Why does gear still affect competitive pvp?

[docterfreeze]

WoD reduced meaning of gear even more than Legion did.

I disagree. The difference between full honor and full conquest was still significant, and you still had a PvP trinket set bonus that reduced damage taken from players. In legion not only was that bonus gone, but you couldn't even activate PvP trinkets in PvP. A 30 ilvl difference in legion was only 3% stats.

[Azerate]

PVP isnt a separate game, but is a part of a larger whole that is WoW. Of course gear should affect pvp.

[Freighter]

If you don't want gear to affect your character, play some moba or something instead? MMORPGs are all about gear.

[jiih]

Lets pretend that WotLK PvP wasn't a complete joke, mainly THANKS to all the PvE crap.


WoD reduced meaning of gear even more than Legion did. I liked that expansion's PvP faaar better than Legion.

i mean you like wod pvp your opinion is pretty much invalid 2braincell player?

[Powerogue]

I liked it effecting it less, it caused me to actually be able to fight competently in random BGs and get my first pvp artifact appearance in Legion. Not sure what's happened since, as that was my big motivator for actually doing pvp.

[Freighter]

I liked it effecting it less, it caused me to actually be able to fight competently in random BGs and get my first pvp artifact appearance in Legion. Not sure what's happened since, as that was my big motivator for actually doing pvp.

My big motivator for doing PvP was to be able to crush people by getting stronger and better at playing. They destroyed any sense of character progression by removing gear from PvP in Legion. If you don't get stronger, why play?

[Mysterymask]

Welcome to the argument of people who wanna win vs people who want to actually compete....

unfortunately the people who just wanna win will ALWAYS be higher than the people who want to compete...blizz themselves said the only way they will get people to stop bitching is if they figure out how to remove losing

[Powerogue]

Welcome to the argument of people who wanna win vs people who want to actually compete....

unfortunately the people who just wanna win will ALWAYS be higher than the people who want to compete...blizz themselves said the only way they will get people to stop bitching is if they figure out how to remove losing

That was their secret plan all along! The Arathi Basin PvM mode was just the testbed!

[Mysterymask]

That was their secret plan all along! The Arathi Basin PvM mode was just the testbed!

you really aren't wrong

[cparle87]

If they'd just return vendors...

So people can go back to complaining that their spec of choice's two best secondary stats aren't on every/any pieces? Had a ret paladin throw a rip snorting rage in guild discord back in WoD when he found out the legendary ring had his worst secondary on it. Went and simmed him out of curiosity. Said stat was lowest by 0.15%, and all secondaries were within 4% of one another.

[Alkizon]

Oh boy!.. I mentioned you, people, only yesterday, and here you're and spreading nonsense... Well, I'll have to quote that message, to which I gave only a link yesterday:

PrairieChicken
For PVP, gear should not matter at all,

For PVE, scaling is a bad idea I agree

Wrong for 1st and True for 2nd. Have to quote friend since messages already been made (this will be faster for me), but were deleted with whole those threads (stupid people cried about they don't want "gear matters" in PvP, done about 2 month ago, from eu forum):

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Quote №1.

There are three main factors for which gear is responsible:
1) Dividing characteristics (dividing pvp-pve game component progression)
- Whole this game's balance and tuning revolves around characteristics, which I have already repeatedly mentioned <url> If you don't understand this, then there is nothing to talk about with you. Therefore, with removing rating secondary characteristics they undermine setting/division between different game activities, areas of interest (that's for what were pve-powers = hit, expertise, mastery, mp5/spirit and others so 'unloved', 'boring' by all of you indicators, together with pvp-power = resilience; forget about pvp-perks/hit-pvp-target-item(lvl)-scaling, for such mechanic of 'restrictions' has no lore/theoretical substantiation in the game, in fact, like what the 'classes' have become now - complete nonsense) => items=characteristics are important for reinforcing your field of activity => gear should matter.
2) General characteristics (individual customization)
- Since each participant of any activity chooses specific self role, it requires existence of so-called general characteristics that are relevant for any type of activity. Moreover, preferences of different participants will also differ (more haste, more crit, more whatever he/she wants) and by cutting them off (for example by templates) you cut their strategy/opportunities, you make useless all work and knowledge that is spent/required for intelligent individual customization (remember enchanting, jewelcrafting, engineering, leatherworking, tailoring, blacksmithing insertions, also some of them had differentiation by utility too and reforging) => items=characteristics are important for reinforcing your individual gameplay => gear should matter.
3) Progress (time investment)
- Enough has been said about this, but I'll also clarify something else: progress is an indicator of how long you have been participating in specific activity (yes, this is RPG indicator, but not only), because no one will ask for gear from last pve part (raid) for free or make everyone equal, people will laugh because it's stupid (we're all equal at the start, and the rest is depends on us), it'll take you some time to meet requirements (forget now about LFR, many artificial complexity systems and RNG/scaling-loot, these are incorrect additions to game, parasitic, worsening balance and progress), but why should this approach be different for last pvp part (season) in the same game? Those who mention MOBA games (at best, it should be about FPS, but there also have some pitfalls) are wrong, because time is also needed there, character gets experience and collects/buys gear => without items and time it'll be inconsequential, which still means tha-a-at.. What? True! => gear should matter.
=== Gear must matter for this game! ===

Without taking into account all these 3 factors, your discussion has no chance to be in any way constructive. We have already touched a bit of this here when I remembered Witch's curses (read quoted part there, it's just about your case): <url> (<url>)

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Quote №2.

In fact, problem in: they try to escape from mathematics, and impose conditions that were initially controlled completely through characteristics. Do you know how to do it right? Through stats and characteristics. And each ability in every formula will use them, that's all. Yes, yes, I see many of you already guessed where I'm heading - it's about resilience/pvp-power, which isn't included for pve-damage/healing (this by the way why healer with 'stacking' it will heal/regen/recover less and often very much less - as a penalty for a greater survival rate, or would be killed with several shots by other players) calculation formula for characters controlled by computer (except for those that are supposed to be used for pvp content, for example - BGs). The only thing that it shouldn't be attached to characters 'by default': let raid items give a certain size of resilience too, but very insignificant, and since pvp items have much more of it, it's more convenient for this part of content, than pve items should contain more others (parameters useful in another area) such as hit/expertise/mastery/def/amount of spirit and etc. Oh.. you didn't like it? What a pity.. but this is the way it works. Exactly! Stuff that not make you stronger in this part of content, but make you much more compatible with another. That's how to do it right. You don't need even care about how/where it's been used mode/flag/whatever.. but not through just switching off or weaken them without mathematics. This is why they so poor with balance, they just don't know how to control it proper. Apotheosis of this idiocy are pvp-perks.

Same way they came up with idea like items-talents - artifact/legendary/azerite armor and other nonsense instead of characteristics, so that they always have opportunity to take them away/switch off unhindered; and there is no need to solve problem with ilvl growth, even if its changes from 200-500 during one expansion, brilliant lazy solution together with scaling/M+/RNG-stuff; just switch them off! And the less such characteristics in game, the impunityer can developers behave. (2Qaren warmode have all problems only for 1 reason, it should be BG-mode, not something that replaced pvp-servers, and no any stupid pvp-perks can help with this). Do you see now how deep the rabbit hole goes? I already talked almost about all of these things:
<url><url><url>
The cycle is almost closed, wait for more later >:]

I understand that they don't want to give players opportunity to control this (parameters), as it can lead to some cunning and 'terrible' outcome that developers <url> haven't calculated. Do you know why? Because they're bad at math, because they still don't understand how this game works. They don't want RPG, they don't want math, they don't even want MMO, they just want 'options' <url> like more than a half of their current playbase ;}

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Don't pay special attention to "playful style" of communication, he always behaves this way
A little more explanation of this stuff here.

In short, according to 1st quote, point is that gear = characteristics are important for separation content areas, for individual RPG customization and as indicator of character's progress in this content (since “content” is available from the beginning for PvP, rating talks more about your skill, but gear - about your progress;

MoanaLisa
Limited time to play implies more solo play so PVE is a natural choice.

I'd say that statement would be true only if obtaining progress and content mostly tied to it (since limited time =<priority>= profit activities), but since there is no specialization in characteristics (PvP vs PvE) and PvP doesn't usually take precedence in direct progress for such conditions (since encounters aren't limited by CD, they're controlled(/exploitable) by players and take lesser time), your statement is absolutely true. It's logical, because conclusion in this case is obvious and no any stupid PvP talents will be able to prevent this. I'd criticize word "solo" in same way, but I won't.

these concepts are somewhat blurred for PVE (because of LFR/M+(-vicious opinion) multi-level difficulty, with mentioned balance/progress system's+ violation/overlap)). And 2nd talking about devs don't like characteristics and they're unnoticeably trying to remove/replace them (look at AA which don't have any).

2. Characteristics (&shame to PvP talent system + time-gate/catch-up/Azerite-remark) +(+/+)+/+/+(+/+)+

ps. Choose which of messages you understand more.

Your "competitive PvP" doesn't belong here, to this game, for very much objective reason:

City Pop
spontaneous and disorganized

That's the core of wPvP. Exceptions are games in which part of content/progress/wealth is hidden behind mechanics relating to this (siege of castles/hubs/dungeons entrances (=resource zone), when another group of people “manages” there). But if we touch title directly, then single and most modest question is very logical and instantly arises: what do you mean by balance? (what do you see under word "balanced" by yourself, taking into account that different classes should participate in combat (with this design, they shouldn't be that rubbish as happening in current, but taking into account all class advantages/disadvantages = strengths/weaknesses)). If you think that something like Overwatch (ex. any other MOBA game) can have any balance (any one that based on "heroes" with unique capabilities and abilities - can't have such balance, stuff, that they're trying to push, is already realized and it's something resembling CS style games, that is, where everyone is the same, absolutely same (absolutely equal to each other in opportunities and also lack of any progress system) and, by the way, only such design can easily fall under all rules of E-sports, only skill based and sessional), then you're cruelly mistaken in essence of this concept for current game.

Essence of balance here hiding in making that each of representatives not only gives something unique and quite useful gain/function for the group, but also what will serve/necessary for its stable existence. Therefore, as long as they try to practice design "I'm a hero and win them all" in style for each class (I don't claim at all that they're well advanced in this direction, but this is due to the same things that has already been said about Overwatch example; and stupid subscribers continue to ask for such things from devs and whine on forums that "they're killing us! it's not fair!" ) there is no justice in such war, all methods are good in it. I think, that they're suspecting something about it, but I don't see any results of this in current design.

I don’t say that those, who crying, aren't right, but it’s already (as never before) too far and long ago since system worked base on stone-scissors-paper principles, classes have lost all their “desserts”, only a “complex lunch” stayed which is required (and this is due to gameplay design for the sake of predetermination, max limitation of choice even in action: only just what is rotation, what is requirement, always necessary, which means is doomed to repeat with each fight, regardless of behavior and type of enemy). Actually, apparently, people really have something now to cry about... imo, MoP is the best and closest to design in this direction (universality, meaning E-Sport implies, and it doesn't matter in this case if I disagree with it, just in fact), classes tried to be “strong and cunning” in own way, but at the same time, most of them weren't stronger and more cunning than others + insufficiently killed organization of characteristics, but they cut only part of class and RPG mechanic back then (in principle, those which stupid Cataclysm turned into rudimentary, broke, deprived of significance and strength), stuff related to additional functionality began to move into expense of WoD, they finished the rest of it in Legion and began to feed you "temporary/limited" handouts...*looks at BFA* and now these is almost the only stuff that you have.

So... how do YOU see balance notion here?
(I suddenly realized that thread is trying to talk only about amount of both sides meat involved in action, which is generally outright nonsense with taking head quote into account, it's not only impossible, but also not necessary, all that is required for the process is to be addictive/interesting/fun and necessary(but not profitable)/inevitable *looks with laugh at WM toggle*= within un-cheat-able/glitch-less and solid shared world *looks with laugh at current world organization* (mhhh, battlegrounds obey this last rule at least, with only exception that you can get out of there, but this isn't wPvP in the end); by the way, I thought about it, and realized that WM fail probably is connected precisely with fact that they're still looking at wPvP through the prism of BG)

ps. Did you notice a trick? Anyway, it will rest on classes design in this matter, which means it will also depend on talents design and significance, usefulness and forethought design of characteristics, and thus will also be tied to itemization system, and thus ultimately to organization of progress system, which imposes conditions on content design nature as a whole, etc. and etc. That is the "chain of life" for this game.

2. Characteristics (&shame to PvP talent system + time-gate/catch-up/Azerite-remark) +(+/+/+)+/+/+(+/+)+
3. Classes philosophies+ (&thier coherence with whole design+resource/supports/balance) +(+/+/+/+/+/+)+(+)+/+(+)+
4. Some words about talents (&their connection with classes, items=talents) +(+)+(+/+/+/+)

All this was discussed to death already, and you have no right to demand such approach to balance, since this was it which led to class fantasy decomposition, destruction of game design organization. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be any balance at all, but place of its priority is at the very bottom and rest mostly on monopulation by numbers without violating all preceding paragraphs.

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tl;dr Gear should matter, it's demanded by game's healthy design of this genre.

The only place where it's irrelevant is at competitions held by company, but this is done only for entertainment and has no power to influence principles of organizing game's internal design. Just NONE...ANY...NOWAY!

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ps. Quotes are given mainly for variety and more visibility.

[Yizu]

Why should I get owned by people who play less than me? =)

[dragnipur]

You obtain better gear to perform better in the World, why would the same ideology not be in place for PvP?

After playing GW2's PvP i find WoW's way with gearing so out dated.When Blizzard implemented templates I agree they failed with it.They tried to copy paste GW2 but for some reason they made it worse.Still GW2 does it great.Characters are scaled to the same level.Stats is equalizedear can be and gear can be swapped easily because currency doesn't exist.
WoW's gearing process is out dated and just extends time played for no reason.

Why should I get owned by people who play less than me? =)

Because time played is not equal to skill.Do you even have to ask.
If someone is better than you but you have higher ilvl in PvP this is just a shit system.

[Alkizon]

Because time played is not equal to skill.Do you even have to ask.
If someone is better than you but you have higher ilvl in PvE this is just a shit system.

What if like this (changed), hmm?

Why it should be different there, this aspect isn't indicated anywhere in your "master logic". Explain, please. In my opinion, very same principles of "competition" are applied there, especially considering current design of all kinds of M+ and other nonsense. Come on, prove the unprovable. Try it. But without subjectivity (which can be killed by saying that "but I don't like its implementation in <game name>, convince me"). It doesn't matter where and what you like more, give me facts of how it affects game organization as a whole (remember that you are talking to person, who doesn't accept almost any form of scaling in progress, whether it's PvP or PvE).

[endersblade]

Welcome to World of Warcraft, I see you're new here.

[Gatto]

You reward is beating people cause you are skilled, not because you are geared.

I was being sarcastic.
You just had to read the first part to get it :d

[Swnem]

Couldnt agree more. They should have removed the templates from Legion from regular BGs and kept them in rated pvp. Never understood the hate for templates in Legion. I liked em and thought they long overdue.

Not even BG's.

I liked templates in Legion but the peeps that want to roflstomp with gear instead of skill got blizzards atention cause "rpg elements". Like that has any place in PvP.
Result: I was a heavy PvP'er in Legion, and in BfA i completely stopped. It's so unbalanced it's not even worth playing. Theres no fun in it.

That and the classic pre-mades vs randoms. PvP just isn't worth it for me in BfA. It's 99% frustration 1% enjoyment.

[Cmx]

Gear matters in pvp all the time, in every expansion (some exception yeah where skill overwhelmed gear)

[Syegfryed]

i miss WoD and others expansions about pvp, just get my conquest set and could do anything

now we are dooming to farm pve to get warforged things, or you be stomped

[Mikazukinoyaiba]

People that complained gear matter in PVP probably never reached Duelist+ anyway, After duelist-Glad, arena is the best place to get high ilvl.

If you cant reach 2100, you'll be stomped anyway, geared or not.