[Megathread] Final Fantasy XIV

[Katchii]

It is Duty Finder. You take the rough with the smooth, and have to accept that any and all ability levels are in the game. You don't know the reasons for them playing slowly, and just make assumptions.

The usual argumentative bullshit of "Oh, but the group!" is just a self-indulgent whine. None of you think about the group, you think about yourselves. So stop pretending otherwise.

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Stop pretending you give a shit about the group, when it is just a silly whine about what *you* you should get from a dungeon experience.

Hate to break it to you buddy, but when you’re in a dungeon, you’re part of the group. So doing what you can to make it go faster isn’t self serving. Granted there’s a difference between doing your best to help the dungeon move along faster and being the asshole DPS that pulls extra stuff the tank didn’t get first or running ahead and pulling for the tank, but we all know that’s not what we’re talking about.

As to this site being a cesspool of circle jerking assholes as you so eloquently put it, you’re one of the most toxic posters I’ve ever seen in this thread, let alone on this site.

Thank god SE agrees with me on this kind of behavior. If I ever catch you or anyone like you online in FFXIV I’ll kick you for harassment.

[Wrecktangle]

Had you known the slightest thing about FF14, you would know the core bulk of the game isn't about optimal rotation or such, but in mechanics. You learn them, dps is secondary believe it or not. All dungeons and raids have a timer for completion. That is the content limit. Not how fast the boss dies.

Last I checked, DPS is the sole winning condition of the combat system. In order to clear an encounter you need to do DPS. Mechanics are mechanisms to PREVENT you from doing DPS. That means that it comes first and foremost. You do not clear an encounter for running the timer out or doing the dance perfectly. You must deplete the enemies HP to 0. Thus, DPS is not only included in mechanics, but it's THE core mechanic. To suggest anything otherwise is you pushing an agenda without looking at it critically.

Except everything you have said here is completely against what SE and Yoshi P want for their game. Kicking someone for not being "Good enough" to beat the dungeon timer fast enough to your thinking, is not a group mentality they wish to foster, so am sorry to say, you are in there wrong here, regardless of how *right* you may wish to be.

Don't want people maybe taking the limit nor wish to run the risk? Don't use things like the Duty Finder then I am afraid, everything you have just listed in that regard is pious rambling.

Actually, Yoshi has gone on record several times stating that it's up to the party. If the PARTY feels that a player isn't up to THEIR collective standards then dismissing is not only allowed, but recommended as cited under the "difference in playstyles" category and is not reportable or punishable. That is why no single player can vote dismiss someone. You can live in carebear land all you want, but for those of us in the real world we enjoy accountability and will hold people to what the community deems reasonable behavior. That tends to mean:

• Don't be AFK/half-assing it
• Use AOE

Hardly worth getting all defensive about. If a player can't manage that they do not deserve to be a part of a team effort. Stick to solo content. To add further insight, if you look at how the JP DF works it's actually the opposite to your statement. They use the DF for experienced player matchmaking and the PF for learning/lesser skilled endeavors.

If anyone here is guilty of pious rambling, it's you.

I hear the argument *all* the time, and the same bullshit reasoning from WoW, and every other MMO player that uses said addons. They argue it is a tool, that other players misuse them, but not them themselves, because they are a purer, more noble breed. It is basically all just self-justified horseshit. What the real reasoning is, is that you feel your gameplay is superior, and your personal experience shouldn't be *ruined* by what you feel are "lesser" players.

No one here has to argue ACT is a tool. It's an UNDENIABLE FACT that it is nothing but a tool. To suggest otherwise is an indication that you are struggling to remove your bias and emotions and look critically and logically at the discussion. You're assumptions regarding pro-parser players and them thinking they're better than *you* (not you specifically, the collective you) is a heavy indication of personal insecurity.

Your inability to differentiate between genuine facts and emotionally charged opinions in conjunction with your performance insecurity is further proof that you aren't in the correct state of mind to have a meaningful discussion on the topic. You've done nothing but be antagonistic to several posters while preaching a holier than thou attitude and sprouting misinformation. While we likely have very different definitions of toxicity, you're a walking example of what I consider toxic behavior.

Hate to break it to you buddy, but when you’re in a dungeon, you’re part of the group. So doing what you can to make it go faster isn’t self serving. Granted there’s a difference between doing your best to help the dungeon move along faster and being the asshole DPS that pulls extra stuff the tank didn’t get first or running ahead and pulling for the tank, but we all know that’s not what we’re talking about.

As to this site being a cesspool of circle jerking assholes as you so eloquently put it, you’re one of the most toxic posters I’ve ever seen in this thread, let alone on this site.

Thank god SE agrees with me on this kind of behavior. If I ever catch you or anyone like you online in FFXIV I’ll kick you for harassment.

Lol I'm dying.

[Katchii]

Last I checked, DPS is the sole winning condition of the combat system. In order to clear an encounter you need to do DPS. Mechanics are mechanisms to PREVENT you from doing DPS. That means that it comes first and foremost. You do not clear an encounter for running the timer out or doing the dance perfectly. You must deplete the enemies HP to 0. Thus, DPS is not only included in mechanics, but it's THE core mechanic. To suggest anything otherwise is you pushing an agenda without looking at it critically.



Actually, Yoshi has gone on record several times stating that it's up to the party. If the PARTY feels that a player isn't up to THEIR collective standards then dismissing is not only allowed, but recommended as cited under the "difference in playstyles" category and is not reportable or punishable. That is why no single player can vote dismiss someone. You can live in carebear land all you want, but for those of us in the real world we enjoy accountability and will hold people to what the community deems reasonable behavior. That tends to mean:

• Don't be AFK/half-assing it
• Use AOE

Hardly worth getting all defensive about. If a player can't manage that they do not deserve to be a part of a team effort. Stick to solo content. To add further insight, if you look at how the JP DF works it's actually the opposite to your statement. They use the DF for experienced player matchmaking and the PF for learning/lesser skilled endeavors.

If anyone here is guilty of pious rambling, it's you.



No one here has to argue ACT is a tool. It's an UNDENIABLE FACT that it is nothing but a tool. To suggest otherwise is an indication that you are struggling to remove your bias and emotions and look critically and logically at the discussion. You're assumptions regarding pro-parser players and them thinking they're better than *you* (not you specifically, the collective you) is a heavy indication of personal insecurity.

Your inability to differentiate between genuine facts and emotionally charged opinions in conjunction with your performance insecurity is further proof that you aren't in the correct state of mind to have a meaningful discussion on the topic. You've done nothing but be antagonistic to several posters while preaching a holier than thou attitude and sprouting misinformation. While we likely have very different definitions of toxicity, you're a walking example of what I consider toxic behavior.



Lol I'm dying.

I was seriously reading that last post by this paragon of community mentality (/eyeroll) looking exactly like that confused Jackie Chan meme. I made noises like huh? what the...? how...? O.o?

Anyway, been having some fun in Expert Roulette the last few days gearing up all my classes to at least ~360, hopefully closer to 375 or so before launch with the primary goal of getting my tank and ranged DPS (GNB and DNC) gearing up to as close to 390 as I can. Did Orbonne Monastery once and am still not sure if I'll go back. I want the gear, but it took far too long to complete and I'm not sure I want to risk completely wasting THAT much time for a chance at gear I won't even be wearing that long. ilevel ~375 is fine by me, especially when i390 gear will be easily accessible once the expansion launches for tomestones, just like the the i260 gear from Heavensward is now.

Otherwise just finishing up the Namazu reputation grind so I can complete the Stormblood Beast Tribe collaboration quest you can do once you have all of them to "Bloodsworn." Will have my Carpenter to 70 by the time the questing is over, which is nice.

[Faroth]

*snip*

That's the guy I referred to a while back that was kicked during an Alliance raid for pulling before groups were there, constantly spamming his macros, etc.

[Granyala]

Last I checked, DPS is the sole winning condition of the combat system. In order to clear an encounter you need to do DPS. Mechanics are mechanisms to PREVENT you from doing DPS. That means that it comes first and foremost. You do not clear an encounter for running the timer out or doing the dance perfectly.

Second boss in Bardams Mettle would like to have a word with you.

*ducks and runs for cover*

On a more constructive note: I managed to clear the ARR sightseeing log yesterday and snatch the adorable Apkallu pet.

[Dugna]

https://twitter.com/FF_XIV_EN/status...65410754359296

New commcerical for SHB that has Tom Holland and Hannibal Buress

[RohanV]

Ironically, I think we should adopt Yoshi-P's rule about parsers for this forum. Use it if you want, but don't talk about it. It would save us pages of pointless arguing.

[dope_danny]

https://twitter.com/FF_XIV_EN/status...65410754359296

New commcerical for SHB that has Tom Holland and Hannibal Buress

We've reached the "I'm william shatner, and i'm a tauren shaman" stage in the lifespan

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Ironically, I think we should adopt Yoshi-P's rule about parsers for this forum. Use it if you want, but don't talk about it. It would save us pages of pointless arguing.

Fuckin' wisdom.

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you don't even need a parser outside of savage. i can tell when the other dps is not doing AOE by their casts and what combos they're doing. also if the dungeon has gone more than 15-20 min someone is being a slacker.

[Faroth]

Soon players can just avoid the unwashed commoners they so despise by utilizing the Trust System.

Granted, Yoshida says it will take longer and isn't ideal, but hey, people keep saying AI is infinitely superior to the average roulette player, so there's your option.

Go, and never darken my towels again.

[Wrecktangle]

Blah, blah, blah.

Yes, I am the toxic one for wanting to kick players because of bullshit criteria you guys keep escalating each and everytime, because the original argument was baseless.
We have gone from "People who don't do enough DPS to clear a dungeon in 15mins or so" (the original reason), to "Oh, we need it to clear Savage/Extreme content, and if you;re AFK during a dungeon you need to be kicked!" (which literally no one is disagreeing with, yet somehow you think I am...).

The lot of you are just changing the goalposts each and every time, not even checking the original reason or arguments for my "toxic behaviour", and then just jerking yourselves into a frenzy, because you want to be correct. Usual MMO-C wankstain nonsense. You guys keep doing you

Since you deliberately ignored the parts where I corrected you, I'll assume that is your admission of agreement.

However, would you mind pointing out the original reason/argument you made? I would hate to be accused of moving the goal posts (to which I do not believe I did, but it's possible I missed the origin of this discussion) I could go back and look, but I would greatly prefer it if you could simply reiterate or point me to it. This will help remedy any future confusion in further discussions and dispel any misconceptions/miscommunications. I didn't want to assume the brief sentence above as the full picture.

Ironically, I think we should adopt Yoshi-P's rule about parsers for this forum. Use it if you want, but don't talk about it. It would save us pages of pointless arguing.

There's a surprisingly useful metric for talking about it here though. It lets me know who has the capability to have nuanced discussions and those who cannot. You may call it pointless, but I can personally attest that i've learned a significant amount about a lot of players from discussing it here. Things I might have overlooked in my analysis and concepts I had not been exposed to.

Second boss in Bardams Mettle would like to have a word with you.

Good point. I did forget about that one, despite it being like only one of two instances of it happening in the game (T3).

you don't even need a parser outside of savage. i can tell when the other dps is not doing AOE by their casts and what combos they're doing. also if the dungeon has gone more than 15-20 min someone is being a slacker.

I always liken it to a speedometer. I don't actually NEED a speedometer to drive a car. I have more than enough practice and I drive a manual so really I can rely on the tach if I needed too (based on both historical data, and defined gear ratios as a measure of targeted speed within a specific gear). Just like I don't need ACT to really tell if something is catastrophically wrong, but for more nuanced situations it helps identify when something is only a little/moderately wrong. I can do this because I have that same practice and experience in game.

However, if you're going to hold me accountable for my speed, I should have a tool to help me regulate and know my speed else I suffer consequences. You could argue that FF14 doesn't hold you accountable, it's more so the playerbase, but I still believe the analogy/point fits. It's an invisible agreement that we'll all abide by the rules so we're given the tools to do it safely and the tool allows us to estimate other peoples speed based on our own. Not much different than a parser, and when someone is egregiously out of line, we usually call attention to it in a negative manner (road rage, call police, etc.) to hopefully drive home that their behavior is out of line with expectations.

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Soon players can just avoid the unwashed commoners they so despise by utilizing the Trust System.

Granted, Yoshida says it will take longer and isn't ideal, but hey, people keep saying AI is infinitely superior to the average roulette player, so there's your option.

Go, and never darken my towels again.

Unmitigated AI sure is, but specifically dumbed down AI to not compromise the human element? Nah, even with my negative magnetism the worst outliers still border on Trust duty length (~35 mins), so I'm still much better off using the DF. I'm actually hoping players who hate grouping (and colloborating/trying) will stuck to Trusts bringing the avg DF skill level up a bit.

[Granyala]

Ironically, I think we should adopt Yoshi-P's rule about parsers for this forum. Use it if you want, but don't talk about it. It would save us pages of pointless arguing.

Sure looks like it.
It is pretty much pointless to argue with trolls like Howlrunner.

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Good point. I did forget about that one, despite it being like only one of two instances of it happening in the game (T3).

I quite like it, and would not mind to see more of it. Not excessively more but now and then the concept of just dancing is cool.

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Granted, Yoshida says it [the Trust System] will take longer and isn't ideal

Translation:
We cut the AIs balls off, gave it crap gear, so people still drag the slackers through because even with slackers, the dungeon will go faster.

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you don't even need a parser outside of savage. i can tell when the other dps is not doing AOE by their casts and what combos they're doing. also if the dungeon has gone more than 15-20 min someone is being a slacker.

You can tell the rough mistakes by eye, yup.
No AoE, no CDs, no positionals, celarly wrong cast rotation etc.

Stuff like poor DoT uptime is harder to track, esp from others b/c you can't watch them debuffs all the time.

You can't see the finer points that make or break a performance though. For that you need a parser and for that you also need to look deeper than the sole "DPS" number. Low DPS in a parser is merely an indicator that sth went wrong, the interesting part is the deeper log analysis to get to the cause of low DPS and fix it.

Keep in mind: that mostly applies to my OWN performance and is the reason why I always want the option of a parser.
Frankly put: the game doesn't give me enough organized data as a DPS to judge my performance properly. I hate the feeling of "flying blind" when I play DPS. I am a numerical person and I need math and numbers to feel comfortable b/c I do not trust my gut feeling.

[Katchii]

I quite like it, and would not mind to see more of it. Not excessively more but now and then the concept of just dancing is cool.

I really like it too. It's refreshing because it's different, and also helps drive the point home that mechanics matter. That particular fight showed a pretty good number of mechanics to watch and be mindful of that are prevalent in many encounters. Maybe if they added a fight like this that showed off other/ different mechanics likely to be seen in later dungeons or raids or something. That would be a pretty harmless way to get people introduced to newer mechanics.

I'd advocate though that "pass" on fights like this require more than 1 person to do so, otherwise people will simply continue to get carried consistently.

Translation:
We cut the AIs balls off, gave it crap gear, so people still drag the slackers through because even with slackers, the dungeon will go faster.

The dungeon itself, yes, but there's no queue time. If they made the AI option better than groups that would make most people just use the AI option which is something they don't want to support.

Yoshi-P made the point that it's a kind of time efficiency thing. If a player dungeon would take 15-20 minutes but you have a 15-20 queue time, that's 30-40 minutes for completing the dungeon. With the AI option it's instant queue and can take up to 30 minutes, so if there's any possibility your queue time + dungeon time could take more than 30 minutes, the AI option is competitive if not better.

I can say I'll be using the Trust my first time through the dungeons as I do the MSQ if only because I absolutely hate getting sidelined for 10+ minutes while I simply sit and wait for my queue to pop as a DPS doing the MSQ to progress through a story quest that has me just.wanting.to.keep.going.....if I have something else i could be/ want to be doing I'll go the normal DF route, otherwise as a DPS the Trust seems like a win to me.

I really don't see Healers and Tanks getting any use of the Trust system except maybe to see the banter between the NPCs or whatever, but I don't ever see the Trust system being more efficient for them vs the DF.

[Kaelwryn]

I can see why a tank or healer would use the trust system, in that you aren't going to have to deal with random players who are absolutely awful. I can see myself using it after a particularly bad run to like "cool off".

[Gibblewink]

The Trust system would also be a safe way to dip in to a role you are less comfortable with - After all I doubt they programmed the AI to grumble if you screw up horribly 5 or 6 times

[RohanV]

The Trust system would also be a safe way to dip in to a role you are less comfortable with - After all I doubt they programmed the AI to grumble if you screw up horribly 5 or 6 times

I don't know. I'm pretty sure Y'shtola would be the type to make some pointed comments.

[threads]

Sure looks like it.
It is pretty much pointless to argue with trolls like Howlrunner.

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I quite like it, and would not mind to see more of it. Not excessively more but now and then the concept of just dancing is cool.

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Translation:
We cut the AIs balls off, gave it crap gear, so people still drag the slackers through because even with slackers, the dungeon will go faster.

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You can tell the rough mistakes by eye, yup.
No AoE, no CDs, no positionals, celarly wrong cast rotation etc.

Stuff like poor DoT uptime is harder to track, esp from others b/c you can't watch them debuffs all the time.

You can't see the finer points that make or break a performance though. For that you need a parser and for that you also need to look deeper than the sole "DPS" number. Low DPS in a parser is merely an indicator that sth went wrong, the interesting part is the deeper log analysis to get to the cause of low DPS and fix it.

Keep in mind: that mostly applies to my OWN performance and is the reason why I always want the option of a parser.
Frankly put: the game doesn't give me enough organized data as a DPS to judge my performance properly. I hate the feeling of "flying blind" when I play DPS. I am a numerical person and I need math and numbers to feel comfortable b/c I do not trust my gut feeling.

oh yea i agree. for improvement parses/logs are huge. probably worded it badly but i was mainly saying i hardly even turn my parser on anymore outside of higher lvl content or learning a new class.

[Granyala]

I'd advocate though that "pass" on fights like this require more than 1 person to do so, otherwise people will simply continue to get carried consistently.

The dungeon itself, yes, but there's no queue time.

Careful what you wish for, it is very easy to make these encounters into a nightmare no one wants to attempt with randoms.

Yeah, that's the reason why I prefer tanking dungeons.
*click* -> invite -> boom.

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I can see why a tank or healer would use the trust system, in that you aren't going to have to deal with random players who are absolutely awful. I can see myself using it after a particularly bad run to like "cool off".

Ah come on, people aren't THAT bad.
I mean it's a dungeon and it gets completed no matter what.
Also, flawless groups are boring as a healer. Just throwing that out there.

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I don't know. I'm pretty sure Y'shtola would be the type to make some pointed comments.

I'd be disappointed if Shtola didn't.

That "little sun" comment made me laugh so hard.

[Graeham II]

I must be lucky, I don't have too many issues during roulettes.

Party finder? Now that's a different matter entirely...

In the event I do get a hopeless group (which is rare) I usually just kick a player if they're causing trouble or just eat the thirty minute penalty and do something else with my time.

[Kaelwryn]

Ah come on, people aren't THAT bad.
I mean it's a dungeon and it gets completed no matter what.
Also, flawless groups are boring as a healer. Just throwing that out there.

Yes there are groups that bad. When I, as an AST, am out dmging ALL THREE other party members in addition to the tank not being able to hold aggro off of me, I would rather not play with people shortly after that. Its a group I should've noped out of shortly after the first boss because it was a serious test of patience, but I'm stupid. :\

Like these groups do not happen that often, but when they do I need a break from them and being able to continue doing what i was doing with trusts is a nice option.