Nazjatar and night elfs (also nightborne).

[Feanoro]

So are you suggesting they side with the faction that had just attacked an allied nation during a time of peace?

Speaking of things the Nightborne would know nothing about...

[mickybrighteyes]

Speaking of things the Nightborne would know nothing about...

I'd imagine recent events within recent days/weeks would likely come up in conversation, as opposed to having any real understanding about Orcs, Forsaken, Dwarves, etc.

But some of that conversation might depend on how the story incorporated the pvp tower objectives littered across the islands.

edit:
Now that I think about it... how much time passed between Broken shore and our first forays onto the islands... and then how much time till we touch down in Argus?

[Feanoro]

I'd imagine recent events within recent days/weeks would likely come up in conversation, as opposed to having any real understanding about Orcs, Forsaken, Dwarves, etc.

But some of that conversation might depend on how the story incorporated the pvp tower objectives littered across the islands.

Point is we're speculating, as Stormheim wasn't included in the flimsy justification to give sort of NElf models to Horde.

[mickybrighteyes]

Point is we're speculating, as Stormheim wasn't included in the flimsy justification to give sort of NElf models to Horde.

I dunno... I feel as though the coalition of rival elves would likely be talking about how they might have to turn on one another between the petty games and vandalism they were fucking around with.

[eurojust]

Not like she is literally a Banshee AND the Queen of a nation or anything... NOw if you want to sit there and argue about the inherent nature of such things... the head military leader during the Broken Isle military campaign was a physical manifestation of an ancient elven monstrocity.


Not to the nation sequestered off from teh world since 10,000+ years prior to teh planet even learning of those groups

Looking at the past of each nation... you do realize the entire horde's origin story is that they were pushed to extinction by the alliance (except for the tauren who only had to deal with Ironforge desecrating their dead)
Yet that seems to be your main argument here.

Honestly... Weren't the nightborne basically entirely 'High Born' elves that were largely exiled by the would be Darnassian elves? Maybe some Shendralar might be family of sorts but at that point we're looking at elves from cities a world apart.

Well the Nation cut from the world should have done a little research before picking a side instead of basing their decision entirely on their hatred of Tyrande.
The Horde origin is an alliance of Orc clans which then invaded Azeroth. War and raw power define them, hence the WARchief title. They aren't victims in any way. In fact the Alliance were very kind to them the way they put the genocidals aliens in camp instead of finishing them off.
Nightbornes were people who happened to be in Suramar. They were your average Night Elf society. They had a temple of Elune, etc. Just like Nazjatar (priestesses of Elune as well apparently), where Shandris/Thalyssra are looking for their closed ones.

[Rozz]

Well the Nation cut from the world should have done a little research before picking a side instead of basing their decision entirely on their hatred of Tyrande.
The Horde origin is an alliance of Orc clans which then invaded Azeroth. War and raw power define them, hence the WARchief title. They aren't victims in any way. In fact the Alliance were very kind to them the way they put the genocidals aliens in camp instead of finishing them off.
Nightbornes were people who happened to be in Suramar. They were your average Night Elf society. They had a temple of Elune, etc. Just like Nazjatar (priestesses of Elune as well apparently), where Shandris/Thalyssra are looking for their closed ones.

But that wasn't the sole reason, it was just the cherry on top to dissuade people from going "but what about their blood relationship w/ NEs!?!". They chose the BEs , which is why they're in the Horde. The BEs gave more aid, had better political tactics, built friendships, were more understanding, and offered the NB advice on how to carry on with their new chosen future as the BEs once did. Had they been Alliance, NB would've been blue but BEs remain a part of the Horde. It didn't matter what happened in the past, what mattered was the present in that decision.

The past didn't make Tyrande dig up the kindness in her heart and commit like the BEs did, nor did it keep her from constantly antagonizing the NB at every turn of their society when they were already at death's door. And the bitter truth of everything is that the Alliance which was bigger, stronger, and richer than the Horde somehow gave less aid, support, and compassion. If it weren't the BEs, they'd probably side with the Kirin Tor who did the most after them.

And I wouldn't say war and raw power defines the current Horde or its races. It defines the orcs and arguably Forsaken, but that's where it stops. Almost every other race is a victim or survivor of tragedy, especially the race the NB chose to decide their faction pick for them. The NB made a smart choice, because they found true reliable allies no matter who the warchief is. The Alliance is 99% Whataboutisms which is why Gnomes still don't have a capital even though they're responsible for most of their victories/tech.

[Feanoro]

The BEs gave more aid, had better political tactics, built friendships, were more understanding, and offered the NB advice on how to carry on with their new chosen future as the BEs once did.

"There, now will you stop crying that the Alliance races actually get a story for once? We've subverted the story so you can have pink or purple BEs."

The past didn't make Tyrande dig up the kindness in her heart and commit like the BEs did, nor did it keep her from constantly antagonizing the NB at every turn of their society when they were already at death's door. And the bitter truth of everything is that the Alliance which was bigger, stronger, and richer than the Horde somehow gave less aid, support, and compassion. If it weren't the BEs, they'd probably side with the Kirin Tor who did the most after them.

Hooray for retconning her personality!

Almost every other race is a victim or survivor of tragedy, especially the race the NB chose to decide their faction pick for them.

To be fair, most races in WoW are survivors of tragedy. It just happens that on Alliance, most of those tragedies were caused by the Legion or their greatest success, the Horde.

The Alliance is 99% Whataboutisms which is why Gnomes still don't have a capital even though they're responsible for most of their victories/tech.

Or that's because Blizz can't be bothered with anything but humans, and that begrudgingly.

[Fetus Rex]

To Night Elves it shouldn't be as important as to Nightborne. They have their own primitive culture now.

Azshara is the best anyway.

[mickybrighteyes]

Well the Nation cut from the world should have done a little research before picking a side instead of basing their decision entirely on their hatred of Tyrande.

Fair point... but I feel you're going to be short sighted on what should be researched.... Should they look at how Orcs are also a nation of people who were once subject to legion control that broke free? I guess you'd rather not have them seeing more similarities with the horde cause they're night elves and should be homies with the lower caste elves that exiled their like-minded brethren

The Horde origin is an alliance of Orc clans which then invaded Azeroth. War and raw power define them, hence the WARchief title. They aren't victims in any way. In fact the Alliance were very kind to them the way they put the genocidals aliens in camp instead of finishing them off.

Yeah they only tossed teh orcs in camps.... hunted them to death across the the globe. Nearly wiped out the goblins and trolls (not even because they were in a conflict mind you)

Nightbornes were people who happened to be in Suramar. They were your average Night Elf society. They had a temple of Elune, etc. Just like Nazjatar (priestesses of Elune as well apparently), where Shandris/Thalyssra are looking for their closed ones.

They were the HIGH BORN. They were the caste of elves that the survivors of the sundering exiled and cast out of night elven lands. Sure a few millenia passed, but still Tyrande's reaction isn't unique and the night elves still harbor some misgivings towards that more magically inclined way of life.

[ravenmoon]

Yes, I'm well aware, beat Sunwell while it was current and did the entire Suramar campaign multiple times. Then watched as the Nightborne were reduced to purple BElves. Blizz has a real problem of one dimensional writing, in that once you solve Group X's problem, they have no further ideas how Group X will continue.

I agree with you on this one. As much as I liked the nightborne they feel very boring purple blood elves just like how night elves were turned into purple treehigging humans for most of wow..

But then a couple of people were warning this might happen if they went horde. They would be swallowed up by the larger blood elf identity on the horde now cut off from their kaldorei roots and blizzard like they do most races, would take the lazy optio.just like they did with night elves and turn them into yes men for the bigger race rather than flesh out their own unique pre sundering kaldorei nature and culture exhibited in detail in WotA trilogy and in Legion 7.0

Which FYI @Rhlor , WotA first book is where you first encounter the people who would become the nightborne you see in 7.0 and the kaldorei you play in wc3 have their origin story in Suramar in that book too.

I dont object nightborne being friendly with blood elves, its just uninteresting the way they show up now smacking of the same dehumanisation of the nightnelves...which is ironic, because this is exactly what the thalassian is upoose to be.. a more humanised elf, whereas the night elf a more original elf, with stronger purer elven traits that emphasise more distinctly what elven means...hence why they had a far more intesnely magical society before the sundering and were given an equally more intense nature magical portrayal in their long vigil main group.

When the nightborne show up visualising the kaldorei pre sundering culture in 7.0, I never mistake them for blood elves, but then I read the Well of Eternity novel, and paid attention to the quests. They felt a night culture of elves with their own very pre sundering night elf depiction. Sir blood elves had similarities, but then so does Dalaran, it and they were distinctive enough easily in 7.0, but now, it's like you can interchange them and you wouldnt know the difference, just like for most of wow, you would swap humans with a night elf and if it wasnt for the model there would be no difference

- - - Updated - - -

But that wasn't the sole reason, it was just the cherry on top to dissuade people from going "but what about their blood relationship w/ NEs!?!". They chose the BEs , which is why they're in the Horde. The BEs gave more aid, had better political tactics, built friendships, were more understanding, and offered the NB advice on how to carry on with their new chosen future as the BEs once did. Had they been Alliance, NB would've been blue but BEs remain a part of the Horde. It didn't matter what happened in the past, what mattered was the present in that decision.

The past didn't make Tyrande dig up the kindness in her heart and commit like the BEs did, nor did it keep her from constantly antagonizing the NB at every turn of their society when they were already at death's door. And the bitter truth of everything is that the Alliance which was bigger, stronger, and richer than the Horde somehow gave less aid, support, and compassion. If it weren't the BEs, they'd probably side with the Kirin Tor who did the most after them.

And I wouldn't say war and raw power defines the current Horde or its races. It defines the orcs and arguably Forsaken, but that's where it stops. Almost every other race is a victim or survivor of tragedy, especially the race the NB chose to decide their faction pick for them. The NB made a smart choice, because they found true reliable allies no matter who the warchief is. The Alliance is 99% Whataboutisms which is why Gnomes still don't have a capital even though they're responsible for most of their victories/tech.

The blood elves did not give more aid. They sucked up more, and Thalyssra picks them because Tyrande doesnt show up asking her own kin in Suramar to join up, ..nothing more. You dont even see blood elf involvement with the nightborne till 7.1, and in 7.1 their contributions are equal...however night elf involvement is there from 7.0, which isnt a surprise as this is a night elven city and the nightborne are night elven sub race

[eurojust]

The NB made a smart choice.

If becoming genociders is a smart choice... At least they 100% embrace Horde identity now.

- - - Updated - - -

They were the HIGH BORN. They were the caste of elves that the survivors of the sundering exiled and cast out of night elven lands. Sure a few millenia passed, but still Tyrande's reaction isn't unique and the night elves still harbor some misgivings towards that more magically inclined way of life.

No they weren't Highbornes. You confuse them with Blood Elves. Suramar was just a big city of Night Elves that was cut from the rest of the world during the Legion invasion.
And for the record, Orcs can be genocidal beasts w/o the Legion. Look at wc2, or WoD.
And concerning Tyrande her character is completely dumb for the sake of status quo. In wc3 she hates foreigners but she's kind toward the Blood Elves, even helping them and delaying the mission about searching Illidan.
In WoW that's the completely opposite : She loves humans, etc. but somehow hates her cousins. However she accepts the Highbornes back during cata (because nelf mage is required). And then she turns again into a c*nt toward the NB because they need to go Horde.

[Rhlor]

I agree with you on this one. As much as I liked the nightborne they feel very boring purple blood elves just like how night elves were turned into purple treehigging humans for most of wow..

But then a couple of people were warning this might happen if they went horde. They would be swallowed up by the larger blood elf identity on the horde now cut off from their kaldorei roots and blizzard like they do most races, would take the lazy optio.just like they did with night elves and turn them into yes men for the bigger race rather than flesh out their own unique pre sundering kaldorei nature and culture exhibited in detail in WotA trilogy and in Legion 7.0

Which FYI @Rhlor , WotA first book is where you first encounter the people who would become the nightborne you see in 7.0 and the kaldorei you play in wc3 have their origin story in Suramar in that book too.

I dont object nightborne being friendly with blood elves, its just uninteresting the way they show up now smacking of the same dehumanisation of the nightnelves...which is ironic, because this is exactly what the thalassian is upoose to be.. a more humanised elf, whereas the night elf a more original elf, with stronger purer elven traits that emphasise more distinctly what elven means...hence why they had a far more intesnely magical society before the sundering and were given an equally more intense nature magical portrayal in their long vigil main group.

When the nightborne show up visualising the kaldorei pre sundering culture in 7.0, I never mistake them for blood elves, but then I read the Well of Eternity novel, and paid attention to the quests. They felt a night culture of elves with their own very pre sundering night elf depiction. Sir blood elves had similarities, but then so does Dalaran, it and they were distinctive enough easily in 7.0, but now, it's like you can interchange them and you wouldnt know the difference, just like for most of wow, you would swap humans with a night elf and if it wasnt for the model there would be no difference

- - - Updated - - -



The blood elves did not give more aid. They sucked up more, and Thalyssra picks them because Tyrande doesnt show up asking her own kin in Suramar to join up, ..nothing more. You dont even see blood elf involvement with the nightborne till 7.1, and in 7.1 their contributions are equal...however night elf involvement is there from 7.0, which isnt a surprise as this is a night elven city and the nightborne are night elven sub race

No darnassian I help the nightborne in 7.0! remember that they are the darnassian the playable night elves of the alliance!

I do not know if blood elves helped more. What I do know is that the blood elves were the ones who broke the defensive line of suramar!
the nightborne and the blood elves get along well because they share culture. the nightborne see the night elves as "country elves".
but this will be unimportant in 9.0, everything indicates that the factions will dissolve

[Rozz]

The blood elves did not give more aid. They sucked up more, and Thalyssra picks them because Tyrande doesnt show up asking her own kin in Suramar to join up, ..nothing more. You dont even see blood elf involvement with the nightborne till 7.1, and in 7.1 their contributions are equal...however night elf involvement is there from 7.0, which isnt a surprise as this is a night elven city and the nightborne are night elven sub race

I remember having a conversation similar with you in the past, so I'm not out to rehash it. Over the course of the entire event, the BEs proved more reliable and considerate. That's really the end of it there.

If becoming genociders is a smart choice... At least they 100% embrace Horde identity now.

It clearly was the smart choice when the Nightelves burned and they didn't. That's the twisted knife in the back of the Alliance right now.

[mickybrighteyes]

No they weren't Highbornes. You confuse them with Blood Elves. Suramar was just a big city of Night Elves that was cut from the rest of the world during the Legion invasion.

From the lore:

The nightborne of Suramar are the former Highborne who splintered off from the reign of Queen Azshara during the War of the Ancients and eventually from the rest of the world as well by erecting a dome around Suramar City. Led by Elisande, the Highborne of Suramar were transformed into the nightborne by the arcane power of the Nightwell.

So no, I'm not confusing them with the blood elves. They are another group of 'high born' that didn't escape the sundering in the same manner.

And for the record, Orcs can be genocidal beasts w/o the Legion. Look at wc2, or WoD.

I wasn't arguing the orcs are genocidal because of the legion...

[eurojust]

From the lore:

The nightborne of Suramar are the former Highborne who splintered off from the reign of Queen Azshara during the War of the Ancients and eventually from the rest of the world as well by erecting a dome around Suramar City. Led by Elisande, the Highborne of Suramar were transformed into the nightborne by the arcane power of the Nightwell.

So no, I'm not confusing them with the blood elves. They are another group of 'high born' that didn't escape the sundering in the same manner.

Can't find the source about that. And it would defeat any logic : Why a city of Night Elves would allow only Highbornes? Especially since Tyrande was borned there. Tyrande isn't Highborne as far as i know.

[mickybrighteyes]

Can't find the source about that. And it would defeat any logic : Why a city of Night Elves would allow only Highbornes? Especially since Tyrande was borned there. Tyrande isn't Highborne as far as i know.

I'd suggest looking back into basic 'nightborn' or 'high-borne' search queries then.

Also this is what was stated concerning Suramar that survived:

Most of Suramar was blasted to the bottom of the Great Sea during the Sundering. However, some of it remained above shore in the Broken Isles due to the efforts of the resident Highborne, who crafted a magical shield that kept a section of their city together. This shield would stay up for 10,000 years, as the Highborne believed the world outside of Suramar City had been destroyed.

Going with the above, it makes it real plausible that the 'rich folk' areas aka 'high-borne sections' were more prepared to handle the bullshit of teh sundering... the other reaches? well there are quite a few ruins that eventually were used for exiled withered.


As for Tyrande... I don't know what to think. Some places list her as a leader among the high born but nothing I've read denotes that she herself is highborne. Illidan is explicitly said to not have highborne blood and, if I remember correctly, was a main reason he was hell bent on obtaining power.

Overall, though, it seems that Suramar wasn't just any random city in the Keldorei Empire and might be better compared to, say, New York City (huge influential area but not the capital that is). And the Suramar we see in game now isn't all of it... just what's left.

[eurojust]

I'd suggest looking back into basic 'nightborn' or 'high-borne' search queries then.

Also this is what was stated concerning Suramar that survived:

Most of Suramar was blasted to the bottom of the Great Sea during the Sundering. However, some of it remained above shore in the Broken Isles due to the efforts of the resident Highborne, who crafted a magical shield that kept a section of their city together. This shield would stay up for 10,000 years, as the Highborne believed the world outside of Suramar City had been destroyed.

Going with the above, it makes it real plausible that the 'rich folk' areas aka 'high-borne sections' were more prepared to handle the bullshit of teh sundering... the other reaches? well there are quite a few ruins that eventually were used for exiled withered.


As for Tyrande... I don't know what to think. Some places list her as a leader among the high born but nothing I've read denotes that she herself is highborne. Illidan is explicitly said to not have highborne blood and, if I remember correctly, was a main reason he was hell bent on obtaining power.

Overall, though, it seems that Suramar wasn't just any random city in the Keldorei Empire and might be better compared to, say, New York City (huge influential area but not the capital that is). And the Suramar we see in game now isn't all of it... just what's left.

Obviously the Highbornes lead the city and were the only ones who could craft a magic shield. Yet it doesn't say that there was only Highbornes in this city. The temple of Elune is another hint. Even Nazjatar, had a lot of non-highbornes.
And no Tyrande isn't Highborne otherwise it would have been stated.

[mickybrighteyes]

Obviously the Highbornes lead the city and were the only ones who could craft a magic shield. Yet it doesn't say that there was only Highbornes in this city. The temple of Elune is another hint . Even Nazjatar, had a lot of non-highbornes.
And no Tyrande isn't Highborne otherwise it would have been stated.

The temple of Elune is a hint to what?

A place of worship to the head of pantheon of the empire's main religion?

It seems that there may be some vague implications where higher stations might be assumed to be 'highborne' because the highborne were just plain better.

[Powerogue]

I definitely see a missed opportunity with the night elves in particular since they were the ones that were there and indirectly lead to the well blowing up. Interesting, unexplored territory.

I'd imagine it's less "they just hate the night elves" and more "if we pulled them out to Nazjatar wouldn't that beg the question of why they're not still busy retaking their homelands in the warfront?" From a narrative point of view, that thread isn't closed yet (even though they wrote a NE victory ending cutscene for it)

So both "the night elves are narratively occupied right now" combined with "as game devs we like shuffling characters around to try to give everyone a bit of spotlight where it feels appropriate" seems right. Bringing Jaina and Lor'themar back into one place allowed for a very significant callback moment that certainly wouldn't have happened if they had used Tyrande instead.

Yes there's missed opportunities, but there always are. Just like how the list of people who wanted to join us to kill the Lich King was a mile long, but they had to pick one, and went with Tirion.

[Mehrunes]

"Dark Lady", "Banshee Queen" aren't words just dropped like that without a reason. Same with "Horde" or "WARchief". They mean something.

You mean like a queen that's also a Banshee and so on?

If they HAD to pick they should have gone Alliance just looking at the past of the Horde or the past of Sylvanas who exterminated and tortured every human left in Lordaeron. But the best case was to go neutral.

You mean the Alliance starting the previous faction war or the Alliance attacking the Horde in Stormheim just before they got to Suramar? Wait, it's the same Alliance, never mind.

And yes, you don't take political decisions just because you can't stand someone. That's childish.

First of all, Tyrande's diplomatic blunders were way beyond "welp, Nightborne merely can't stand her" in scope. Secondly, given how Nightborne are basically a carbon copy of the Blood Elves in terms of their history, they found kinship in them, as well as someone who could help out with what they were going through. That's a perfectly valid reason to team up with them.

Anyway they now have blood of innocents on their hand, perhaps even their own family who knows.

Alliance started this conflict with Stormheim. If the Night Elves didn't want to get grilled, they could have pressured Anduin to actually put his mouth where his money is and actually punish Genn for violating his beloved peace instead of being just all talk about it. But they didn't, because they clearly were fine with being members of a warmongering (in the most deranged way possible) faction. They should have been aware that the Horde wouldn't like things like Alliance attacking its fleet with complete impunity.

I'd imagine recent events within recent days/weeks would likely come up in conversation, as opposed to having any real understanding about Orcs, Forsaken, Dwarves, etc.

But some of that conversation might depend on how the story incorporated the pvp tower objectives littered across the islands.

edit:
Now that I think about it... how much time passed between Broken shore and our first forays onto the islands... and then how much time till we touch down in Argus?

Months, maybe weeks. Expansion lasts a year in-lore. Divide it by three major patches and you get ~4 months per raid tier. If you add some leeway for the time between expansions where things like Before the Storm take place, even less. Given how the questline in question takes place at the start of leveling, probably mere weeks.