A world revamp? - Speculation and discussion, plus poll

[Wildmoon]

The revamp in Cata did not work because they put the majority of the resource into something irrelevnt aka levelling. If you are gonna revamp the world then freaking utilize what you put your resource into. The whole of the game must utilize the revamped world.

The only way this could work is if it's a reset, a new chapter in WoW aka a new vanilla WoW. You will start with only Kalimdor and EK because it's a new chapter.

[Prozach]

The revamp in Cata did not work because they put the majority of the resource into something irrelevnt aka levelling. If you are gonna revamp the world then freaking utilize what you put your resource into. The whole of the game must utilize the revamped world.

The only way this could work is if it's a reset, a new chapter in WoW aka a new vanilla WoW. You will start with only Kalimdor and EK because it's a new chapter.

Re-releasing classic is not introducing "a new chapter". It's releasing an old chapter. No one wants to experience the same story over and over and over again. This WoW 2 bullshit is so old. People who want a WoW 2 (aka, totally revamping the entire game and starting from scratch) should just find something else to play.

[vertigo12]

I think if a true level squish is to happen, as in making leveling faster not just dividing numbers in half, the old world needs a revamp.

Not a rebuild, but questlines need to be freshened up and the terrain needs to become consistent.

Perhaps the level squish is not exactly what they meant in reducing the level for 120 in half but rather... My suggestion of Scaling level? What do you think?

[Wildmoon]

Re-releasing classic is not introducing "a new chapter". It's releasing an old chapter. No one wants to experience the same story over and over and over again. This WoW 2 bullshit is so old. People who want a WoW 2 (aka, totally revamping the entire game and starting from scratch) should just find something else to play.

That's not what I meant. It will not be the same story. They will use the new assets to craft the new world state. It's just that it will start with Kalimdor and EK.

[DeicideUH]

1. Horde and Alliance should not be hostile: They can be cold towards each other, but having them be openly hostile, especially with having, say, the mag'har attack the Draenei, means the potential growth the Horde is going through this expansion is for nothing, if after a timeskip the Alliance gets even more grievances and reasons to distrust the Horde then it just becomes even more unbelievable that they gang together for the next big threat.

I didn't mean for the factions to be at war, only cold and distant. The Mag'har taking Myst Isles is due to some speculation on my part of what may happen still in BfA, not due to a conflict post-timeskip.

since the Mag'har have no legitimate grievances against the Draenei of Azeroth

Still, two of Overlord Geya'rah citations are:

"There are draenei on this world?
<Geya'rah narrows her eyes.>
Not for long."

"The Alliance embraces the draenei and their Lightforged kin.
That alone is reason to crush their cities to dust."

I get the vibe the mag'har are truly afraid/hateful of the draenei.

Like I said, I expect the taking of Myst Isles to happen in BfA (probably 8.2.5, as a warfront), with a chance of it being the catalyst for a Thrall/Geya'rah meeting. Of course, it's more wishful thinking than speculation, but I like that idea a lot.

Well. From the OP:

"First, I bet the new Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms won't be just the old maps revamped, but new files entirely. The old versions will keep existing and be accessible throught bronze dragons. Blizzard will have the freedom to rework zones entirely, even reshaping, removing, merging or dividing them. THis allows the company to go entirely wild with ideas, and will mean we will have to actually rediscover these lands (and towns and flight paths)."

There's also:

"Second, the leveling experience will be completely redone. The level squish is part of it, and will help the theme of a new beginning."

That's a boatload of work.

I mean, if you scale down the proposal to "keep the zones, update the visuals a little, redo the quests" this will get smaller and maybe you can scale it down enough so that it is no longer scary. But what's in the first post is big.

I meant "new files" in the sense that they'd copy/paste the old maps and work on top of the copied version, not start from scratch.
That would actually be less work than modifying the old versions, as any modifications would impact questlines from multiple expansions (like the many Legion stories happening in the old world) and need to pay attention to several phasing stages in different zones, as well as make way harder to integrate the TBC zones into the main continents.

By copying the maps then working on improving them, they cut corners while having more freedom to modify the maps as they please.

I also don't expect them to work on every corner of every zone. Vashj'ir, for instance, would probably just be copied and abandoned, with no questing there. Some areas of certain zones could be left to be improved in patches as well, or have sandbox content to fill them, with rares, treasures and other rewards instead of questlines. Also, low-level areas would have fewer (but still meaningful) questlines while relying on things like rares and bonus objectives to add ways of gaining XP.

Also, a lot of the assets for such a revamp have been provided by Blizzard over the last few years. We have new models for a lot of old world creatures, as well as buildings for humans, orcs, night elves, draenei and others.

And the team is now way larger than back in Cataclysm. For all we know, Blizzard may have been working on this project for years. They did say they plan three or four expansions ahead or something like that.

A world revamp done today would be a thousand times better than in Cataclysm, essentially because of scaling, world quests, and the ability to make the old zones relevant to max level.

I really hope it will happen for 9.0, and if not then for 10.0 (which would be a fresh start considering the patch number).

Exactly! Cataclysm lacked the systems to make the whole world relevant. It had most of its work done on zones that were already outleveled by prepatch. A new revamp would make the whole world meaningful even at max level.

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The only way this can be done properly is if they do this:

Move legacy expansions (TBC>BFA) into optional leveling content.
Make it so you can just do the revamped kalimdor/EK before jumping into the just-released expansion.

I did covered both of that in the OP.

[Luxeley]

It's truly what WOW has desperately since the end of WOD I'd argue. Blizzard will not erase all in-game shoppe purchases, mounts, xmogs from old tiers and achievements, let alone your character of which some people have played for more than a decade. That's not happening, something in the lines of a Gw2 kind of construct isn't happening in WOW even though it's desperately needed. Leveling needs to be relevant again and treking through decade old content just isn't fun. Some kind of revamp of the old world makes incredible sense, therefore: it's NOT HAPPENING. It's not happening because it's a good idea and Blizzard has been bereft of good ideas since WOTLK (w/few exceptions here and there). It's NOT HAPPENING because the resources (time and $$$) involved in doing this sort thing will be astronomical. Seriously, when is the last time Blizzard put serious $$$ into developing an xpac for WOW, including patches - WOTLK maybe?

You present a strong argument. I am 100% convinced WOW II is needed, I've been convinced of this for the last 3 years or so. The question is - does Blizzard realize this necessity? And the answer for me is NO. I just don't have enough faith in the WOW dev team and what little faith I do possess tells me - if WOW II does actually happen, it happens too late, maybe 2022 or 2024. Whenever Blizzard implements change, it is always a very very very very slow methodical change, like a big ship making a turn into an iceberg.

[Prozach]

I never understood the whole "leveling needs to be relevant again" thing. People say that all of the time and then try to rush through it as quickly as possible. When's the last time anyone read quest detail here? They could redo the entirely leveling experience and people would still want to hit end game as quickly as possible. Especially the second and third times through. Hell, if anything, leveling needs to NOT be relevant anymore, just give people near-max level characters so they can hurry up and play the damn game.

WoW 2 is not going to happen. Ever. It would totally fuck the franchise up trying to 'reinvent' it in some way. And, no matter how much bitching I see on here, everyone loves the game just the way it is or they wouldn't be playing it. I can guarantee you that for every one poster saying how Blizzard needs to "get their shit together", there are a thousand happily playing the game.

Seriously, when is the last time Blizzard put serious $$$ into developing an xpac for WOW, including patches - WOTLK maybe?

You're really talking out of your ass here. You have no idea how much a development cycle costs and, considering the reception of Legion, which was arguably the second best xpac of the game, I'm guessing they put just as much into game development now as they ever did.

[DeicideUH]

I never understood the whole "leveling needs to be relevant again" thing. People say that all of the time and then try to rush through it as quickly as possible. When's the last time anyone read quest detail here? They could redo the entirely leveling experience and people would still want to hit end game as quickly as possible. Especially the second and third times through. Hell, if anything, leveling needs to NOT be relevant anymore, just give people near-max level characters so they can hurry up and play the damn game.

Leveling is part of the game, and some of the reasons people try to skip it as much as possible are that the experience is all broken. Too many level, too many disjointed storylines, too repetitive, too much work for so little reward. It's more like a tax to begin playing than a real part of the game. And that's exactly why it needs a real fix, not a band-aid.

The ideas in the OP make leveling faster and renew the experience. With the level squish and promised class unprune, leveling can become interesting again, at least for a few years. At some point it will need to be revamped again.

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Despite the low sample for the poll, it's interesting that over 80% of voters would like to see a revamp.

I really hope it comes true in 9.0. The game is sorely needing it.

[SleepyGary]

If they really are planning a level squish, and those levels are all obtainable in Vanilla, (i.e. the cap goes back to 60 before moving to the newest expansion) now would be the perfect time for a revamp. The trick is to avoid time sensitive questing. As in, were not in the midst of a cataclysm, or the legion isnt currently invading, etc. Just general but meaningful adventuring, content will not become dated as quickly. The expansions could still be optional. They would still provide experience for the last 10 levels or so. Everyone wins.

[DeicideUH]

If they really are planning a level squish, and those levels are all obtainable in Vanilla, (i.e. the cap goes back to 60 before moving to the newest expansion) now would be the perfect time for a revamp. The trick is to avoid time sensitive questing. As in, were not in the midst of a cataclysm, or the legion isnt currently invading, etc. Just general but meaningful adventuring, content will not become dated as quickly. The expansions could still be optional. They would still provide experience for the last 10 levels or so. Everyone wins.

Yes!

The revamp stories should be exploring the world and the races, show how they adapted after so many changes over the years, see what plagues their lands. It should have a sense of wonder and discovery.

Of course, you can have some time-sensitive questlines, but it would be better to leave them for higher content, like campaigns you unlock at max level or highest level zones.

[SirCowdog]

some of the reasons people try to skip it as much as possible are that the experience is all broken.

I'd say it's less that, and more that Blizzard is only really developing and spending time on the most recent patch. Look at how even the content in BfA before 8.2 is more or less nullified by the release of benthic gear and the new season of M+ and LFR. There's almost no point in spending time on the launch content because the content and gear delivered by 8.2 is the focus.

Squishing or re-mastering the process from 1 to cap won't make much impact in that regard. And until Blizzard starts designing for the entire world instead of just the most recent patch, that won't change.

[Prozach]

Yes!

The revamp stories should be exploring the world and the races, show how they adapted after so many changes over the years, see what plagues their lands. It should have a sense of wonder and discovery.

Of course, you can have some time-sensitive questlines, but it would be better to leave them for higher content, like campaigns you unlock at max level or highest level zones.

Everyone HATED the Cata revamp. It's universally considered a horrible misuse of resources and he reason why the expansion sucked so badly. Also, the first expansion where people said the game started to go downhill. Why would it suddenly be a GOOD idea to do the same thing? Repeat history, short-change your end game (again), to make people level through what is essentially the same content again?

The push for a revamp in Cata was arguably an attempt to get even more players interested in the game by improving the leveling experience. Making it more efficient and generally more enjoyable. 15 years after release, this game isn't surviving on a steady influx of new players, it's relying on the people who have been playing for the last decade. No one cares whether 1-90 or whatever "make sense" anymore during the leveling experience because WE ALL KNOW THE STORY. Experiencing it as a newly rolled toon is going to make it different/better how?

Of course the numbers in favor of a revamp are high. It's in the title and anyone who would like to see it is going to hop in here and say so. I'm putting these people in the same crowd as the classic server folks, who think 1-60 is going to be a magical, nostalgic experience. And then quit 2 months in because that actual oldschool leveling experience was nothing like they remember it. Just like people are magically forgetting in this thread how awful Cata was, again, MOSTLY because so many resources went into content that no one cared to revisit.

We want another xpac like Legion. It was done well for the first time in years and I don't want them splitting up a team capable of producing another xpac that good so that a few knuckle heads can play in Swamp of Sorrows again for two hours. Btw, this "WoW 2" shit is nothing new. People have speculated about this grand remastering of the game for 10 years now. It's not going to happen. Lots of people are still playing and paying. And it would be catastrophic to make most of the changes required to reboot the game. That's what classic is for; to get people to go shut up and play Vanilla if they want to and keep people who want the story to progress happy as well.

It's never enough for the WoW bitchers and whiners. No matter what is provided, the fan fiction/reddit/user suggestion crowd thinks they can make this way better concept of WoW that sounds like a 10 year old came up with it. A 10 year old who has zero knowledge about game development processes.

[DeicideUH]

Everyone HATED the Cata revamp.

You are not "everyone", you don't speak for "everyone". The revamp was pretty well-received. The problem with Cata was in the end-game content, not the revamp itself.

It's never enough for the WoW bitchers and whiners

Funny that, since there's only one "bitcher and whiner" here.

[Musta]

Actually in cataclysm only the endgame was bad, the revamp per se was really good.

[DeicideUH]

Actually in cataclysm only the endgame was bad, the revamp per se was really good.

Yes. ANd with the tech WoW has today, like scaling and world quests, the revamped areas could easily be used for endgame content. Also, unlike Cataclysm, in which most zones were just for leveling, a new revamp coupled with a level squish could speed up the leveling process and reserve way more areas for high level play.

[Prozach]

You are not "everyone", you don't speak for "everyone". The revamp was pretty well-received. The problem with Cata was in the end-game content, not the revamp itself.

And everyone understood that, to have a revamp, end game had to suffer. You can't have both. And asking for the same thing again is going to provide similar results/a similarly bad expansion overall.

You're right, I'm not 'everyone', I just don't know a single person who enjoyed leveling through old content again, regardless of the changes that were made. And I don't know anyone who DID level through and said "Yeah, let's go back and do that AGAIN!" A poll created by the same people I see frequenting and praising the classic server forum like it's the second coming or something isn't going to convince me that a large contingency of the user base really wants Blizzard to focus half (at least) of their efforts redoing old zones...again.

Go play Vanilla. Your earlier zones will be relevant again and it'll effectively be WoW 2.0. Then you can wait for the inevitable BC servers and play that game again too. Some day, you'll be all growned up and ready for the story to progress. These post read like people who loved some old book and think changing the cover art and shade of paper will make the story better than it was before.

EDIT: Your original post ideas are still ridiculous. Like I said, it all reads like a 10 year old's fan fiction by someone who has no idea the tremendous undertaking required to make these sweeping changes to the game.

[SleepyGary]

But you dont need a revamp to the extent of Cataclysm, so it requires far less resources. The world isnt being torn in half this time. They dont need to create nearly as much new terrain. They just update the story a bit, make it more fluid, fix a few things here and there. Add some fun new quests, take Garrosh out of Stonetalon Mountains, etc.

And honestly, it's the least they can do. They want to encourage people to quest, because its a good time sink to keep subscribers. Thats why they added the requirment to heritage armor. So if they're going to try to push us into spending time questing, they could at least make the questing fun and engaging.

And side note, not everyone hated the revamp. I enjoyed it. And I don't consider it a waste of resources. So, it's hardly universal.

[Seylene]

I mean could be fun but, Durotar or Mulgore needs to be the big 3 way fight with Ashenvale being the unapproachable heartland of the NEs. Cause if everything is going to be revamped we will damn sure sort that fight out for good!

I actually have never heard the idea of world remapping to create the WoW2 aspect and think thats a very cute idea! I don't know logistics or anything behind it but a solid idea. The Cata revamp sucked so bad because most zones/stories had no clear ending especially on Alliance side with Ashenvale and Westfall being actively in the midst of assault even when you finished them it was very jarring and annoying.

[Musta]

Yes. ANd with the tech WoW has today, like scaling and world quests, the revamped areas could easily be used for endgame content. Also, unlike Cataclysm, in which most zones were just for leveling, a new revamp coupled with a level squish could speed up the leveling process and reserve way more areas for high level play.

That would be great.

[Lei]

But you dont need a revamp to the extent of Cataclysm, so it requires far less resources. The world isnt being torn in half this time. They dont need to create nearly as much new terrain. They just update the story a bit, make it more fluid, fix a few things here and there. Add some fun new quests, take Garrosh out of Stonetalon Mountains, etc.

No offense but have you been out in EK/Kalimdor recently? Are you playing the game on a toaster that needs pixelated graphics to be able to maintain some fps?
Please, please for the love of god, turn your graphics to ultra with a 23"+ screen, and go out and go a round in Burning Steppes, Searing Gorge, Blasted Lands, Badlans just to name a few and record it. Then go a round in any mop+ zones. Now play the videos side by side if you need to. If you can't see the shocking difference, you might as well call Call of Duty 2 a beautiful modern game.

Cataclysm revamp was shit in a sense that it wasn't a revamp really. And they ran out of time so it's not even finished. Especially since many of the quests remained the same in 20+ zones. Yes, Silverpine forest, yes Azshara, yes, Westfall, some of the Barrens, Stonetalon. But (old) 20+ zones are wastly the same. The same 15 year old, now outdated graphics, outdated terrains, outdated "thinking" and execution in layout.

Burning Steppes, Searing Gorge both of them is probably heavily inspired by LotR Mordor. But then compare them to Antoran Wastes (the closest I can think of)
Blasted Lands, Badlands, I don't even know what are these, deserts? Compare them to even Uldum, or Vol'dun. Not to mention how "samezone-y" are these with just slightly different color. BOOOOORING. They are empty. There's nothing on the ground that is almost completely flat, there are some rocks that emerge from the ground and they are totally bald. The hills surrounding the zones are bald.

They definetly have to recreate the foliage, the layout, buildings, terrain, mobs that weren't updated, even the zone serparating hills that were mere backdrops before cataclysm are for one totally useless, ugly and should be completely redone. Which is basically back to square one situation. It is a HUGE work.