AMD 3000 reviews are out

[stevenho]

Intel got beat in the price/performance game.
Time to see those price cuts, just in time for an upgrade.
YUM

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Could somebody please sum up what is known so far about power consumption and heat of those new 7nm CPUs?

I understand they are "close" or even "equal" with current Intel CPUs in gaming performance...which is real great if you consider that Intel is basically running a 6 year old architecture still. I am sorely disappointed by Intel's lack of innovation over the last half a decade....but now that AMD has finally caught up to them and is running a smaller lithography, can we expect lower power consumption and therefore lower heat generation? I took a brief look at the reviews in the OP...and the information on this topic is really lacking.

My simple question is this: Is there a CPU in this new AMD lineup that is on par performace wise with an ~8700K but consumes NOTABLY less power (~30%)? That would be a CPU i would consider upgrading to. Considering they are 7nm instead of 14+ in the Intel lineup one would think an improvement like this possible over a years old competitor CPU.

Yeah they are much more efficient

[Gray_Matter]

Nah its more like 20% (first to second gen ryzen was 5% tops), also the reason this is hard to believe is because the 9900k has a much higher stock boost clock than my 8700k, i think its like 4.7ghz.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/14605...ing-the-bar/20

Gaming Performance

When it comes to gaming performance, the 9700K and 9900K remain the best performing CPUs on the market. Even without an IPC advantage anymore, Intel's high clockspeeds and supporting elements such as the core ringbus still give them the best performance in the kind of lightly-threaded and tightly-threaded scenarios that games often follow.

That being said, the new 3700X and 3900X are posting enormous improvements over the 2700X. And we can confirm AMD’s claims of up to 30-35% better performance in some games over the 2700X. So AMD has not been standing still.

Ultimately, while AMD still lags behind Intel in gaming performance, the gap has narrowed immensely, to the point that Ryzen CPUs are no longer something to be dismissed if you want to have a high-end gaming machine. Intel's performance advantage is rather limited here – and for the power-conscientious, AMD is delivering better efficiency at this point – so while they may not always win out as the very best choice for absolute peak gaming performance, the 3rd gen Ryzens are still very much a very viable option worth considering.

Look at the bolded part. That's between a 2700X and a 3700X.

[Fascinate]

https://www.anandtech.com/show/14605...ing-the-bar/20



Look at the bolded part. That's between a 2700X and a 3700X.

Oh ive seen the reviews and know what these chips are, but again you are discounting the massive clockspeed disadvantage that they are going to have when taking overclocking into consideration, which coincidentally is the most important factor when talking mmorpg performance. AMD did a good job here they pretty much matched stock 8700k performance for 250, but thats also part of the problem these chips perform better at stock then overclocked (per level1tech youtube review) so out of the box is what you are gonna get and thats all.

[Drusin]

I just want to know when the 64 core 128 thread Zen2 Threadripper is coming plz&ty

[Fascinate]

One other odd thing wendell noted is to be very careful with thermal paste application on ryzen 3000 as he noticed the xfr was not boosting properly if the paste wasnt applied perfectly even (should be fine on a stock cooler with pre applied paste id imagine).\

[Babadoo]

The fact that AMD has proper 8c/16t and 12c/24t CPUs is all that we need to know. All the shit with Intel having to disable their HT gonna hurt them SOOOO MUCH when new consoles are released as everything will be built around having atleast 8c/16t.

[Dacien]

One other odd thing wendell noted is to be very careful with thermal paste application on ryzen 3000 as he noticed the xfr was not boosting properly if the paste wasnt applied perfectly even (should be fine on a stock cooler with pre applied paste id imagine).\

As someone who's re-pasted all the laptops I've owned over the years, the spread method with a straight razor is ingrained in my blood. It's mandatory for direct-die pasting, but I'm going to continue the tradition with my new desktop, whenever that gets built.

[Fascinate]

As someone who's re-pasted all the laptops I've owned over the years, the spread method with a straight razor is ingrained in my blood. It's mandatory for direct-die pasting, but I'm going to continue the tradition with my new desktop, whenever that gets built.

Good on you, im lazy af and still just do the pea method lol.

[Gray_Matter]

Age has nothing to do with it. It simply MUST be executed in order. Cant farm that out to multiple threads.

Please tell me what has to be executed in a specific order? I keep hearing people say this about MMO's but I have yet to hear a reasonable example of something that is time consuming CPU wise and that needs to be executed in a specific order.

[Fascinate]

Please tell me what has to be executed in a specific order? I keep hearing people say this about MMO's but I have yet to hear a reasonable example of something that is time consuming CPU wise and that needs to be executed in a specific order.

I kid you not i had a actual WoW programmer tell me this exact same thing a few years ago in game, so kagthul is not wrong here. I am not a programmer on any level so i also dont know, just that its a thing....probably has to do with combat numbers or something along those lines.

[Manakuski]

It's a good thing that AMD brings competition with their new Ryzen 3000 lineup. Still there's no CPU on the market that would justify me upgrading my i7 7700k, at 1440p i wouldn't really gain much FPS in any game at all, since i can run this at 4,8ghz overclocked without any problems. Makes me a bit sad tbh. I pretty much only game on my PC anyway.

I'm glad that these are affordable for people though and this will also prompt intel to come up with something new and hopefully something that will justify me to upgrade.

[Gray_Matter]

Oh ive seen the reviews and know what these chips are, but again you are discounting the massive clockspeed disadvantage that they are going to have when taking overclocking into consideration, which coincidentally is the most important factor when talking mmorpg performance. AMD did a good job here they pretty much matched stock 8700k performance for 250, but thats also part of the problem these chips perform better at stock then overclocked (per level1tech youtube review) so out of the box is what you are gonna get and thats all.

My post had nothing to do with comparing against Intel. You said that the performance gain from a 1700 (1st gen) to a 3600 (3rd gen) was 20% so I posted an article stating that they were seeing a 30-35% gain in some games over the 2700X. That's 2nd to 3rd gen, not 1st to 3rd gen.

[Fascinate]

My post had nothing to do with comparing against Intel. You said that the performance gain from a 1700 (1st gen) to a 3600 (3rd gen) was 20% so I posted an article stating that they were seeing a 30-35% gain in some games over the 2700X. That's 2nd to 3rd gen, not 1st to 3rd gen.

Ya thats going to vary game by game my guy, its ~10% faster than a 2700x.
https://www.techpowerup.com/review/a...-3700x/23.html

Value and Conclusion
The AMD Ryzen 7 3700X sells for $330.
Beats Core i7-9700K in applications, matches i9-9900K
Gaming performance significantly improved, 10% over previous generation

[chazus]

Please tell me what has to be executed in a specific order? I keep hearing people say this about MMO's but I have yet to hear a reasonable example of something that is time consuming CPU wise and that needs to be executed in a specific order.

I kid you not i had a actual WoW programmer tell me this exact same thing a few years ago in game, so kagthul is not wrong here. I am not a programmer on any level so i also dont know, just that its a thing....probably has to do with combat numbers or something along those lines.

I believe it has to do with Draw Calls, from what I've heard most people explain it (and it's been explained hundreds of times on here). It's just sort of the nature of that aspect of game code and how it works. It's the main reason IPC is the biggest effect in wow for performance. They've sorted out ways to farm other stuff out to multiple threads, but there are certain aspects that simply cannot be, at least not easily.

[Kagthul]

Please tell me what has to be executed in a specific order? I keep hearing people say this about MMO's but I have yet to hear a reasonable example of something that is time consuming CPU wise and that needs to be executed in a specific order.

then you haven't read almost any of the posts on this topic going back at least three years. Certainly at least a dozen of them where I and others have put some variation of what is about to follow out there:

Its a secure client server game.

The locations of every object on the screen come through a single thread: the network thread. It cant be broken up into separate threads.

Most online games are NOT secure client/server.

Object movement is largely handled on your client (and can therefore be handed off to multiple threads) - even enemy movement, which is handled by predictive algorithms. (Player A was moving in this direction, and is likey to continue in this direction, etc) Those, too, can be broken up into lots of threads. This is why in a lot of non-secure games youll see people rubberbanding all over the fucking place, because your client predicted they would run in direction A, and they went in direction C instead, and when your client finally gets an update, it tries to compensate. Thus, rubberbanding.

But that cant be done in most MMOs.

Your computer has literaly ZERO say in where objects are, how they are moving, and what they are doing.

The calculations for what is where (and the draw calls issued based on that) come directly from the server and have to be processes in the order they are received. If they aren't, your client's calculations will no longer match the servers and the server will boot you. (This actually can still happen; sometimes when flying in Draenor, for instance, if you dismount mid-air, particularly in your garrison, the server will freak out and disconnect you because it looks like you're cheating - moving too fast or flying in areas you cant. Used to happen to me quite regularly).

The recent multi-threaded enhancements basically changed two things:

The main thread no longer has to issue draw calls for subordinate particles. Prior to this, the main thread wasn't just responsible for issuing draw calls for the center of, say, an Ice Storm, but for every single particle in the Ice Storm (or Rain of Fire, etc). This was de-coupled in that patch, which is one of the things that brought minimum fps up so much - now the main thread only has to issue a draw call for the center particle, and then the other bits can be spun off to a new thread.

Lighting was also heavily overhauled. Prior to this, shadows were treated as objects. So every single shadow had to have a draw call from the main thread, and had to query the server for where the shadows should be.

Now light sources are allowed to be spun off to the client. So all it has to get from the server is "there is a light here that casts X, Y, Z" and then it can spin off to a single thread. Thats actually why capital cities were so crushing on performance, because not only did your client have to wait to get updates on all those players and NPCs, but every single shadow they cast and every single particle of every effect they generated.

But the secure client server nature, where the draw calls can only be processed for objects controlled by the server in the order in which they are received (so that every single player is seeing the same things in the same order, which is pretty vitally important for, say, raiding, or Arena), limits MMOs and a few other games very heavily to single-thread performance. Its one of the reasons PUBG is so bad on performance - its a secure client-server game. When there's 100 people in the starting area, it slows to a crawl on the toughest hardware. Thats why.

Thats also why every other MMO under the sun has the same issues and various companies have tried different methods to "fix" it.

FF15 went with tiny party sizes (which were expanded when PS3 support was dropped, but are still smaller than most MMOs) and LOTS of shards of each zone so that you're never in an over-crowded space.

ESO went with heavy phasing.

GW2 did.. nothing. Which is why RvRvR is a fucking slideshow.

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Additional:

Another reason is that a lot of the calculations that your client does for a game like WoW or another MMO are linear in nature. For instance, you cant solve C+D = E, when the first part of the equation is A+B = C. Handing off that second calculation to a second thread would be pointless, as it would just sit idle waiting for the answer to the first calculation (and can actually incur a performance penalty if you it is sititng on another thread, as the information then has to be sent to that thread, instead of the original thread just processing in sequence.)

Thats EXTREMELY basic but is fairly true.

Not everything can be infinitely paralelized.

You probably cant find it now (because the WoW forums changed) but a little over a year ago one of the devs hopped into a thread (that started in General, i think, and was them moved to Games, Gaming and Hardware in Off Topic) and explained it in both highly technical terms and with a good "TLDR for the average preson".

No matter how hard you try, not all code can be made parallel.

[chazus]

So I'm still interested in upgrading my 3570K. I'm eyeing the 3600. Are most B450 boards compatible if I buy one now or do I need a 500 series board?

[Dacien]

-snip-

That was an interesting read.

[Fascinate]

For sure @Kagthul, good stuff!

[Dacien]

So I'm still interested in upgrading my 3570K. I'm eyeing the 3600. Are most B450 boards compatible if I buy one now or do I need a 500 series board?

They're all compatible, but I'd highly recommend something from MSI if you're looking at B450, because they have Bios Flash Buttons. Tomahawk or Pro Carbon are both really solid choices imo, as someone who has spent an inordinate amount of time watching Buildzoid videos etc.

[Fascinate]

So I'm still interested in upgrading my 3570K. I'm eyeing the 3600. Are most B450 boards compatible if I buy one now or do I need a 500 series board?

Yep, but be aware the x570's have some "overboost" feature that would allow the 3600 non x to clock higher than on b450, as long as you got lucky with your cpu that is. But for the price difference id def go with b450, something like the tomahawk from msi seems everyone recommends that board.