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  1. #521
    Quote Originally Posted by Myobi View Post
    … and why not both?

    I mean: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46286945

    I don’t think that’s entirely on the loot boxes, but I think that saying it’s just a big ass coincidence wouldn’t be entirely reasonable either.
    Are you from the UK? There was a deregulation of high-street gambling machines in that time and there's also been a massive advertising push showing how cool and awesome it is to gamble. All they're saying about loot-boxes in that article is that kids have been exposed to them, and I'm skeptical of that sort of connection ever since Mortal Kombat failed to turn me into a blood-thirsty psycopath, even with the blood turned on.

    Oh, and I don’t blame you for thinking that, it’s the sort of can of worms that no one really knows how deep it will go once open… what’s funny is that, all of what’s going on with it, shouldn’t be needed, there are already systems in place to deal with this sort of shit:

    https://pegi.info/


    If just simulations of gambling can lead to +18 ratings, why isn’t this sort of stuff impacting the video games ratings?
    Well it looks like you can simulate gambling in games as low as PEGI 12 and I think for it to apply the game has to show a pretty close approximation to actual games you see in casinos etc. Loot-boxes are a different thing entirely.

    What PEGI (and the ESRB) should have done is make a new warning category for games that use micro-transactions and luck-based microtransactions so adults are able to easily see if they will be expected to spend more cash after the initial purchase and if their children will be exposed to games of chance. What ever happens now the blame should be taken fully by the self-regulating boards of the industry for failing to respond to consumer concerns.

    Edit: (kindof, I didn't actually post yet,) it seems the PEGI board does have a section for in-game purchases but it doesn't say if they're chance-based or not.

  2. #522
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    What PEGI (and the ESRB) should have done is make a new warning category for games that use micro-transactions and luck-based microtransactions so adults are able to easily see if they will be expected to spend more cash after the initial purchase and if their children will be exposed to games of chance. What ever happens now the blame should be taken fully by the self-regulating boards of the industry for failing to respond to consumer concerns.

    Edit: (kindof, I didn't actually post yet,) it seems the PEGI board does have a section for in-game purchases but it doesn't say if they're chance-based or not.
    I think both PSN and XBL(maybe steam as well? dunno haven't bought anything on steam in a very long time) already put "has in game purchases" on the store page now to cover themselves but this really needs to be put on game boxes as well. And yea, they should probably specify if they are 1 time purchases or luck based ones.

  3. #523
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    By making the games require you to be 18+ to buy them due to them having gambling in them.

    You act like kids stealing parents credit cards is the only way they can buy these things, They can also just buy currency cards at any local store. Go to the source, Label the games M or AO. The ESRB needs to do their job and if they won't then sadly government needs to step in and make them.
    I'm fine with stuff like that but they we'll just find ways around it and loot boxes in direct buy games can get you a deal from time to time.
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  4. #524
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Is there proof that loot-boxes in games like FIFA and Fortnite lead to gambling problems? The commission saw evidence that watching e-sports and 3rd-party sites like the ones Valve allowed are risks for young people starting to gamble.
    Numbers out of UK put instances of kids being admitted to counseling for gambling addiction had quadrupled over the last 2 years.

  5. #525
    Quote Originally Posted by stellvia View Post
    Numbers out of UK put instances of kids being admitted to counseling for gambling addiction had quadrupled over the last 2 years.
    Ah bullshit, kids don't have access to gambling.

  6. #526
    Quote Originally Posted by Bixxie View Post
    Ah bullshit, kids don't have access to gambling.
    Putting your fingers in your ears and going "nope your wrong" is a 9 year old's argument...

    Loot Box's is gambling that's a fact, Its a game of chance and costs you money. You can scream "nope" all you want but that's what it is.

    Not surprised at your posts honestly since your a new account with 20 (likely all in this thread). So this will be my last one to you, its clear your not looking for a debate you just want to scream no over and over.
    Last edited by Jtbrig7390; 2019-06-23 at 08:57 AM.
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  7. #527
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    Loot Box's is gambling that's a fact
    hahahaha no

    Sure if you define lootboxes as gambling, then kids have access to gambling. Wow, great logic. If I define a man wearing a dress as a woman, then I'm not gay if I suck his dick.

    Lootboxes aren't gambling, not anymore than a TCG is. Or fucking sticker albums. I guess we were all addicted to gambling as kids, even before video games.

    Ban sticker albums.
    Last edited by Keeper Stalladris; 2019-06-23 at 08:58 AM.

  8. #528
    Quote Originally Posted by Bixxie View Post
    Ban sticker albums.
    Ok. let me call my senator and we'll have the bill on the floor in 3 months establishing all trade be regulated so that all randomized products are made illegal.

    the funny part is, you'll think I'm joking.

  9. #529
    Quote Originally Posted by Malikath View Post
    Ok. let me call my senator and we'll have the bill on the floor in 3 months establishing all trade be regulated so that all randomized products are made illegal.

    the funny part is, you'll think I'm joking.
    Go ahead and do it.

  10. #530
    Quote Originally Posted by Bixxie View Post
    Go ahead and do it.
    Ok, you know what's funny? many thought trump becoming president was a joke 4 years ago.
    then it happened, and it became hilarious while they became the joke.

    meanwhile people think that the democrats have a chance to win in 2020, not while they're progressive stacking their only viable candidate into the trash just like last time.

  11. #531
    Quote Originally Posted by Malikath View Post
    Ok, you know what's funny? many thought trump becoming president was a joke 4 years ago.
    then it happened, and it became hilarious while they became the joke.

    meanwhile people think that the democrats have a chance to win in 2020, not while they're progressive stacking their only viable candidate into the trash just like last time.
    I really don't get your point.

    If a product that you buy is considered gambling, when the contents that you get are determined randomly, then things like sticker albums and TCGs are just as much gambling as the lootboxes you have such a problem with.

    So do you consider sticker albums and TCGs to be gambling? Should they be illegal? If not, then what is the difference to lootboxes in videogames?
    Last edited by Keeper Stalladris; 2019-06-23 at 09:36 AM.

  12. #532
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    People seem to be taking a weird stand about this idea. Noone really denies that loot boxes are a shitty mechanic. And most people accept that its probably not great for kids. But then things get bogged down in a debate about what exactly constitutes gambling. I feel like that is missing the point, if it can be proven that these systems are training kids to respond like gamblers, and/or is impacting the rates of gambling in youth.. then yeah it should be regulated.

    I think it is crappy and predatory, but there are hundreds of crappy predatory business practices about. But really think about this one. It is a system that grown ass adults can't work out is actually gambling, and recognize is a shitty money sink mechanic. If it is targeted at kids, that is shittier still, and should probably be regulated.
    Either way you look at it, it should probably be regulated.

  13. #533
    Quote Originally Posted by Motso View Post
    People seem to be taking a weird stand about this idea. Noone really denies that loot boxes are a shitty mechanic. And most people accept that its probably not great for kids. But then things get bogged down in a debate about what exactly constitutes gambling. I feel like that is missing the point, if it can be proven that these systems are training kids to respond like gamblers, and/or is impacting the rates of gambling in youth.. then yeah it should be regulated.
    Wait a second. "Respond like gamblers". That's what video games essentially are. That's how developers get players hooked on a video game. That is why so many people were, and still are, hooked to WoW.

    This isn't just lootboxes. This is the core of video game mechanics. Does that mean developers of MMO shouldn't be allowed to charge a monthly fee for their highly addictive game? Does that mean it would be immoral to do so?

  14. #534
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keeper Stalladris View Post
    Ah bullshit, kids don't have access to gambling.
    Do you guys have not phones...couldnt resist.

    Yeah its not just video games on pc that have those mehanics. Ones on phones are even worse and they are a huge reason in increase of gamblers as there are no restrictions on phone games like that.

  15. #535
    Quote Originally Posted by Logwyn View Post
    That really goes for anything really. People buy everything from cards to cars to houses to gold even stocks and bonds with the idea that the price will go up and can be later sold for a profit. It's why magic the gathering cards can be sold the way they are. The initial purchase is between the buyer and seller for real;y pieces of cardboard that the seller has put a price on it. Say 5 bucks. This transaction is a buyer/seller contract for 5 dollars worth of cardboard.

    The hope and prayer of the seller to later sell the cards for more than 5 bucks is a secondary market. That the seller of the first transaction we could argue has nothing to do with. They just want you to spend 5 bucks on their cardboard cards. They have no way to regulate the secondary market UNLESS they sold the cards as singles and not blind.

    For instance, my wife buys Lego minifigs that are blind purchases. She buys them to collect and let the nieces and nephews play with when they come over. They are 4-5 bucks a figure. She is not "gambling" at all. She is paying 4-5 bucks for a bit of plastic she is getting exactly what she pays for and expecting. A toy to be played with.
    And people buying loot boxes are getting exactly what they are paying for too. Skins, emotes, decals, and what have you with a chance for the one they want to be there. Just like the Lego minifigs, You are not guaranteed to get the one you want, and some are more rare than others, just like items in loot boxes. Not sure for other games, but the ones I play break down or allow you to exchange dupes for ingame currencies so there is still value in dupes. Even if it is something you didn't want,it adds to your collection.

    Regardless the gambling nature is still there and both pray upon that rush to open the sealed container to see what is inside. Personally, I have no issues with loot boxes. I have never purchased one, only get them for free. That stuff has never driven me. Just the act of having fun while playing. Loot boxes are just bonuses when I earn them. Both both are still gambling.

  16. #536
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keeper Stalladris View Post
    Wait a second. "Respond like gamblers". That's what video games essentially are. That's how developers get players hooked on a video game. That is why so many people were, and still are, hooked to WoW.

    This isn't just lootboxes. This is the core of video game mechanics. Does that mean developers of MMO shouldn't be allowed to charge a monthly fee for their highly addictive game? Does that mean it would be immoral to do so?
    Again, a strange stand. You recognize that it is a core part of video game mechanics to reward players like gamblers. By extension, you have to accept that lootboxes are doubling down on that addictive reward mechanism. The argument isn't that these things are addictive in and of itself, it is whether or not they are contributing to the rates of youth gambling.

    I never said anything about preventing a sub being charged, or anything about morality. I simply said that it should be regulated IF an actual link to gambling could be made. And that it should probably be regulated on the basis that I think it is a crappy predatory practice.

    I'm not even saying they should eliminate them, just that someone should probably regulate how kids access the things. I can't wrap my head around how someone could debate that.

  17. #537
    Quote Originally Posted by Yunru View Post
    Do you guys have not phones...couldnt resist.

    Yeah its not just video games on pc that have those mehanics. Ones on phones are even worse and they are a huge reason in increase of gamblers as there are no restrictions on phone games like that.
    Videogames aren't gambling. Unless you are literally playing poker online and it involves real money.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Motso View Post
    Again, a strange stand.
    No, it's not. It's like you've never played video games.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Motso View Post
    You recognize that it is a core part of video game mechanics to reward players like gamblers. By extension, you have to accept that lootboxes are doubling down on that addictive reward mechanism. T
    Maybe that is true. But that doesn't make it gambling any more than TCGs or sticker albums. Be consistent.

  18. #538
    The Patient Motso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keeper Stalladris View Post
    Videogames aren't gambling. Unless you are literally playing poker online and it involves real money.

    - - - Updated - - -



    No, it's not. It's like you've never played video games.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Maybe that is true. But that doesn't make it gambling any more than TCGs or sticker albums. Be consistent.
    What inconsistency? I'm not arguing that it should fall more completely into the definition of gambling, I'm arguing that it may be impacting kids in a similar way. You seem to be really hung up on the definition of gambling, which is a fair cop a lot of people are arguing just that. I'm not.

  19. #539
    Quote Originally Posted by Motso View Post
    What inconsistency? I'm not arguing that it should fall more completely into the definition of gambling, I'm arguing that it may be impacting kids in a similar way. You seem to be really hung up on the definition of gambling, which is a fair cop a lot of people are arguing just that. I'm not.
    Do you have the same problem with TCGs (online and paper) and sticker albums being available to children, yes or no?

  20. #540
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keeper Stalladris View Post
    Do you have the same problem with TCGs (online and paper) and sticker albums being available to children, yes or no?
    Actually, I do. I have issues with all of those randomized reward toys. But there again, tcgs and sticker books are both regulated in how they can be accessed.

    Despite how badly you want it to be true, the correlation between TCGs and lootboxes is just not as strong as you believe it to be.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/truegaming/..._from_trading/ this dude gives a pretty solid summary of why that is.

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