The fundamentals of WoW are outdated

[satella]

The fundamentals of WoW in BFA are running around an environment that's designed like a maze, having to look at your map every few seconds to orient yourself, and then looking at the minimap for all the important yellow markers. Then you kill some mobs, loot their stuff and loot some more stuff off the ground.

I decided to sub for 8.2 and my god, the disappointment. The only good bits are the quests with voice acting in it, since then you actually give a damn about the story or the game at all. The rest feels like it's designed to keep rats scurrying around the maze, looking for food.

Then you have 36 different specs that all have to feel different, and fun and balanced. The developers have to spread thin all the abilities they can think of over 36 specs and a lot of them start to feel very similar anyway. Nobody is really happy, because there is always a spec that is better, or worse, or that's not as fun.

What a headache, having to constantly make sure every single one of the 36 specs is viable in both PvP and PvE. It's not a horrible system, they make it work, but barely. It would be much easier to just scrap specs, or even just scrap classes altogether. Instead of playing a class or a spec, why not play a character?

Imagine if you only needed to have one character, that you could constantly change to your liking, such that no two characters would be exactly the same in how they played. Now people don't feel like they're stuck in a role that's not performing the way they like. If they don't like a playstyle, they can mix and match abilities to have a completely new playstyle.

Talents don't need to be exclusive. That if you pick one talent in a row, the 2 other talents can't be taken. All talents can be like the PvP ones, and imagine the breadth of possibilities if everyone shared the same talent pool? Imagine if there were 200+ talents that you could pick from, and none of them would be exclusive?

If everyone could tailor the way their class played to exactly what they like at each moment in their life, it would certainly make the fundamental gameplay loops that I mentioned in the beginning more tolerable.

These are just very basic, yet fundamental changes to the way the game could be structured, and I'm not saying I know what's best, but... the game has held on to the same gameplay loops, while making classes even more specialized, forcing people into even smaller roles, and removing the impact servers once had on the game with sharding and phasing and whatever else they're calling it nowadays.

It's actually amazing they managed to make the game worse, considering the work that went into all the designing and art and just the overall scope. Quite sad really.

Classic will at least bring back the servers as a crucial gameplay element, and titanforging/warforing whatever it's called is thankfully absent. It won't be the same, but I hope it will show the developers what they have done wrong and 9.0 will herald in a new era. If not, I think I might just have to try and forget this game that has meant so much to me all this time. Nothing good will come from making this game a habit, without really knowing why.

[Final Verdict]

so the next step in advertisement for a certain private server, which is deeply corrupt and wont persist long. better not, cuz the whole concept of fundamental changes is worse gameplay than classic.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Scrapping specs y eah that will go over well, I like the idea of less emphasis on spec or rather Crosshair.


Example of mages *ONLY USE FROST SPELLS IF YOU ARE A FROST MAGE DEAL WITH IT EVEN THOUGH THAT MAKES NO SENSE IN TERMS OF LORE AND IMMERSION*

[horbindr]

if by the maze and looking at the map every 2 seconds you mean nazjatar, i was actually pleasantly designed by how vertical the level design is in that zone. to the point i kinda thing allowing flying in it is almost a waste of that design. but hey, i'm sure you have the same concens about say maraudon.

also pretty sure talents in classic are much more exclusive than they are in current wow, since you can't change them on the fly. and pretty much anything in the 21+ tier of talents is just as mutually exclusive as current wows talents, if not more so.

[Uko]

As much as it is a meme blizzard isn't a small indie dev. If they cant handle all the specs now all of the sudden after being just fine in past expansions, like mop, the reason is because they throw the baby out with the bath water every expansion scrapping all the classes and start over. If they built on what they had they would be fine because removing anything is a great way to get a few people to rage. It is the reason after all these years they have never merged servers and a prime example would be survival going melee causing an uproar in the hunter community. That was just one spec now imaging doing that over everything. It would be a garbage fire of epic proportions that their pr team would never be able to put out.

[satella]

so the next step in advertisement for a certain private server, which is deeply corrupt and wont persist long. better not, cuz the whole concept of fundamental changes is worse gameplay than classic.

What are you talking about?

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if by the maze and looking at the map every 2 seconds you mean nazjatar, i was actually pleasantly designed by how vertical the level design is in that zone. to the point i kinda thing allowing flying in it is almost a waste of that design. but hey, i'm sure you have the same concens about say maraudon.

also pretty sure talents in classic are much more exclusive than they are in current wow, since you can't change them on the fly. and pretty much anything in the 21+ tier of talents is just as mutually exclusive as current wows talents, if not more so.

No, not talking about Nazjatar or Maraudon in particular. It's a trope with most games, having to look at the map constantly. Designing a game to not need a map is just much harder, so they stick to what they know can be done.

Just the fact that Classic can even be considered to be a better game is not good. BFA should have improved on everything all these years, yet they've taken so many steps back that it doesn't feel like progress. I'm not saying Classic has all the answers, why should it, it's basically a 15 year old game.

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Scrapping specs y eah that will go over well, I like the idea of less emphasis on spec or rather Crosshair.


Example of mages *ONLY USE FROST SPELLS IF YOU ARE A FROST MAGE DEAL WITH IT EVEN THOUGH THAT MAKES NO SENSE IN TERMS OF LORE AND IMMERSION*

Ok, now imagine if instead of having to make a new character every time you wanted to play another class, you could instead change your character into a new class?

I'm not saying having no classes is the best for this game, what I'm saying is that there are so many ways to design a game, that thinking classes is the only way the game works is fairly narrow-minded.

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As much as it is a meme blizzard isn't a small indie dev. If they cant handle all the specs now all of the sudden after being just fine in past expansions, like mop, the reason is because they throw the baby out with the bath water every expansion scrapping all the classes and start over. If they built on what they had they would be fine because removing anything is a great way to get a few people to rage. It is the reason after all these years they have never merged servers and a prime example would be survival going melee causing an uproar in the hunter community. That was just one spec now imaging doing that over everything. It would be a garbage fire of epic proportions that their pr team would never be able to put out.

It's not about what they can handle, we know they can handle the specs, but that is still developer time that could be spent on something else in the game. There is a finite amount of time each employee can utilize every single day, and there is a finite amount of employees at Blizzard. By increasing the number of classes, they're making the game exponentially more difficult to balance, and wasting time that could be spent making so many other things. Complexity is not always good. Consider the toilet design we have now, it's been working for a long time, without any changes, and there are very few moving parts, and no electronics.

[schwank05]

The fundamentals of WoW in BFA are running around an environment that's designed like a maze, having to look at your map every few seconds to orient yourself, and then looking at the minimap for all the important yellow markers. Then you kill some mobs, loot their stuff and loot some more stuff off the ground.

I decided to sub for 8.2 and my god, the disappointment. The only good bits are the quests with voice acting in it, since then you actually give a damn about the story or the game at all. The rest feels like it's designed to keep rats scurrying around the maze, looking for food.

Then you have 36 different specs that all have to feel different, and fun and balanced. The developers have to spread thin all the abilities they can think of over 36 specs and a lot of them start to feel very similar anyway. Nobody is really happy, because there is always a spec that is better, or worse, or that's not as fun.

What a headache, having to constantly make sure every single one of the 36 specs is viable in both PvP and PvE. It's not a horrible system, they make it work, but barely. It would be much easier to just scrap specs, or even just scrap classes altogether. Instead of playing a class or a spec, why not play a character?

Imagine if you only needed to have one character, that you could constantly change to your liking, such that no two characters would be exactly the same in how they played. Now people don't feel like they're stuck in a role that's not performing the way they like. If they don't like a playstyle, they can mix and match abilities to have a completely new playstyle.

Talents don't need to be exclusive. That if you pick one talent in a row, the 2 other talents can't be taken. All talents can be like the PvP ones, and imagine the breadth of possibilities if everyone shared the same talent pool? Imagine if there were 200+ talents that you could pick from, and none of them would be exclusive?

If everyone could tailor the way their class played to exactly what they like at each moment in their life, it would certainly make the fundamental gameplay loops that I mentioned in the beginning more tolerable.

These are just very basic, yet fundamental changes to the way the game could be structured, and I'm not saying I know what's best, but... the game has held on to the same gameplay loops, while making classes even more specialized, forcing people into even smaller roles, and removing the impact servers once had on the game with sharding and phasing and whatever else they're calling it nowadays.

It's actually amazing they managed to make the game worse, considering the work that went into all the designing and art and just the overall scope. Quite sad really.

Classic will at least bring back the servers as a crucial gameplay element, and titanforging/warforing whatever it's called is thankfully absent. It won't be the same, but I hope it will show the developers what they have done wrong and 9.0 will herald in a new era. If not, I think I might just have to try and forget this game that has meant so much to me all this time. Nothing good will come from making this game a habit, without really knowing why.

I would be totally down with this, one of my favorite MMO's of all time was The Secret World you only needed 1 character and you could be any combination of "spec"/ Class you wanted with that 1 character you could change on the fly by simply changing your equipped weapons and gear around. You could also move while casting which I also think is a stupid outdated feature of wow, you received a movement penalty while casting or channeling, but could still move made way more sense than being a turret for no apparent reason when there is a 10 story tall monster 50 feet from where you are standing.

[Raelbo]

Just the fact that Classic can even be considered to be a better game is not good.

Only if there is objective merit in those considerations. People are by our very nature subjective creatures and our preferences are thus subject to emotion and whimsy. Unfortunately most people find it impossible to decouple their preferences from their ability to objectively analyse merit.

The fact that some people consider Classic to be a better game than Live means very little unless you are able to objectively unpack and assess the reasons.

Ok, now imagine if instead of having to make a new character every time you wanted to play another class, you could instead change your character into a new class?

Terrible idea (no offence)

WoW is, at its heart, a RPG. The idea is that you play a character who has grown and developed and honed their skills and abilities over many, many years. In essence, changing class would entail starting again at level 1.

There is already a mechanism in the game for what you're asking for: creating an alt.

imagine the breadth of possibilities if everyone shared the same talent pool? Imagine if there were 200+ talents that you could pick from, and none of them would be exclusive?

Yup, very easy to imagine. This game would go from a massive variety of classes and specs to having 3 specs: Tank, healer and dps. Yeah, people like choices, but it has been proven time and again in WoW that people choose what is most effective every time.

[erifwodahs]

Scrapping specs y eah that will go over well, I like the idea of less emphasis on spec or rather Crosshair.


Example of mages *ONLY USE FROST SPELLS IF YOU ARE A FROST MAGE DEAL WITH IT EVEN THOUGH THAT MAKES NO SENSE IN TERMS OF LORE AND IMMERSION*

How does that not make sense in immersion? I am a might frost mage, I can cast some arcane spells, but all my life I was perfecting my chill, even tho I would be able to cast fire blast let's say, why would I? It it would be like a hot gas blow, while my ice lances are so perfect it pierces target like a needle? Plus lore: Jaina is hero class frost mage. Kaelthas was fire mage. It makes all sense. Otherwise most of mages would only go for arcane, which is a base of magic. I could have all the spells in the book, but for what? I would never use it.

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As much as it is a meme blizzard isn't a small indie dev. If they cant handle all the specs now all of the sudden after being just fine in past expansions, like mop, the reason is because they throw the baby out with the bath water every expansion scrapping all the classes and start over. If they built on what they had they would be fine because removing anything is a great way to get a few people to rage. It is the reason after all these years they have never merged servers and a prime example would be survival going melee causing an uproar in the hunter community. That was just one spec now imaging doing that over everything. It would be a garbage fire of epic proportions that their pr team would never be able to put out.

Blizz handled class mechanics well, but not the balance. Balance is really good Legion to now, one or two classes being top, but the rest in around 5% difference is really good. Encounters which favour specific type of dps, is another question, but balance is good overall

[Soon-TM]

Two words: competitive raiding. That's why (unfortunately) we can't have what OP is proposing.

[satella]

Only if there is objective merit in those considerations. People are by our very nature subjective creatures and our preferences are thus subject to emotion and whimsy. Unfortunately most people find it impossible to decouple their preferences from their ability to objectively analyse merit.

The fact that some people consider Classic to be a better game than Live means very little unless you are able to objectively unpack and assess the reasons.



Terrible idea (no offence)

WoW is, at its heart, a RPG. The idea is that you play a character who has grown and developed and honed their skills and abilities over many, many years. In essence, changing class would entail starting again at level 1.

There is already a mechanism in the game for what you're asking for: creating an alt.



Yup, very easy to imagine. This game would go from a massive variety of classes and specs to having 3 specs: Tank, healer and dps. Yeah, people like choices, but it has been proven time and again in WoW that people choose what is most effective every time.

This is exactly the narrow-minded thinking I have encountered, you're so glued to what WoW has taught you about how MMORPG's work that to even consider another way of playing is tantamount to heresy.

I find confining your character to a single class makes less sense than having no classes. Not being able to learn anything outside your specified class is highly unrealistic. In fact a mage, already proficient in the arcane arts would be even better at learning all kinds of other magic.

A warrior, skilled in melee combat, would easily be able to learn other ways of approaching melee combat.

That they can't even consider learning other abilities is strange. It's only natural to grow in power, and not be stagnant in a single role.

Tank, healer and dps? That is what games have taught you is normal, so you automatically ascribe it to every other game you play.

If you think about it logically, a healer wouldn't be able to heal while in combat, and a tank would never be able to hold the attention of a great beast trying to incinerate your group. The creature would go for the weakest members first. Try to at least think outside the box for a second. There is no right way of constructing an MMORPG, there is only what you are accustomed to.

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Two words: competitive raiding. That's why (unfortunately) we can't have what OP is proposing.

I'm not really proposing anything, I'm just inviting people to open their mind to new possibilities. Think outside the box.

[Loveliest]

I'm actually pretty impressed with the WoW team. Can you imagine being in their position? If they make any change at all, people complain. If they don't change things, people complain. The game being this big and having lots of players meant there's people out there who look for loopholes, ways to cheat and abuse, ways to choose combinations and items to be OP and change the intended balance and way to play. For this, I tip my hat because they managed to survive in one form of another.
Just look at the news on the first page: news about game stuff, 10-30 comments; news about a promotion, 500 comments which I don't even need to read to know is mostly complaining and calling Blizzard names. Complaining about anything about this game is like a hobby, it's like people forgot to try to enjoy playing and just look for what inconveniences them. Yeah, I complain too, it's human, but the level of complaint about anything WoW is astounding.
So... anything you feel is outdated would have other people complain if changed. Blizz can't make even one change that people won't complain about. Anythig that seems good to you will "ruin the game" for someone else.

[melzas]

So a bunch of crappy ideas from someone who thinks he can design mmorpg better than Blizzard. That's cute. You are like that little kid who thinks he knows the answer to all adulthood problems, but every adult knows things dont work like that.

[Kushana]

If you think about it logically, a healer wouldn't be able to heal while in combat, and a tank would never be able to hold the attention of a great beast trying to incinerate your group. The creature would go for the weakest members first. Try to at least think outside the box for a second. There is no right way of constructing an MMORPG, there is only what you are accustomed to.

If you think about it logically, this is *exactly* what happens in real-life combat. Combat medics stabilize and heal people in combat, while under fire. Units or individuals can distract foes and draw fire while the actual damage is done by a different unit. Your "logic" is just your game design principles.

[spalernTJ]

I would love to see some spec overhauls and maybe some spec scrapping in one way or another. You could fire and frost together into something alike "Flamefrost." Spec utilizes both frost and fire magic, which would be natural to a mage, then you have a wider assembly of talent points that allows you to decide whether you want your char to be more frost or fire focused, just to make an example. If there were less emphasis on "Spec" for the class gameplay, and a little more on the "Class" and individual choices as to how you want to play it, I think it would be great.

Beast mastery and Survival hunter could be the same. You choose whether you want to be ranged, you choose what kind of hunter you want to be with talents; want to focus on traps, bombs and gadgets? Go for the survival path, you want to play more with your beast? Go that path.

[styil]

Blizzard is in maintenance mode. The remaining players who are eternally addicted to the game are satisfied with the status quo, which is great for Blizzard. Blizzard will continue to release BFA 2.0, 3.0, etc. and these players will continue to blindly farm for ap and titanforges. While Blizzard continues to invest their money into mobile games.

[satella]

If you think about it logically, this is *exactly* what happens in real-life combat. Combat medics stabilize and heal people in combat, while under fire. Units or individuals can distract foes and draw fire while the actual damage is done by a different unit. Your "logic" is just your game design principles.

No, it's another way of thinking, I never said it was the only way, or the right way.

[lollerlaban]

Blizzard is in maintenance mode. The remaining players who are eternally addicted to the game are satisfied with the status quo, which is great for Blizzard. Blizzard will continue to release BFA 2.0, 3.0, etc. and these players will continue to blindly farm for ap and titanforges. While Blizzard continues to invest their money into mobile games.

It's clear you have no idea what maintenance mode in a video game entails.

[satella]

I would love to see some spec overhauls and maybe some spec scrapping in one way or another. You could fire and frost together into something alike "Flamefrost." Spec utilizes both frost and fire magic, which would be natural to a mage, then you have a wider assembly of talent points that allows you to decide whether you want your char to be more frost or fire focused, just to make an example. If there were less emphasis on "Spec" for the class gameplay, and a little more on the "Class" and individual choices as to how you want to play it, I think it would be great.

Beast mastery and Survival hunter could be the same. You choose whether you want to be ranged, you choose what kind of hunter you want to be with talents; want to focus on traps, bombs and gadgets? Go for the survival path, you want to play more with your beast? Go that path.

It could work, it could fail, but I like it more than forcing people down a narrow path called a spec. I just like having options I guess, having ways of customizing the character I'm spending most of my time on. I don't really like the concept of "alts". Having to do all the same quests again? I'd like to be able to do all professions on a single character even. But hey, that's just me.

[Kushana]

@Motorman
My point was to illustrate that trying to argue game design changes from a "logical" standpoint should be a non-starter. Every game has a set of underlying principles, and some of those are compromises with reality, even simulations. No flight sim says "Now you're going to wait for hours while your fighter gets its required maintenance. And then wait some more while your loadout get loaded." So arguing that the game should be changed because reality is less about logic or reality than it is about preferences.