Why Bfa is the best expansion

[Eggroll]

I think both of you are correct. WoD class design was bad, but the pruning didn't get to the point where it was super boring. I genuinely enjoyed playing my Brewmaster in WoD. Mind you I still enjoyed it less than my least favorite job in FFXIV, but it was still more entertaining than any class in BfA beta.

The WoD disc priest likes to have a word with you...

[Gungnir]

The entire reason WoD pruning happened was to make way for those auxiliary progression systems. And considering how lackluster those progression systems are in terms of their impact of the core mechanics of a class, there's really not much separating WoD from BfA.

Unless of course, you want to argue that Azerite Armor, for example, is so impactful that it fundamentally changes the core kit.

WoD kits weren't complete either. Things were just ripped out, and you were left with a gaping wound all expansion. We still haven't recovered from that, even with the expansion-specific bandaids. Niche utility has been scrapped. WoD's axing of core rotational abilities paved the way for spec redesigns, etc.

WoD set the stage for BfA. You might not like it, but it's true. And honestly, if you think WoD class design was "okay," you're pretty far removed from reality.

Just to point out, you literally framed my entire point within your own message.
WoD pruning was a foundation laid out for the auxiliary progression systems, but didn't yet have them. WoD didn't have half the class buried beneath a ton of arbitrary bullshit and it still had a more complete kit than any subsequent expansion following it.
Secondly, "we still haven't recovered, yeah no shit we haven't because it's the path Blizzard is taking from now on. But that also doesn't take away from the point that we lost more in Legion and BfA than we did in WoD.

Thus, class design was superior to Legion and BfA.
I'm also not even fucking sure why you're trying to twist my posts into saying that WoD design was anywhere near to being good, it was just BETTER than both Legion and BfA.
I think you'd do better at argumenting your points if you didn't resort to every fallacy under the sun just because you're apparently butthurt and/or willfully obtuse.

I think both of you are correct. WoD class design was bad, but the pruning didn't get to the point where it was super boring. I genuinely enjoyed playing my Brewmaster in WoD. Mind you I still enjoyed it less than my least favorite job in FFXIV, but it was still more entertaining than any class in BfA beta.

This is a good post, as I've never said that WoD design was good, it was just better than the following two expansions.
Back in WoD I atleast had a fair few specs I truly enjoyed playing, and now I've actually unsubbed for the first time in forever as I couldn't find a single spec that I enjoyed playing in BfA.

[Donatello Trumpi]

And you base that opinion on what? Single class? Single spec? Well, no dude, you gotta understand whole picture. Legion didn't give you meaningful abilities, it was "just another unrelated button to press" which some classes still have as talents.

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[/SIZE]

Thats bullshit. Enhancement artifact skill was essential to the spec. Havocs was essential, bursty and fun. Fire mages was essential (but got baked into talents in legion). Rets was essential for burst and made the spec flow better. It got baked too intlo the spec.

Second pet for bm was very fun and unique.
And theres for sure more..

[Vasoka]

Surely not the best, but not the worst either.

[Big Thanks]

Benthic gear
Demon Hunter PvP
Azerite Essenses
Demon Hunter AoE in Mythic Dungeons

All things i love.
The ONE and only thing i hate is the 50% nerf to all azerite traits in PvP.

[Toubacos]

The WoD disc priest likes to have a word with you...

Not that many people would like a word in that case since it was WoD xD

[sam86]

Reading the post and seeing the post count, this thread is like a gazelle in a lion's den--it's about to get torn to bits.

All I'll say is, at least it's better than WoD.

agree
it puzzle me why even compare it with selfie exp

[unbound]

0.01/10

/10char

Oh come on...you are being far too generous.

[Eggroll]

Not that many people would like a word in that case since it was WoD xD

Maybe I don't really understand your response, but I was replying to

Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
I think both of you are correct. WoD class design was bad, but the pruning didn't get to the point where it was super boring.

[Dellis0991]

Your name is literally Kekels so I know you here on some straight bullshit.

Also the class designs in this expansion turned hunter and shamans into noodle armed bitches.

[Wildberry]

Just to point out, you literally framed my entire point within your own message.
WoD pruning was a foundation laid out for the auxiliary progression systems, but didn't yet have them.

You really don't get the point I'm making here, do you?

The auxiliary progression systems are not that impactful. WoD had more pruning on a number of classes, despite your later claim, so minor pruning and un-impactful auxiliary systems aren't enough to differentiate WoD from the latter two.

Think about it this way, if we're plotting class design on a graph, WoD's not that far away from both Legion and BfA.

WoD didn't have half the class buried beneath a ton of arbitrary bullshit

Again, the "arbitrary bullshit" is not nearly as impactful as you're claiming it is. I dislike these systems too, but they simply do not have the effect on class kits and cores that you're claiming.

it still had a more complete kit than any subsequent expansion following it.

And yet those kits were woefully incomplete in comparison to other expansions. Again, WoD is much closer to Legion/BfA than any other expansion.

Thus, class design was superior to Legion and BfA.
I'm also not even fucking sure why you're trying to twist my posts into saying that WoD design was anywhere near to being good, it was just BETTER than both Legion and BfA.

Why don't you simmer down for a moment and re-read my post, big guy. I never claimed that you said "WoD design was anywhere near being good," I specifically used "okay" in quotes, since that's how you described it. I used your exact words because I knew you'd throw a hissy fit if I said anything else.

And with that out of the way, you're still missing the core point of my argument which is that the same ideas which have made Legion and BfA classes suck were mostly present during WoD.

I think you'd do better at argumenting your points if you didn't resort to every fallacy under the sun just because you're apparently butthurt and/or willfully obtuse.

Please list the fallacies I've used. I'm 100% serious, go quote my responses and apply labels to them. If you can't do that, try getting off from Reddit for five seconds and realize that screaming "fallacy" during a profanity-laced tirade doesn't substitute having an actual argument.

[matrix123mko]

I disagree on story and class design.

[Wildberry]

I think both of you are correct. WoD class design was bad, but the pruning didn't get to the point where it was super boring. I genuinely enjoyed playing my Brewmaster in WoD. Mind you I still enjoyed it less than my least favorite job in FFXIV, but it was still more entertaining than any class in BfA beta.

Eh, you might've felt that way. Try being, for example, a warrior. Really cool to have core abilities stripped away, niche utility scrapped, and suffer a minor redesign.

[kaminaris]

"Well actually it's exactly the opposite of reality because I say so!"

Complaints about "bloat" in MoP were nowhere near comparable to complaints about pruning from WoD onwards. Most class-based complaints were regarding other classes (ie, "why can casters cast and move?!). Beyond obvious differences, gripes about MoP class design didn't dominate the MoP beta forums, for example. Since WoD, the official beta forums are spammed with complaints regarding class design.

Again, the lead game designer never had to "inb4" himself on class design in Q&As, etc.

But hey, with a memory like yours, no wonder you're trying to pretend class design is okay. 2-3 buttons must be much easier for you to keep track of.

I'm done here, you're clearly not posting in good faith. All I can leave you with is that modern class design is garbage, most people agree with me, and even the Devs have finally been forced to admit that they made a mistake.

P.S. I never claimed MoP had "perfect" class design. Have fun knocking down strawmen, though.

Sure bud, you are the voice of majority, how come blizzard decided otherwise? Surely because they don't give a fuq and don't look at statistics

Mop had complaints about tanks dealing horrendous amount of damage, such as BDK being able to solo 10 players.
Affli lock being able to pull insane dps with multitarget situations
BM hunter being able to delete someone from arena with one button.
Unlimited mobility casters.
And TONS of other issues.

Devs addmited only that removing shared spells from classes was mistake, and don't think they are going back to that garbage that was before, they are most likely only add some shared spells back with slight tweak.

[Wildberry]

@kaminaris
Are you still trying to pretend that the complaints during MoP were equal to the complaints we've seen since WoD? Very tired routine, and completely divorced from reality.

Enjoy the current, garbage classes. I hope for your sake that you're right and 9.0 doesn't make them too complex. It'd be awful to strain that good memory of yours.

[kaminaris]

Then your memory must reaaaally be bad af, because how can you forget the glorious shitstorm that followed Ion's announcement on Polygon that flying will not be added to WoD, nor any following xpac? Seriously.

People coomplained like hell about the valor points grind in MoP, when, compared to Legion AP and Lego grind, it was a joke. And WoD classed WERE horrible. Remember discipline priest in WoD? 1 button class: PW: Shield, PW: Shield, PW: Shield, PW: Shield,PW: Shield,PW: Shield,PW: Shield, PW: Shield, PW: Shield, PW: Shield, .....PW: Shield, PW: Shield, PW: Shield, PW: Shield, ....

Which they never bothered to fix in WoD. The bad thing was, that it was too good not to have in raids, but it was so unpleasant to play. But hey, player enjoyment doesn't mean shit to these devs.

That was one shitstorm. Legion besides camera changes had unlimited epic shitstorms about: Swapping specs, Legendary system acquision, Legendary softcap.

Valor points? You sure you remember that correctly? Cause I don't think so.
There was a weekly cap of 3k
Scenario + dungeon daily gave you 200.
Each subsequent scenario run gave you 70. - which was fast.

Sure people complained about it but it was nowhere near as grindfest as legendaries. Nor I don't remember any shitstorm about it of that magnitude.

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@kaminaris
Are you still trying to pretend that the complaints during MoP were equal to the complaints we've seen since WoD? Very tired routine, and completely divorced from reality.

Enjoy the current, garbage classes. I hope for your sake that you're right and 9.0 doesn't make them too complex. It'd be awful to strain that good memory of yours.

I don't try to do anything I remember things how they were without rose-tinted glasses like you have. It is you who needs to look at reality:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUoEk3KJMK0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50o5LfxJtlA

THIS was garbage class design. Everything was mess.

[Eggroll]

That was one shitstorm. Legion besides camera changes had unlimited epic shitstorms about: Swapping specs, Legendary system acquision, Legendary softcap.

Valor points? You sure you remember that correctly? Cause I don't think so.
There was a weekly cap of 3k
Scenario + dungeon daily gave you 200.
Each subsequent scenario run gave you 70. - which was fast.

Sure people complained about it but it was nowhere near as grindfest as legendaries. Nor I don't remember any shitstorm about it of that magnitude.

That was exactly what I was saying. MoP had people quite severely complaining about the valor grind and reputation gated items, so much that the devs changed it, tbh I can't exactly remember, but it was something with the Golden Lotus rep etc...

And yes, compared to the Legion grind the MoP grind was a joke. I don't think players back in MoP would have swallowed the Legion grind..., and yes, Legion with AP and Artifacts was horrible, I agree.

[Sithalos]

Looks at post count. Rolls eyes.

1/10

[Wildberry]

I don't try to do anything I remember things how they were without rose-tinted glasses like you have. It is you who needs to look at reality:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUoEk3KJMK0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50o5LfxJtlA

THIS was garbage class design. Everything was mess.

So your argument is that because people cheesed fights, and Aff was overtuned for multidotting, the complaints about MoP's class mechanics were equal to the complaints about class mechanics from WoD onward?

Why don't you go look at an action bar from WoD, Legion or BfA and tell me that MoP is worse than that.

[Ramz]

The only good thing they did was letting us play Zandalari, and overall Zandalari content. But as a die hard troll fan I gotta say that they still kipped a lot of stuff that was defining Zandalari and which was ignored in the leveling content, because they had to add asspull blood trolls to waste time on.