all have).

I was referring to the specific term "weaned off" as you were trying to say weaned off doesn't mean they are free from addiction.

Why I reference the high elves is due to how they are stated to use mana gems and other such methods for dealing with their arcane issues. If you're looking for "weaned off" as a direct quote, you'll likely only find it in reference to the shendralar as what they were forced to attempt after being removed from Eldre'thalas.

It says they spent a few years in the forest of Feralas weaning themselves

Given the physical state of the Court of Farondis..... I'd argue they aren't a good example indicating addiction effects. Lack of physical bodies, arguably 'dead' as a result of their curse... It might be better described as looking at them from pre-sundering under the effects of the well of eternity.

All I was saying was that some of the nightborne, like the shen'dralar are now free from addiction.

Farondis are not that way because of addiction, but because of the curse Azshara cast on them. if you want to see smoke where there is no smoke, eventually you will see it. if you want to presume all night elven arcane users or highborne members are addicts, and can never be free of that, because the only mindset and state of the night elves you accept is the state they were at in WC3 and their attitudes based on the very limited knowledge of the group that was revealed then.. then you will never believe. You would ignore, question and doubt all the new lore that shows otherwise because it is not what you want to see.

If it helps, you have to view the story as a dynamic one. Things change. Huge events happen, events that can drastically change and reshape peoples.. blizzard spins a story for each race, when events that are partcicualr to a group happen, they are going to change that group in one way, and part of the beauty of crating this world is showing some of the changes that occur and telling the story continually showing progression. I'm sure if blizzard showed a kaldorei story throughout the years since WC3, rather than skip to key moments, you would have a much better description of how the changes occur, based on the model of the charater of the Kaldorei - which you cannot ignore .. their character is WISE, Benevolent, forgiving and understanding, looking for healing more so than division - this does not exclude responding hard and tough to corruption and demons - the story shows you why the night elves would respond very aggressively and lethally to the demons - that doesn't mean they are hotheads who all of a sudden cannot be good or benevolent.. they have a character, they have history.. if you apply those variables you can understand how they can generally want their society to mend, including highborne like the shen'dralar -who didn't portal in demons but were part of the group that was problematic, - it doesn't mean being forgiving means they accept addiction and corruption - they don't, but to assume the shen'dralar somehow cannot be addiction free, when a few years later legion expansion follows with the details on how another night elf community, the nightborne gain both a cure to addiction and they reveal the how addiction can happen and what is responsible to preventing it... why assume because the shend'ralar details aren't told that, it can't happen?

You're concluding that the shendralar are fully integrated, I disagree with this notion. you also assume that because they were forced to 'wean off' that they were ultimately CURED which is a process that not even the High Elves succeeded at.

I was concluding the shen'dralar are accepted by the Darnassians (this is what Wolfheart shows - they were not rejected, everyone accepted them in, and Maiev was uncovered to be the one orchestrating the resistance to them rejoining - they are not rejected), and established as the kaldorei highborne order (which we see was part of their conditions and they over see a new arcane community - using the pieces of information, like being free from addiction, the quests with Estulan, Mordant Evenshade's quotes, the Starlance twins and the rather frequent and often appearance of Night elven magi since cataclysm, with no change in the kaldorei's attitude to addiction or recklessness, there is more than enough indication to presume that this group is- full integration? Is another topic, they are a separate order allied to the Darnassians, this was made clear in their set of conditions - " they won't have to integrate, pick up the culture of the Darnassians, they would have full autonomy of magic and would not be restricted" - the issues of their trustiworthiness and sobriety (for lack of a better word) were settled in Wolfheart - though not all the details of the negotiations are shown, the conclusion is they are trusted enough to join - and Malfurion reckons full acceptance might take as much as a few years, but would happen - this is at the beginning of the novel, at the end of the novel, they are accepted. So.. I don't see what the hassle is.

You also are one to assume that night elves that exist in a society that disliked arcane practices to the point of banning it and exiling practitioners (the reason for high elves and later blood elves existing) that had no interaction with the actual arcane practitioners we later see (shendralar were locked away in Eldre'thalas with no real contact, nightborn and the rest are recent revelations... only the moonguard resembles anything close to post pact night elves and there's very little lore on that situation)

As for legion's 'cure'... it's just the same shit that we did in TBC. Magic font was deemed corrupted or whatever so we replaced mystic font with NEW thing that somehow cured those that needed it. This time with weird magic fruit of never before seen origins instead of holy light.

Already it is different.. you saying same shit because they overcome? buty ou ignore the story is very different, nature and balance is promited here, and revealed to be the agent that prevents addiction - afterall, the night elves handled the arcane for millennia before they started getting addicted. The lore shows us that two things happened, they were going further and further from balance of nature and using natural things, instead using the arcane for everything, then excessively and recklessly using it more an more far beyond what they were responsibly doing - hence they get addicted. The story reveals a lot about night elven addiction. It is different from the thalassians, because blizzard wanted a different story for a different elven group.

But still. this was originally a jab about how the shaldorei are following the Shendralar somehow despite only ONE of the groups being 'cured' (weaned off as a started process was, again, the ONLY thing said and I have doubts the shendralar can achieve something the high elves have yet to complete when they haven't tried for as long). And how one of these groups seems to have lost any identity except for those of us who bothered reading in on them.

So it's surprising that a much older group, far more conversant and acquainted with magic, including the origin of this art would find a way to deal with it before the much younger group.. and just because the detail isn't told, it makes the stated results therefore invalid?

Right. I've wasted enough time.. Have a good night.

[Combatbutler]

And as discussed with you before the basis of your "might be tolerated" hinges on a early post cata story of a priest, and ignores all the other signs of far wider acceptance.
.

Give me a valid source that things have changed and I will drop it, but you have no such source, or real indicators just what you want to happen, it is just that simple.

[ravenmoon]

Give me a valid source that things have changed and I will drop it, but you have no such source, or real indicators just what you want to happen, it is just that simple.

You want a source that directly says they are tolerated and accepted, and all the indications I pointed out to you in the earlier discussion mean nothing?

The shen'dralar were accepted back into night elf society, this is how we can play mages, the story of how this starts is told in Wolfheart and progressed in cata.

[Combatbutler]

You want a source that directly says they are tolerated and accepted, and all the indications I pointed out to you in the earlier discussion mean nothing?

The shen'dralar were accepted back into night elf society, this is how we can play mages, the story of how this starts is told in Wolfheart and progressed in cata.

There are no indicators that they are openly accepted into their society I have read every last short story, every last book, did every quest in the game, read every comic. The Shen'dralar are pretty much outcasts in night elf society from everything what I have read, what you say about the mage lifestyle in night elf society runs contrary to pretty much everything we have been shown and told thus far.

So yeah give me a valid source and not guesswork without basis to back it up.

[mickybrighteyes]

I was referring to the specific term "weaned off" as you were trying to say weaned off doesn't mean they are free from addiction.

Yes. It won't say the high elves 'weaned' off anything because they have been stated to shun the alternatives that their brethren have been using to satisfy the need. Where Sin'dorei took to leeching mana from living beings, High Elves took other methods that were less invasive.

This is also a subject that has only been brought up in regards to the shendralar so you'll likely only find that one citation regarding the shendralar being forced out of Eldre'thalas as the singular exclusive reference indicating anything concerning 'weaning' as a method to handle mana/magic addiction in the wow lore.

It says they spent a few years in the forest of Feralas weaning themselves

I remember it like this:

In Year 25, the majority of elves, including the prince, was killed by the Horde when they raided Dire Maul. The surviving ones fled the ruined city and wandered in the woods for years, trying to wean themselves off demonic power and feel whole again

I've yet to see any confirmation on the success of the endeavor. I find the high elves that survived quel'thalas who refused to join with the Sindorei to have been forced into a similar fate and are not stated to have been cured (unless the restoration of the sunwell acted as such).

All I was saying was that some of the nightborne, like the shen'dralar are now free from addiction.

Which is a different story altogether. one I'm arguing is not the case. I ask you to cite where teh shendralar are cured and you seem to cite the material I would say only shows they were forced to change rather then a source that shows the change worked. I'm just going to outright say it... such a source does not exist in the current story because the shendralar never got much after their re-introduction into night elf society.

Farondis are not that way because of addiction, but because of the curse Azshara cast on them.

That isn't the point I'm trying to make. The point is that their actions and mental state do not really indicate anything regarding the plight of living/normal elves.

You can see their society as a window to how it partially existed before the loss of the well of eternity... which would also be a look before the detriment of any such addictions would have played out. In general.... dead or semi-living beings aren't the best window to look through.

if you want to see smoke where there is no smoke, eventually you will see it. if you want to presume all night elven arcane users or highborne members are addicts, and can never be free of that, because the only mindset and state of the night elves you accept is the state they were at in WC3 and their attitudes based on the very limited knowledge of the group that was revealed then.. then you will never believe. You would ignore, question and doubt all the new lore that shows otherwise because it is not what you want to see.

I am going to remind you that EVERY elven being is intrisically tied to a magical powersource and without that powersource they turn into some withered mindless being. Night elves too long bereft of the well of eternity or trees grown with its waters lost their color and would eventually seem to turn into what might best be desrcibed as zombies... This was evident in Quel'thalas for first regions blood elves quest in and is made evident again when we see the withered on the Broken Isles. It's not an addiction that is limited to arcane users, but arcanists are the biggest abusers.

I'm doubting only what you seem to latch onto because your sources aren't always all that great. Case in

If it helps, you have to view the story as a dynamic one. Things change. Huge events happen, events that can drastically change and reshape peoples.. blizzard spins a story for each race, when events that are partcicualr to a group happen, they are going to change that group in one way, and part of the beauty of crating this world is showing some of the changes that occur and telling the story continually showing progression. I'm sure if blizzard showed a kaldorei story throughout the years since WC3, rather than skip to key moments, you would have a much better description of how the changes occur, based on the model of the charater of the Kaldorei - which you cannot ignore .. their character is WISE, Benevolent, forgiving and understanding, looking for healing more so than division - this does not exclude responding hard and tough to corruption and demons - the story shows you why the night elves would respond very aggressively and lethally to the demons - that doesn't mean they are hotheads who all of a sudden cannot be good or benevolent.. they have a character, they have history.. if you apply those variables you can understand how they can generally want their society to mend, including highborne like the shen'dralar -who didn't portal in demons but were part of the group that was problematic, - it doesn't mean being forgiving means they accept addiction and corruption - they don't, but to assume the shen'dralar somehow cannot be addiction free, when a few years later legion expansion follows with the details on how another night elf community, the nightborne gain both a cure to addiction and they reveal the how addiction can happen and what is responsible to preventing it... why assume because the shend'ralar details aren't told that, it can't happen?

This right here is a lot of your own bias for elves coming through. You wnat to interpret various events a certain way, that's fine. The issues arise when you try and argue your view is somehow more accurate despite a lack of information to back your claims

I was concluding the shen'dralar are accepted by the Darnassians (this is what Wolfheart shows - they were not rejected, everyone accepted them in, and Maiev was uncovered to be the one orchestrating the resistance to them rejoining - they are not rejected), and established as the kaldorei highborne order (which we see was part of their conditions and they over see a new arcane community - using the pieces of information, like being free from addiction, the quests with Estulan, Mordant Evenshade's quotes, the Starlance twins and the rather frequent and often appearance of Night elven magi since cataclysm, with no change in the kaldorei's attitude to addiction or recklessness, there is more than enough indication to presume that this group is- full integration? Is another topic, they are a separate order allied to the Darnassians, this was made clear in their set of conditions - " they won't have to integrate, pick up the culture of the Darnassians, they would have full autonomy of magic and would not be restricted" - the issues of their trustiworthiness and sobriety (for lack of a better word) were settled in Wolfheart - though not all the details of the negotiations are shown, the conclusion is they are trusted enough to join - and Malfurion reckons full acceptance might take as much as a few years, but would happen - this is at the beginning of the novel, at the end of the novel, they are accepted. So.. I don't see what the hassle is.

You like to see such missing details in favor of your view and ignore that they might not. Case in point being forced to wean themselves off demonic power being taken to mean they cured their addictions....

Already it is different.. you saying same shit because they overcome? buty ou ignore the story is very different, nature and balance is promited here, and revealed to be the agent that prevents addiction - afterall, the night elves handled the arcane for millennia before they started getting addicted.

They had their magic few untold periods of time before the lore even took notice. the problems started when they lost it the first time and the well of eternity was sundered. This is the point in time that starts the real troubles and how they try and handle things is the fallout.

The lore shows us that two things happened, they were going further and further from balance of nature and using natural things, instead using the arcane for everything, then excessively and recklessly using it more an more far beyond what they were responsibly doing - hence they get addicted. The story reveals a lot about night elven addiction. It is different from the thalassians, because blizzard wanted a different story for a different elven group.

IMO it seems that the addiction stems from existing with magic sources for such extensive periods of time. Note the high elves didn't experience their withdrawals until they left the influence of the wold tree. Same goes for nightborne who sealed themselves off during the sundering and the Shendralar who liekwise sealed themselves off during the sundering. This seems to suggest that the night elves would still have the same issue present in themselves by default but it's never an issue since they had the world tree... and later teldrassil to support them in that arena.

IF this is the case then it means the loss of teldrassil is going to get very interesting and are those moonwells really going to be enough to sate the remaining elves? Or (more likely imo) are they just going to disregard this whole thing and everyone gets arcandor style healing.

So it's surprising that a much older group, far more conversant and acquainted with magic, including the origin of this art would find a way to deal with it before the much younger group.. and just because the detail isn't told, it makes the stated results therefore invalid?

You can't really prove the detail is even real when it's not stated or backed up beyond your own claims. There's not even a full on confirmation of the success.

[Mace]

I use to want them to fight.. i preferred void elves on the horde and nightborne on the alliance so the dark elf bunch would be on one factioin and the high elf bunch on the other - both would have forest elf elements, with high elves (i.e. blood elves) having hte more LotR esque version in their farstriders and night elven huntress/sentinels would be blizzards unique version.

But at this moment, i'm just sick of the faction war that seems so super forced in light of how we have all worked together so much. And while I can accept thalassians hating darnassians, i cannot accpet this is everyone, or that nightborne would hate kaldorei they were introduced as being very boldly proud of. And to see yet more elves destroyed just to fix them into the faction hating box, without no proviision for nuance...

what about the player population that wants to work together? What about all the character and options that are dead because tify ou are in the horde you have to fight and hate the alliance no matter what.

Races don't have to be black and white, the night elves were set up as a race with an arcane and nature duality. Its priesthood and magocracy symbolised the arcane dark elf side, and the druids and forest rangers the forest elf side.


Their complex history, 2 major eras, present "new era" that has various orders including fel wielder potential makes them very interesting .

The nightborne and highborne kaldorei could actually be a major source of inter elf corporation that could have parts of the priesthood involved, especially the arcane caster side and the void side, allowing them to also connecting to Thalassians, incl void elves and high elves.

Whereas the highborne corporation with nightborne could also bridge faction lines with an interesting dynamic , especially if shal'dorei are very keen to connect with the shen'dralar reinvigorated order and curious about their advancements in the last 10k years...nightborne are portrayed in 7.0 as very proud of their kaldorei heritage, and the highborne are the kaldorei group I could see them keen on reconnecting with..,through the highborne and Farodin they can have access to kaldorei druidsm, and through the temple of Elune and word from Elune herself, reconnect with the priesthood.

I would focus on the arcane druid connection though, but tie in the priesthood later. Valtrois and Estulan would make good friends..and they could have situations that bring them together to solve problems, maybe even a romance.