AMD 3000 reviews are out

[Kagthul]

So I'm still interested in upgrading my 3570K. I'm eyeing the 3600. Are most B450 boards compatible if I buy one now or do I need a 500 series board?

Only potential compatability issue could be a BIOS flash required.

However, in my experience, when i built my sons rig and our new HTPC, the box had a sticker on it "BIOS upgraded/Ryzen 2000 ready". (I went with B350 at the time because they were cheaper and neither rig needed the best of the best).

As long as you check for that, B450 boards are fully compatible with Ryzen 3.

Ill second the MSI recommendation. My wife's (Intel) rig has a Tomahawk in it, its quite robust.

If you're going to go with mITX, though, i'd recommend ASUS. Otherwise, MSI's offerings are just as good (their mITX board has junky power delivery) and cheaper.

[Ahovv]

So I'm still interested in upgrading my 3570K. I'm eyeing the 3600. Are most B450 boards compatible if I buy one now or do I need a 500 series board?

I would say most. You need to check the specific board to check for a compatibility bios update.

[Kagthul]

That was an interesting read.

Its extremely basic, but is the distilled version of what we got from the Dev and was supported by a few of the forum regulars in GG&H who are actual, honest-to-god codemonkeys.

[Ange]

Something like this with a WoW benchmark would be great to compare the last 8 years of CPU generations. AFAIK F1 multithreading is miles above what WoW does, the differences in the charts might be much smaller and thats even worse.

https://www.gamersnexus.net/hwreview...8700k-and-more

Intel i7-9700K vs. 8700K - F1 2018 Benchmark

F1 2018 produces extremely high framerates, something not as commonly found in other titles. This game becomes CPU bound rapidly, as our RTX 2080 Ti allows all of these CPUs to fully stretch their legs, as illustrated by the 7980XE at 4.6GHz hitting 307FPS AVG. The point is that our point of bottlenecking is elevated enough to really look at performance differences.

[Gray_Matter]

I kid you not i had a actual WoW programmer tell me this exact same thing a few years ago in game, so kagthul is not wrong here. I am not a programmer on any level so i also dont know, just that its a thing....probably has to do with combat numbers or something along those lines.

I said this here before. There are different ways of using multiple threads. There are simple cases. For example, Microsoft Word can print in the background. They do this by passing the whole printing action off to another thread. This wasn't always the case with word processing applications. In the early days they use to lock up while the printed. This is what a lot of people think about when they refer to multi-threading games but it's the least used approach. What happens far more often is that people hand off specific tasks to background threads or use multiple threads for block processing.

Let me give you an example. Lets say we had 3 spells that were cast in a game. It makes sense that we have to do all 3 of these in sequence. Each spell won't involve be a single calculation, it will have many calculations. Lets say then that each spell involved 12000 calculations. This might sound like a lot but I can do millions of calculations on my PC in a single thread. Obviously this depends on the type of calculation. Some (e.g. division, roots and powers) are more difficult. This might sound like a situation where we can't do any threading but that's not the case, we could do each set of calculations in different threads. If I had a 6 core computer I could break these 12000 calculations into 6 threads with each thread doing 2000 calculations. That would mean that my 3 operations of 12000 calculations each that I have to do in sequence could be done in the same time as 6000 calculations because I have 6 cores. In reality it's not this simple because we have things like context switches and potential race conditions that impact performance.

No offense intended for your WOW programmer but developers are all at different levels. Only a few of the developers at my company are capable of dealing with threaded programming. Most of them have no idea what is involved. We don't know how senior that programmer was or what area of the code they typically worked on.

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Ya thats going to vary game by game my guy, its ~10% faster than a 2700x.

Exactly, so the point stands. We don't know how much faster the processor will be with WOW until someone benchmarks it.

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I believe it has to do with Draw Calls, from what I've heard most people explain it (and it's been explained hundreds of times on here). It's just sort of the nature of that aspect of game code and how it works. It's the main reason IPC is the biggest effect in wow for performance. They've sorted out ways to farm other stuff out to multiple threads, but there are certain aspects that simply cannot be, at least not easily.

This is a design problem and not a limitation with development in general. There are often certain operations that have to be done in the main thread. Developers would often do certain work in the main thread because they had an operation that formed part of that work that needed to be in the main thread. Threading isn't easy so developers tend to code in a linear way. Do A, then B and then C. It's often possible to perform A in multiple threads and C in multiple threads even when B has to be performed in a single thread. You will see this happening more and more as engines start taking advantage of multiple threads.

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...

No matter how hard you try, not all code can be made parallel.

Please the top of this post. What you see as a calculation isn't a single calculation, it's thousands of calculations. Operations happen in sequence but that doesn't mean that we can't parallelize each of those operations. For example, I just tested and I can do 50 million multiplications and then divisions on a double precision number in about a second on my PC. If those operations that people need to be performed in sequence were simple calculations then modern computers would be able to thousands of frames per second on a single thread. Those things that you see as a "A" in your example above are actually a sequence of calculations that apply to many different numbers. Those calculations can easily be performed in multiple threads.

[Moozart]

I watched buildzoid video of x570 mobos vs previous generations and he explained clearly there are no justification whatsoever ever to pick any of these mobos other than pcie gen 4, with that matter settled I'm still torn out between 3900 and 3700 in terms of workload and gaming. I might wait until Christmas they might be deals for both of them to choose one.

But in general pretty exciting reviews and all suggested AMD over intel.

The down side of this is unless you have a Gen 1/2 Ryzen CPU to upgrade the bios on the X470 you are SOL for the most part. Its going to be awhile before older boards are shipping with the new bios and even then you have to hope the one you order is from somewhere still shipping old stock.

I am explaining in more Detail as SOME people may not know this, You cant use the new CPU to upgrade the bios as the current bios will never boot up. To upgrade the bios on these you need an older compatible version of the cpus , build the system, upgrade the bios, take the old ryzen out and replace it with your new one and move on.

This is a great option for someone upgrading CPUs not for someone starting fresh.

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I would say most. You need to check the specific board to check for a compatibility bios update.

Please refer to the top part of this post.

[chazus]

This is a design problem and not a limitation with development in general.

Well, yeah. I mean it's a problem mostly with WoW, simply because every game is written uniquely. I'm not saying it's impossible, just doesn't work for how it's set up.

Please the top of this post. ... Those calculations can easily be performed in multiple threads.

He's not wrong, though. That's the long version of what I was saying. It's how it's written, and cannot be 'fixed' really with how it's designed.

I mean, seriously, after 15 years, and having been in the hands of thousands of coders... If it were doable to make massive leaps in performance.. Don't you think it'd be done by now? It's a code design problem that is likely blocked by a management level decision somewhere. Just because you CAN do something different/better, doesn't mean you should. There's more to design than simply 'do it better'

[Kagthul]

Please the top of this post. What you see as a calculation isn't a single calculation, it's thousands of calculations. Operations happen in sequence but that doesn't mean that we can't parallelize each of those operations.

When one of those operations requires the outcome of other operations before it can start, it does, in fact, mean you cant parallelize those operations.

I swear to god its like talking to a wall.

As for how high up said Dev was.. he was the guy leading the work on DX12 optimization - I.E. the "mutltithreaded performance enhancements" in 8.1. Theyd been working on that stuff since before work on BfA even started.

Well, yeah. I mean it's a problem mostly with WoW,

Its endemic to the entire genre.

I literally cant think of an MMO (that is actually "massive" - a game like Destiny 2 doesn't count, IMO, as you're never in an area with more than 10 other people) that doesn't suffer from it.

Its just the nature of having to wait on info from the server and forced reconciliation between the client and server.

[Gray_Matter]

Well, yeah. I mean it's a problem mostly with WoW, simply because every game is written uniquely. I'm not saying it's impossible, just doesn't work for how it's set up.

He's not wrong, though. That's the long version of what I was saying. It's how it's written, and cannot be 'fixed' really with how it's designed.

I mean, seriously, after 15 years, and having been in the hands of thousands of coders... If it were doable to make massive leaps in performance.. Don't you think it'd be done by now? It's a code design problem that is likely blocked by a management level decision somewhere. Just because you CAN do something different/better, doesn't mean you should. There's more to design than simply 'do it better'

Of course, WOW has an ancient code in it and that's one of the problems with WOW in general. WOW being around for 15 years is also one of it's selling points. Replacing blocks of code is not a simple undertaking. We still have part of our system that are 15 years old. Rewriting that code isn't free. Everything has an opportunity cost. If you take your best developers and get them to work on a part of the system for 18 months then that means that they can't work on other parts of the system for 18 months.

I am pretty sure that that have done quite a few of the simple optimizations. WOW using AVX tells us that they have. At some point, though, they will have to start optimizing the more difficult parts if they haven't already. We aren't going to see huge gains in single thread performance. Intel can't build 7nm monolithic dies. That means that we are sort of at the limit of what we can expect in terms of single thread performance. If WOW wants to be around for another 10 years then they will have to start making bigger changes, like the recent DX12 ones. I can't see how they would not be aware of that. Unfortunately for them, they are dealing with some really old code mixed in with newer code and code that has been worked on by a large number of developers which makes it really difficult.

My point was that these sort of problems are design issues, not technical limitations. Its not easy but often some smart design changes can see massive leaps in performance. It might take a couple of years for those design changes to be realized but they are possible.

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When one of those operations requires the outcome of other operations before it can start, it does, in fact, mean you cant parallelize those operations.

I swear to god its like talking to a wall.

Are you trying to tell me that each one of those operations is a single calculation that is dependent on 500 000 other calculations (50 million calculations at 100 FPS) and all of these calculations have to performed in serial?

As for how high up said Dev was.. he was the guy leading the work on DX12 optimization - I.E. the "mutltithreaded performance enhancements" in 8.1. Theyd been working on that stuff since before work on BfA even started.

So you talked to the same guy as Fascinate?

[Linkedblade]

So I'm still interested in upgrading my 3570K. I'm eyeing the 3600. Are most B450 boards compatible if I buy one now or do I need a 500 series board?

According to this it should just work:



You'll just be missing out on the x570 features like pci gen 4

[Nozuka]

You can likely get a "Bootkit" from AMD too. (they will lend you a CPU, that you'll have to send back afterwards.) Although the text has not been updated for Ryzen 3000 yet.

https://www.amd.com/en/support/kb/faq/pa-100

But i'm too lazy and impatient for that.

[americandavey]

Linus mentioned one thing that bugs me about these new motherboards and that's the little fans they have on them. You just know there's going to be a motherboard or two where fan failure is a common problem. For the rest it's still a concern as you use them for years.

I suppose I could always just get an x470 or b450 motherboard instead considering I highly doubt pcie 4.0 will become relevant anytime soon to someone that just plays games on their computer.

Yeah not a big fan of those little fans. Saw a reviewer show a clip of the X570 Aorus Master, that little fan was loud as hell. The fan ran at 100% even at idle.

[Temp name]

Yeah not a big fan of those little fans. Saw a reviewer show a clip of the X570 Aorus Master, that little fan was loud as hell. The fan ran at 100% even at idle.

Small, quick fans are always going to be loud and whiney. If I were going to go with an X570 board I'd get one of the like.. 2 or 3 that exist that don't have a fan and just have a *huge* heatsink. Even if those boards are like 300 USD

[Nozuka]

Yeah not a big fan of those little fans. Saw a reviewer show a clip of the X570 Aorus Master, that little fan was loud as hell. The fan ran at 100% even at idle.

sounds like a configuration error. most of them have several fan profiles to choose from.

at least other reviews said the fan was never audible. (although it might now have been this specific board.)

[Thunderball]

So I'm still interested in upgrading my 3570K. I'm eyeing the 3600. Are most B450 boards compatible if I buy one now or do I need a 500 series board?

If it can handle 2600 it will be able to handle 3600. Newer CPUs pull less power that Ryzen 2 counterparts.

[Kagthul]

if you buy lower then x570 YOU 100% NEED A BIOS UPDATE! so dont tell intel boys it "should just work" you either need an older AMD CPU or you buy a Mainboard with USB Bios Flashback which is for most MSI B450 Mainboards or some Asus Mobos. Tomahawk atm seems like best Option.

A lot of them are already shipping with updated BIOS. Just look for the sticker. Also, some places like Micro Center (and maybe Frys) will update them for you if they didnt ship updated.

[Dacien]

Well, the ram's here, so that's nice. Hoping I can OC it to 3733.

https://i.imgur.com/TvsNFwC.jpg

Motherboard and 3700X haven't been on Amazon yet, surprisingly. Except for the $500 3700X some guy was trying to sell.

[Ballistic]

Newegg is out of stock of 3800X and 3700X, Jeez these processors are selling like hot cakes it looks like it is going to be a while before everyone gets his hands on these processors.

[Anevers]

A lot of them are already shipping with updated BIOS. Just look for the sticker. Also, some places like Micro Center (and maybe Frys) will update them for you if they didnt ship updated.

Frys still hasn't gotten in many of the x470 and b450s with the new BIOS in yet. They have some of the new X570 boards from MSI (A-Pro, Edge, and Godlike)

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Aand they're looking quite good. They aren't beating intel in everything, but they're all more than capable of driving anything you'd want to drive anyway
GN reviewed the 3600 here: https://www.gamersnexus.net/hwreview...marks-vs-intel (video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AbNeht4tAE)
LMG did the 3900x and 3700x here: https://youtu.be/z3aEv3EzMyQ
Der8aur did an overclocking specific video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXbCdGENp5I
KitGuruTech did a 3900x and 3700x like LMG here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBvbw7ps-sA
Guru3d did a written review of 3700x and 3900x here: https://www.guru3d.com/articles-page...-review,1.html
Techpowerup did a review for the 3700x here: https://www.techpowerup.com/review/a...-3700x/21.html and the 3900x here: https://www.techpowerup.com/review/amd-ryzen-9-3900x/
BitWit did a video review of the 3900x and 3700x here: https://youtu.be/QZAqV6yo2vo

Will update when I see others

Techdeals did the 3600x
https://youtu.be/n0uB17Io2is

[Temp name]

Techdeals did the 3600x
https://youtu.be/n0uB17Io2is

That means the only released CPU we haven't seen reviewed is the 3800x. Doubt we'll be seeing any of those though, it'd be a nightmare trying to get views/clicks on it right now, and apparently they didn't ship any out