Why is Nathanos the face of the Horde?

[bullseyed]

Because that's exactly what he is.

Little shit should have died in the fight against Tyrande and Malfurion, it's so completely absurd that he could hold one of them off, let alone both.

He's more powerful than any of the four horsemen, having been raised as essentially the most powerful death knight to ever have lived (except he's a ranger).

If you're utterly ignorant of the lore, it explains why you're confused.

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Nathanos is one of the more interesting characters in WoW.

He is probably also the most evil faction character. If he is annoying it is because of that thing he follows around like a dog that is well overdue for a culling.

Probably worth noting Nathanos is two people fused together, he is a supernatural fighter. This is also why he does not look quite as "dead" as other forsaken, he was fused with his alive cousin in some ritual in one of the books and that is reflected in the game but never mentioned.

He is basically a more powerful four horsemen, which were 40 man raid bosses in Naxx. Power-wise he should be able to wipe the floor with entire raids single-handedly. He's probably not quite as powerful as Arthas, but close.

[EbaumsTipster]

While it might be due to a self-insert, I think it has a lot to do with how the story team at the moment insists on telling Sylvanas' story, which in my opinion is absolutely horrible. After playing the first day of Nazjatar (minor spoilers if you haven't yet), they seem to continue on this track of "Oh guys, just wait and see what Sylvanas is up to, we can't tell you yet because spoilers but trust us it's going to be great!". They cannot give us 0 motives for more than a year (which it will be at the release of 8.2.5, even longer if we wait for 8.3) and expect us to still be interested.

Blizzard focuses on two plot points: 1: The Horde goes along with Sylvanas' plans without revolting, and 2: Sylvanas' plans are unknown.

This leaves Nathanos as the only viable face of the Horde because he is the only person that follows Sylvanas' plans without knowing exactly what they are because everyone else recognizes that this is dumb but somehow still only offers verbal protest (which sees them exiled or imprisoned - which leads the other Horde leaders to grumble meekly). I think Nathanos has to be the face of the Horde at the moment because he is the only character who is written in a way that can plausibly go along with the two plot points above. It is a shame that the entire faction is undermined to tell the Sylvanas story at the moment.

Nailed it 100%. I think Nathanos and that one writer are both cringe for different reasons, but he isn't a self insert as much as he is a forced character wrapped in tons of plot armor until 8.3. Because for SOME REASON the dumbasses at the dev team thought that keeping Sylvanas's motivation and any consequences for her actions hidden for ALMOST AN ENTIRE YEAR was a good idea.

Nobody wants to pay $15 a month for a villain to get her comeuppance in a literal fucking year. This isn't Wrath, we didn't have to listen to Arthas or do his bidding. Horde players have to be grunts for the eventual and obvious final antagonist of the expansion FOR AN ENTIRE YEAR.

I'm sure people will calm down once Sylvanas is "dealt with" in one way or another but the road to getting there was a terrible idea.

[bullseyed]

But surely the face of the horde, by your logic should be sylvanas? She's the leader.

Why would the leader of the Horde be out doing mundane tasks?

That's like saying the president or prime minister should be working at your local DMV.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

He's more powerful than any of the four horsemen, having been raised as essentially the most powerful death knight to ever have lived (except he's a ranger).

If you're utterly ignorant of the lore, it explains why you're confused.

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He is basically a more powerful four horsemen, which were 40 man raid bosses in Naxx. Power-wise he should be able to wipe the floor with entire raids single-handedly. He's probably not quite as powerful as Arthas, but close.

That’s really not how it works. While he is Probably stronger then a random undead due to being raised by arthas that doesn’t mean he would be any where near arthas in power.

The four horsemen are death knights of a higher caliber then even those that arthas raised with even the Pc behind them in power without a artifact.

[bullseyed]

While it might be due to a self-insert, I think it has a lot to do with how the story team at the moment insists on telling Sylvanas' story, which in my opinion is absolutely horrible. After playing the first day of Nazjatar (minor spoilers if you haven't yet), they seem to continue on this track of "Oh guys, just wait and see what Sylvanas is up to, we can't tell you yet because spoilers but trust us it's going to be great!". They cannot give us 0 motives for more than a year (which it will be at the release of 8.2.5, even longer if we wait for 8.3) and expect us to still be interested.

Blizzard focuses on two plot points: 1: The Horde goes along with Sylvanas' plans without revolting, and 2: Sylvanas' plans are unknown.

This leaves Nathanos as the only viable face of the Horde because he is the only person that follows Sylvanas' plans without knowing exactly what they are because everyone else recognizes that this is dumb but somehow still only offers verbal protest (which sees them exiled or imprisoned - which leads the other Horde leaders to grumble meekly). I think Nathanos has to be the face of the Horde at the moment because he is the only character who is written in a way that can plausibly go along with the two plot points above. It is a shame that the entire faction is undermined to tell the Sylvanas story at the moment.

Sylvanas has laid out her plans pretty clearly. There are three major arms:

1. The Horde will not survive while the Alliance exists. The goal of the Horde is to divide Alliance races and nations to "make peace with" each individually. Making peace with might in some cases involve "killing until they cannot try to genocide the Horde anymore" but such is life. The Horde never would have banded together for survival if not for being enslaved and genocided, the Horde has no choice but to fight as the alternative is extermination.

2. The Forsaken have a right to life... err... undeath. Every other race is reproducing, having new babies every day. The undead cannot do this, so they must continue raising new bodies to prevent being genocided out of existence.

3. The Void/True Death god is scary. Sylvanas went there and managed to come back. She either can't or won't explain what she learned there, but she wants to prevent people from being sent there. It is possible that becoming undead is the only way not to be trapped there for all eternity.

We know most of what she is doing for #1. That's the war campaign stuff. The isolating the Night Elves thing didn't go as planned, as the humans and night elves didn't turn on each other. We haven't had an update since then.

We know some of what she is doing for #2. We've had a lot of content with the Valkyr and the resurrections thing. We saw a human agree to become undead willingly (and the expected racism from other humans against him after the fact). There hasn't been a sustainable source of bodies for the Forsaken to reproduce yet though.

We know only a little of what is going on for #3. But the story keeps evolving every patch. We recently checked in with Vol'jin, but we aren't sure who the real god of death is yet. We found out Bwon has a boss and Helya seems to have a boss... but no one is quite sure who it is. This is really the main story of the patch, so we aren't going to know what is what until the end. Azshara works for N'zoth who works for the void lords, so we'll probably find out soon enough. I still like the Magni is a bad guy and is helping Azeroth so she can be born a void titan conspiracy theory.

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That’s really not how it works. While he is Probably stronger then a random undead due to being raised by arthas that doesn’t mean he would be any where near arthas in power.

The four horsemen are death knights of a higher caliber then even those that arthas raised with even the Pc behind them in power without a artifact.

I'm sure you know more than the creators of WoW.

Enjoy your alternative "facts" I guess.

[MikeBogina]

Sylvanas is Warchief, her top guy is her commanding officer for Horde forces... kinda makes sense. Garrosh had some Orc dudes when he was in charge.

I didn't like him in Legion, really found him annoying... but this whole "self insert mary sue" is hilarious coming from alliance players where every character is some self insert or another. Him not losing to Tyrande while he was backed up by Valkyr also gets you guys really triggered... as if you're just not understanding why Horde players hate the concept of "human potential" ohh.. that's right, Nathanos is a human btw... if you guys forgot. The only human ranger...

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I'm sure you know more than the creators of WoW.

Enjoy your alternative "facts" I guess.

Can you source the creators of wow for him being almost as powerful as arthas or just being raised by arthas pits you above the four horse men?

[Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang]

He's more powerful than any of the four horsemen, having been raised as essentially the most powerful death knight to ever have lived (except he's a ranger).

If you're utterly ignorant of the lore, it explains why you're confused.

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He is basically a more powerful four horsemen, which were 40 man raid bosses in Naxx. Power-wise he should be able to wipe the floor with entire raids single-handedly. He's probably not quite as powerful as Arthas, but close.

Being raised by Arthas means squats, he got no special treatment, and before Sylvanas found him and gave him a purpose he was close to being a mindless zombie like any former Lordaeron citizens.

"He sniffed the air to stoke his hunger, but the scent confused him. His foes were neither humans nor elves. They weren't living at all—they were as dead as he was. Why would such creatures stop him from fulfilling the master's will? The fear and frustration of a beaten animal gripped him as shot after shot kept him on his knees.

[...]

Nathanos looked down at his left hand. There was enough skin and sinew remaining to grasp a bow, and to teach even the clumsiest of his pupils how to nock an arrow. But he could tell that his strength had waned. His undead flesh continued its inevitable decay, and there would come a day when this hand would be rendered useless or rot away altogether. What good would he be to her then?" (from Dark mirror)

He is nothing like one of the four horsemen, which were raised by the power of the Lich King as special champions (and with the help of the Deathlord and his artifact in their last instalment). The only thing Dark Mirrors tells us is that he got remade into a better undead, close to the Death Knight kind, consuming a human life and part of the power of a single Val'kyr.

Absolutely nothing says that he'd be more powerful than a Death Knight or a Val'kyr.

And before you point at a human life being added, a single soul is nothing compared to the large amounts Frostmourne and Fel user usually consume.

Comparing him to the power level of Arthas is ridiculous, even pre-Lich King Arthas, who was carrying Frostmourne, devouring souls left and right by the thousands, and a beacon of the Lich King's power as his champion.

Marris was simply named champion of the Banshee Queen, and many years later remade into a better undead, trading a chunk of the power of a precious Val'kyr.

[Thage]

Nathanos smugging around all the time is easily the most grating thing about the war campaign.

Bitch, I kill gods. Square up or sit down.

[Brocksley]

Self proclaimed Sylvanas fanboy here, and I do find him interesting. He is the warchiefs right hand man, but really the player character has been in the past. So, it creates an awkward dynamic where he is talking down to you and making you seem less because he wants to be more. People who say he has a shitty attitude don't seem to realize that all of the forsaken have the same shitty attitude. Just talk to any forsaken NPC and you get the same arrogant and snarky language.

I understand why he is the face of the Horde since Sylvanas came to power because literally who else could it be? The Alliance has leaders that are all more closely knit, even thought they have internal squabbles, they still don't have a problem taking orders from the various leaders. But the only Horde character that Sylvanas trusts is Nathanos. It would have been cool if she could have been trusting of the other leaders and united the Horde after the death of Voljin. I remember how awesome it looked in the reveal cinematic when she screamed For the Horde! and everyone rallied. It looked like we were getting a united Horde led by her and we were going to go stomp the Alliance. Instead we got what we got, and that means that Nathanos is where he is.

The only moment that really annoyed me was him holding off Tyrande and Malfurion, because no one on Azeroth should be able to do that, even with the help of the Valkyr. I understand though why it happened. The Alliance has a bunch of super powerful Demi-god leaders. The Horde is pretty much just regular dudes. They have to neuter the Alliance leadership in conflicts because otherwise it would be over before it began.

[Dellis0991]

Fuck Nathanos....he ain't shit. He face looks like a balled up asshole. Sylvanas say jump he will say how high?!

[Darkguyver2020]

But surely the face of the horde, by your logic should be sylvanas? She's the leader.

Can't be the face when everyone is too busy looking at her ass.

[Rend Blackhand]

Nathanos was a cool character until BFA. Classic he was one of those quest givers who was great, another Undead character who had blighthounds. A hunter with his doggos. Then he had more appearances in Legion, now an insufferable dickhead who doesn’t feel like the same character from before

It’s good that Lilian Voss seems to have been given a massive downgrade to a regular rogue so we have more Forsaken characters to play with, cataclysm Voss was stupid

[Jester Joe]

took me a while to find again, but here it is:

https://imgur.com/FX4poT6

Poor guy makes a joke about Nathanos and "looking into a Dark Mirror" because that's the name of the short story in which Nathanos got his new body and everyone suddenly has to jump on the bandwagon of "SELF INSERT" just because the guy had two cringe tweets.

This is really disingenuous you left out his Alive picture which I found instantly. His look has nothing to do with the guy.

Also keep in mind his soul was basically transferred into his cousin's body, who was said to look very similar to Nathanos before he died too. Or his cousin's body was used to revitalize his, whichever.

Sylvanas strolled around the occupied altar. "A sacrifice is required for the ritual. Flesh that is... akin to your own." She stopped near the paladin's head and fixed her gaze upon Nathanos.

What manner of test was this? What did she expect him to see? Nathanos drew closer, studying the human's features. There was something familiar about the serious brow, the firm jaw, the look of determination as this mortal strained to break free.

It struck him that the paladin resembled what he could recall of his own human form. It had been so long since his awakening that he'd assumed all such memories were lost, but seeing this human now was like peering into a reflection of his past.

[Dellis0991]

Self proclaimed Sylvanas fanboy here, and I do find him interesting. He is the warchiefs right hand man, but really the player character has been in the past. So, it creates an awkward dynamic where he is talking down to you and making you seem less because he wants to be more. People who say he has a shitty attitude don't seem to realize that all of the forsaken have the same shitty attitude. Just talk to any forsaken NPC and you get the same arrogant and snarky language.

I understand why he is the face of the Horde since Sylvanas came to power because literally who else could it be? The Alliance has leaders that are all more closely knit, even thought they have internal squabbles, they still don't have a problem taking orders from the various leaders. But the only Horde character that Sylvanas trusts is Nathanos. It would have been cool if she could have been trusting of the other leaders and united the Horde after the death of Voljin. I remember how awesome it looked in the reveal cinematic when she screamed For the Horde! and everyone rallied. It looked like we were getting a united Horde led by her and we were going to go stomp the Alliance. Instead we got what we got, and that means that Nathanos is where he is.

The only moment that really annoyed me was him holding off Tyrande and Malfurion, because no one on Azeroth should be able to do that, even with the help of the Valkyr. I understand though why it happened. The Alliance has a bunch of super powerful Demi-god leaders. The Horde is pretty much just regular dudes. They have to neuter the Alliance leadership in conflicts because otherwise it would be over before it began.

My disdain for Nathanos aside, I can say that currently the horde got a few pretty powerful folks added to their rooster like Talanji, Thalyssra, Occuleth, hell man even Gallywix stepped his game up.

[Harbour]

I actually hope that Nazjatar plot in 8.2.5 or 8.3 will end with Lor'Themar finally finishing this piece of shit bootlicker for good. That would be nice and satisfying and make Lor'themar at least usefull.

[jakeic]

Nathanos was the first and only human hunter, which during Vanilla made him a hero to me, as I loved all things hunter, I would insist people do the quest just so I could help them kill him. Now he just sucks.

[Schattenlied]

He's more powerful than any of the four horsemen, having been raised as essentially the most powerful death knight to ever have lived (except he's a ranger).

If you're utterly ignorant of the lore, it explains why you're confused.

He is basically a more powerful four horsemen, which were 40 man raid bosses in Naxx. Power-wise he should be able to wipe the floor with entire raids single-handedly. He's probably not quite as powerful as Arthas, but close.

Your fanfic headcanon isn't canon... All that was ever said is that the ritual he went through involving his cousin was similar to the one used to make the Death Knights. No mention of it making him more powerful, only that he would get a new body that wouldn't decay.

If you think he's more powerful that Death Knights that were raised by the Lich King himself, or anywhere near as powerful as Arthas, you are laughably incorrect.

Go sit in the corner with and think about how absurd you are being.

[Cockus Maximus]

Nathanos is one of my favorite characters in WoW. I guess I'm the only one? I just wish Sylvanas gets killed off already so he can lead the Forsaken along with Lilian Voss.

[Daveon]

Those concepts of a Mary Sue character are also relative since it's a fan concept without an official definition.

Like, as it is, even my taking down of him as one isn't really something you can empirically "prove." That being said? Nathanos' dislike by everyone around him never directly affects him in a negative way. The dude's had basically no comeuppance.

It's not just a power fantasy, it's a power fantasy deliberately crafted around Steve Danuser himself, stemming from a short story he personally wrote. His tone, dialogue, in-game model, and romantic connection to Sylvanas are all designed around appealing to his "id" and making him a fixture in the game's history.

I know people on this board normally laugh when you quote Wikipedia, but the entry for Mary Sue there describes how the term came about. It was very specifically in reference to the author insert of an idealized character.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue

If the character is based on an idealized version of himself, then it's most definitely a Mary Sue.

It's unfortunate that the original team of writers for Warcraft are all gone and we have the B-team writing the story.