Netherlands: MH17 missile owned by Russian brigade, investigators say

[Independent voter]

The Netherlands was the biggest victim, and since their global power in negligible they have little to no interest in propaganda as it’ll serve them little.

The first information that came to light after the attack was separatists cheering for taking down a Ukrainian military transport plane, soon after they realized it was a passenger plane and all the tweets etc got removed. Yet not fast enough.

From my perpective it looks like Russia/separatists made a mistake and took down the wrong plane, which had it been a Ukrainian plane would have massively benefited them. Yet when you make a grave error in a situation like this it can often come to the benefit of your enemy. So saying Ukraine is at fault because they benefited (let’s be real though, they haven’t really as they still don’t have control over their territory) is only plausible in a world were Russia isn’t known for its massive amount of botched military operations.

IIRC the Russian backed rebel forces claimed responsibility for shooting down a plane in a tweet the day of the attack but then deleted it immediately after realizing it was a civilian plane.

These are the photos of the accused.

Australia 27
Belgium 4
Canada[c] 1
Germany[d] 4
Indonesia 12
Malaysia[e] 43
Netherlands[f] 193
New Zealand 1
Philippines 3
United Kingdom[g] 10
Total 298

https://news.sky.com/story/mh17-cras...plane-11744648


I don't think it was a mistake by the Russian separatists in Ukraine.

America and EU put sanctions on Russia. March/April 2014 over the Crimea annexation.

MH17 shot down by Russians July 2014


The plane was shot down in retaliation for sanctions. I don't think Putin ordered it; I think these guys wanted to curry favor with Putin.

[Skroe]

The plane was shot down in retaliation for sanctions. I don't think Putin ordered it; I think these guys wanted to curry favor with Putin.

I think it's something quite different. This goes back to the very start of the faux-separatist movement in Eastern Ukraine.

The Ukrainian Air Force, in early 2014, had a meaningful amount of air power and helicopters. The army had troops in armored fighting vehicles that had fought in Afghanistan as part of the US coalition. If Ukraine could deploy it's air and ground forces in conjunction, the faux-separatists wouldn't stand a chance. Particularly just because of air power. Ukraine could have bombed the separatists, and the separatists would not be able to respond.

One of the very first things Russia did was attempt to ground the Ukrainian Air Force. In the days and weeks prior to MH17, Russia, on behalf of the rebels, started to utilize ground vehicles and MANPADs to shoot down Ukrainian air craft. In fact, just one month prior to MH17, on June 14th 2014, Russia shot down a Ukrainian Air Force Il-76, a large cargo aircraft. 49 troops were killed.

By making it unsafe for Ukraine to fly even cargo aircraft, much less close air support, into Eastern Ukraine, it made the war the rebels were fighting much more fair.

What I think happened is relatively simple. I think the downing of MH17 was a mistake. Russian troops are poorly trained, and if a separatist was at the controls, he would have had next to no training. A civilian jetliner and a cargo aircraft would look fairly similar on radar.

I think they shot down MH17 thinking it was another Ukrainian cargo aircraft.

Russia maliciously shooting down MH17 doesn't make any sense. It was a diplomatic and economic disaster for them. It started five years of sanctions (and counting). And a Kremlin-centric ordering of it being downed is even less likely. Putin simply would not have that fine level of control over his forces operating in the front.

The most likely reason is sheer incompetence. Idiot, badly trained controller saw on radar something that looked like a cargo aircraft. Idiot fired.

This was my original theory shortly after it happened, and really the driving motivator is that Russia wanted to keep the Ukranian Air Force grounded, which means pre-dating MH17, anything flying into Eastern Ukraine was likely to be assumed to be a Ukrainian Air Force aircraft.

[Ihavewaffles]

The plane was shot down in retaliation for sanctions. I don't think Putin ordered it; I think these guys wanted to curry favor with Putin

You..are being serious? I mean this is reality, not some sunday morning cartoon..

Ukraine that was killing its own citizens cuz they resisted anti-democratic maidan coup, certainly would kill foreign citizens when they have no problems killing their own, especially since western msm automatically side with whomever west is allied with. In this case Ukraine's illegal un-constitutional government. Before plane not everyone in eu was for giving Ukraine monies n support. Ukraine certainly benefited.

Now, if rebels did it, it would be because Ukraine was transporting arms in civilian planes, plus were indiscriminately bombing civilians. So, flying over a war-zone isn't exactly smart, n it certainly isn't intentional to whack out of the sky random foreign civilians. There is no international benefit for their side.
At worst it's a fuck up.
What if Americans had shot down a civilian plane (they actually have) would anyone talk about punishing entire US, n sanctions?

Plane was just excuse to drive through more sanctions.

I'm sad that with the right-wing eu election victories, we could see end of sanctions..Russia needs to focus their economy away from west, it makes them stronger being less dependent. China became Russia's biggest trading partner with 100 B $, will go up to 200+ soon, n there's other markets rising.

[Independent voter]

The plane was shot down accidentally by incompetent separatist forces with weapons provided by Russia.

Well, Putin should give up these 4 guys to the Netherlands for a trial. I trust the Netherlands to give them a fair trial.

Then we'll see.

[Puupi]

Well, Putin should give up these 4 guys to the Netherlands for a trial. I trust the Netherlands to give them a fair trial.

Then we'll see.

Yeah right. If Putin betrays those guys then MH17 is probably least of his problems.

He needs to 'eradicate' them as quickly as possible.

[Ihavewaffles]

Well, Putin should give up these 4 guys to the Netherlands for a trial. I trust the Netherlands to give them a fair trial.

Then we'll see.

If ur victim of a crime, u should be judge jury n executioner?

I have no faith in any side that excludes suspects (Ukraine) cuz they are West's allies.

Besides, if the rebels did it, a mistake shouldn't weigh from a western court that fucking supported maidan, illegal coup. Let me know when artitects behind bloody maidan in west n ukraine FACE JUSTICE before u come here try to pose as anything. Your courts can go fuck themselves.

U whine n moan about Trump, Muller report says Russia not to blame, but sinking democracy in ukraine, no problem.. criminals who illegally seized power faced resistance ur side supported war that killed 10k people. Some foreign civvies dead are a drop in the ocean...1 million+ refugees.

Western "justice" is a fucking joke.

[Machismo]

So what about the US drone that just got shot down?

I can tell you right now, I bet it was funded by the Saudis and perpetrated by Iran. All to bolster selling oil in UAE and Saudi oil areas. Them places are HURTING bad for money because, their oil is in through the floor as for price is concerned. Meanwhile the US is like LAWLS to the world with oil production.

Middle East trying to drag the US into another war over oil to bolster Oil prices in the Gulf region again.

How about this, Stop imports of all Middle east oil and build renewables completely. Boom, their economy would collapse until Russia could try to fill the void. We don't need no stinkin oil. lol

Why would the Saudis be helping to fund their regional enemy?

[Easo]

Malyasian prime minister says he's still waiting for evidence.

What do u think black box said? Pilots saw a missile with a picture of the guy who fired it n his name on it?

First time I hear that claim. Provide me a source of that. Malaysians got the black boxes, they are the owners of the plane, as the airline is owned by Malaysia itself. What is the chance they let it go and did not get the information?! Zero?

Black box said a lot of interesting things, like microphones being cut off one by one within miliseconds, which allowed to determine the approximate way the missile struck the airplane. You would know that if you had actually read that BBC article.
And it is not like the cockpit crew bodies were not full of the penetrators, plus the whole cockpit was perforated with them. It does not take a genius to figure things out, find remains of the missile and determine what it was and then draw conclusions who exactly could have fired such a missile.

The plane was shot down accidentally by incompetent separatist forces with weapons provided by Russia.

I think at this point this is the almost guaranteed version of what happened (and realistically always was...). Rebels fucked up and then tried to hide it, weapon itself was provided by Russia.

[Galactis]

The Saudis have been known responsible for bombing places in the US. 9/11, IT's for power and money. Saudi's have been secretly behind regional conflict for decades.

Yeah we fund the Saudi's and give them weapons, they've been caught sabotaging the US. MULTIPLE TIMES.

[Ihavewaffles]

First time I hear that claim. Provide me a source of that.

No problemo,
https://www.freemalaysiatoday.com/ca...hot-down-mh17/

Malaysia wants evidence to show Russia shot down MH17

Bernama - May 31, 2019 12:00 AM

TOKYO: The Malaysian government wants strong evidence to show that Russia is responsible for the Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 tragedy in 2014, said Prime Minister Dr Mahathir Mohamad today.

He said Malaysia accepted the investigation report of Holland but only up to the point where the plane was brought down by a missile made by Russia.

Mahathir said while the government agreed that the plane was brought down by a Russian missile, it cannot be certain that the missile was launched by Russia.

“They are accusing Russia but where is the evidence? We know the missile that brought down the plane is a Russian-type missile, but it could also be made in Ukraine.

“You need strong evidence to show it was fired by the Russians.

“It could be by the rebels in Ukraine; it could be Ukrainian government because they too have the same missile,” he said during a dialogue and media conference with the Japanese Foreign Correspondents Club (FCCJ) here today.

Mahathir said people of Russia are military people and they would know that MH17 is a passenger plane.

“I don’t think a very highly disciplined party is responsible for launching the missile,” he said.

The prime minister said Malaysia should also be involved in examining the black box as the plane belongs to Malaysia and there were Malaysian passengers.

“We may not have the expertise but we can buy the expertise. For some reason, Malaysia was not allowed to check the black box to see what happened.

“We don’t know why we are excluded from the examination but from the very beginning, we see too much politics in it.

“The idea was not to find out how this happened but seems to be concentrated on trying to pin it on the Russians. This is not a neutral kind of examination,” said Mahathir.

“Had a neutral party examined and made the conclusion, Malaysia is willing to accept the findings but here we have parties with political interests in the matter,” he added.

Flight MH17, which departed from Schiphol Airport, Amsterdam, on its way to Kuala Lumpur, was shot before crashing near Torez in Donetsk Oblast, Ukraine, about 40km from the Russian border on July 17, 2014.

The incident killed 298 people, including 15 crew members

The Dutch-led Joint Investigation Team (JIT) said the team was convinced that a BUK Telar missile was used to down MH17, and that it originated from the 53rd Anti-Aircraft Missile Brigade (53rd Brigade), which is a unit of the Russian army in Kursk in the Russian Federation.

[The Scourge of Azuremyst]

...
I think they shot down MH17 thinking it was another Ukrainian cargo aircraft.

Russia maliciously shooting down MH17 doesn't make any sense. It was a diplomatic and economic disaster for them. It started five years of sanctions (and counting). And a Kremlin-centric ordering of it being downed is even less likely. Putin simply would not have that fine level of control over his forces operating in the front.

The most likely reason is sheer incompetence. Idiot, badly trained controller saw on radar something that looked like a cargo aircraft. Idiot fired.

What's the point of putting sanctions on Russia then? If Kremlin and Putin can't even control it, then sanctions won't do anything.
What should have been done instead, was sending a fleet of B2's to flatten all of Luhansk and Donetsk, causing the separatists to think twice before firing a missile ever again.

[Ihavewaffles]

What's the point of putting sanctions on Russia then? If Kremlin and Putin can't even control it, then sanctions won't do anything.
What should have been done instead, was sending a fleet of B2's to flatten all of Luhansk and Donetsk, causing the separatists to think twice before firing a missile ever again.

You might as well, it's not like west gives two shits about the civilians there, 10k n counting, it would be honest what you guys are.

[The Scourge of Azuremyst]

You might as well, it's not like west gives two shits about the civilians there, 10k n counting, it would be honest what you guys are.

Says the one who bombs Syrian hospitals and schools. You guys are considered a rouge state for a reason.

[Ihavewaffles]

Russia bombs terrorists, and protects the innocent.

Now, go give another Oscar to white helmets whose members are al qaida, that freely could move in al nusra territory n on multiple occasions performed jihadi war crimes.

[Easo]

No problemo,

I am pretty sure the official investigation comittee is not saying that the Russia shot it down, but that the weapon was Russian. Which goes together with the whole rebels fucked up and shot it down thing. And I find those comments strange, since the Malaysia is in the investigation, has always been, they hardly cannot not know what was on the black box. And if they cannot really check it themselves, as he said - then what is the point of asking?

Edit:
Ahh, this explains a lot:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48702115
Especially the part about the stuff Malaysia needs from Russia. Or the 93 year old fart in the charge...

[Ihavewaffles]

I am pretty sure the official investigation comittee is not saying that the Russia shot it down, but that the weapon was Russian. Which goes together with the whole rebels fucked up and shot it down thing. And I find those comments strange, since the Malaysia is in the investigation, has always been, they hardly cannot not know what was on the black box. And if they cannot really check it themselves, as he said - then what is the point of asking?

No, the weapon was Soviet, meaning all ex-Soviet states could have deploy the weapon, which means both maidan coup-government or rebels could deploy from Ukraine's stockpile.

Well, the PM said his country could acquire the expertise to check the box, but that they have been ignored on the matter.

[Easo]

No, the weapon was Soviet, meaning all ex-Soviet states could have deploy the weapon, which means both maidan coup-government or rebels could deploy from Ukraine's stockpile.

Well, the PM said his country could acquire the expertise to check the box, but that they have been ignored on the matter.

Except that the Buk made quite the journey from Russia as evidenced by the Bellingcat and no, not all missiles in use are operated by all Buk operators. Plus, there is no reason for Ukraine to even have the AA there, as the rebels did not have airforce, while the rebels had a use for them and used them.
Unless... conspiracy theories.

Oh really? They have been ignored by those capable of training them? Total bullcrap, unless you believe in conspiracy theories, again. Plus the Malaysia somehow is still investingating this together with others, instead of, you know, stopping it because the PM said that the results are wrong and politicised, thus useless.

[Ihavewaffles]

Except that the Buk made quite the journey from Russia as evidenced by the Bellingcat

Bellingcat is a joke dude...and the buk in question (old) isn't even in Russia's inventory.

and no, not all missiles in use are operated by all Buk operators. Plus, there is no reason for Ukraine to even have the AA there, as the rebels did not have airforce, while the rebels had a use for them and used them.

There is a reason, in case Russia would ride in to the rescue like they did in Georgia.

Oh really? They have been ignored by those capable of training them? Total bullcrap, unless you believe in conspiracy theories, again.

Dude, the prime minister of Malaysia said so.

the PM said that the results are wrong and politicised, thus useless.

He does say this whole deal is politicized, that Russia was blamed before any evidence. He doesn't like this un-orthodox procedure..there is a correct professional way to handle this, if only west could stick to it..

[Easo]

Bellingcat is a joke dude...and the buk in question (old) isn't even in Russia's inventory.

There is a reason, in case Russia would ride in to the rescue like they did in Georgia.

Dude, the prime minister of Malaysia said so.

He does say this whole deal is politicized, that Russia was blamed before any evidence. He doesn't like this un-orthodox procedure..there is a correct professional way to handle this, if only west could stick to it..

What do you mean is not in their inventory? Russia have Buks. And Bellingcat are joke, why, exactly? Did you even see their investigation results and how they were achieved? That is a stupidly high and detailed amount of work for a joke...

Right, so they shot down an airliner coming from their back lines? How does that work? It would be too stupid even for rebels.

Did the investigation comitee say that the Russia shot down the plane? Or that the Russian weapon is involved? That already is a difference. Once more, he said comments appropriate for someone who needs Russian help.

[Kellhound]

The missile being a 'Buk' missile, or commonly known as an SA-6 Gainful, says to me that you better have footage of the launching if you want any credibility. SA-6 systems are not exactly rare, especially in territories of the old Soviet Union. If you don't have the footage of who actually launched it, then there really is no proof.

I'm not defending the Russians, or accusing the Russians in this case, but trying to hang it on the Russians by saying 'but it was a Buk missile!' is pretty damned flimsy. Could it have been them? Sure. It could easily have been someone Ukrainian, too. We just don't know. Too many SA-6 launchers lying around after the end of the Cold War and the breakup of the USSR.

The SAM is question is a SA-11, not a SA-6.