#DumpStarbucks: Blue Lives and the Right to Refuse Service

[Agrotera]

Yes, dying to serve your community is the same merit as you being clumsy. Yeah I am done with you. No point in discussing with someone who is prejudice against police.

You're obsession with romanticizing the police profession is an odd one my dude and its even odder that you're being so emotional about it. I didn't think saying that construction is a more dangerous job than being a police officer would get somebody in their feelings, but man, here we are. I mean, do you just not like the way its been said, or is it just refusal to concede a point to your arch nemesis? Because your right, there is huge merit in dying to serve your community but it doesn't make the profession the most dangerous one you could have.

[zenkai]

You're obsession with romanticizing the police profession is an odd one my dude and its even odder that you're being so emotional about it. I didn't think saying that construction is a more dangerous job than being a police officer would get somebody in their feelings, but man, here we are. I mean, do you just not like the way its been said, or is it just refusal to concede a point to your arch nemesis? Because your right, there is huge merit in dying to serve your community but it doesn't make the profession the most dangerous one you could have.

Romanticizing the police profession? Where did I do that? I am pointing out the difference between dying from an accident and drying from getting shot. I have no love for police officers who are high on power and abuse that power but I also acknowledge they have a difficult job for such low pay. I don't understand why anyone would want to be an officer especially with you anti police haters around that lump them all into the same group.

[Edge-]

I don't understand why anyone would want to be an officer especially with you anti police haters around that lump them all into the same group.

Criticizing corrupt behavior doesn't mean you hate the police. It means you hate corrupt behavior and those that defend it.

[zenkai]

Criticizing corrupt behavior doesn't mean you hate the police. It means you hate corrupt behavior and those that defend it.

But when you associate all officers as being corrupt you therefore hate all police.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Just like Endus you can't comprehends the difference between someone trying to kill you and you dying because you suck at safety.

Look at the goalposts move

[NoiseTank13]

Look at the goalposts move

Not only moving but doing donuts on the field.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Not only moving but doing donuts on the field.

I just love how as soon as Endus takes a position on an issue...there's immediately a line up of dudes all just waiting for their chance to disagree with him. It doesn't matter what the position is. Endus could say "Grass is green"...and they'd be like "well, my neighbours dog keeps pissing on my lawn and now I've got a section of grass that's yellow...so you're wrong!"

[NoiseTank13]

I'm almost positive that's a holdover from the days when Endus was Moderator. Of the Shaman sub-class forum and he'd debate people who'd lose their cool, throw a tantrum, get infracted, then blame Endus for the infraction, and they just never got over it and seldom had a valid point against him.

It's really kind of sad.

[Adam Jensen]

Specifically, I never mentioned "in NYC". I said "in the USA". He then wanted to talk only about NYC. So when I presented statistics that prove he's still wrong, about NYC specifically, now he wants to narrow it further to only "high crime areas" within NYC.

The facts are directly against him, but he'll never admit it.

Being a cop who's in an active shoot out is far more dangerous than a construction worker who's eating a ham sandwich on his break!

[Kellhound]

That would depend entirely on the context of the discussion.

In this context, where we were discussing whether how dangerous a job was meant it was deserving of special "adoration", no. It does not matter.

The entire point is that being a police officer is not a particularly dangerous profession. The type of danger present isn't relevant to that point.

And let me be clear; I'm not shitting on, say, an officer who got into a shootout with bank robbers, took out two of the criminals while getting some hostages to safety, and then got shot himself. That guy's heroic. He also is not representative of the vast majority of police officers, and pretending otherwise is bullshit.

Actually it IS a dangerous profession, in the top 15 overall in the US.

I will also disagree vehemently with you that the cause of the danger is not germane to the argument.

- - - Updated - - -

Because the "why" was completely irrelevant to my point.

I've explained this three times now. Your refusal to accept the facts and insistence on moving goalposts is just deliberate dishonesty.

I think what really matters is your point is irrelevant in why police are viewed differently.

[Endus]

Actually it IS a dangerous profession, in the top 15 overall in the US.

Along with "dangerous professions" like mowing lawns, construction labor, or driving trucks.

All of which have higher fatality rates than being a police officer.

The idea that cops are getting in shootouts every week is pure TV fantasy. The overwhelming majority of police officers will never even fire their sidearms in the course of their entire careers.

I will also disagree vehemently with you that the cause of the danger is not germane to the argument.

When the argument is "should we give police officers special respect because of how dangerous their jobs are", it really isn't.

I think what really matters is your point is irrelevant in why police are viewed differently.

My point, in fact, is that they should not be seen differently.

[Kellhound]

Along with "dangerous professions" like mowing lawns, construction labor, or driving trucks.

All of which have higher fatality rates than being a police officer.

The idea that cops are getting in shootouts every week is pure TV fantasy. The overwhelming majority of police officers will never even fire their sidearms in the course of their entire careers.



When the argument is "should we give police officers special respect because of how dangerous their jobs are", it really isn't.



My point, in fact, is that they should not be seen differently.

And our point is that the CAUSE of the danger DOES matter. Or do you believe that every accidental death should be treated like murder / every murder should be treated like an accident?

[Bryntrollian]

And as others pointed out, most accidents come from negligence , not for police though most of theirs problems come from people trying to hurt/kill them. You can't grasp the difference and that is what is sad.

- - - Updated - - -

Want to see a real cherry-pick? In 2018, the number of police officers who killed themselves severely outnumbered the amount that were killed by criminals in the line of duty. So, I guess we can say the majority of cop deaths were in-fact; self inflicted.

[Endus]

And our point is that the CAUSE of the danger DOES matter. Or do you believe that every accidental death should be treated like murder / every murder should be treated like an accident?

It's a complete nonsequitur. You keep insisting it has to matter, none of you have made any argument as to why that is.

We were talking about how dangerous the respective jobs were. Dying to a workplace accident isn't "less dangerous" than dying to an armed criminal. You're dead both ways. It's not relevant to the point.

I get that you want to make it about a different point, but that's moving goalposts, not addressing the argument I actually made.

[Kellhound]

It's a complete nonsequitur. You keep insisting it has to matter, none of you have made any argument as to why that is.

We were talking about how dangerous the respective jobs were. Dying to a workplace accident isn't "less dangerous" than dying to an armed criminal. You're dead both ways. It's not relevant to the point.

I get that you want to make it about a different point, but that's moving goalposts, not addressing the argument I actually made.

The argument you made is people should be respected for dying from their own carelessness as much as people that are murdered for doing their job.

[Endus]

The argument you made is people should be respected for dying from their own carelessness as much as people that are murdered for doing their job.

1> You have no cause to claim those other jobs are only dangerous because of negligence.
2> You also have no cause to claim negligence is not a contributor to police fatalities. They're not all due to violent criminals.
3> You're ignoring that my point was about police officers as a group, not the individuals who had been in a violent situation and either died to hostile action, or managed to survive. I'm fine with respecting those individuals, for their particular actions. I'm not willing to extend that respect to the career officer who's never unholstered his weapon outside of the range and whose biggest risk factor is his donut intake and lack of exercise regimen. Same way I'd respect a construction worker who put himself at risk to save a colleague when a crane began to topple, but not the average guy working a jackhammer.

[Kellhound]

1> You have no cause to claim those other jobs are only dangerous because of negligence.
2> You also have no cause to claim negligence is not a contributor to police fatalities. They're not all due to violent criminals.
3> You're ignoring that my point was about police officers as a group, not the individuals who had been in a violent situation and either died to hostile action, or managed to survive. I'm fine with respecting those individuals, for their particular actions. I'm not willing to extend that respect to the career officer who's never unholstered his weapon outside of the range and whose biggest risk factor is his donut intake and lack of exercise regimen. Same way I'd respect a construction worker who put himself at risk to save a colleague when a crane began to topple, but not the average guy working a jackhammer.

OSHA shows that of the 25 most dangerous jobs, only one has a leading cause of injury that isn't caused by negligence, police work.

[Deus Mortis]

OSHA shows that of the 25 most dangerous jobs, only one has a leading cause of injury that isn't caused by negligence, police work.

Already posted those links earlier in a reply to him, instead you just need to look at his comment.

whose biggest risk factor is his donut intake

It along with other statements he has made points towards him not liking the police. He is quick to jump on them but usually quiet when it comes to defending them.

Endus is correct on his main point of there are far more dangerous jobs than an officer when it comes to fatality rate, and you're correct on yours about the violence rate of jobs, like you said in the top 25 only police have their highest fatality cause due to violence.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Death is death. If you have a giant slab of concrete fall on you or get shot in the head, you're dead regardless. That the right is trying to politicize police deaths to force people to respect officers as a whole shows how remarkably desperate they are to demonize those who distrust officers enough to cause incidents like in the OP.

It's about as shitty as the people who tried to politicize Seth Rich's murder as some kind of grand conspiracy to demonize the DNC when there were very little concrete facts on the case.

[Noradin]

Incorrect. The police currently are the third most-trusted institution in America. The top 3 are the military, small businesses, and the police. If you think police relations with the public is bad, you are getting fake news.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/236243/...onfidence.aspx

The least trusted institutions in America are TV news and congress.

So in the whole of America there is just a single small business[es]?
Why use the plural then?