Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[FlubberPuddy]

I disagree. Every time more evidence for Junker Gnomes and Lightforged Undead comes out, the louder the opposition grows. If they dont happen, everyone will be happy that they were wrong. If they're confirmed, I think anger will peak just before release, then come in waves if they become active in the story post release.

Maybe we've just had different experiences but from what I've seen when it comes to Junker Gnomes is everyone already knows they're an inevitability so most are just expressing their resigned disappointment. Aka "wow so lame that they're coming but whatever". For Lightforged Undead I've just seen not much talk about it at all other than a few speculation it might be happening because of Calia, but it's obvious so few people read Before the Storm and thus the only talks on LF Undead is "I hope not cuz they'll either be Alliance or it's just same Undead but Holy".

I feel Junker gnomes will receive the same reception that Kul Tirans did: muted excitement, but acceptance. Because what can you do other than accept the reality of that?

But High Elves are different. As long as Ion is lead director, High Elves aint happening. But even with this security, the opposition acts like High Elves have been confirmed and ready to be released next Tuesday. That's an unhealthy obsession for something that probably wont ever happen.

Nope, disagree with the bold. If High Elves were actually confirmed, then most of the opposition would go off to other topics. Opposition is "loud" right now because they haven't been confirmed.

Like I said, look at the opposition to straight back Orcs, Demonhunters, Transmog, Classic etc the years before they were confirmed. Player opposition was loudest then. Once confirmation hits, you get a bit of "WTF" and then it quickly dies out.

Look at Nightborne addition to Horde when it was confirmed vs before it was confirmed. Much more threads beforehand against such a notion vs much less afterwards and a bunch of "I can't believe this is actually happening!" and nowadays no one gives a fuck. Just like the many other things people opposed before WoW finally added them.

[scubi666stacy]

Maybe we've just had different experiences but from what I've seen when it comes to Junker Gnomes is everyone already knows they're an inevitability so most are just expressing their resigned disappointment. Aka "wow so lame that they're coming but whatever". For Lightforged Undead I've just seen not much talk about it at all other than a few speculation it might be happening because of Calia, but it's obvious so few people read Before the Storm and thus the only talks on LF Undead is "I hope not cuz they'll either be Alliance or it's just same Undead but Holy".

I feel Junker gnomes will receive the same reception that Kul Tirans did: muted excitement, but acceptance. Because what can you do other than accept the reality of that?


Nope, disagree with the bold. If High Elves were actually confirmed, then most of the opposition would go off to other topics. Opposition is "loud" right now because they haven't been confirmed.

Like I said, look at the opposition to straight back Orcs, Demonhunters, Transmog, Classic etc the years before they were confirmed. Player opposition was loudest then. Once confirmation hits, you get a bit of "WTF" and then it quickly dies out.

Look at Nightborne addition to Horde when it was confirmed vs before it was confirmed. Much more threads beforehand against such a notion vs much less afterwards and a bunch of "I can't believe this is actually happening!" and nowadays no one gives a fuck. Just like the many other things people opposed before WoW finally added them.

Well I did not have a problem with Nightborne joining the Horde. It felt natural to me. Blood Elves have been much more invested in Suramar, and they share a closer similarity in their history compared to Nightborne and Night Elves. And I don't have a problem with the Alliance getting Void Elves. I was startled first (why banish people for experimenting with some kind of magic?), but after the danger to the Sunwell become clear, it was a logical consequence.

High Elves as a playable race on the Alliance are a problem with many facets. And even without the negative consequences on Blood Elf identity as the rightful successors in terms of Thallasian Elves.

First, if you want to keep something rare (as in the case of a tiny splinter faction of a race which was greatly diminished by wars), you don't make them a playable race in a fucking MMO-RPG. You know what "massive" is about? You know the numbers of Blood Elf and Void Elf characters? If people would be making High Elves left and right, you could not justify the "tiny splinter faction" anymore.

Second, High Elves detract from both Night Elves and Humans if they are put up as player characters. Night Elves capture the Hunter / Ranger archetype. Humans do the same for the arcane spellcasters (though Night Elves technically have their Highborne back). They don't add anything special to the Alliance anymore. Void Elves at least have their unique transformation process.

[scubi666stacy]

A lot of people seem to forget this but even in a mmo story "You're" Character is the hero all your friends are just random adventurers so logically if you were a High elf for example you would be seen from a gamepoint view as one of the last of your kind as all other player high elfs would kind of be glamoured to being human dwarf etc so yes it does keep a splinter faction rare and gives them an opportunity to show off their real heroes through the player.

This is much more complicated. And it surely does not work if everybody and their mother is playing the "last survivor of an ancient race". You can pull this off in a single player RPG, but for an MMO this is the wrong approach. And it is widely criticized by many players. Yes, I have enjoyed Legion and the story of the Artifacts, but at the same time, there have been so many other people there, who also had this "unique weapon". This is a fundamental flaw which is immersion-shattering because you have to create your own head canon or ignore parts of the game. I simply could not incorporate anything related to the Artifacts into my RP background because it just felt wrong. It feels wrong going into a raid with some more mages present, every one equipped with Felo'melorn, battling Gul'dan or whoever. This is a huge can of worms.

We need to tone down these aspects of the game for it to become more immersive, not exaggerate some more.

[scubi666stacy]

But that's how a majority mmo's have worked for many years as your character is the hero of that game in lore and storytelling other players characters don't really exist but to be help for you on your adventure and saying you believe its wrong wont change what is factual.

Well, then High Elves probably don't fit the "chosen of the gods" pattern except for Alleria... who decided to become a Void Elf.

So, I would expect other High Elves to follow her example. This is a clean and simple progression path for the Thalassian Elves - Blood Elves have their Sunwell and become infused with the Light more and more, while the Alliance gets their Void Elves.

I really don't see anything which High Elves can contribute to the Alliance in terms of Lore progression or specific roles. Their majority is in the Kirin Tor, anyway.

[Debora Smith]

All designs are very cool! They are amazing!

[Ielenia]

I was startled first (why banish people for experimenting with some kind of magic?), but after the danger to the Sunwell become clear, it was a logical consequence.

The problem is that it wasn't a "consequence". Dark'han's research was forbidden due to the fact he was a traitor and "void is bad", not because they knew of any particular consequences to the sunwell, that, at the time, was a pool of already corrupted magic.

That was why Umbric's group was banished. Because they thought their void magic could have reacted badly with the Sunwell. Alleria's incident at the Sunwell happens after Umbric and his research team were already banished.

The easiest, simplest and most effective solution would be to simply not allow void magic near the Sunwell. I mean, I haven't heard of warlocks being banished from Silvermoon, so it does come a bit hypocritical of the blood elves.

[scubi666stacy]

The problem is that it wasn't a "consequence". Dark'han's research was forbidden due to the fact he was a traitor and "void is bad", not because they knew of any particular consequences to the sunwell, that, at the time, was a pool of already corrupted magic.

That was why Umbric's group was banished. Because they thought their void magic could have reacted badly with the Sunwell. Alleria's incident at the Sunwell happens after Umbric and his research team were already banished.

The easiest, simplest and most effective solution would be to simply not allow void magic near the Sunwell. I mean, I haven't heard of warlocks being banished from Silvermoon, so it does come a bit hypocritical of the blood elves.

Well it's not like Void and Light are like matter and anti-matter in the WoW universe. You could come to the conclusion that playing too much with the Void could be a real bad thing in the vicinity of the SUNwell, by using LOGIC, so...

You know, if I would be as dependant on magic as Blood Elves are on the Sunwell, then I would have gone fully Judge Dredd in there and would have executed these guys on the spot. Lor'themar was too soft in my regard. Still my favorite racial leader by far.

[Ielenia]

Well it's not like Void and Light are like matter and anti-matter in the WoW universe. You could come to the conclusion that playing too much with the Void could be a real bad thing in the vicinity of the SUNwell, by using LOGIC, so...

Yeah, but the exact same thing about "playing too much with Fel in the vicinity of a well of Light magic"... but warlocks weren't banished from Silvermoon, were they? No, they weren't, and therein lies the problem.

You know, if I would be as dependant on magic as Blood Elves are on the Sunwell, then I would have gone fully Judge Dredd in there and would have executed these guys on the spot. Lor'themar was too soft in my regard. Still my favorite racial leader by far.

Lor'themar used to be my favorite leader, until Blizzard ruined him, by having him proudly proclaim that "the bonds that unite the Horde held strong despite Garrosh" despite the fact he was ready to jump ship like rats back in MoP, and the only reason he didn't was because of circumstance, not because of any love for the Horde.

[FlubberPuddy]

First, if you want to keep something rare (as in the case of a tiny splinter faction of a race which was greatly diminished by wars), you don't make them a playable race in a fucking MMO-RPG. You know what "massive" is about? You know the numbers of Blood Elf and Void Elf characters? If people would be making High Elves left and right, you could not justify the "tiny splinter faction" anymore.

Second, High Elves detract from both Night Elves and Humans if they are put up as player characters. Night Elves capture the Hunter / Ranger archetype. Humans do the same for the arcane spellcasters (though Night Elves technically have their Highborne back). They don't add anything special to the Alliance anymore. Void Elves at least have their unique transformation process.

First, that ship has sailed a long time ago. Darkspear trolls were almost extinct due to Murlocs, we have tons of players playing them since Vanilla. All the pandas in both factions today came from a hot air balloon. Also, ever since end of Wrath, we're not just jo-schmo adventurers anymore. We're the "Champion of Azeroth" now, oh but all those other characters you see in the Heart Forge are also "Champions of Azeroth with their own Heart of Azerite necklace" but pay no attention to em, only you are the "true one".

Second, Horde have two races of Arcane based Elves. I don't see anyone talking about Nightborne don't add anything special to the Horde. If Blizzard were so concerned about "High Elves would detract from Night Elves and Humans" they would've stated so, seeing that Nightborne's arcane focus was utilized to cement their partnership with the Blood Elves and not as a 'this steps on their toes'. It can be easily argued for High Elves to do the same with Night Elves and Humans.

You're trying to act like each faction only has one unique theme per race but that's simply not true anymore with Allied Races. Horde also has another set of nature-based Tauren, warrior-based Orcs. Alliance has now three sets of Human Kingdoms which are still about kings/nobility/hierarchy, and there's now three sets of Light-based races with the Humans, Draenei, and Lightforged Draenei. Soon Alliance will have two sets of tech-based races with the Dark Iron dwarves and Mechagnomes (coming soon).

What you don't realize is that the more races they add, the less likely they'll be to have a unique theme that doesn't step on the toes of any of the existing playable races. Wildhammer for instance are also said to be a possibility coming in later, that'll just be another rough-and-tumble dwarf like the other two.

[Black Goat]

But High Elves are different. As long as Ion is lead director, High Elves aint happening. But even with this security, the opposition acts like High Elves have been confirmed and ready to be released next Tuesday. That's an unhealthy obsession for something that probably wont ever happen.

There are unhealthy obsessions on both sides of this argument, unfortunately. When people resort to name-calling and insulting each other regarding the possible addition of a high-demand Elven race in a video game, I think it's easy to see that some people invest too much of themselves in something that is ultimately inconsequential.

[Traycor]

All designs are very cool! They are amazing!

Thanks Debora, your feedback is appreciated!

- - - Updated - - -

But they aren't different enough. Literally the only difference they have is eye color.

Have a look at the OP. We've got lots of ideas based on existing Warcraft lore that could make High Elf design unique from Blood Elf design.

[Strippling]

Have a look at the OP. We've got lots of ideas based on existing Warcraft lore that could make High Elf design unique from Blood Elf design.

Tattoos and new hair don't classify as "unique" from blood elf design. Unique would be half elves, void elves, fat elves (like fat humans... ie Kul Tirans). Alleria became a farstrider, and farstriders are our woodland light skinned elves. Where are the farstriders today? With the blood elves.. who are Horde. Lorewise it would be appropriate for farstriders (ie Horde high elves) to have tattoos.

[Directionalk9]

Tattoos and new hair don't classify as "unique" from blood elf design. Unique would be half elves, void elves, fat elves (like fat humans... ie Kul Tirans). Alleria became a farstrider, and farstriders are our woodland light skinned elves. Where are the farstriders today? With the blood elves.. who are Horde. Lorewise it would be appropriate for farstriders (ie Horde high elves) to have tattoos.

C’mon mate, it was more than enough for Lightforged, put up a better argument, you have an opposing community of minds to change.

[Ielenia]

Tattoos and new hair don't classify as "unique" from blood elf design. Unique would be half elves, void elves, fat elves (like fat humans... ie Kul Tirans). Alleria became a farstrider, and farstriders are our woodland light skinned elves. Where are the farstriders today? With the blood elves.. who are Horde. Lorewise it would be appropriate for farstriders (ie Horde high elves) to have tattoos.

Why can't high elves be taller than blood elves? Or more muscular? Or have lighter skin? The blood elves had fel magic coursing through their bodies for quite some time, and it could be used to explain why the high elves have a different built and/or posture from their Horde cousins, since high elves did not partake on fel magic.

[The Silver Covenant]

Tattoos and new hair don't classify as "unique" from blood elf design.

The tattoos and new hair in the first post of this thread would differentiate them from Blood Elves far more than the changes made to Void Elves do.

Why is it that tattoos, new hair models, and minor aesthetic changes like antlers are good enough to make other allied races unique, but are not good enough to make High Elves unique? The answer that tattoos and other minor aesthetic changes are enough except when it comes to the single most requested allied race of all time. And that's very petty on both Blizzard's part and on the part of so-called Warcraft fans who argue against High Elves.

[scubi666stacy]

First, that ship has sailed a long time ago. Darkspear trolls were almost extinct due to Murlocs, we have tons of players playing them since Vanilla. All the pandas in both factions today came from a hot air balloon. Also, ever since end of Wrath, we're not just jo-schmo adventurers anymore. We're the "Champion of Azeroth" now, oh but all those other characters you see in the Heart Forge are also "Champions of Azeroth with their own Heart of Azerite necklace" but pay no attention to em, only you are the "true one".

Second, Horde have two races of Arcane based Elves. I don't see anyone talking about Nightborne don't add anything special to the Horde. If Blizzard were so concerned about "High Elves would detract from Night Elves and Humans" they would've stated so, seeing that Nightborne's arcane focus was utilized to cement their partnership with the Blood Elves and not as a 'this steps on their toes'. It can be easily argued for High Elves to do the same with Night Elves and Humans.

You're trying to act like each faction only has one unique theme per race but that's simply not true anymore with Allied Races. Horde also has another set of nature-based Tauren, warrior-based Orcs. Alliance has now three sets of Human Kingdoms which are still about kings/nobility/hierarchy, and there's now three sets of Light-based races with the Humans, Draenei, and Lightforged Draenei. Soon Alliance will have two sets of tech-based races with the Dark Iron dwarves and Mechagnomes (coming soon).

What you don't realize is that the more races they add, the less likely they'll be to have a unique theme that doesn't step on the toes of any of the existing playable races. Wildhammer for instance are also said to be a possibility coming in later, that'll just be another rough-and-tumble dwarf like the other two.

Trolls probably had time to replenish. Who knows how fast they can breed?

And I did not mention "1 theme for 1 race". This is your spin. I had at least 3 topic for Night Elves alone (Druidism, Matriarchy, Hunters) - and this not included the recent addition of Highborne, which are fortunately different from what Human mages have to offer.

You also compare apples and oranges here. Adding some more dwarves does not change anything, they are still dwarves. But adding High Elves will either hurt existing Night Elves, Void Elves and Human themes, or it will leave the High Elves bland and / or unrecognisable.

Regarding Fel: Warlocks manipulate Fel, they are not infused with it, they do not change their race by becoming a Warlock. Same is with Shadow Priests, they only use Shadow magic, but keep their race. Void is a bit more aggressive. It changes your race by transmuting you into something different. Also, there was an attempt to corrupt the Sunwell through demonic forces. This had required the presence of one of the most powerful Eredar. Seems to me like Fel is not that strong.

[Obelisk Kai]

C’mon mate, it was more than enough for Lightforged, put up a better argument, you have an opposing community of minds to change.

Actually the argument is fine, it is your counter-point that fails.

You reduce the differences between Lightforged Draenei and ordinary Draenei to just tattoos and new hair styles. That is not the case. Lightforged Draenei are differentiated from ordinary Draenei because they are Lightforged, there is a unique lore behind why they are different and ordinary Draenei can not emulate the look of a Lightforged Draenei whilst NOT being lightforged. Every single allied race is differentiated from it's parent on some fundamental level that the parent cannot replicate. Highmountain Tauren were blessed by Cenarius, Dark Iron Dwarves are an entirely separate clan of Dwarves who spent centuries under the yoke of Ragnaros, Mag'har Orcs are uncorrupted Orcs etc.

There is also the fact that Lightforged Draenei do not cross the faction barrier, they are playable on the same faction as ordinary Draenei. Less differentiation is required for an Allied race that shares the same faction as it's parent.

If you look at the thalassian elves the Alliance did get, the Void Elves, you see that they were differentiated by a unique lore explaining their differences i.e. the transformation process that rendered them Void Elves. Void Elves are a shadow based thalassian elf, against the Blood/High Elves who are now a light based thalassian elf due to feeding on the Sunwell (and expressed through golden eyes).

Alliance High Elves are confirmed to feed on the same Sunwell as the Blood Elves post-restoration, meaning any changes the Blood Elves will undergo, so will they. Given that there is no biological difference between the two groups and that there is no aesthetic difference, an attempt is made to manufacture thematic differences which is the source of most the art at the beginning of this thread and which is expressed as the only thing pro High Elfers not only can change, but want to change...hairstyles and tattoos.
Going further than that might mean changing the Alliance High Elf into something that is not a tall, blonde-haired,fair skinned, majestic elf and that is of course the goal.

The fundamental problem of course is that any hairstyle can just as easily be worn by a Blood Elf. Yes, every Allied race has different hairstyles from the parent race, but those are garnishes on an Allied race that accentuates a difference already there. An Allied race cannot be justified by hairstyles alone. As for tattoos, Alleria style tattoos come from Warcraft 2 when the High Elf people were united. Blood Elves ARE High Elves and those tattoos are a part of the heritage of the High Elves that the Blood Elves embody. There is no reason a Blood Elf wouldn't have access to them.

[Ielenia]

The fundamental problem of course is that any hairstyle can just as easily be worn by a Blood Elf.

Except that races like the highmountain tauren and lightforged draenei could have just as easily been simple race customization for the tauren and draenei, respectively.

"Hey, here's some new horns for you, tauren."
"Hey, here's some new tattoos for you, draenei."

And yet those are entirely "new" playable "races".

[Obelisk Kai]

Except that races like the highmountain tauren and lightforged draenei could have just as easily been simple race customization for the tauren and draenei, respectively.

"Hey, here's some new horns for you, tauren."
"Hey, here's some new tattoos for you, draenei."

And yet those are entirely "new" playable "races".

They could have been. I think it would have been better had they have been. But they weren't. An entirely new category was created for them.

And the differences those races have with their parents is explained by lore, in both cases an outside force acting to transform them from the base into something different. That is the case with HM Tauren. That is the case with LF Draenei. That IS the case with Void Elves.

[Strippling]

C’mon mate, it was more than enough for Lightforged, put up a better argument, you have an opposing community of minds to change.

LF Draenei don't cross faction boundaries.

Also, LF Draenei have undergone a transformation that regular Draenei have not. In the case of high elves, there is no such transformation between them and blood elves.. they are the exact same. The visual differences that ARs ehxibit are generally based on the fact that these groups have undergone actual physical transformations and/or have been separated from their parent race for 1000s of year, culminating in massive cultural and lore points of difference. High elves have neither... their lore is practically the same as blood elves minus 15 years or so (which is really the blink of an eye for an elf who lives 1000s of years) and biologically they are the same. This is why VE were made purple, to provide a level of visual distinctness sufficient to warrant a playable group of high elves on the alliance, who do not detract from the uniqueness of the main high elven group who are on the Horde.

- - - Updated - - -

Why can't high elves be taller than blood elves? Or more muscular? Or have lighter skin? The blood elves had fel magic coursing through their bodies for quite some time, and it could be used to explain why the high elves have a different built and/or posture from their Horde cousins, since high elves did not partake on fel magic.

Well, what would warrant them being taller or more muscly? What differences in lifestyle do high elves have to blood elves that would support high elves being physically larger? The main alliance aligned high elven group reside in Dalaran, a majestic and magical city. This resembles Blood elves who reside in Silvermoon. So with the case of the SC, they have zero reason to be physically different as they are magical city dwellers like the blood elves of Silvermoon.

Then there are the highvale elves who dwell at the lodge. But, we know for fact that many of the farstriders prefer to reside in the woods away from their city dwelling kin. What lifestyle and cultural differences would the highvale elves have that would warrant them being physically or aesthetically different to farstriders?

Apart from green eyes, fel magic did not physically alter blood elves. And we see in game now that these changes are slowly being reverted due to the Sunwell, which ultimately will lead to the blood elves and high elves drawing closer to one another physically (ie eye color)

Also, blood elves have light skin options. How do you give "lighter" skin options to high elves then without making them ghosts?

- - - Updated - - -

The tattoos and new hair in the first post of this thread would differentiate them from Blood Elves far more than the changes made to Void Elves do.

No, they would not.

Why is it that tattoos, new hair models, and minor aesthetic changes like antlers are good enough to make other allied races unique, but are not good enough to make High Elves unique?

See my response to Directionalk