Is the current Benthic gear horrible game design?

[Argorwal]

Just make benthic gear unable to forge a socket.

Boom, done.

[Big Thanks]

Just make benthic gear unable to forge a socket.

Boom, done.

i want a refund of 200 manapearls on my mailbox by monday then.

[Argorwal]

i want a refund of 200 manapearls on my mailbox by monday then.

Sounds fine to me.

[Jester Joe]

That's a terrible point, the possibility that blizzard nerfs something, doesn't suddenly make it not bis.
It's "Yes it's BiS, but they may nerf it, so hold off before upgrading" They suggest using alts pearls to roll for pieces, not your mains and just hoarding all your mains pearls.

Why would waiting change anything? Are these players suggesting the pearls should be stockpiled for something else? I mean its 5 pearls / roll, its not expensive.

Because you don't need the gear for anything right now.

Like I have the boots fully upgraded with a socket, but what's the point of me having them? They don't work outside of Nazj and the raid.

So if there's the chance of them being nerfed let's say even tomorrow, why not just wait until then to grab them? For all we know the nerf could even be as much as "the effects don't work inside of the raid anymore" while buffing their effects in Nazj, since blizzard intended this to be solo play gear, I can imagine them saying something like "solo gear should be best for doing stuff solo, but not for raiding".

And pearls could be used towards crafted gear instead, or essences and hell the mount even if you care about that kind of stuff.

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Just make benthic gear unable to forge a socket.

Boom, done.

Doesn't really fix anything.
Their effects are still on par with other gear without a socket.

Example, when I simmed the mythic azshara boots, I made sure it was comparing them with a socket and the 120 Intel gem I have in my current benthic boots. It was barely an upgrade, like ~15 DPS I think, hard to go back and check on the phone.

If you strip both of the socket, it's still going to be the same situation. Unless you're making it that raid gear always has sockets again.

[Elbob]

But why is benthic a "problem" for a heroic raider? This is what i dont get.

Your problem, as you said, is that they are "powerful"...and? Why is it a problem?
If they are powerful and easy to get, go get it.

An Heroic raider has 1-2 pieces of Benthic gear on day 1 of Palace.
Why is this seen as a problem?

Is it because...its the best gear u can get for a set period of time? Like legion legendaries?

I feel like you arent reading my whole post or I'm talking through you. The problem is for a heroic raider to best progress their gear they have to go backwards in progression to get better gear. WQ's are a step down in progression from organized raiding but currently with benthic gear yield better items. This is bad design.

Imagine if you had to go farm legion content for upgrades wouldn't that feel stupid? This is obviously an exaggerated comparison of the 2 but its about the principle of wanting to push forward into more difficult content in order to gain character power not step back into easier content. In most hobbies/jobs/tasks/activities pushing yourself yields the best results. Whether that be going to the gym or learning a new skill or playing a sport. But here in this game choosing the easier lazier route gives a greater reward.

Edit

So what? You make it sound the game is showering us with 425 benthic gear with a socket. Benthic gear rewards you for playing the game but the diminishing returns in terms of efficiency are obvious. I fail to see where the problem lies when you look at the amount of time and effort needed to fully upgrade a benthic item. It takes one week to play consistently to have a fully upgraded benthic item. I did almost every manapearl quest since 8.2 release, farmed a bit of rares and chests, and have one item available. But it required a sizeable effort for just one item.

It takes several hours of play for one item, not even taking into account the farm invested to get the desired item and a socket. How many hours do you need to play to farm your "200-300 pearls"? 15 hours? 20 hours? More? This system rewards the time and effort invested. While it's not a difficult task, it's a time hungry task.

at 1-2 items per week that you have access too before the comparable heroic gear is even obtainable with little to no effort to get it. Yea it is kinda showering us with 425 benthic gear. Benthic gear is a fine reward structure if it was balanced properly. You are correct that farming pearls takes time but its also a brainless task and with little difficulty but yields great results. Its out of sync with most the rewards in the game. I'm not sure i'd agree with it being a "sizable effort" unless we have significant differences in what that means. Doing 4-5 new wq's plus a few dailies in the NEW zone each day? Its where we are supposed to playing atm. Its the most engaging WQ zone we have with new achievements, pets, mounts, etc.

[Trend]

But why is benthic a "problem" for a heroic raider? This is what i dont get.

Your problem, as you said, is that they are "powerful"...and? Why is it a problem?
If they are powerful and easy to get, go get it.

An Heroic raider has 1-2 pieces of Benthic gear on day 1 of Palace.
Why is this seen as a problem?

Is it because...its the best gear u can get for a set period of time? Like legion legendaries?

I don't understand why you are confused. This is very easy to understand.

You are a self-described casual. You are jumping up and down with excitement because this system gives better gear than you would get from doing content that is more difficult, time demanding and limited. Any time you can't even contain yourself and you are jumping up and down with glee because of your perception that the balance is swinging from raiders to casuals, a lot of raiders will be upset. Any time the reverse is true people like you will be upset and disappointed. A lot of people (including you) don't really care what gear they have, they care how it compares to other people's gear.

Furthermore, a lot of raiders now feel like they have to do the bullshit pearl grind to get their 3-4 (maybe more for Heroic raiders?) pieces in addition to the normal routine of raiding and M+. This peal grind is something that may be fun for casuals but is less appealing for someone who does the actual endgame content.

I think it's dumbass design, but I don't care personally beyond feeling like the WoW team has lost their minds. If I was still raiding mythic I would be annoyed though.

[Big Thanks]

I don't understand why you are confused. This is very easy to understand.

You are a self-described casual. You are jumping up and down with excitement because this system gives better gear than you would get from doing content that is more difficult, time demanding and limited. Any time you can't even contain yourself and you are jumping up and down with glee because of your perception that the balance is swinging from raiders to casuals, a lot of raiders will be upset. Any time the reverse is true people like you will be upset and disappointed. A lot of people (including your) don't really care what gear they have, they care how it compares to other people's gear.

How is it bad the gap in item level between bad players and good players got smaller?
How is this a bad thing?

Furthermore, a lot of raiders now feel like they have to do the bullshit pearl grind to get their 3-4 (maybe more for Heroic raiders?) pieces in addition to the normal routine of raiding and M+.

LoL! Its ok for casuals to do hard content BUT is not ok for hardcores to do casual content?
This is hilarious.

[Trend]

How is it bad the gap in item level between bad players and good players got smaller?
How is this a bad thing?



LoL! Its ok for casuals to do hard content BUT is not ok for hardcores to do casual content?

This is hilarious.

Wow, you just completely ignored everything I said. Not going to bother trying to explain anything to you ever again.

[Big Thanks]

Wow, you just completely ignored everything I said. Not going to bother trying to explain anything to you ever again.

Im multi-tasking while playing the game...because im having more fun than ever before.
Sorry if it was a fast reply.

I dont understand why you got mad by my reply when more than half your post was pointing out im happy and shouldnt be.
And poor Hardcore players have to do the pearl farm. Poor guys...

(if you are not happy with this reply either...put me on ignore)

[Trend]

Im multi-tasking while playing the game...because im having more fun than ever before.
Sorry if it was a fast reply.

I dont understand why you got mad by my reply when more than half your post was pointing out im happy and shouldnt be.
And poor Hardcore players have to do the pearl farm. Poor guys...

(if you are not happy with this reply either...put me on ignore)

I think you're being an idiot. You keep expressing confusion about why anyone wouldn't like the system and when people explain why, rather than responding to what they say, you just keep saying the same stupid things. And the "Poor guys" quip - you're such an asshole, I didn't care before but I hope they take your stupid shit away now.

[Big Thanks]

I think you're being an idiot. You keep expressing confusion about why anyone wouldn't like the system and when people explain why, rather than responding to what they say, you just keep saying the same stupid things. And the "Poor guys" quip - you're such an asshole, I didn't care before but I hope they take your stupid shit away now.

Im reading everyones posts and in HUGE posts i see only 2 phrases explaining why this is bad.
Your post was big...but where did you explain how this is bad
Ive read your post at least 5 times and cant find the part where you explain why.

This is the only part:

Furthermore, a lot of raiders now feel like they have to do the bullshit pearl grind to get their 3-4 (maybe more for Heroic raiders?) pieces in addition to the normal routine of raiding and M+. This peal grind is something that may be fun for casuals but is less appealing for someone who does the actual endgame content.

Thats why i only replied to this part of your post.
Because every single other of your phrases dont explain anything.

[KaPe]

I think you're being an idiot. You keep expressing confusion about why anyone wouldn't like the system and when people explain why, rather than responding to what they say, you just keep saying the same stupid things. And the "Poor guys" quip - you're such an asshole, I didn't care before but I hope they take your stupid shit away now.

Pretty sure they're doing this on purpose, it's one of those typical "suck it, raiders" moments. After all, they'd have the same enjoyment if benthic gear didn't have any special effects on it. Don't need to go far to prove it - simply travelling to Mechagon already disables the bonuses, but I have yet to see anyone claim "oh no, my crits are 2% weaker now, the game is suddenly horrible, I will unsubscribe immediately."

At the same time, it's constantly the same question - "why do you *raiders* care if part of potential rewards from your favourite activity have become useless?" All that's missing is the classic "I thought you raided for the challenge", with a smug grin as if that means any loot issues should be disregarded or else they prove hypocrisy.

It's quite likely that this will get hotfixed, players whose content cap at world questing won't even notice and the issue will be solved. But hey, let's pretend it's (once again) raiders being whiny manchildren who are never satisfied and have to harass poor casuals.

[Trend]

Pretty sure they're doing this on purpose, it's one of those typical "suck it, raiders" moments. After all, they'd have the same enjoyment if benthic gear didn't have any special effects on it. Don't need to go far to prove it - simply travelling to Mechagon already disables the bonuses, but I have yet to see anyone claim "oh no, my crits are 2% weaker now, the game is suddenly horrible, I will unsubscribe immediately."

At the same time, it's constantly the same question - "why do you *raiders* care if part of potential rewards from your favourite activity have become useless?" All that's missing is the classic "I thought you raided for the challenge", with a smug grin as if that means any loot issues should be disregarded or else they prove hypocrisy.

It's quite likely that this will get hotfixed, players whose content cap at world questing won't even notice and the issue will be solved. But hey, let's pretend it's (once again) raiders being whiny manchildren who are never satisfied and have to harass poor casuals.

It's such a gross decision in the first place I have significant doubts it will be fixed, but who knows.

You hit the nail on the head in your description of the militant casuals on this forum. Such an amazing depth of intellectual dishonesty. I don't have to raid seriously anymore to understand why this would bother raiders and I don't have to be a total casual to understand why they would be so excited about it. Some people, however, much prefer to remain ignorantly locked into their own singular perspective.

[Shefu]

Almost every spec has 1 or more benthic pieces that are BiS in the upcoming raid (Balance has like 4 items that are BiS from benthic gear). With the current design you can basicly get several BiS pieces that are equal or higher than Mythic loot level in terms of dps before the raid even opens. That is, if you are a lucky. It feels like they doubled down on the RNG this time and I am still surprised strong items like these dont have reduced secondaries (like the plate hands or plate legs from CoS).

Do you expect changes made to these items?

Suggestions on how to fix it:
1. Remove socket
2. Disable effect in the raid

Small edit:
One could argue that an item titanforging from Normal to Mythic levels is fine. On average the Mythic raider will have a much higher chance to get better gear than the Normal raider. However for Benthic gear its different, both the Normal raider and the Mythic raider will have the same chance to get the best available gear for the The Eternal Palace in some slots.

I couldn't hear you past all the "wah wah wah".

Benthic gear is a solid addition.

[Big Thanks]

Pretty sure they're doing this on purpose, it's one of those typical "suck it, raiders" moments. After all, they'd have the same enjoyment if benthic gear didn't have any special effects on it. Don't need to go far to prove it - simply travelling to Mechagon already disables the bonuses, but I have yet to see anyone claim "oh no, my crits are 2% weaker now, the game is suddenly horrible, I will unsubscribe immediately."

Not a single soul in this entire thread is against removing the special effects in Palace.
Ive yet to see a person claiming "plz dont make the special effects not work inside the raid"

At the same time, it's constantly the same question - "why do you *raiders* care if part of potential rewards from your favourite activity have become useless?" All that's missing is the classic "I thought you raided for the challenge", with a smug grin as if that means any loot issues should be disregarded or else they prove hypocrisy.

Heroic quality gear is not useless.

Why do you want gear? I ask you.
Why do you need specifically Heroic Palace gear to be better? To tackle the hardships ahead, right? Or is there any other reason? Because thats how it sounds to be the case...

I can only see one downside:
-Some pieces are better than palace gear, therefore you will not replace the items. Akin to legion legendaries.

If you see any other downside plz tell us.

[chaoticcrono]

No, people are concerned about the devaluing of loot - a key motivator for many people. This "why cant everyone just have everything" mentality reminds me of certain countries - "hmmm, people are poor, lets just print heaps of money and give money to everyone! why not?" next thing you know the money has no value.

Thats what i am concerned about, and i know others are as well.

I agree with you on devaluing loot, the thing is someone else getting good gear doesn't devalue it... getting tons of randomized trash is what devalues it.

there's too much gear, and i agree that devalues it. people EARNING gear via methods other than raiding doesn't devalue it.

[arkanon]

I agree with you on devaluing loot, the thing is someone else getting good gear doesn't devalue it... getting tons of randomized trash is what devalues it.

there's too much gear, and i agree that devalues it. people EARNING gear via methods other than raiding doesn't devalue it.

The quality and quantity of the loot is what is causing the issue - and the quantity part is related directly to the content used to obtain the items.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

I think you're being an idiot. You keep expressing confusion about why anyone wouldn't like the system and when people explain why, rather than responding to what they say, you just keep saying the same stupid things. And the "Poor guys" quip - you're such an asshole, I didn't care before but I hope they take your stupid shit away now.

Don 't bother trying.

Shadowpunkz/Togabito is known for: (1.) not comprehending ANYTHING other than the narrative that supports him, (2.) refusing to understand other points, (3.) regurgitates the same rhetoric over and over to the point where he can 't even keep track of his own points

Luckily he spams threads non - stop so we have countless evidence to see that it 's just not worth engaging him

Why do you need specifically Heroic Palace gear to be better? To tackle the hardships ahead, right? Or is there any other .

It 's literally been the same answer said to you for literal --months-- now

Those who put in the effort to tackle content that is designed to be difficult ( or difficult by the standards Blizz thinks is considered difficult )

The content that you always wave your hand at and say, "nope, not doing it because i 'm casual" but turn around and say , " Blizz needs to help us out "

Benthic gear is a good way to get people to gear back up , and when the raid comes out , it should be able to gear up-to-par with just Normal tier ilvl

[arkanon]

It's such a gross decision in the first place I have significant doubts it will be fixed, but who knows.

You hit the nail on the head in your description of the militant casuals on this forum. Such an amazing depth of intellectual dishonesty. I don't have to raid seriously anymore to understand why this would bother raiders and I don't have to be a total casual to understand why they would be so excited about it. Some people, however, much prefer to remain ignorantly locked into their own singular perspective.

I have used this before and it works here perfectly - this is the rich vs the poor argument - The poor think printing more money will fix their issues and make life better for them. It wont. Thats what i see here - players who do only solo content claiming they can FINALLY do M+ and raids - but this is absolutely false - because anyone who wanted to do M+ did M+ - gear was never the barrier for those who actually had the ability and motivation to complete the content.

Its no different to when Tier sets were removed from LFR and the people who always claimed "we NEED lfr for the story, thats why its important!" suddenly freaked the fuck out that tier sets were being removed. That particular crowd are EXTREMELY vocal and very, very disingenuous with the "reasons".

I also notice its many of the same "Wf/Tf is a great system" people defending this abomination as well. I notice one striking similarity - loot that far exceeds the effort required.

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Don 't bother trying.

Shadowpunkz/Togabito is known for: (1.) not comprehending ANYTHING other than the narrative that supports him, (2.) refusing to understand other points, (3.) regurgitates the same rhetoric over and over to the point where he can 't even keep track of his own points

Luckily he spams threads non - stop so we have countless evidence to see that it 's just not worth engaging him

The biggest issue i have is the ridiculous dishonesty in the arguments used. "its only one item" - wait, what? entire sets are simming better than normal mode raid loot, even at 400 ilvl, and the majority is better than heroic raid loot when upgraded. But they keep going with the completely disingenuous "its just 1 or 2 items whats the issue?". When very clearly the issue is bigger than one or two items.

But those comments are just swept under the rug and the goal posts shifted and all the usual childish tricks to keep the agenda moving forward.

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Because you don't need the gear for anything right now.

Like I have the boots fully upgraded with a socket, but what's the point of me having them? They don't work outside of Nazj and the raid.

So if there's the chance of them being nerfed let's say even tomorrow, why not just wait until then to grab them? For all we know the nerf could even be as much as "the effects don't work inside of the raid anymore" while buffing their effects in Nazj, since blizzard intended this to be solo play gear, I can imagine them saying something like "solo gear should be best for doing stuff solo, but not for raiding".

And pearls could be used towards crafted gear instead, or essences and hell the mount even if you care about that kind of stuff.

.

But why does the item being nerfed or not matter if you still intend to purchase and upgrade it either way? Sure, if you are saving for a mount instead, thats their choice - but lets not muddy the water by comparing someone farming for a mount with high end raiders looking to gain an advantage - apples with apples please. The logic does not add up.

[chaoticcrono]

The quality and quantity of the loot is what is causing the issue - and the quantity part is related directly to the content used to obtain the items.

umm you get tons of random trash from all content.... maybe remove random trash and just make specific pieces available from specific places.