Prot Pally to Brewmaster - thoughts?

[voxnor]

Hello Monks,

I currently main a prot paladin - not doing high end content, but running Mythic+ in the 5-7 key range. I run with a group of RL friends and family, and while they are good gamers our group plays less then optimally.

I am interested in switching to a brewmaster monk, but I have concerns about utility. On my paladin - I make frequent, liberal use of Hand of Sacrafice, Lay on Hands, Hand of Protection - and significant self healing on myself through Light of the Protector and FoL as needed.

Often, it can feel like without these tools we would wipe.

Just curious on your thoughts - do you think it was be easily for the group to adapt? Or would I just be losing too much ground in utility?

If you are interested, our group makeup is: Prot Paladin / hopeful BrwM Monk (me), Disc Priest, Feral Druid, BM Hunter, Assasin Rogue

Cheers!

[Chasavaqe]

While I don't play BM extensively (I main MW), I can talk about the class as a whole. Monks have some pretty great utility, but it is totally different than that of a paladin. Paladin utility focuses on directly buffing the group, like you mentioned. Monks, on the other hand, focus on controlling mobs. We have some of the highest amounts of CC in the game, with three highly-used abilities in M+: Paralysis, Leg Sweep, and our most unique form of CC: Ring of Peace (and also BM and WW also have an interrupt, but every tank has one if I recall correctly). In addition, we also bring the physical damage debuff (Mystic Touch), which stacks very well with physical-heavy groups.

Looking at your proposed party, I'd say BM would make an excellent fit into the group. Mystic Touch stacks with essentially your whole group of DPS, as they all do primarily physical damage. BM's are great at smoothing out damage due to Stagger, and that's the type of damage that discipline priests specialize in healing. I'd say it is definitely worth giving BM a try to see how it feels in your group!

[Alvito]

You will have a different tool kit as BrM, but they are still very useful. Your statue, ring of peace and teleport can really help things out, you are also much more mobile as a monk. There will be a bit of a learning curve for your healers and yourself as far as dealing with your HP and when you really need to worry as a monk. I'm not sure at those key levels you are going to really take advantage of some of the things stagger can allow you to do. When it really comes down to it if you are really running in the 5 to 7 range your class doesn't make too big of an impact at that point. You are only dealing with 1 or 2 affixes at that point so it just comes down to how you each play your character.

[Rhaxus]

sounds like the perfect group to play Brm in, go for it! your BM could use spirit beast heal to assist in healing if it should actually not be enough at some point, also don't underestimate the off-healing capabilities of your feral if he doesn't take bloodtalons.

[voxnor]

Thanks for the replies!

I actually didn't know about the physical damage debuff... That would be clutch for our group.

And yea, I realize in our key range there isn't a need to min max comp - just was curious on thoughts since I carry the group (and am fine with that).

I had forgotten about spirit beast heal.. good suggestion! And I suppose we could have the feral go resto affinity if needed.

Appreciate it.. this gives me the confidence to level up the monk and give it a go.

[Rhaxus]

Thanks for the replies!

I actually didn't know about the physical damage debuff... That would be clutch for our group.

And yea, I realize in our key range there isn't a need to min max comp - just was curious on thoughts since I carry the group (and am fine with that).

I had forgotten about spirit beast heal.. good suggestion! And I suppose we could have the feral go resto affinity if needed.

Appreciate it.. this gives me the confidence to level up the monk and give it a go.

imho if the group struggles in lower keys, then they need a good comp more than people with a higher skilllvl would need it in higher keys, since you have to compensate more for mistakes.
feral doesn't even need resto affinity, he has an instant regrowth every ~8 seconds as byproduct of his rotation. if he can manage to throw that on people in need, then it is a substantial help to bridge stressful situations until your disc is ready for his burst windows

[voxnor]

Well, got to be honest Monk friends - I can't hack it.

I created my Monk and leveled him as BrM to level 49. Starting at around level 30 (just an estimate) things started going sideways.

I created a Weak Aura to ensure 100% up time on ISB. I used purify once I had it and wouldn't run short of ISB. And I was in full heirlooms (no ring), with at-level blues in all other slots.

With that setup - I Was getting WRECKED. The random queue dropped me into Scholo, for example, and single trash pulls were near impossible. I had a holy paladin healing me, s/he in heirlooms as well, and from what I could see they knew what they were doing.

Some said it gets better as you level up - but I don't see how it gets THAT much better. At the same level my Paladin was demolishing things - able to practically run without a healer.

I don't mean this post as a negative on Monks - perhaps my personal skill cap is just too low - but I Can't hang with this. And I don't see how my healer would either.

It's sad, because I really enjoy the RP of the class. RIP "Gingersnap" , Pandaren Monk.

[Puupi]

Well, got to be honest Monk friends - I can't hack it.

I created my Monk and leveled him as BrM to level 49. Starting at around level 30 (just an estimate) things started going sideways.

I created a Weak Aura to ensure 100% up time on ISB. I used purify once I had it and wouldn't run short of ISB. And I was in full heirlooms (no ring), with at-level blues in all other slots.

With that setup - I Was getting WRECKED. The random queue dropped me into Scholo, for example, and single trash pulls were near impossible. I had a holy paladin healing me, s/he in heirlooms as well, and from what I could see they knew what they were doing.

Some said it gets better as you level up - but I don't see how it gets THAT much better. At the same level my Paladin was demolishing things - able to practically run without a healer.

I don't mean this post as a negative on Monks - perhaps my personal skill cap is just too low - but I Can't hang with this. And I don't see how my healer would either.

It's sad, because I really enjoy the RP of the class. RIP "Gingersnap" , Pandaren Monk.

You are judging end game BrM gameplay from lvl 49 Scholomance run?

Like....really?

[Ealyssa]

You are judging end game BrM gameplay from lvl 49 Scholomance run?

Like....really?

He's doing +5/7 keys, what are you expecting ?

[Xirrohon]

Things always change but as of now. Prot Paly will be just as good as Prot War for M+ in 8.2

[voxnor]

You are judging end game BrM gameplay from lvl 49 Scholomance run?

Like....really?

Why wouldn't I?

Other than the longer on demand cool-downs, I have the main damage 'mitigation' mechanic same as it will be at max.

And I am judging ME playing a BrM monk - not the class itself. I was clear about that in my post.

- - - Updated - - -

He's doing +5/7 keys, what are you expecting ?

Not sure I understand your point here. Yes, that's about the key level I play at with my group. Yes, I am judging my experience tanking on a BrM at level 49. None of these things is invalid.

You are of course welcome to a different opinion, but the difficulty I play a game at does not impact the validity of mine (just as it does not for you).

[Alvito]

imho if the group struggles in lower keys, then they need a good comp more than people with a higher skilllvl would need it in higher keys, since you have to compensate more for mistakes.
feral doesn't even need resto affinity, he has an instant regrowth every ~8 seconds as byproduct of his rotation. if he can manage to throw that on people in need, then it is a substantial help to bridge stressful situations until your disc is ready for his burst windows

I do agree that having over powered/strong gear and spec combos help lower skilled or new people a great deal more than what people often admit. In mythic plus what makes some specs weak or strong at one level of keys or another is different. Vengeance DH are a good example, they are great for lower keys, once you get to that 15 to 20 range you really start seeing some of their weaknesses shine through. People can do themselves a major disservice approaching a 5 to 7 like groups at the MDI do.

[Jester Joe]

Why wouldn't I?

Other than the longer on demand cool-downs, I have the main damage 'mitigation' mechanic same as it will be at max.

And I am judging ME playing a BrM monk - not the class itself. I was clear about that in my post.

- - - Updated - - -



Not sure I understand your point here. Yes, that's about the key level I play at with my group. Yes, I am judging my experience tanking on a BrM at level 49. None of these things is invalid.

You are of course welcome to a different opinion, but the difficulty I play a game at does not impact the validity of mine (just as it does not for you).

As someone who's also was working on a monk leveling recently, it is hell to try to tank low level dungeons.

Even up to level 70-80, you can just feel how more squishy you are compared to other tanks.
I started leveling with a warrior tank friend, who outleveled me, so I decided to start tanking myself and pulls he would make and not even move in health would cause me to nearly die in a few seconds.

It does get better at max level, but it's completely awful while leveling.

[Alvito]

He's doing +5/7 keys, what are you expecting ?

They aren't even doing 7s, they have run 2 6s and that is it as a tank. Lack of experience seems to be the biggest hang up currently

[voxnor]

They aren't even doing 7s, they have run 2 6s and that is it as a tank. Lack of experience seems to be the biggest hang up currently

I have in fact completed 7's - just not on time so you are likely not seeing them on the armory.

And we run 6's all the time - but multiples of the same dungeons so far.

Lack of experience is most definitely not my problem, but thanks. I have been playing WoW since launch.

I happen to play with my Wife, sister-in-law, brother-in-law, and a friend new to WoW. So yes, 5/6/7 is where we play at. None of that bespeaks poor experience.

[Shelly]

Prot Pally is pretty active and part of your general active mitigation is your "oh crap!" button with a hefty regular heal.

BrewM you don't really get that. In general BrM is super durable but if you're caught in a war of attrition you'll die without a healer. You just get slowly worn down.

So if you're running a dungeon and things go pear shaped and say your healer goes down there's far less chance of you saving it by kiting out and healing up. Not saying it's impossible, just more difficult than with a paladin.

[Reiry]

Traditionally BrM is the best or nearly the best for raiding and is mediocre for dungeons. The reason people switch to BrM is generally to improve their performance in raids. Prot pally is almost certainly better for the content you're doing.

[RobertMugabe]

Well, got to be honest Monk friends - I can't hack it.

I created my Monk and leveled him as BrM to level 49. Starting at around level 30 (just an estimate) things started going sideways.

I created a Weak Aura to ensure 100% up time on ISB. I used purify once I had it and wouldn't run short of ISB. And I was in full heirlooms (no ring), with at-level blues in all other slots.

With that setup - I Was getting WRECKED. The random queue dropped me into Scholo, for example, and single trash pulls were near impossible. I had a holy paladin healing me, s/he in heirlooms as well, and from what I could see they knew what they were doing.

Some said it gets better as you level up - but I don't see how it gets THAT much better. At the same level my Paladin was demolishing things - able to practically run without a healer.

I don't mean this post as a negative on Monks - perhaps my personal skill cap is just too low - but I Can't hang with this. And I don't see how my healer would either.

It's sad, because I really enjoy the RP of the class. RIP "Gingersnap" , Pandaren Monk.

Don't level as BrM. They are terrible while lvling, because stagger (the entire point of BrM monks) isn't working at all at this point.
They're totally different in endgame

[God Save The King]

Well, got to be honest Monk friends - I can't hack it.

I created my Monk and leveled him as BrM to level 49. Starting at around level 30 (just an estimate) things started going sideways.

Ah. Welcome to leveling a brewmaster. We suck at it. Totally undertuned.

You won't really be capable of much actual tanking until level 78, and it'll be the best around level 100. I main a BrM in mythic raids and clear +18s pretty regularly now depending on the week. When I leveled a BrM for an allied race it was so bad.

Mastery is really important for us (not specifically as a stat but the passive buff). You don't get that until 78. Probably the two most important talents, Bob & Weave and High Tolerance are also no available until 75 and 100 respectively.

I'd recommend leveling as a healer or dps. Tanking isn't really viable until much later. It's not you, it is the class.


If you're interested in more of the nuance, brewmasters are designed to take the most damage of all the tanks. To compensate for that, we have stagger which makes our health pool very smooth and reliable. At max level, we just don't drop 50% all at once. Incoming damage is much smoother. This allows passive healing to sustain us much more than a normal tank, and generally results in less spam and overhealing. Plus it gives our healers breathing room since, if we're at full HP, nothing is killing us in 3 seconds.

While leveling, we're missing all the tools that make stagger strong. At max level, with ISB up and no food/flask/rune, my stagger is 85.18%. While leveling pre 100%, you're likely looking at 50-60% at best. Meaning you're taking a lot more damage.

Dodge is about 16%. Our master increases our chance to dodge by like 10% everytime we get hit or use blackout. On a boss, that means we dodge every 3rd blow on average, so you're taking about 20-25% additional avoidable damage there as well.

Edit: One final note, based on the content you're doing, if you really want to switch I'd recommend switching to warrior or DK for M+. Both perform a bit better, and DK is likely getting better next patch. But all three of the plate tanks are very good, so you should probably stick with a paladin. All of the leather tanks are quite poor in M+. The only reason I push with my monk is because I raid first and foremost. If I was only doing M+, I'd be a warrior or DK.

[voxnor]

Traditionally BrM is the best or nearly the best for raiding and is mediocre for dungeons. The reason people switch to BrM is generally to improve their performance in raids. Prot pally is almost certainly better for the content you're doing.

Appreciate the thoughts - this is the kind of info I was looking for. I am caught without a healer more often than I would like =), but wouldn't change our group for the world as it's so much fun to run with friends and family.