Best replacement for Ion.

[Kolento]

I can't? Never claimed I could. I have always said the community wants multiple different things. But each and everyone claim they know how to solve the issues the game has. Be it firing the game director, making it more casual friendly, making it more difficult to acquire loot etc.

Do you have anything to add? Or are you just going to keep asking dumb questions?

You keep generalizing that the community is arrogant because of their viewpoints, so i am asking you that. Just because you do not agree with their viewpoints does not entitle you to call them arrogant right? Who are you to be so condescending towards other players?

[Krille]

You keep generalizing that the community is arrogant because of their viewpoints, so i am asking you that. Just because you do not agree with their viewpoints does not entitle you to call them arrogant right? Who are you to be so condescending towards other players?

It's not like the community in question is very subtle with their dislike of the game and how their ideas could revolutionize it. It's not about disagreeing or agreeing with their viewpoints, it's about the fact they think they have the answer to the games problems and that it's groundbreaking stuff no one else have thought about before (Asmongold being the main culprit and his following).

[Kolento]

It's not like the community in question is very subtle with their dislike of the game and how their ideas could revolutionize it. It's not about disagreeing or agreeing with their viewpoints, it's about the fact they think they have the answer to the games problems and that it's groundbreaking stuff no one else have thought about before (Asmongold being the main culprit and his following).

So what is the answer to the game's problems? Can you claim that you have it? How can you be sure that the complaints of the community you are talking about are invalid and their suggestions are not the answer?

[Krille]

So what is the answer to the game's problems? Can you claim that you have it? How can you be sure that the complaints of the community you are talking about are invalid and their suggestions are not the answer?

I don't know, I would never make those claims because I don't know anything about game design. Many complaints from the community are valid, that's not the point. Complaints are fine, it's the "solutions" they have for these complaints that are arrogant. This thread is a golden example, just fire Ion and everything will be great.

[Kolento]

I don't know, I would never make those claims because I don't know anything about game design. Many complaints from the community are valid, that's not the point. Complaints are fine, it's the "solutions" they have for these complaints that are arrogant. This thread is a golden example, just fire Ion and everything will be great.

Sorry for probing but what's an example of an arrogant complaint?

[Krille]

Sorry for probing but what's an example of an arrogant complaint?

I don't think you're reading what I'm saying at this point. I never mentioned an arrogant complaint, arrogant solutions exists though.

[Kolento]

I don't think you're reading what I'm saying at this point. I never mentioned an arrogant complaint, arrogant solutions exists though.

Oh sorry, it's getting late. I mean arrogant solution

[Krille]

Oh sorry, it's getting late. I mean arrogant solution

Like when someone makes a very obvious solution to a perceived problem, like it's never been thought of. As if someone who works full-time on this game wouldn't have thought about it before. The PvP vendor is one thing, it would solve every single issue PvP has at the moment. It's all about being able to work towards something tangible.

"Remove Titanforging, it would solve the gearing issues this game has". It's like wow, no one has never thought about this before. Groundbreaking stuff, it's almost as if there might be a reason these mechanics still exist in the game and you might not be the target audience.

I'm open for discussing how to make the game better, but when you call for heads or claim "Blizzard is retarded for not thinking about this" you're just being arrogant.

[bubasparks]

I don't know, I would never make those claims because I don't know anything about game design. Many complaints from the community are valid, that's not the point. Complaints are fine, it's the "solutions" they have for these complaints that are arrogant. This thread is a golden example, just fire Ion and everything will be great.

You don't need to be game designer to see problems and imagine or suggest possible solution. The lack of imagination...well that may be a problem

Lets say dude comes to graphical designer and asks for logo. The dude is not designer, but he may know what he wants to see in his logo. That's where both side sit down, discuss and get to result which makes both sides happy.

With WoW it would be like - community formulates proper idea, suggestion, vision. Then game designer comes and tells if it is possible or not. At this point its not only communities fault for whining and demanding, its Blizzs fault too, for making bad choices of what should they implement out of all community demands...And all that because of lack of communication.

[Kolento]

Like when someone makes a very obvious solution to a perceived problem, like it's never been thought of. As if someone who works full-time on this game wouldn't have thought about it before. The PvP vendor is one thing, it would solve every single issue PvP has at the moment. It's all about being able to work towards something tangible.

"Remove Titanforging, it would solve the gearing issues this game has". It's like wow, no one has never thought about this before. Groundbreaking stuff, it's almost as if there might be a reason these mechanics still exist in the game and you might not be the target audience.

I'm open for discussing how to make the game better, but when you call for heads or claim "Blizzard is retarded for not thinking about this" you're just being arrogant.

Why would people want Ion fired?

[Krille]

Why would people want Ion fired?

You're not adding anything at this point. Have you read the first message in this thread? Do you know why we're here discussing this? Like honestly man. Just stop replying if all you do is ask questions, getting kinda boring.

[Kolento]

You don't need to be game designer to see problems and imagine or suggest possible solution. The lack of imagination...well that may be a problem

Lets say dude comes to graphical designer and asks for logo. The dude is not designer, but he may know what he wants to see in his logo. That's where both side sit down, discuss and get to result which makes both sides happy.

With WoW it would be like - community formulates proper idea, suggestion, vision. Then game designer comes and tells if it is possible or not. At this point its not only communities fault for whining and demanding, its Blizzs fault too, for making bad choices of what should they implement out of all community demands...And all that because of lack of communication.

Exactly. Games are made for players after all

- - - Updated - - -

You're not adding anything at this point. Have you read the first message in this thread? Do you know why we're here discussing this? Like honestly man. Just stop replying if all you do is ask questions, getting kinda boring.

Sorry for late reply. I've just read up. I get it now.So there are people who are blaming Ion who is the director for poor state of the game and you are not happy with it.

[Hitei]

You don't need to be game designer to see problems and imagine or suggest possible solution. The lack of imagination...well that may be a problem

Lets say dude comes to graphical designer and asks for logo. The dude is not designer, but he may know what he wants to see in his logo. That's where both side sit down, discuss and get to result which makes both sides happy.

With WoW it would be like - community formulates proper idea, suggestion, vision. Then game designer comes and tells if it is possible or not. At this point its not only communities fault for whining and demanding, its Blizzs fault too, for making bad choices of what should they implement out of all community demands...And all that because of lack of communication.

This is an extremely bad analogy because you are avoiding the primary issue.

It isn't a dude coming to a graphical designer and asking for a logo, knowing what he wants to see in the logo and both sides discussing it until they get a result where both are happy. It is 3-10 million dudes coming to a graphical designer, with wildly varying and often completely opposite ideas of what a logo should be, all demanding the logo be the version they want and not any of the versions that the other people want because those are terrible. When Blizzard compromises (see: Pathfinder) whoever isn't part of the group who wanted that version of the logo bitches and screams endlessly about how that version of the logo is ruining the brand and they need to immediately switch over to the version they want.

There is no magical sparkle and rainbows ~*~ communication ~*~ that allows you to implement some mythical configuration of community demands that results in everyone loving the end design, because there's no such thing as a configuration that everyone loves. People want their configuration, not compromise.

[Kolento]

This is an extremely bad analogy because you are avoiding the primary issue.

It isn't a dude coming to a graphical designer and asking for a logo, knowing what he wants to see in the logo and both sides discussing it until they get a result where both are happy. It is 3-10 million dudes coming to a graphical designer, with wildly varying and often completely opposite ideas of what a logo should be, all demanding the logo be the version they want and not any of the versions that the other people want because those are terrible. When Blizzard compromises (see: Pathfinder) whoever isn't part of the group who wanted that version of the logo bitches and screams endlessly about how that version of the logo is ruining the brand and they need to immediately switch over to the version they want.

There is no magical sparkle and rainbows ~*~ communication ~*~ that allows you to implement some mythical configuration of community demands that results in everyone loving the end design, because there's no such thing as a configuration that everyone loves. People want their configuration, not compromise.

So there's no way to judge whether a game product is good or not right? Game dev's job is the best.

[bubasparks]

This is an extremely bad analogy because you are avoiding the primary issue.

It isn't a dude coming to a graphical designer and asking for a logo, knowing what he wants to see in the logo and both sides discussing it until they get a result where both are happy. It is 3-10 million dudes coming to a graphical designer, with wildly varying and often completely opposite ideas of what a logo should be, all demanding the logo be the version they want and not any of the versions that the other people want because those are terrible. When Blizzard compromises (see: Pathfinder) whoever isn't part of the group who wanted that version of the logo bitches and screams endlessly about how that version of the logo is ruining the brand and they need to immediately switch over to the version they want.

There is no magical sparkle and rainbows ~*~ communication ~*~ that allows you to implement some mythical configuration of community demands that results in everyone loving the end design, because there's no such thing as a configuration that everyone loves. People want their configuration, not compromise.

Well thing is its not 3-10 millions who actually go to forums and express their opinions. I bet most players dont even care about state of the game, they will play anything Blizz will feed them. But even so, there are ways to purify and configure proper idea. Thing is, no one even trying to make that.

Imagine suggestion section of the forum with strict rules and limitations for topics, strict moderation to avoid trolls etc, proper voting, constructive debates...and knowledge that devs at-least will read those suggestions and take part in debates....

I dont think its a problem for the huge company to make global section on forum, assign few full time moderators to it and promise to read it and maybe to take a notes from it once a week.

[Hitei]

Well thing is its not 3-10 millions who actually go to forums and express their opinions. I bet most players dont even care about state of the game, they will play anything Blizz will feed them. But even so, there are ways to purify and configure proper idea. Thing is, no one even trying to make that.

Why do you think expansions change things?

Imagine suggestion section of the forum with strict rules and limitations for topics, strict moderation to avoid trolls etc, proper voting, constructive debates...and knowledge that devs at-least will read those suggestions and take part in debates....

I dont think its a problem for the huge company to make global section on forum, assign few full time moderators to it and promise to read it and maybe to take a notes from it once a week.

You aren't going to get anything out of such a forum that you aren't already getting out of the official forums and MMO-C. All this would lead to is people whining about how the devs aren't doing what X poll says they should instead of whining about how the devs aren't listening to """"the community"""".

[kaminaris]

Regular plebs whose main game design knowledge comes from listening to Asmongold the Prophet or just playing games are very shortsighted.

Right on spot.

[Moggie]

Jay Wilson *runs away laughing*

[Eosia]

Because Chilton wasnt outspoken. There's one common theme among all these people that some players want to get fired, they've all been outspoken on social media.

You're partially correct... they were "the face" of WoW during their respective time periods. But in the case of Ion and Ghostcrawler specifically, people were demanding their heads on a platter. It got so bad with Ghostcrawler that Blizzard offered to provide him with security at his house. But no one ever yelled about how Chilton, who sat above them in the chain of command, let them "ruin the game" and other such nonsense people accused Ion and GC of.

Regular plebs whose main game design knowledge comes from listening to Asmongold the Prophet or just playing games are very shortsighted.

[Gungnir]

I understand and respect your opinion but I disagree. At some point you have to release something. Features imperfect but salvageable are better than promises. You have the same problem currently with Star Citizen. During how many years can Chris Roberts get away with indefinitely postponed schedules and features because "trust me dude it will be great, keep sending me money btw"? If you keep on making things perfect, you never release anything. You gotta lower your expectations at some point. Rushed content is better than no content.

And remember Legion was released after a huge content drought (more than one year of HFC), in a very poor expansion content-wise. They had to release something. The release was far from perfect (till Nighthold the game was shite imho) but it was still better than HFC farm. Because people lose patience at some point. You can't postpone the deadline indefinitely.

I never once stated that they shouldn't release anything for years, but getting an extra 2 months to make sure CORE EXPANSION MECHANICS ARE ACTUALLY FUN, would be a worthwhile tradeoff in my eyes.
Most of my guild straight up quit early on in BfA because the actual azerite gear, which we were suppose to care about, was so horrendously poor that they didn't find any enjoyment in trying to find the best passive.

You lose so much more by releasing unfinished products in todays scene because EVERYONE is doing it.
Early access this, pre-alpha that, and the amount of games you have to pay a premium for only to have but a fraction of the promised content or just straight up broken content is extremely jading.


Blizzard, at this point, would only profit from taking a bit longer to actually give us an expansion that doesn't have a fundamentally broken auxiliary core progression system in it. You shouldn't have to wait 8 months for a game to get to a playable state when you're paying 60 bucks for it.