Is the current Benthic gear horrible game design?

[arkanon]

you arent everyone else... there are plenty of groups that still judge based on gear... and you further prove this by pointing to raider.io which just so happens to give an overview of gear as well as what raids theyve done etc.

gear is only one metric people use but to say its not considered is blatantly dishonest...

More strawmanning. No one is saying gear is irreverent when doing a raid. NO ONE. I am saying that this idea that ilvl is the only or even main hurdle to cross when getting into raiding is absolutely false, and that the this magical barrier hasnt been removed. Anyone who wanted to raid in 8.1 raided - they got gear, and they raided. Anyone who wants to raid in 8.2 will raid - they will get gear, and they will raid. Nothing has changed.

Seriously, google what a strawman argument is - you are using it in every reply. You are creating these arguments that are easy to refute, and then refuting them. Only problem is, they dont at all line up with what i am saying.

I will give you one more go at answering the question i have asked half a dozen times this thread - how does Benthic gear remove the barrier, while previous gearing methods did not?

[Big Thanks]

I will give you one more go at answering the question i have asked half a dozen times this thread - how does Benthic gear remove the barrier, while previous gearing methods did not?

Now you know how it feels.
Why should we answer your questions when you refuse to answer ours?

All you are doing is begging "noobs dont need this gear", "noobs dont need this gear", "noobs dont need this gear".

You know how pitiful that is?

[MoanaLisa]

What?

As if wanting to get the best you can is a bad thing?

Obsessing on it to the point where you want to affect how everyone else gets gear? Yeah, maybe.

[chaoticcrono]

I am saying that this idea that ilvl is the only or even main hurdle to cross when getting into raiding is absolutely false

You should take your own advice because this right here is a straw man...

No one said it was the only hurdle...

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how does Benthic gear remove the barrier, while previous gearing methods did not?

you are more likely to get into a pug with higher ilevel gear than with lower ilevel gear...

This isnt difficult to understand...

Also who said previous methods didnt make it easier also?

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ill bite - why is being obsessed with obtaining the best gear a bad thing? does it impact your gameplay in some way?

Being obsessed with obtaining the best gear inst an issue, being obsessed with other peoples gear obviously is because you want to dictate how others can/should obtain said gear and what that gear can/should be...

[A Chozo]

ill bite - why is being obsessed with obtaining the best gear a bad thing? does it impact your gameplay in some way?

It's bad because the obsessed person is bound to be discontent, for obsessions aren't easily sated. It makes me sad when my fellow players are in such a self-destructive path.

It impacts my gameplay because currently some players obsessed with their BiS itens are concerned with the existence of BiS Benthic Gear, which the majority in this very thread (for example) are okay with. The very OP wants to remove the effects of Benthic Gear on raids and also remove it's sockets just so that it stops being his BiS gear.

Munch it.

[arkanon]

You should take your own advice because this right here is a straw man...

No one said it was the only hurdle...

No, its not, it is a direct response to the claim that this gear having a high item ilvl will allow people to raid who previously could not. You also conveniently neglected to read the quote correctly; "the only or even main"

So no, it is not a strawman. A strawman would be me saying "getting Benthic gear wont automatically let you full clear mythic because you still lack the skill" - THAT would be a strawman.

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Also who said previous methods didnt make it easier also?

No one to my knowledge specifically said that the previous methods didnt make it easier to enter raids. However, it has been said MULTIPLE times that this current system will finally allow them to enter raids. That is what we are discussing. You can twist it however you want, that is what is being discussed.

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It's bad because the obsessed person is bound to be discontent, for obsessions aren't easily sated. It makes me sad when my fellow players are in such a self-destructive path.

It impacts my gameplay because currently some players obsessed with their BiS itens are concerned with the existence of BiS Benthic Gear, which the majority in this very thread (for example) are okay with. The very OP wants to remove the effects of Benthic Gear on raids and also remove it's sockets just so that it stops being his BiS gear.

Munch it.

And every single person other than you has said they are absolutely fine with that. I have not seen a single person object to this. MuNcH iT

[Trend]

6 more pages and you still havent said "why" benthic gear is bad for the game

All you spam is that "noobs dont need this gear" or "this gear is useless to them"

In PvP the gap between a Mythic raider and a noob will be much lower.
Giving us a fighting chance against this people.

Dont even reply to me if you are not saying exaclty "WHY" benthic gear is bad for the game.

Are you talking about PvP in Nazjatar or instanced PvP? If you're talking about instanced PvP, the effects don't matter for you. In other words, a major component of the benthic gear's strength is completely irrelevant to you.

At 425 with a socket, you're still going to be at a disadvantage to someone who has higher ilvl across their gear and weapons/rings/trinkets at a level you can't even get close to. The socket is more valuable to make up ilvl in PvE than it is in PvP because both secondary stats and stamina are relevant for the latter. 425 is just the new 395 (given the 30 ilvl bump with each tier) - I don't see this as closing the gap much at all. A small amount will be made up because the higher chance of sockets helps, but you're going to be way behind on the things that matter the most: azerite armor and weapons ... just like last tier.

[chaoticcrono]

^This is a big problem with Legion and BfA.

iLevel used to be a good gauge of player competency. Of course people were still carried into the gear they got but it was certainly better than what we have now.

Now we have people running around in Heroic raid quality level loot who have no fucking idea how to do basic mechanics. We had a fucking Shaman the other night who didn't have Purge on his bars.

theres always been crappy players who got carried... this is nothing new and benthic gear doesnt change that...

Even all the way back in vanilla people would carry friends who could barely play and get them raid gear

[Monkiy]

I personally wish that catch-up gear wasn't such an overwhelming thing to the point that it effectively invalidates previous raids and content. When people in full mythic gear from the prior raid are farming "catch-up" gear, then the entire design is flawed, the main premise has been missed, and it becomes another slot machine of RNG on top of RNG on top of RNG. In my mind, catch-up gear should put you at roughly normal ilvls from the previous tier, which is what you should be at to go into normal/heroic of the current tier (in this case, the coming tier). But I don't even feel that it needs to fully flesh out every piece of gear, it should really just be a start, get you into some previous content at an appropriate level, and then you gear yourself up.

[Big Thanks]

Are you talking about PvP in Nazjatar or instanced PvP? If you're talking about instanced PvP, the effects don't matter for you. In other words, a major component of the benthic gear's strength is completely irrelevant to you.

Ive yet to see someone on this thread against removing the special effects inside the raid.
The problem is that people here want benthic to right out dont even exist ingame.

At 425 with a socket, you're still going to be at a disadvantage to someone who has higher ilvl across their gear and weapons/rings/trinkets at a level you can't even get close to. The socket is more valuable to make up ilvl in PvE than it is in PvP because both secondary stats and stamina are relevant for the latter. 425 is just the new 395 (given the 30 ilvl bump with each tier) - I don't see this as closing the gap much at all. A small amount will be made up because the higher chance of sockets helps, but you're going to be way behind on the things that matter the most: azerite armor and weapons ... just like last tier.

How is it "just like last tier"?
Noobs in last tier had at best 370-385 item level

Now they will have almost heroic quality gear.

The Gap will be much smaller, unlike last tier.

[Yunaqt]

^This is a big problem with Legion and BfA.

iLevel used to be a good gauge of player competency. Of course people were still carried into the gear they got but it was certainly better than what we have now.

Now we have people running around in Heroic raid quality level loot who have no fucking idea how to do basic mechanics. We had a fucking Shaman the other night who didn't have Purge on his bars.

There's never instances where heroic level gear on a player was an indicator of skill, since shit like GDKP existed back in WotLK, all you really used gearscore/ ilvl was to pick someone at those upper echelons of the scale to just reduce your chances of invited a completely brain dead individual. Same reason now people use AOTC and RIO, it's still just a flip of a coin half the time.

Shit even joining mid level mythic raiding guilds that've killed Jaina, it's blatant there's a bunch of people running around in decent gear who have no fucking idea how to do basic mechanics.

[arkanon]

Are you talking about PvP in Nazjatar or instanced PvP? If you're talking about instanced PvP, the effects don't matter for you. In other words, a major component of the benthic gear's strength is completely irrelevant to you.

At 425 with a socket, you're still going to be at a disadvantage to someone who has higher ilvl across their gear and weapons/rings/trinkets at a level you can't even get close to. The socket is more valuable to make up ilvl in PvE than it is in PvP because both secondary stats and stamina are relevant for the latter. 425 is just the new 395 (given the 30 ilvl bump with each tier) - I don't see this as closing the gap much at all. A small amount will be made up because the higher chance of sockets helps, but you're going to be way behind on the things that matter the most: azerite armor and weapons ... just like last tier.

Trend i need to thank you. You have managed to articulate what i was attempting to explain 10 pages ago - These ppl are not suddenly above the bar - the bar has simply been raised. If you were considered below the 'bar' in 8.1, you will still be below the bar in 8.2, benthic gear or otherwise.

[arkanon]

There's never instances where heroic level gear on a player was an indicator of skill, since shit like GDKP existed back in WotLK, all you really used gearscore/ ilvl was to pick someone at those upper echelons of the scale to just reduce your chances of invited a completely brain dead individual. Same reason now people use AOTC and RIO, it's still just a flip of a coin half the time.

Shit even joining mid level mythic raiding guilds that've killed Jaina, it's blatant there's a bunch of people running around in decent gear who have no fucking idea how to do basic mechanics.

I dont believe mr Crow is saying 'heroic ilvl gear was an indicator of skill'. Correct me if im wrong, but i think what he is saying is that previously, before Titanforging and similar systems boosting gear to ridiculous ilvls, you could guage a players progression by the sum of their gear - be it ilvl, gear score, or similar. If they had a multitude of high end gear, either they got carried raid after raid after raid to get the gear, or, they have proven themselves to be competent and completed the content to obtain the gear 'legitimately'.

As these inflation systems became more and more common, further systems were needed to achive the same result. Achivements themselves could be purchased (i have seen a guy with 9/9N, 9/9H, and 6/9M.......one kill per boss. Thats a lot of $$$ that player forked out. I asked if it was an alt, they said "nah bro, this is my main". I even remember the fake achievement thing, so even that isnt fool proof.

We are at the point now where we are having to look at each character pretty closely to find out if they are suitable for even a NORMAL clear, let alone heoric and heaven forbid, mythic. And thats why systems like Raider.io have gained such popularity among those running pugs.

[MoanaLisa]

Even all the way back in vanilla people would carry friends who could barely play and get them raid gear

I'll carry friends and guildies too if I can. But my post was about PUGS and how group leaders decide between a number of people completely strange to them. Of course the gear they are wearing is a consideration. It's not the only one but it's certainly one thing that people take into account and it's an easy way to eliminate people. "Need 435." Well, OK. I'm surprised there's even any pushback about this.

[Big Thanks]

Trend i need to thank you. You have managed to articulate what i was attempting to explain 10 pages ago - These ppl are not suddenly above the bar - the bar has simply been raised. If you were considered below the 'bar' in 8.1, you will still be below the bar in 8.2, benthic gear or otherwise.

Nope
The GAP between a noob and a mythic raider will be much smaller, unlike last tier.

If they aren't doing the hard content, why do they need the gear? It doesn't help them in any way and they are never forced to learn to improve because they can get near to the best gear for doing the easiest content in the game.

Great, now we have 2 people spaming the same thing "bu-bu-bu-but they d-d-d-dont need the gear"
How is this a good argument?
Instead of saying one by one the reasons WHY Benthic is bad for the game.

[Trend]

Ive yet to see someone on this thread against removing the special effects inside the raid.
The problem is that people here want benthic to right out dont even exist ingame.

I think you have never really listened to understand the complaint then. If the gear doesn't have the effects then raiders (Heroic and higher) don't need to waste the time to farm them to have BiS raid gear. Without the effects they're just 425 with sockets. Even though I think the sockets should be toned down, whatever, that's the not the issue.

This is the first I've seen that you've been willing to admit that it's reasonable to want to see a change with the benthic gear. But hey, maybe you did say it and I just missed it.

How is it "just like last tier"?
Noobs in last tier had at best 370-385 item level

Now they will have almost heroic quality gear.

The Gap will be much smaller, unlike last tier.

If you were at 370-385 last tier you were doing it wrong. Darkshore gave a guaranteed 400+ once a cycle. Emissaries were giving 395/400. With TF you had many chances to get other various upgrades. If you did BG's with any consistency to fill conquest bars you were getting ilvl 400 gear from that - you didn't even have to do rated PvP for that.

Plus I have multiple alts I never did any raiding or keystones on and that have necks around 40 that are still over ilvl 390. 395 last tier was completely trivial and frankly a lot less work than farming all the pearls needed for 425 gear now. Other alts I have not touched in weeks and I never raided on are right around 400.

IMO, the people too lazy to do the easy things last tier aren't going to farm all the pearls to have many 425 benthic pieces. If they do, yeah the gap will be a bit smaller because of the higher socket chance, but I don't see this as a game changer. It's pretty much the same as last tier.

[chaoticcrono]

I'll carry friends and guildies too if I can. But my post was about PUGS and how group leaders decide between a number of people completely strange to them. Of course the gear they are wearing is a consideration. It's not the only one but it's certainly one thing that people take into account and it's an easy way to eliminate people. "Need 435." Well, OK. I'm surprised there's even any pushback about this.

i'm agreeing with you, ive pointed out that people DO take gear into consideration when finding members for their pug group.

[arkanon]

Why do you think raider.io was developed? When was it developed?

That's right, when gear started getting handed out like it was raining from the sky.


The amount of people I have decimated in PvP who have 20-30k more hp(more iLevel) than me is hilarious.

If they aren't doing the hard content, why do they need the gear? It doesn't help them in any way and they are never forced to learn to improve because they can get near to the best gear for doing the easiest content in the game.

Crowz its scary enough for us to be agreeing about something at all, but lets see if we agree about this idea;

Benthic gear is reduced to a max ilvl of 400. HOWEVER, the proc stats are dramatically increased - instead of a 2% increase to a specific mob, its a 10% increase to ALL mobs IN THE OPEN WORLD (outside of instanced content like 5mans, raids, and pvp). Instead of 5% movement speed, its 40% movement speed while in the open world. The cloak? that works like a hearth - but to each zone in the game on a timer that reduces as you upgrade it - so WQ players can zip around the world faster doing their dailies. Boots? wings that allow slowfall on use. And the final upgrade after ilvl 400? a strong investment of pearls to add a gem slot. These are just examples obviously, but they give those players a genuine gearing path that directly rewards them and allows them to become extremely powerful in the content they do - open world solo content.

Raiders might use it to fill out gaps in their gear, or to gear up an alt quickly, and it would be a perfectly acceptable ENTRY point for raiding and M+.

Look, i understand these changes would NEVER be made this season, or even this expac - im just saying would a system like that be more favorable to you? I know it would be for me.

[chaoticcrono]

If they aren't doing the hard content, why do they need the gear? It doesn't help them in any way and they are never forced to learn to improve because they can get near to the best gear for doing the easiest content in the game.

Better gear makes everything easier....

[Yunaqt]

Why do you think raider.io was developed? When was it developed?

That's right, when gear started getting handed out like it was raining from the sky.


The amount of people I have decimated in PvP who have 20-30k more hp(more iLevel) than me is hilarious.

If they aren't doing the hard content, why do they need the gear? It doesn't help them in any way and they are never forced to learn to improve because they can get near to the best gear for doing the easiest content in the game.

It was developed when the inception of M+ since it gave a new gearscore style way to reduce the chances of a dice roll and get a feel for if the player knows the instance at x level. Something that wasn't needed prior since that's what worldoflogs, warcraft logs etc. covered for raiding.

If it's in arena i'm fairly certain there is some scaling of damage that goes out, so players with higher gear levels take more than players with less. I remember being tricked by this at the start of the season where a player would have a far lower health pool so go them.

Each to thier own though, I couldn't care less about what some WQ hero is running around in to do their achievements.