Thrall x Jaina

[Super Dickmann]

It is blind as in psychology blind hatred is defined not seeing the target/targets of your hatred as a person. Also as orcs didn't attack KT even in second war it was infact KT navy who attacked them while they only aimed to attack lordaeron area so Daelins hatred is pretty blind as its dragonmaw clan and specifically dragon riders with RED DRAGONS who killed his son while the alliance navy attacked the orcs. Also which is most important he treated them like vermins because of his hatred ALL ORCS and not just once responsible.

I don't see your point here. Whether Jaina treats the orcs as people or not is completely immaterial to whether she and the Kul Tirans have valid reasons to hate them on the basis of their action. Obviously Daelin isn't going to go like "Oh, I guess I shouldn't have taken my navy to fight the Horde then my son wouldn't have died, I should've just let Orgrim run over the other human kingdoms and take over the known world".

[Specialka]

ok, but it is cheating to use powers outside your own physical prowess and fighting ability in mak gora, right?

Nope. Magic is not forbidden if not told before the fight. And Thrall did use magic in his first Mak'gor against Garrosh, and the latter did not complain about it.

- - - Updated - - -

If the guy lost all his powers because he felt so bad about him "possibly" cheating than maybe he just cheated.

He felt bad about it because he had to kill Garrosh. That made him realize that he made wrong choices which had really big repercussions.

[Arrashi]

He felt bad about it because he had to kill Garrosh. That made him realize that he made wrong choices which had really big repercussions.

Or its just the case of "innocents have nothing to worry about".

[Terongor]

I don't see your point here. Whether Jaina treats the orcs as people or not is completely immaterial to whether she and the Kul Tirans have valid reasons to hate them on the basis of their action. Obviously Daelin isn't going to go like "Oh, I guess I shouldn't have taken my navy to fight the Horde then my son wouldn't have died, I should've just let Orgrim run over the other human kingdoms and take over the known world".

My original comments was about jainas healing from wounds which caused her to have blind hatred towards orcs. I'm not saying hating your enemy is bad but blind hatred is as in many cases prevents emotional growth. Also Derek didn't die during that attack get your facts straight he died when he tried to sink black tooth grin clan who retreating from tomb of sargeras after the death of Gul'dan and it Daelin and Derek who attacked orcs who were just trying escape for their lives not even attack at that point so yeah its their fault and it dragonmaw and red dragons responsible not other clans for dereks death. geez you should remember second war better.

[Super Dickmann]

My original comments was about jainas healing from wounds which caused her to have blind hatred towards orcs. I'm not saying hating your enemy is bad but blind hatred is as in many cases prevents emotional growth. Also Derek didn't die during that attack get your facts straight he died when he tried to sink black tooth grin clan who retreating from tomb of sargeras after the death of Gul'dan and it Daelin and Derek who attacked orcs who were just trying escape for their lives not even attack at that point so yeah its their fault and it dragonmaw and red dragons responsible not other clans for dereks death. geez you should remember second war better.

The fuck are you on about with the second spiel? I am well aware how Derek died, and not only does it make no difference because he'd be killed during a war with orcs either way, as would all other Kul Tirans who died in the Second War, but what you say is also wrong. It was the dragonriders who attacked the third fleet first which was standing back, with the first fleet having engaged other orcish ships. Daelin had no way of knowing that they were the leftovers of the ships sent after Gul'dan and absolutely zero reason to care since they were still enemy combatants. Not that it matters, obviously two sides would be attacking each other during a war.

The Horde killed his son, to say it's Daelin's fault because he decided to join with other humans to protect his land from what were at this point homicidal alien invaders is comedy. In turn, positive emotional growth doesn't include the self-centeredness that Jaina's turn demonstrates. She herself was able to offload all guilt on her dad and she's now deadset on peace, her own people's suffering and the collective responsibility of the Horde in causing them harm be damned. Jaina regresses, she goes from a realist to an infantile mindset that places her personal pathology and friendship with a handful people Horde-side first and the verifiable damage the Horde has caused to her race and kingdom repeatedly last.

[Zatachi]

In case nobody said it allready. Jaina is/was a "replacement" for Thralls human sister Taretha.
And once they where good friends. Her touching him (right after he said something she can relate to as she thought something similar) is a reconnection.
A bond reforged, nothing sexual.

Though....it IS strange that his family was nowhere to be seen....but thats another can of worms.

[Zandalariprelate]

Thrall and Metzen are a failure, plain and simple

[Terongor]

The fuck are you on about with the second spiel? I am well aware how Derek died, and not only does it make no difference because he'd be killed during a war with orcs either way, as would all other Kul Tirans who died in the Second War, but what you say is also wrong. It was the dragonriders who attacked the third fleet first which was standing back, with the first fleet having engaged other orcish ships. Daelin had no way of knowing that they were the leftovers of the ships sent after Gul'dan and absolutely zero reason to care since they were still enemy combatants. Not that it matters, obviously two sides would be attacking each other during a war.

The Horde killed his son, to say it's Daelin's fault because he decided to join with other humans to protect his land from what were at this point homicidal alien invaders is comedy. In turn, positive emotional growth doesn't include the self-centeredness that Jaina's turn demonstrates. She herself was able to offload all guilt on her dad and she's now deadset on peace, her own people's suffering and the collective responsibility of the Horde in causing them harm be damned. Jaina regresses, she goes from a realist to an infantile mindset that places her personal pathology and friendship with a handful people Horde-side first and the verifiable damage the Horde has caused to her race and kingdom repeatedly last.

The third fleet was attacking their allies which were the ships who were running fleeing from tomb of sargeras and yeah the dragonriders DEFENDED the ships https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQQ3...outu.be&t=1740 as the dragonriders were the with the ships according to chronicles 2 and Daelin saw the dragons and didn't order a retreat as stated in reading of chronicles which I linked to you and the the reading stated that black tooth grin aimed to retreat only to stormwind not to attack the alliance.

His son died because he didn't order the retreat and was chasing a retreating orchiss fleet and his fleet was attacked by the dragonriders as they OVERTOOK the orchis fleet as chronicles 2 stated. Also its blind hatred as he directs it towards an entire race and not the ones responsible as only the dragonmaw are responsible of Dereks death from the horde and Dereks death is Daelin fault too. You send your son into battle knowing that he might die and its extremely self-centered not to take responsibility on sending your soldiers to battle and then when they die blame the enemy from killing them, should they just given up let themselves to be killed? Even in Sun Tzus art of war its stated that during war commander is responsible of his soldiers lives and their deaths is their commanders fault only. As such he didn't even have knowledge what were the hordes target and nothing we have implied Doomhammer sought conquer kul'tiras just kingdoms from lordaeron area and Stalin even admited it was his fault that his son died during ww2 against nazis and he was extremely realistic about value of lives and it didn't bother him.

As some people don't want war and don't want more lives to taken its totally normal have you read about how many sided sought peace with mongol empire even though they razed and raped their lands. As death only causes more death and most who were responsible of the old horde crimes are gone and Garroshes crimes too and trying punish entire race for what few of them did is just stupid. Also attacking civilians in stormsong was okay as Daelin did the same in durotan and by doing so declared a war for which horde and KT hadn't negotiated peace which means that war was still on and KT actions gave horde the right to act the same way against them so they shouldn't take it personally as they slaughtered civilians first against the new horde.(also btw it was stated before the old horde and new horde are totally different which means they don't share the blame either)

To AS I SAID BEFORE DAELIN THINGS AREN'T INSIDE THE TOPIC and Jaina story main point was for her emotional wounds to heal and regain her old self and Jaina actions before would easily imply that she is was an sociopath when she was fueled by her blind rage and positive emotional growth is learning to forgive and death during war aren't personal in anyway you can blame the leaders but you can't blame the entire race or people for it. Allies didn't punish every german for the actions of hitler against the jews either.

[Super Dickmann]

The third fleet was attacking their allies which were the ships who were running fleeing from tomb of sargeras and yeah the dragonriders DEFENDED the ships https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQQ3...outu.be&t=1740 as the dragonriders were the with the ships according to chronicles 2 and Daelin saw the dragons and didn't order a retreat as stated in reading of chronicles which I linked to you and the the reading stated that black tooth grin aimed to retreat only to stormwind not to attack the alliance.

No one knew a thing about orcish culture in the first war or orcish internal politics because the orcs at the time were, save for Orgrim, drunk on fel and never negotiated with the exception of Garona, who showed that orcs don't get close. The Alliance saw them as rampaging animals and had little reason to view them otherwise until the lethargy in the camps. Daelin did not know they were leaving the Tomb of Sargeras and he had zero reason to care - both Gul'dan and Orgrim's forces were his enemies and killing them would be a net benefit to the Alliance.

I have my copy of Tides of Darkness here, and the first thing that happens is that Daelin attacks the fleet as he sees it with his own fleet. Derek stays back to block the orc passage and is attacked by the dragon riders. This is all standard warfare, obviously the orcs aren't morally wrong to be killing their enemy any more than Daelin is. But for Daelin not to make the clan distinction when regardless of which clan was on the dragons the same result would have taken place and the only reason any of his men died at all was the Horde invasion of Azeroth makes sense. Of course he'd dislike all of them and this isn't a stain on his moral character by itself as he had no information otherwise. When he eventually did find information otherwise and ignored it, you can make a case there, but afterwards he was proven right anyway in terms of how the orcs were consistently a net negative to humanity.

As some people don't want war and don't want more lives to taken its totally normal have you read about how many sided sought peace with mongol empire even though they razed and raped their lands. As death only causes more death and most who were responsible of the old horde crimes are gone and Garroshes crimes too and trying punish entire race for what few of them did is just stupid. Also attacking civilians in stormsong was okay as Daelin did the same in durotan and by doing so declared a war for which horde and KT hadn't negotiated peace which means that war was still on and KT actions gave horde the right to act the same way against them so they shouldn't take it personally as they slaughtered civilians first against the new horde.(also btw it was stated before the old horde and new horde are totally different which means they don't share the blame either)

There is no new and Old Horde, it's the same Horde. It's the same people plus their kids, with direct continuity between Doomhammer and Thrall. The Horde under Thrall not only bears direct connection to the old one since it's the same organisation, but it has no changes in its structure, venerates the same heroes and has the same rules. It even advances the same objective Orgrim already did after breaking out. As for the whole bit about permission, while proportionate response is a thing and wars are naturally dirty, the people who are the target of them are quite obviously unhappy and dislike those who did it. See the Japanese not exactly having the best opinion of the firebombings and the nukes. Germans are a different story and one that actually illustrates my point quite well.

To AS I SAID BEFORE DAELIN THINGS AREN'T INSIDE THE TOPIC and Jaina story main point was for her emotional wounds to heal and regain her old self and Jaina actions before would easily imply that she is was an sociopath when she was fueled by her blind rage and positive emotional growth is learning to forgive and death during war aren't personal in anyway you can blame the leaders but you can't blame the entire race or people for it. Allies didn't punish every german for the actions of hitler against the jews either.

That's lunacy. There's more to post-WWII Germany than the Marshall Plan. After World War II the Allies divided Germany in two, moved Germans away from surrounding countries and herded them into Germany to prevent any future territorial claims on that basis, disarmed them and spent ages reeducating both the current and future German population in order to prevent Germany from ever posing the threat it did to them again.The fact that there were a bunch of attempts to surrender and work with them, including from high officials and generals did not change their perspective. The Alliance letting the Horde go with zero consequences because, despite huge support for the war from those involved in it like five people who did nothing to prevent the major damage done to the Alliance in the war are now sad is ridiculous.

Peace is not synonymous with unconditional peace. The winning party in a war, especially a total war like this one, will do everything in its power to prevent future threats to its interest and extract benefits. Garrosh and Sylvanas did not brainwash the population. They do not bear sole responsibility with everyone else getting a free pass. The Horde as a collective is damaging to the Alliance interests and letting it off the hook before resulted in a war started with genocide when it flared up again. No sane political or moral actor would ever make that call again.

[Rozz]

We're starting to veer off course. Please be mindful of historical/political analogies, so they don't derail the thread.

[Terongor]

No one knew a thing about orcish culture in the first war or orcish internal politics because the orcs at the time were, save for Orgrim, drunk on fel and never negotiated with the exception of Garona, who showed that orcs don't get close. The Alliance saw them as rampaging animals and had little reason to view them otherwise until the lethargy in the camps. Daelin did not know they were leaving the Tomb of Sargeras and he had zero reason to care - both Gul'dan and Orgrim's forces were his enemies and killing them would be a net benefit to the Alliance.

I have my copy of Tides of Darkness here, and the first thing that happens is that Daelin attacks the fleet as he sees it with his own fleet. Derek stays back to block the orc passage and is attacked by the dragon riders. This is all standard warfare, obviously the orcs aren't morally wrong to be killing their enemy any more than Daelin is. But for Daelin not to make the clan distinction when regardless of which clan was on the dragons the same result would have taken place and the only reason any of his men died at all was the Horde invasion of Azeroth makes sense. Of course he'd dislike all of them and this isn't a stain on his moral character by itself as he had no information otherwise. When he eventually did find information otherwise and ignored it, you can make a case there, but afterwards he was proven right anyway in terms of how the orcs were consistently a net negative to humanity.



There is no new and Old Horde, it's the same Horde. It's the same people plus their kids, with direct continuity between Doomhammer and Thrall. The Horde under Thrall not only bears direct connection to the old one since it's the same organisation, but it has no changes in its structure, venerates the same heroes and has the same rules. It even advances the same objective Orgrim already did after breaking out. As for the whole bit about permission, while proportionate response is a thing and wars are naturally dirty, the people who are the target of them are quite obviously unhappy and dislike those who did it. See the Japanese not exactly having the best opinion of the firebombings and the nukes. Germans are a different story and one that actually illustrates my point quite well.


That's lunacy. There's more to post-WWII Germany than the Marshall Plan. After World War II the Allies divided Germany in two, moved Germans away from surrounding countries and herded them into Germany to prevent any future territorial claims on that basis, disarmed them and spent ages reeducating both the current and future German population in order to prevent Germany from ever posing the threat it did to them again.The fact that there were a bunch of attempts to surrender and work with them, including from high officials and generals did not change their perspective. The Alliance letting the Horde go with zero consequences because, despite huge support for the war from those involved in it like five people who did nothing to prevent the major damage done to the Alliance in the war are now sad is ridiculous.

Peace is not synonymous with unconditional peace. The winning party in a war, especially a total war like this one, will do everything in its power to prevent future threats to its interest and extract benefits. Garrosh and Sylvanas did not brainwash the population. They do not bear sole responsibility with everyone else getting a free pass. The Horde as a collective is damaging to the Alliance interests and letting it off the hook before resulted in a war started with genocide when it flared up again. No sane political or moral actor would ever make that call again.

Actually Khadgar and lothar knew as Garona explained it to them its likely that lothar told alliance leaders about it during the planning of war.

As Chronicles 2 explanation disagrees and chronicled 2 retconned alot of thing so we can take it that that part was retconned as chronicles 2 explainef the battle differently.

As old horde was made of bleeding hollow, black tooth grin, blackrock, twilights hammer and stormreaver clan. Current horde is made up of some blackrock, frostwolf, shattered hand and warsong clans well and few dragonmaws but they joined only in cata and biggest part of blackrock joined in cata too and they followed garrosh to death. At the establishment it was warsong, frostwolf, shattered and blackrock which still would make it smaller part. So as the current horde was established with different core its a different organisation.

As yeah there is more to it but they didn't punish every german still just prevented its militarical power. As horde had legitimate reason to attack in BfA Genns actions in Stormheim and there was legitimate support from germans for ww2 and for the holocaust they still didn't get punished.

And alliance as a collection is damaging for the horde as they attacked unprovoked in stormheim and not that alliance navy is shit their advantage is over so they can't make a total victory with out horde rebel support.

[bmjclark]

ok, but it is cheating to use powers outside your own physical prowess and fighting ability in mak gora, right?

No, there are several cases of people using magic in makgora, including thrall using the elements in his makgora with Garrosh in wrath of the lich king in front of all of orgrimmar and no one (including garrosh, who absolutely would if it was a problem) complained about it. Thrall cheating in Makgora is largely head canon from some people who have spread it far and wide.

It's almost as bad as the "Old gods aren't really dead" thing

[Super Dickmann]

Actually Khadgar and lothar knew as Garona explained it to them its likely that lothar told alliance leaders about it during the planning of war.

As Chronicles 2 explanation disagrees and chronicled 2 retconned alot of thing so we can take it that that part was retconned as chronicles 2 explainef the battle differently.

Garona is manifestly untrustworthy since she killed the king and I doubt anyone in alliance high command again, had the least bit of a reason to care as the orcs were functionally a homicidal mass bent on taking their land. I'll take your word for Chronicle 2 but again, it doesn't change anything as it remains a situation where Daelin struck at his enemies during a war and where he'd quite obviously blame his son's death on the invading orcs rather than on a specific class distinction he neither knew nor was of any relevance.

As old horde was made of bleeding hollow, black tooth grin, blackrock, twilights hammer and stormreaver clan. Current horde is made up of some blackrock, frostwolf, shattered hand and warsong clans well and few dragonmaws but they joined only in cata and biggest part of blackrock joined in cata too and they followed garrosh to death. At the establishment it was warsong, frostwolf, shattered and blackrock which still would make it smaller part. So as the current horde was established with different core its a different organisation.

The composition of the Horde is immaterial. The Warchief of the Horde, Doomhammer, who succeeded Blackhand passed his leadership to the Warchief Thrall. The organisation didn't change in any way rules-wise and the objectives of Doomhammer and Thrall were identical. There is no get out of jail free card involved in a legal sense ,only in a logical sense that the people were no longer high.

As horde had legitimate reason to attack in BfA Genns actions in Stormheim and there was legitimate support from germans for ww2 and for the holocaust they still didn't get punished.

And alliance as a collection is damaging for the horde as they attacked unprovoked in stormheim and not that alliance navy is shit their advantage is over so they can't make a total victory with out horde rebel support.

Your point about Germany is wrong. The Allies spent a huge amount of time on collective guilt that's still deeply entrenched in German culture to this day, but will drop the RL politics. The rest of the point of yours I agree with you - yes, the Horde had valid reasons to go to war and yes, if the Horde were to win, they too would be wise to either destroy their enemy or completely cripple them. But since that's not going to happen as Anduin will win, the Alliance are the ones to do this and, since them letting everyone go before didn't work when fewer people backed the Warchief, they should be harsher.

[Terongor]

Garona is manifestly untrustworthy since she killed the king and I doubt anyone in alliance high command again, had the least bit of a reason to care as the orcs were functionally a homicidal mass bent on taking their land. I'll take your word for Chronicle 2 but again, it doesn't change anything as it remains a situation where Daelin struck at his enemies during a war and where he'd quite obviously blame his son's death on the invading orcs rather than on a specific class distinction he neither knew nor was of any relevance.


The composition of the Horde is immaterial. The Warchief of the Horde, Doomhammer, who succeeded Blackhand passed his leadership to the Warchief Thrall. The organisation didn't change in any way rules-wise and the objectives of Doomhammer and Thrall were identical. There is no get out of jail free card involved in a legal sense ,only in a logical sense that the people were no longer high.



Your point about Germany is wrong. The Allies spent a huge amount of time on collective guilt that's still deeply entrenched in German culture to this day, but will drop the RL politics. The rest of the point of yours I agree with you - yes, the Horde had valid reasons to go to war and yes, if the Horde were to win, they too would be wise to either destroy their enemy or completely cripple them. But since that's not going to happen as Anduin will win, the Alliance are the ones to do this and, since them letting everyone go before didn't work when fewer people backed the Warchief, they should be harsher.

As Khadgar trusted her even before the events of the beyond the dark portal in infact freed her from the mental chains and sent her after cho'gall and in day of the dragons humans commented about knowing of the clans and that rhonin knew that orcs on khaz modan were dragonmaw and if rhonin knew it was likely that Daelin did too. With that logic jew we can say that jew who wants to kill all germans is normal if someone relevant to him died in nazi interment camp.

As the first horde was destroyed and it was re-established and there was several horde which had more claimants to the old hordes titles at those moment like Rend blackhands horde he had most of blackrock, black tooth grin and dragonmaw under him and he ruled area which was central to the old horde. old horde splintered into many groups it effectively ceased to exists there was horde of draenor, Dark horde, Twilights hammer cult and shadow council which has few stormreaver, blackrocks(wc3) and burning blade under it. new horde was established like ten years after the destruction of the first horde and splintering of it. So with that logic night elves are responsible of dalaran experiments on orchiss interment captives? Orgrim sought to conquer the human kingdoms Thrall aim was repentance for the orc and new lives.

That really isn't a punishment.... its propaganda yeah but not a punishment..... well this will probably be a victory for Baine and Anduin and sylvanas is going to lose but still alliance wouldn't still have an overwelming superiority to the horde rebels as they had in mop and as Anduin is Anduin he won't punish Baine in anyway.

BTW this is so of the topic ATM xD

[Super Dickmann]

Orgrim sought to conquer the human kingdoms Thrall aim was repentance for the orc and new lives.

That really isn't a punishment.... its propaganda yeah but not a punishment..... well this will probably be a victory for Baine and Anduin and sylvanas is going to lose but still alliance wouldn't still have an overwelming superiority to the horde rebels as they had in mop and as Anduin is Anduin he won't punish Baine in anyway.

BTW this is so of the topic ATM xD

We have veered pretty hopelessly off topic, so I'll just keep it to the last two parts. The offshoot Hordes aren't important, only the Warchief is. Orgrim remained Warchief even after he got nabbed and once he reorganized the Horde his goal was to free the orcs from the camps and set up a home for them elsewhere. He appointed Thrall and Thrall continued on this same course. The Horde didn't change organizationally in terms of how it worked and since the Warchief has unlimited power, even if Thrall and Orgrim's goals were radically opposed, which they weren't, they'd still both be working within the rights of their post.

As for the outcome, no doubt the Horde will be let off with a slap on the wrist once the rebels and Alliance defeat Sylvanas. I'm more contesting Jaina's character development making sense than what will happen.

[THEORACLE64]

Christ you people never give up. This is almost as bad as Wrathion x Anduin.

That’s not bad writing, that’s the truth.

[Terongor]

We have veered pretty hopelessly off topic, so I'll just keep it to the last two parts. The offshoot Hordes aren't important, only the Warchief is. Orgrim remained Warchief even after he got nabbed and once he reorganized the Horde his goal was to free the orcs from the camps and set up a home for them elsewhere. He appointed Thrall and Thrall continued on this same course. The Horde didn't change organizationally in terms of how it worked and since the Warchief has unlimited power, even if Thrall and Orgrim's goals were radically opposed, which they weren't, they'd still both be working within the rights of their post.

As for the outcome, no doubt the Horde will be let off with a slap on the wrist once the rebels and Alliance defeat Sylvanas. I'm more contesting Jaina's character development making sense than what will happen.

I'm okay with that.

Well yeah and know as even lord of clans and chronicles 3 stated Orgrim to be former warchief before he organized the horde with thrall as originally in draenor horde was just clans joining up for a common purpose and warchief was this coalitions leader and after it was fulfilled they split up like how Frostwolf and whiteclaw clans teamed up to crush bladespire ogres in chronicles 2 and Garaad was named as warchief. So as lords of clans he was called former warchief and how hordes and the warchief title worked originally in orchiss culture its more like the clans who follow him are important.

Outcome dunno yet but I have a bad feeling. Well sometimes after person heals from a trauma they revert more or less back to themselves pre-trauma so thats most likely for Jaina atm.

[qwerty123456]

While the scene does represent this, it's amazing how they went from Warbringer Jaina to peace jaina in like 7 months.

Again

In all fairness she was emotionally/mentally tortured in Thros for quite some time and had to resolve her regrets and stuff before being able to escape.

[StationaryHawk]

Aggra was strangely absent in one of the previous cinematics.

There's nothing strange about Blizzard not wanting to put the resources into modeling Aggra just so that she can make a token appearance in a cinematic.

[Celista]

There's nothing strange about Blizzard not wanting to put the resources into modeling Aggra just so that she can make a token appearance in a cinematic.

Well with that attitude then Blizzard might as well kill her off, will save them on pixel work.