Do you think there's redemption for Sylvanas?

[Fetus Rex]

Ironically the only reason you exist right now to type that drivel is because of people who don't think valuing life is overrated.

And sure he was, he lost. History is written by the winners.

Or because I'm of conqueror's stock.

But he wasn't wrong. I would call Golden many things but 'winner' is not one of them.

[Ielenia]

Ironically the only reason you exist right now to type that drivel is because of people who don't think valuing life is overrated.

And sure he was, he lost. History is written by the winners.

Just give it up on him. He doesn't even know the difference between "story" and "history".

[Destinas]

The thing with Illidan is: we, as players, never knew exactly why we were going against Illidan. The guy never made a move against Azeroth. Never even sent a threat. The demons fighting to break through the Dark Portal were Legion demons, not Illidan's demons.

Every single thing Illidan did had two purposes in mind: protect Azeroth, and destroy the Burning Legion. His methods may have been less that scrupulous, but the sole reason we fought him back in TBC was this reasoning: demons are bad -> Illidan has demons under his control -> Illidan is bad. Hell, even the Black Temple patch cinematic reinforces that, as Akama never shows a single "bad" thing Illidan did, and his entire reasoning shown in the video boils down to "I don't like him because he does not follow the Light."

What has the naga under Illidan's command done against the Azerothians in Outland? Nothing. All battles were us bringing the fight to them. "Ah, but they were harming the environment", you may say, and to that I reply: "so what?" Outland is a broken carcass of a planet, doomed already, and on top of that, we never find out what were the real plans the Naga had. All we knew were "they were harming the environment" so naturally we are sent to slaughter them.

The only ones from Illidan's team actively fighting against us were Kael'Thas minions, and we find out at the end of TBC he's been in cahoots with Kil'Jaeden for quite some time, already.

Oh I completely agree. However, my point more was, at the time we were told by even the Naaru that "Illidan must die...for reasons!" So, we did so, and in a decade we had an entire plot hidden under the rug that was not shown for us at all previously concerning his motivations.

Should they set up a redemption arc for Sylvanas (at least, in BfA or right after) it would feel similar, but not the exact same. We have seen her do more blatantly evil deeds than Illidan ever did in WoW's timeline, but in the end a redemption arc with a hidden motive is most likely what they would do with her, since they've done it before.

[Cosmic Janitor]

The bad that Illidan and his goons did was not directly affecting us, but it affected our allies. The way he treated the broken was surely not okay with the Draenei, he employed mosters like Teron Gorefiend, Kael and his Belfs occupied Naru facilities in netherstorm and he was still considered a traitor among Nelfs. As for the Horde, Illidan had the fel orcs serve him and they created more of their kind with the pitlord that Illidan defeated.

[Ielenia]

Should they set up a redemption arc for Sylvanas (at least, in BfA or right after) it would feel similar, but not the exact same. We have seen her do more blatantly evil deeds than Illidan ever did in WoW's timeline, but in the end a redemption arc with a hidden motive is most likely what they would do with her, since they've done it before.

My problem with a "redemption arc" for Sylvanas is that, like you pointed out, we see her doing "blatantly evil" things. And on top of that, she's doing "blatantly evil" things against the the people of Azeroth and Azeroth herself! There's no way Sylvanas does not know she's basically sucking the lifeblood of the planet like a leech, so we must assume she's doing this intentionally.

We've known Illidan's motives for the longest time: end the Burning Legion... whereas we have no clue as to what Sylvanas' goals are. All we have is conjecture.

[Sansnom]

My bets are no chance in continuing to lead the Horde; High chance they will somehow make her a hero.

Maybe something like what they did to Kerrigan in SC2.

- - - Updated - - -

It wasn't really cruel. Most victims of burning die because of poisoning, not actual flames. It was nigh painless.

Poisoning from fumes is painless? I don't think asphyxiation is pleasant. Maybe painless sure. But not pleasant.

[Fetus Rex]

Maybe something like what they did to Kerrigan in SC2.

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Poisoning from fumes is painless? I don't think asphyxiation is pleasant. Maybe painless sure. But not pleasant.

After few good breaths you go dark. Pretty decent way to go all things considered.

[RayoftheSun]

Yes there is.

[Destinas]

My problem with a "redemption arc" for Sylvanas is that, like you pointed out, we see her doing "blatantly evil" things. And on top of that, she's doing "blatantly evil" things against the the people of Azeroth and Azeroth herself! There's no way Sylvanas does not know she's basically sucking the lifeblood of the planet like a leech, so we must assume she's doing this intentionally.

We've known Illidan's motives for the longest time: end the Burning Legion... whereas we have no clue as to what Sylvanas' goals are. All we have is conjecture.

That's certainly the problem with Sylvanas - her goals have moved over time, based on the situation. She was originally written entirely with Arthas in mind, and without him she doesn't have a clear cause anymore. For a while it was for the Forsaken to be independent, then it changed so the Forsaken could survive, so her main goal was the death of the Lich King for that to happen. From Cataclysm to Legion, it was for the Forsaken to thrive via the Val'kyr, but that plot point was dropped off then Helya's lantern was shattered by Genn. Now, the repeated point she makes is for the Horde to survive and thrive.

However, the problem with that, of course, is the fact that everything she does endangers the Horde. By attacking Ashenvale, Darkshore, and destroying Teldrassil, she put a target on the back of every Horde member from the Night Elves - furthered by the Darkshore scenario with Night Elf Dark Rangers (which is an entirely other ball of wax). Of course, the Siege of Undercity was due to her actions in Teldrassil, and even then she was the one to entirely destroy it in the end. By breaking out the Zandalari (who had been fairly consistently depicted as enemies since Cata), she drove the Alliance into the arms of Kul Tiras to counter the Zandalari Navy. Then, by attacking Kul Tiran settlements and major trading hubs (along with raising Kul Tirans into Forsaken) she drove them further into the Alliance. Now, most of that has fallen off course with her pissing off her own faction as well, mirroring Garrosh, which as well endangers many members of the Horde, which Jaina predicted in the recent Baine cinematic.

The other half of the problem (in my humble opinion) is that many of Sylvanas' machinations have been a secret to everyone, especially the players, which makes her story seem all over the place lately. She made a deal with Helya in order to get the lantern to enslave Eyir and get more Val'kyr - we have no idea what Sylvanas' end of the bargain would have been for Helya, only that that was a condition. We have no idea what she planned with Ashvane, only that they were speaking for a bit, and we then see Ashvane clearly working with Azshara next. We have no idea how much Nathanos knows about all this, but it's likely that he knows quite a bit since he had Xal'atath in his possession on the way to Nazjatar. Which begs the question of why Sylvanas sent so many people (Horde and Nathanos especially included) toward Nazjatar if Ashvane and Azshara's plots are connected to Sylvanas as well. We have no idea what Sylvanas would gain by working with Ashvane, Azshara, and/or N'Zoth, because it certainly doesn't align with her goal of making sure the Forsaken/Horde survive and thrive. So, there has to be a plot they haven't explicitly stated so far.

Keeping all of that a complete secret until the end only confuses and frustrates players, since it feels so forced to make it connect together. I don't think Blizzard should give Sylvanas a redemption arc, but I certainly think they would. They could easily write off her deals with Helya and Ashvane as some sort of plot to uncover N'Zoth and protect Azeroth, or something, mirroring Illidan working with the Legion to destroy them. I'm only guessing that because the writers love to repeat history in WoW, like how BfA and MoP's main story points are very similar. Considering their track record in BfA, I'm not setting the standard very high as far as story, here.

However, it would be best if she didn't get a redemption arc, and I truly hope that my predictions are entirely wrong.

[clevin]

Or because I'm of conqueror's stock.

AHAHAHAHA.... Pathetic gamer thinks he's special.

[Fetus Rex]

AHAHAHAHA.... Pathetic gamer thinks he's special.

Of course I'm.

[Ielenia]

The other half of the problem (in my humble opinion) is that many of Sylvanas' machinations have been a secret to everyone, especially the players, which makes her story seem all over the place lately.

The worst part of that is not that her true plans are being kept hidden from us, the players. The worst part is that there is almost no way of rationalizing what Sylvanas' been doing as "good for the Horde" without some Olympic level of mental gymnastics. Making a deal with Helya, using the Knaifu's old 'home', etc. Nothing she does even comes close to look "good for the Horde". Sometimes, she even seem to be acting AGAINST the Horde's best interests.

At least, of course, in my opinion.

[Bettank]

we shall overcome. or something along those lines.
I hope they dont make sylvanas the bad guy raid boss, shes to cool for that.
But it doesnt look good...

[Goldfingaz]

That is nothing but headcanon, since at no point in the game the reason for draining the waters is revealed. All we have is inference starting with the "naga bad" and "demon bad" premises. If it is revealed in a book, please tell me which book it is. And the page, too, if possible.

Lady Vashj Yells this out when you cross her bridge in SSC

Lady Vashj yells: Water... is life. It has become a rare commodity here in Outland; a commodity that we alone shall control. We are the Highborne, and the time has come at last for us to retake our rightful place in the world!

I also do believe it's in the book "Illidan" by William King. This water thing has been a well known thing since BC, not sure why you haven't heard of it.

[Ielenia]

Lady Vashj Yells this out when you cross her bridge in SSC

Welp, looks like the naga had different plans from Illidan, then, considering that while she says "we alone shall control", she also says "we are the Highborne" which would exclude the night elves, and Illidan, making it clear that this "we control the waters" thing is a naga thing, not an Illidan thing.

I also do believe it's in the book "Illidan" by William King. This water thing has been a well known thing since BC, not sure why you haven't heard of it.

I do not own any books. But the WoWPedia does source a lot of information from books, and there is no book link about that information. The site even says: "Their exact reason for doing this is somewhat unclear"

[Taenaeris]

All this discussion about what "Sylvanas" would do ... as if she were an actual person! How ridiculous!

Of course, this will depend entirely upon what narrative Blizzard (and those behind them) want to tell with that character.

You shouldn't really think about what'd make sense story-wise - because that's certainly not going to play a huge part in this, it's all about business and which political story they might want to push with it. And it'll likely also depend on whether or not Activision will split from Blizzard because I have the feeling that Activision is behind most of those bad elements.

[Naiattavain]

All this discussion about what "Sylvanas" would do ... as if she were an actual person! How ridiculous!

Of course, this will depend entirely upon what narrative Blizzard (and those behind them) want to tell with that character.

You shouldn't really think about what'd make sense story-wise - because that's certainly not going to play a huge part in this, it's all about business and which political story they might want to push with it. And it'll likely also depend on whether or not Activision will split from Blizzard because I have the feeling that Activision is behind most of those bad elements.

good read.

[Goldfingaz]

Welp, looks like the naga had different plans from Illidan, then, considering that while she says "we alone shall control", she also says "we are the Highborne" which would exclude the night elves, and Illidan, making it clear that this "we control the waters" thing is a naga thing, not an Illidan thing.


I do not own any books. But the WoWPedia does source a lot of information from books, and there is no book link about that information. The site even says: "Their exact reason for doing this is somewhat unclear"

https://web.archive.org/web/20130330...shrine-cavern/

Is this better for you?

[Powerogue]

"""Hero""" maybe, but most likely in the self-sacrificing sort of way that means we still kill her off.

No one of this caliber of villainy in the history of WoW has not died for it. And dying for it and being redeemed aren't mutually exclusive, just look at Illidan.

- - - Updated - - -

All this discussion about what "Sylvanas" would do ... as if she were an actual person! How ridiculous!

Of course, this will depend entirely upon what narrative Blizzard (and those behind them) want to tell with that character.

You shouldn't really think about what'd make sense story-wise - because that's certainly not going to play a huge part in this, it's all about business and which political story they might want to push with it. And it'll likely also depend on whether or not Activision will split from Blizzard because I have the feeling that Activision is behind most of those bad elements.

I only disagree that it's about "pushing a political story." WoW's story is and always has been Rule of Cool driven. They want to have a cool ending that is distinct from Garrosh's and befitting of such an iconic and ultimately popular character.

I would think somehow tying Sylvanas and her ambiguous plans to N'zoth and Azeroth the titan, to wrap up the "Battle For Azeroth" theme of the expansion in a two-for-one final content patch.

[Muajin76]

I wonder if she will take the forsaken and break away from the horde.