Was Stalin a sociopath or just a good communist?

[Domcho]

I did skim through your reply about Mao and especially enjoy the bit where you do not want to speculate and entering a realm of fiction.... followed by exactly that.

Mao's leadership succeeded in unifying China, something Chiang Kai Shek failed at. Just because your cognitive dissonance is eating you from the inside due to your inability to prove otherwise, doesn't mean I should waste my time repeating myself for something you'll never understand. You can try arguing with Chinese people on this topic as well. They'd love to hear your opinion and have a good laugh. I already embarrassed myself claiming Mao was a bad leader in front of one thanks to my "knowledge" I solely based upon Western media years ago.

1. Literacy in the east vs west was about the same. Stop moving goalposts and being disingenuous. No one was comparing east to east obviously.

2. I was in Poland in 1981. In the hotel we lived in they had more staff than guests and in addition to this they had 2 tables in the reception. At the first table one lady sold postcards (that no one bought). At the second table right next to her another lady sold stamps. Wanna tell me again how jobs were not created simply because it was illegal to be unemployed.

3. Why do you keep talking about the US? If you want to compare east vs west you have one shining perfect example. East Germany vs West Germany. Same starting point, same people and vastly different results.

I was talking about literacy in those countries then and literacy in those countries now. Go do a research on the gypsy minorities in Romania and Bulgaria - how they lived and how literate they were back then and check what their modern youth turned into today. There's a huge number of 15-25 year old gypsies who were born in Bulgaria, still live in Bulgaria, but speak less Bulgarian than the average American who doesn't know what or where Bulgaria is. Literally. Not to mention this year's exam results show Bulgaria reached all time low in grades, with some students even making spelling errors writing down their own names.

It was illegal to be unemployed, yes and what? Every single person, whether he was a janitor or a nuclear physicist had a right to a 20 day vacation on any country resort of his choice for him and his family. Free of charge for him, 50% discount for his family. This is a luxury the Bulgarians had back then. Now go find out how many Bulgarians are unemployed and how many of those that are employed receive their full payment in time and how many receive their payment at all. Because this is another problem in modern Bulgaria where you don't just need to find a job, but also hope you get paid by your boss at the end of the month. If you don't get paid, you'll be stuck in your court cases against your employers for years which will eventually lead to nothing, thanks to the brilliant current legal system.

Go find out how many Bulgarians work in foreign countries and prefer to stay there and never go back. But constantly send money to their elders because old people's pensions aren't enough to keep them fed, not to mention paying for taxes and medication.

You want some examples of how far behind Bulgaria was back then?

It's the country that build and commissioned it's nuclear power plant in 1974 (1 of 2 on the Balkan peninsula) long before Yugoslavia, which worked and produced electricity back then. Now, the power plant's been undergoing decommissions since 2004.

It was one of the three countries in the world, along with the USSR and USA, that produced space food. Bulgaria had 2 cosmonauts sent to space. Members of the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences actively participated in the development and testing of the Soviet space shuttle Buran.

Bulgaria was, surprise surprise, one of the two countries in the world back then (the other being USA) that produced memory storage devices. Bulgaria also produced it's own computers. Surprise, surprise, all of this was shut down after the collapse of communism. I wonder why?

Throughout the Cold War, Bulgarian People's Army fielded between 120 000 to 200 000 active personnel. With modern equipment (for the appropriate era), Bulgaria had more tanks in it's storage than the UK. Ballistic missile system OTR-23 Oka was also a part of it's arsenal. This country even had reconnaissance variants of MiG-25 in it's air force actively in use. Go find the statistics of what and how many planes the Bulgarian air force possessed back then and what it has now.

The cultural and economical effects of communism in that part of Europe still set those countries decades behind the developed western countries.
The sheer ignorance of neo commie advocates like you is as sinister as some nazis trying to paint Hitler and the holocaust like some missunderstood historical event.

So you think the things I just listed set Bulgaria decades behind Western countries? And this "sheer ignorance" you're talking about comes from people I've talked to, some of them lived through the whole communist period, some of them were born during that period. They experienced what communism was like first hand. And your information comes from... Hollywood? CNN? How many years have you spent living in an Eastern Bloc country before, during and/or after communism? To how many citizens living in those countries have you spoken to?

Two questions for you, experts on communism:

Why did Bulgaria undergo industrialization, power plants were built (one of them even being nuclear), illiteracy, poverty, crime, homelessness and unemployment problems were solved, strong armed forces for such a small country, high scientific and technological level, had cosmonauts sent to space, and a country that possessed heavy industrial factories - why did all this happen during communism, BUT, all of this, in the current democracy and capitalism is gone? Bulgaria is currently the poorest country in the EU. The purchasing power of the Bulgarian Lev during communism and the purchasing power of the Bulgarian Lev now, are immeasurable.

And the second question: Why did under the evil, murderous communism, Bulgaria's population increased approximately by 2 - 2.5 million people from 1945 to 1990, and dropped by more than the same amount for the past 30 years without the help of any wars, armed conflicts, natural disasters, global catastrophes or cataclysms. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Bulgaria Look at the chart and answer. But be careful, not even the biggest Bulgarian anti-communists figured it out yet.

Finally: if you think I am a some kind of a blind supporter of communism I'll tell you this - before I asked people what life was back then, the same people who experienced it first hand, I used to believe the exact same things you said - spying on neighbors, no food, misery, poverty, unemployment, mass murder even for telling a joke about the communist leader, illiteracy, bad healthcare, only high ranking communist party members lived well, state police spying on you everywhere... in other words my picture of this time was a big, dark, demonic hole. And while this isn't far from the truth for Romania during the 1980s, this portrayal has nothing to do with Bulgaria who found prosperity during communism and is now undergoing extinction under Western democracy and capitalism, despite the regime collapsing 30 years ago. Those are the words of people I talked to and of whom I base my opinion on. They also told me what the real problems of the country were back then - and they were none of the things you mentioned. This proved to me the world isn't a simple black & white scenario. If you want to draw proper conclusions, you can't deny those facts unless you want to lie to yourself.

[Polyxo]

Based on his interactions with his former superiors and allies, I don't think Stalin really cared all that much about communism to be honest.

[Najnaj]

Mao's leadership succeeded in unifying China, something Chiang Kai Shek failed at. Just because your cognitive dissonance is eating you from the inside due to your inability to prove otherwise, doesn't mean I should waste my time repeating myself for something you'll never understand. You can try arguing with Chinese people on this topic as well. They'd love to hear your opinion and have a good laugh. I already embarrassed myself claiming Mao was a bad leader in front of one thanks to my "knowledge" I solely based upon Western media years ago.



I was talking about literacy in those countries then and literacy in those countries now. Go do a research on the gypsy minorities in Romania and Bulgaria - how they lived and how literate they were back then and check what their modern youth turned into today. There's a huge number of 15-25 year old gypsies who were born in Bulgaria, still live in Bulgaria, but speak less Bulgarian than the average American who doesn't know what or where Bulgaria is. Literally. Not to mention this year's exam results show Bulgaria reached all time low in grades, with some students even making spelling errors writing down their own names.

It was illegal to be unemployed, yes and what? Every single person, whether he was a janitor or a nuclear physicist had a right to a 20 day vacation on any country resort of his choice for him and his family. Free of charge for him, 50% discount for his family. This is a luxury the Bulgarians had back then. Now go find out how many Bulgarians are unemployed and how many of those that are employed receive their full payment in time and how many receive their payment at all. Because this is another problem in modern Bulgaria where you don't just need to find a job, but also hope you get paid by your boss at the end of the month. If you don't get paid, you'll be stuck in your court cases against your employers for years which will eventually lead to nothing, thanks to the brilliant current legal system.

Go find out how many Bulgarians work in foreign countries and prefer to stay there and never go back. But constantly send money to their elders because old people's pensions aren't enough to keep them fed, not to mention paying for taxes and medication.

You want some examples of how far behind Bulgaria was back then?

It's the country that build and commissioned it's nuclear power plant in 1974 (1 of 2 on the Balkan peninsula) long before Yugoslavia, which worked and produced electricity back then. Now, the power plant's been undergoing decommissions since 2004.

It was one of the three countries in the world, along with the USSR and USA, that produced space food. Bulgaria had 2 cosmonauts sent to space. Members of the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences actively participated in the development and testing of the Soviet space shuttle Buran.

Bulgaria was, surprise surprise, one of the two countries in the world back then (the other being USA) that produced memory storage devices. Bulgaria also produced it's own computers. Surprise, surprise, all of this was shut down after the collapse of communism. I wonder why?

Throughout the Cold War, Bulgarian People's Army fielded between 120 000 to 200 000 active personnel. With modern equipment (for the appropriate era), Bulgaria had more tanks in it's storage than the UK. Ballistic missile system OTR-23 Oka was also a part of it's arsenal. This country even had reconnaissance variants of MiG-25 in it's air force actively in use. Go find the statistics of what and how many planes the Bulgarian air force possessed back then and what it has now.

So to counter my examples you have brought "space food" and some personal anecdotes.

As for how loved Mao is by Chinese people, this is absolute nonsense. Half the people involved with his government was arrested after his death and thrown in jail and every policy he ever created has been abolished for very good reasons. As for "united China"... if by that you mean ended the civil war he had started then yes.

[Shalcker]

Great purge was couple of years. And you are still being a socipath, because hundreds of thousands of deaths means nothing to you.

So what do they mean to you?

To me they are results of ruthless people striving for better world. Perhaps sometimes misguided - something that often can only be seen with benefit of hindsight.

I dont care, the problem is that they started deportations in the first place.

You would rather they just shoot them instead?

Much later? 3 years at the Khrushchev's secret speech is much later? Or did you think the whole aparatus Stalin built went down the day he died?

Yes, that is much later. Stalin died in 1953, GULAG stopped existing in 1960; new world was so much tamer that Brezhnev didn't even have Khruschev shot when he was deposed.

And again, I dont care, should not have made deportations in the first place. Genocide is not good, mkay? And there was no war in 1949, btw.

Deportations are not genocide, simple enough.

So, 1949? Was his family classified as kulaks or bandits?

0.35% of total population died as result... right, total genocide. /s

Yes, they condemned, mostly in the uper level meetings, then fell silent after Khrushchev, then there were few speeches during 1980ties, when all came down. There were no reparations though, no public apologies, nothing. And your life after return was still impacted, because ex-deportees were treated like criminals. 101st kilometre and all that good stuff.

There were public apologies in 1990s.

What other side? People like you. People still screaming the soviet lies about the deportations.

You're inventing lies in turn though.

[Vorkreist]

Mao's leadership succeeded in unifying China, something Chiang Kai Shek failed at. Just because your cognitive dissonance is eating you from the inside due to your inability to prove otherwise, doesn't mean I should waste my time repeating myself for something you'll never understand. You can try arguing with Chinese people on this topic as well. They'd love to hear your opinion and have a good laugh. I already embarrassed myself claiming Mao was a bad leader in front of one thanks to my "knowledge" I solely based upon Western media years ago.



I was talking about literacy in those countries then and literacy in those countries now. Go do a research on the gypsy minorities in Romania and Bulgaria - how they lived and how literate they were back then and check what their modern youth turned into today. There's a huge number of 15-25 year old gypsies who were born in Bulgaria, still live in Bulgaria, but speak less Bulgarian than the average American who doesn't know what or where Bulgaria is. Literally. Not to mention this year's exam results show Bulgaria reached all time low in grades, with some students even making spelling errors writing down their own names.

It was illegal to be unemployed, yes and what? Every single person, whether he was a janitor or a nuclear physicist had a right to a 20 day vacation on any country resort of his choice for him and his family. Free of charge for him, 50% discount for his family. This is a luxury the Bulgarians had back then. Now go find out how many Bulgarians are unemployed and how many of those that are employed receive their full payment in time and how many receive their payment at all. Because this is another problem in modern Bulgaria where you don't just need to find a job, but also hope you get paid by your boss at the end of the month. If you don't get paid, you'll be stuck in your court cases against your employers for years which will eventually lead to nothing, thanks to the brilliant current legal system.

Go find out how many Bulgarians work in foreign countries and prefer to stay there and never go back. But constantly send money to their elders because old people's pensions aren't enough to keep them fed, not to mention paying for taxes and medication.

You want some examples of how far behind Bulgaria was back then?

It's the country that build and commissioned it's nuclear power plant in 1974 (1 of 2 on the Balkan peninsula) long before Yugoslavia, which worked and produced electricity back then. Now, the power plant's been undergoing decommissions since 2004.

It was one of the three countries in the world, along with the USSR and USA, that produced space food. Bulgaria had 2 cosmonauts sent to space. Members of the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences actively participated in the development and testing of the Soviet space shuttle Buran.

Bulgaria was, surprise surprise, one of the two countries in the world back then (the other being USA) that produced memory storage devices. Bulgaria also produced it's own computers. Surprise, surprise, all of this was shut down after the collapse of communism. I wonder why?

Throughout the Cold War, Bulgarian People's Army fielded between 120 000 to 200 000 active personnel. With modern equipment (for the appropriate era), Bulgaria had more tanks in it's storage than the UK. Ballistic missile system OTR-23 Oka was also a part of it's arsenal. This country even had reconnaissance variants of MiG-25 in it's air force actively in use. Go find the statistics of what and how many planes the Bulgarian air force possessed back then and what it has now.



So you think the things I just listed set Bulgaria decades behind Western countries? And this "sheer ignorance" you're talking about comes from people I've talked to, some of them lived through the whole communist period, some of them were born during that period. They experienced what communism was like first hand. And your information comes from... Hollywood? CNN? How many years have you spent living in an Eastern Bloc country before, during and/or after communism? To how many citizens living in those countries have you spoken to?

Two questions for you, experts on communism:

Why did Bulgaria undergo industrialization, power plants were built (one of them even being nuclear), illiteracy, poverty, crime, homelessness and unemployment problems were solved, strong armed forces for such a small country, high scientific and technological level, had cosmonauts sent to space, and a country that possessed heavy industrial factories - why did all this happen during communism, BUT, all of this, in the current democracy and capitalism is gone? Bulgaria is currently the poorest country in the EU. The purchasing power of the Bulgarian Lev during communism and the purchasing power of the Bulgarian Lev now, are immeasurable.

And the second question: Why did under the evil, murderous communism, Bulgaria's population increased approximately by 2 - 2.5 million people from 1945 to 1990, and dropped by more than the same amount for the past 30 years without the help of any wars, armed conflicts, natural disasters, global catastrophes or cataclysms. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Bulgaria Look at the chart and answer. But be careful, not even the biggest Bulgarian anti-communists figured it out yet.

Finally: if you think I am a some kind of a blind supporter of communism I'll tell you this - before I asked people what life was back then, the same people who experienced it first hand, I used to believe the exact same things you said - spying on neighbors, no food, misery, poverty, unemployment, mass murder even for telling a joke about the communist leader, illiteracy, bad healthcare, only high ranking communist party members lived well, state police spying on you everywhere... in other words my picture of this time was a big, dark, demonic hole. And while this isn't far from the truth for Romania during the 1980s, this portrayal has nothing to do with Bulgaria who found prosperity during communism and is now undergoing extinction under Western democracy and capitalism, despite the regime collapsing 30 years ago. Those are the words of people I talked to and of whom I base my opinion on. They also told me what the real problems of the country were back then - and they were none of the things you mentioned. This proved to me the world isn't a simple black & white scenario. If you want to draw proper conclusions, you can't deny those facts unless you want to lie to yourself.

I won't go into the deranged wall of text that at first glance still seems to defend those communist regimes. Seems like you're bulgarian. I grew up in Romania.
It would be interesting to see the age demographic you belong to. Usually in Romania for example theres a trend from the more retarded population that just tries to remember the facts that they had a job more emphasized for the groups of people that had families that were tied with the party controlled institutions.
Its mostly the now deep 50s past 60s or the retarded fresh 20s who hold selective alternative history lessons that still remember those times as something ok.
I've had an uncle that gave his live in 89 to the revolution to overthrow that fucking hellish regime.

" before I asked people what life was back then, the same people who experienced it first hand, I used to believe the exact same things you said - spying on neighbors, no food, misery, poverty, unemployment, mass murder even for telling a joke about the communist leader, illiteracy, bad healthcare, only high ranking communist party members lived well, state police spying on you everywhere"

I've yet to find the justification or invalidation to the realities you listed there.
I don't know how Bulgaria is collapsing since its not. EU is pumping megafucktons of funds in most countries in the area. Bulgaria is almost slightly ahead of Romania with far less resources which is just a testament of how deep and rotten the corruption bred from the communist times still runs in Romania.

[Domcho]

So to counter my examples you have brought "space food" and some personal anecdotes.

As for how loved Mao is by Chinese people, this is absolute nonsense. Half the people involved with his government was arrested after his death and thrown in jail and every policy he ever created has been abolished for very good reasons. As for "united China"... if by that you mean ended the civil war he had started then yes.

And yet Mao's portrait still stands at Tiananmen. Why don't you try convince the Chinese to take it down? Go on, I encourage you telling them how bad Mao is.

And look, I can't help with fixing your lack of knowledge, in fact, I am getting pretty tired of it. If you want to call the things I listed insignificant and anecdotes because they're causing you mental discomfort and contradict your beliefs, then so be it. These things happen when a person lives, not even in a parallel universe, but a straight up perpendicular one.

I won't go into the deranged wall of text that at first glance still seems to defend those communist regimes. Seems like you're bulgarian. I grew up in Romania.
It would be interesting to see the age demographic you belong to. Usually in Romania for example theres a trend from the more retarded population that just tries to remember the facts that they had a job more emphasized for the groups of people that had families that were tied with the party controlled institutions.
Its mostly the now deep 50s past 60s or the retarded fresh 20s who hold selective alternative history lessons that still remember those times as something ok.
I've had an uncle that gave his live in 89 to the revolution to overthrow that fucking hellish regime.

Bulgaria did not have a Ceausescu and didn't sink in deep debt towards Western countries like Romania did. I've been well informed about the misery at that time in Romania, the Securitate, how you couldn't trust you neighbor and I know how your Danube–Black sea canal was built. I've seen the canal multiple times by the way. If you don't want to read the "deranged" wall of text where I give examples of what Bulgaria was, compared to what Bulgaria is now, because your emotional feelings tell you it's impossible to have something positive under communism and you want to selectively pull out individual sentences out of the whole text you didn't even bother to read in the first place, then it's your own problem. If you can't tell - Romania's communism and Bulgaria's communism were far different.

" before I asked people what life was back then, the same people who experienced it first hand, I used to believe the exact same things you said - spying on neighbors, no food, misery, poverty, unemployment, mass murder even for telling a joke about the communist leader, illiteracy, bad healthcare, only high ranking communist party members lived well, state police spying on you everywhere"

I've yet to find the justification or invalidation to the realities you listed there.

If you read my next sentence from my previous post you'd find out I don't deny those things for Romania. But they have next to nothing in common with Bulgaria.

I don't know how Bulgaria is collapsing since its not. EU is pumping megafucktons of funds in most countries in the area. Bulgaria is almost slightly ahead of Romania with far less resources which is just a testament of how deep and rotten the corruption bred from the communist times still runs in Romania.

I have yet to see a Bulgarian who's been to Romania, has seen the differences, and shares your view. To give you a personal example, of "how prosperous and how far ahead of Romania", Bulgaria is: it literally costs me less money to travel to Constanta, which is 120 km from where I live, and buy all the medications I need for me and my family, from a Romanian pharmacy, than a Bulgarian one that is 1 minute away from my home.

[Najnaj]

And yet Mao's portrait still stands at Tiananmen. Why don't you try convince the Chinese to take it down? Go on, I encourage you telling them how bad Mao is.

And look, I can't help with fixing your lack of knowledge, in fact, I am getting pretty tired of it. If you want to call the things I listed insignificant and anecdotes because they're causing you mental discomfort and contradict your beliefs, then so be it. These things happen when a person lives, not even in a parallel universe, but a straight up perpendicular one.

umhu..he is the revolutionary hero whose entire legacy is being ignored. Nice face pic though.

Also, perhaps let go of the lame ass insults. They really aren't coming across the way you are imagining.

[Easo]

So what do they mean to you?

To me they are results of ruthless people striving for better world. Perhaps sometimes misguided - something that often can only be seen with benefit of hindsight.

You would rather they just shoot them instead?

Yes, that is much later. Stalin died in 1953, GULAG stopped existing in 1960; new world was so much tamer that Brezhnev didn't even have Khruschev shot when he was deposed.

Deportations are not genocide, simple enough.

So, 1949? Was his family classified as kulaks or bandits?

0.35% of total population died as result... right, total genocide. /s

There were public apologies in 1990s.

You're inventing lies in turn though.

Innocents executed to keep paranoid dictator in power.

Striving for better world? In what way? Accusations were totally made up, there were no judicial process, just execution comittees rubber stamping the punishment orders(dont tell me troikas were in any way actual judges). 100k Polish spies? That is just another level of ridiculous.

Oh, I would rather not have us occupied in the first place. Failing that, how about NOT drawing lists with people in Moscow with fake accusations? How about NOT fucking putting toddlers in ice cold cattle wagons? Too much to comprehend?

I guess 3 years is that much later to you. Agree to disagree.

Whether deportations are genocide, is debatable, but if that includes sending whole nation to die in Sibera, then yeah, it fucking is, no matter how differently you call it.

What does it matter what his family was classified as? But I think kulaks, iirc. Like before, everything was made up. In reality the deportees usually were the the elite of the society, well known people, artists, doctors, teachers, just rich people (though for Soviets even having hired farmhands put you into kulaks. Again, ridiculous, but hey, the whole idea of kolkhoz was ridiculous in the first place).

Maybe look up how many people from Caucasus died? Quarter to a third of population dying probably also mean nothing to you? Right, it does not. Or maybe try to remember that the smaller the nation, the harder it is to absord each loss? To Baltics loosing a thousand is a fucking lot. To a nation which managed to waste couple of million soldiers it probably is not understandable xD

Yes yes, I can see those... apologies... Dont remember Russia ever publicly apologising for that, nor making reparations. Especially funny seeing how long it took for Katyn to be finally admitted and even now there are people who are saying that Nazis did it, even after the official announcement.

Sure, Shalcker, I am lying. Whatever you say. Please join Kongodo in the lalala land where communism is coming back.

[NED funded]

Because rapid industrialization needed food to be provided to cities, and they considered private ownership to be exploitative and sub-optimal to that end (as well as resistant to progressive agricultural techniques).

So, they went into collectivisation spree as well as some other departures from previous policies, and some people said "screw you, we'll kill our cattle and burn our grain rather then give it to you"; and then there was bad summer which compounded previous decisions into famine.

Noone consciously starved people to death.

Surprise - 50s USSR had no famines either.

Uh, the USSR was exporting grain at the time. Record numbers of grain were registered in Kazakhstan and what burning of crops? They Kazakhs were a nomad people, they mostly didn't have crops to begin with.

[Felya]

Uh, the USSR was exporting grain at the time. Record numbers of grain were registered in the region of Kazakh and what burning of crops? They Kazakhs were a nomad people, they mostly didn't have crops to begin with.

Are you sure they didn’t congregate around Kazakhstan? Kinda of a silly name otherwise...

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Based on his interactions with his former superiors and allies, I don't think Stalin really cared all that much about communism to be honest.

He really didn’t care... if Lenin lived long enough, Stalin would have been responsible for his demise.

[NED funded]

Are you sure they didn’t congregate around Kazakhstan? Kinda of a silly name otherwise...

Its actually the Ural region. Not the kazakh region, which I'm not sure its even a thing. My bad, next time I'm checking that rather than writing on the walk.

[Felya]

Its actually the Ural region. Not the kazakh region, which I'm not sure its even a thing. My bad, next time I'm checking that rather than writing on the walk.

Uhm... yeah... it’s a thing... over 12 million Kazakhs occupy that former state of USSR.

Edit: oh and the common term in Russian for them, is Abrek.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrek

It’s like Red Neck in US... but, different connotations.

Edit 2: Racist connotations... they are darker skinned and more Asian than western Russians. You got a lot of racist shit about them. But... the music and the food is outstanding. If I could only eat one cuisine my whole life, it would be that region. Oh and the music...



Good stuff...

[Polyxo]

Are you sure they didn’t congregate around Kazakhstan? Kinda of a silly name otherwise...

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He really didn’t care... if Lenin lived long enough, Stalin would have been responsible for his demise.

Right, and that's what I'm basing my answer on. When he started being brutal, before he had pretty much total control, others around him were like "what the fuck?"

[Astalnar]

Do you think Stalin was a sociopath or just a good communist?

Aren't those two one and the same? I fail to see the difference.

[Mormolyce]

But I can say the same as a counter-argument. Anti-nationalistic propaganda and unsuccessful PR campaign. This brings us nowhere.

I mean, not really, Stalin's atrocities and all-round awfulness are a well documented historical fact.

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Aren't those two one and the same? I fail to see the difference.

I don't like Communism, certainly not the insanity of Stalinism, but that's a ridiculous statement.

[Shalcker]

Innocents executed to keep paranoid dictator in power.

This had nothing to do with "keeping him in power" though - they certainly didn't threaten his power in numbers like that.

It was result of a system that was built to support transformation of the country to industrial powerhouse after civil war and preparing for WW2. Imperfect system, obviously. But one that they thought mostly worked and that they were unwilling to eradicate and only wanted "adjust" (until Stalin's death, that is).

Striving for better world? In what way? Accusations were totally made up, there were no judicial process, just execution comittees rubber stamping the punishment orders(dont tell me troikas were in any way actual judges). 100k Polish spies? That is just another level of ridiculous.

Striving for better world of communist utopia. By promoting new thinking ("New Soviet Man" and all) and eradicating resistance to it.

"Kind word and a gun gets you much further then just a kind word" as the saying goes.

Oh, I would rather not have us occupied in the first place. Failing that, how about NOT drawing lists with people in Moscow with fake accusations? How about NOT fucking putting toddlers in ice cold cattle wagons? Too much to comprehend?

It was decided that those resisting and those supporting them should be removed; obviously that included their families.

As for "fake" accusations - are you saying most of those people were essentially selected at random with nothing behind it? Why select such small number of people then compared to general population?

Whether deportations are genocide, is debatable, but if that includes sending whole nation to die in Sibera, then yeah, it fucking is, no matter how differently you call it.

Except you weren't sent "as whole nation", and neither were people "sent to die" (as you see by how many actually lived through experience).

What does it matter what his family was classified as? But I think kulaks, iirc. Like before, everything was made up. In reality the deportees usually were the the elite of the society, well known people, artists, doctors, teachers, just rich people (though for Soviets even having hired farmhands put you into kulaks. Again, ridiculous, but hey, the whole idea of kolkhoz was ridiculous in the first place).

Yes, Soviets wanted to eradicate exploitation and repress exploitators, and sometimes seen hiring people as form of exploitation (and in those days it was true more often then not).

Compare it to like nowadays people look at 1%. If you would deprive them of their property today you certainly cut a lot of elite; most people would not shed a tear for them though.

Maybe look up how many people from Caucasus died? Quarter to a third of population dying probably also mean nothing to you? Right, it does not. Or maybe try to remember that the smaller the nation, the harder it is to absord each loss? To Baltics loosing a thousand is a fucking lot. To a nation which managed to waste couple of million soldiers it probably is not understandable xD

Caucasus happened during WW2. Tens of millions died during WW2, it's no surprise.

Yes yes, I can see those... apologies... Dont remember Russia ever publicly apologising for that, nor making reparations. Especially funny seeing how long it took for Katyn to be finally admitted and even now there are people who are saying that Nazis did it, even after the official announcement.

But if you look at actual available physical evidence rather then propaganda, it is quite obvious that indeed, Nazis did it.

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Uh, the USSR was exporting grain at the time. Record numbers of grain were registered in Kazakhstan and what burning of crops? They Kazakhs were a nomad people, they mostly didn't have crops to begin with.

Burning of crops happened in Ukraine; Kazakhstan was posting "record numbers of grain" because Khazakhs were forcibly settled to do agriculture rather then continue their nomad ways.

[ati87]

Stalin was a right-winger who used the idea of equality during a time that there was non to get into power. Once in power some people where more equal than others.

Stalin was like many right-wingers before and after him defined by his fear of whatever

[Shalcker]

Stalin was a right-winger who used the idea of equality during a time that there was non to get into power. Once in power some people where more equal than others.

Stalin was like many right-wingers before and after him defined by his fear of whatever

Fear isn't right-wing concept; you don't become right-winger just by having dictator-like powers.

[Astalnar]

I don't like Communism, certainly not the insanity of Stalinism, but that's a ridiculous statement.

The fact that you find it ridiculous, doesn't make it any less true.

[Machismo]

The fact that you find it ridiculous, doesn't make it any less true.

It also doesn't make it true, so maybe you have evidence to go along with that statement? Then again, maybe not...