Minority Tyranny: GOP Determined to Dismantle Popular Healthcare <Again>

[cubby]

Ongoing in: One Party Really Resents Poor and Middle Class America Having Healthcare.

Basically this is Republican lawyers in front of Republican judges, arguing that insurance companies shouldn’t be required to cover prescription drugs or preexisting conditions.
Why?
One judge basically says "the process they used to repeal the law couldn't actually repeal the they, thus they actually wanted to repeal the law." This was after congress failed to get enough votes to actually repeal the ACA.

So to spite congress and popular will, these judges say humbug.


Republican judges appear to side with Texas challenge to Obamacare

Two Republican-appointed judges on the appeals panel hearing a Trump-backed challenge to Obamacare — a majority of the three-judge panel — suggested Tuesday that they might side with a lower court judge who said last year that the whole law should be struck down.

Lawyers from the Trump administration and a group of Republican states squared off against attorneys from a coalition of Democratic states and the House of Representatives in a New Orleans appeals court to argue the fate of the Affordable Care Act.

If the challenge is upheld, it threatens to wipe away coverage for millions of Americans, as well as the law’s protections for those with pre-existing conditions. And it would do what Congress failed to accomplish in 2017 — take down Obamacare.

Three 5th US Circuit Court of Appeals judges — one nominated by President Donald Trump, one by George W. Bush and one by Jimmy Carter — heard the arguments. Because the case is before one of the most conservative appellate courts in the country, it is almost guaranteed to wind up in the Supreme Court.

The lawsuit against the ACA was brought by 20 Republican state attorneys general and governors, as well as two individuals — though the number of attorneys general is now down to 18 after Democrats took control of Maine and Wisconsin in the midterm election last year. The challenge revolves around the congressional decision to effectively eliminate the individual mandate penalty by reducing it to $0 as part of the 2017 tax cut bill. The mandate requires nearly all Americans to get health insurance or pay a penalty.

The Republican coalition, led by Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton, maintains that the change rendered the mandate itself unconstitutional.

The states say that the voiding of the penalty, which took effect this year, removes the legal underpinning the Supreme Court relied upon when it upheld the law in 2012 under Congress’ tax power.

A federal judge in Texas agreed, ruling in December that the change invalidates Obamacare in its entirety. The law remains in effect while the case works its way through the courts.

Douglas Letter, arguing for the now-Democratic controlled House of Representatives, said that Texas and other states are exaggerating the impact of the law Trump signed in 2017 eliminating the mandate. Texas, he said, created a new excuse to challenge a law it doesn’t like, which was upheld in 2012.

“Texas said ‘HA! — you just did something unconstitutional,'” Letter said.

Even though the tax penalty is now $0, Letter argued, the choice people had still exists: buy insurance or don’t.

“The Supreme Court said unequivocally, either you shall maintain health insurance or incur a tax,” he said, adding that it doesn’t matter if that tax is $0.

“That means the choice is still there,” he said. In fact, he argued “there’s less coercion than there was before” to buy insurance.

Trump’s Justice Department wants law struck down
Notably, the Trump administration is not defending the law. Initially, it argued that zeroing out the penalty invalidates only two of the law’s protections of those with pre-existing conditions — specifically the provisions banning insurers from denying people policies or charging them more based on their medical histories.

But in a surprise move in March, the Justice Department said it now agrees with the December ruling that the entire Affordable Care Act should be struck down.

Trump is pinning his hopes on the court striking down the law, allowing him to fulfill his campaign promise to repeal it, but congressional Republicans are keeping their distance since it gives Democrats fodder to attack the GOP for not protecting those with pre-existing conditions — a hallmark of the landmark health reform law.


This is truly the Counter-Majoritarian Difficulty. When the party that lost the overall popular vote in the last two elections gets to dismantle popular government programs.

We're seeing a smaller version of this up in Alaska - with the minority party holding the majority hostage as the Governor eviscerates their budget.

[RaoBurning]

It doesn't solve anything, let alone everything

Stopping the massive swell of personal medical debt and postponing of medical attention because of lacking insurance seems like a pretty big win to me. I have pretty good insurance through work and I'm still getting random bills six months after my endoscopy for hundreds and, most recently, a thousand dollars, and that's after putting up hundreds of dollars up front for the appointment.

My uncle also lost his foot and is now in renal failure due to a year long series of medical issues that all started because his insurance at work hadn't kicked in hit, so politely miss me with your willfully ignorant bullshit.

[Deletedaccount1]

Stopping the massive swell of personal medical debt and postponing of medical attention because of lacking insurance seems like a pretty big win to me. I have pretty good insurance through work and I'm still getting random bills six months after my endoscopy for hundreds and, most recently, a thousand dollars, and that's after putting up hundreds of dollars up front for the appointment.

My uncle also lost his foot and is now in renal failure due to a year long series of medical issues that all started because his insurance at work hadn't kicked in hit, so politely miss me with your willfully ignorant bullshit.

Not an argument.

[RaoBurning]

Not an argument.

I wasn't making an argument. I was telling you very explicitly and in no uncertain terms that your very premise is flawed, untenable, and moreover, cruel. Everyone else in the world basically has this problem solved to an acceptable degree, and we just keep on being... us.

No, but routine visits for preventative care might help. I guess it's not worth even trying though, or soemthing.

Building on this for a second: I lost like a decade and change of being a useful human being because I was chronically depressed and fatigued starting around age 16. Dropped out of high school, dead end jobs coupled with persistent unemployment, yada yada. Surprise! Undiagnosed hypothyroid. Two little pills every day and now I'm normal again. Could have had all that time back if I were just born in Canada or something.

[Acidbaron]

Americans want affordable healthcare for themselves and others close to them, especially once they are inflicted by something that requires it. They simply don't want it for other americans, and this is something that goes beyond just racism.

Americans also believe too much tax money would go into creating a decent system and offering health, while at the same time being perfectly okay with how much tax money is not generated by having a large chunk of the population sick.

I guess this is what happens when you turn socialism into an bad word and keep your population dumb.

[Milchshake]

We're seeing a smaller version of this up in Alaska - with the minority party holding the majority hostage as the Governor eviscerates their budget.

Sorry Alaska.

Your Governor is also gutting the U of Alaska, wants to cut some 1500 positions. That caused a bit of a stir in academic circles last week.

These red states sure love being the Laboratories of Awful Ideas.

[ohtlmtlm]

Catching early symptoms only helps with certain diseases. Not with heart disease and strokes, you can't unclog your arteries. Type 2 diabetes and lower respiratory disease cannot be cured and neither can Alzheimer's.

A doctor might be able to sit down with someone who is say in their 40s and is obese and tell them "look, you are really unhealthy and you are going to die young if you don't immediately change how active you are, what you eat, and start taking heart medication." Whats the catch? This conversation takes place daily already and people rarely care to listen until they have a serious health scare like a heart attack by which time it is often too late.

what in the flying fuck.. stop talking out of your ass.

There are risk factors and indicators for heart disease AND strokes.. the two shining examples you picked. Things like cholesterol and blood pressure are the first tier of early detection.

blood tests and a 3 minute blood pressure check from an interns intern could tell you a considerable amount about your overall health.

getting on medication to lower your blood pressure goes miles to lengthening the life of someone at risk for heart disease and most of the medication to treat blood pressure is relatively cheap, even in the US. there's also medication to reduce "plaque" levels in your blood vessels aka reducing risk of stroke. The idea is you treat things BEFORE they can progress into heart disease/ heart attacks and strokes by use of PREVENTATIVE medication. this is not remotely complicated to anyone

[Edge-]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...=.98b8d74676b3

The Trump administration pulled one of its key proposals to lower drug prices by eliminating industry rebates in Medicare — a policy its top health official had touted as one of the most significant changes to curb medicine costs for consumers.

The rule is the second major drug pricing effort to collapse this week, revealing the internal conflicts surrounding the question of how to lower prescription drug costs, which President Trump is eager to campaign on as he courts voters for his reelection.

Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar and top White House policy advisers had disagreed over the merits of the rule, which has been a growing source of tension between the two camps. Azar proposed the rule in January as a central plank of the administration’s effort to lower drug prices, and had proposed implementing the change next year. But policy advisers at the White House bristled at the rule’s nearly $180 billion estimated price tag over a decade and questioned whether it would be effective.

Oh look, more failures on health care/insurance from this White House. How shocking and surprising.

[Felya]

Like I said, I don't know how you make people eat healthier and be more active but putting aside the stupid healthcare debate, it needs to happen because the obesity epidemic is absolutely out of control.

A doctor has to make a case that it can lead to issues. The fact that you don’t know that doctors are the ones who diagnose people, to let them know how to alter their habits, is bias. It cannot be anything else, since a doctor issuing a diagnosis and prescription of treatment, is their job. By saying you don’t know, you are saying you don’t know what a doctor’s job actually is.

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https://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...=.98b8d74676b3

Oh look, more failures on health care/insurance from this White House. How shocking and surprising.

That’s actually a good thing... a rebate doesn’t actually impact cost and has potential to increase it. It shift the cost to the tax payer, while letting for profit companies dictate cost, while knowing it will be covered by government. It’s like the guy who increased cost of a drug by 3000%... a rebate would shift the cost to the taxpayers, who don’t get coverage as a result of their taxes paying the rebate. A rebate on drugs that insurance is supposed to cover as part of their job...

[cubby]

Sorry Alaska.

Your Governor is also gutting the U of Alaska, wants to cut some 1500 positions. That caused a bit of a stir in academic circles last week.

These red states sure love being the Laboratories of Awful Ideas.

The irony is that Alaska isn't a Red State - certainly not blue, but the legislature is majority Dem and a fluke got the Gov in this time around - would have been a Dem. This is a case of the GOP minority holding the majority hostage, and in the process gutting the state.

[jeezusisacasual]

Not an argument.

It is an argument simply due to the fact that if their uncle was born in any western 1st world nation they would not have the medical issues they are currently dealing with. We owe it to each other for medical care because when that person who goes untreated and ends up disabled at the age of 37 instead of being productive and paying into the system it hurts everyone. It does not take rocket surgery to understand that the collective is more important then the singular.

[Milchshake]

The irony is that Alaska isn't a Red State - certainly not blue, but the legislature is majority Dem and a fluke got the Gov in this time around - would have been a Dem. This is a case of the GOP minority holding the majority hostage, and in the process gutting the state.

Well hurry up and join the rest of the West Coast and vote with total Dem control!

[Felya]

Well hurry up and join the rest of the West Coast and vote with total Dem control!

Every time I check the thread and see your avatar talk about Alaska, it just makes this song get ear wormed... not a bad thing...

But, I am not sure total democratic control would help Alaska. They are in a unique position where a lot of places won’t have treatment, even with universal care. The remote nature is a hindrance most Americans don’t face.

[Deletedaccount1]

I wasn't making an argument. I was telling you very explicitly and in no uncertain terms that your very premise is flawed, untenable, and moreover, cruel. Everyone else in the world basically has this problem solved to an acceptable degree, and we just keep on being... us.

You seem to think that there aren't drawbacks to any system and that we could simply replace our current healthcare system and suddenly all the problems people face with insurance would go away. For one, the two anecdotes you provide seem bizarre to me and not providing the full story. I have never had problems with my insurance and neither has anyone I know so that is my counter-anecdote.

If we are going off of our experiences, mine have been far worse with socialized medicine. I was staying with family friends in the suburbs of Paris about 10 years ago. They had a narrow staircase where I tripped and broke my leg and collarbone, it took about 3 hours to get me into the ER because of the long queues. A similar situation happened to me when I was a kid in Japan and I was stung by a jellyfish. If either of those things happened to me where I live now in the States, I would be in the ER within 15 minutes.

You aren't giving an honest assessment of how both of these systems function, you are simply looking at the worst of one and the best of the other. That's not how real life works. There are no magical solutions, only trade-offs (Edit: I accidentally plagiarized this line from Sowell). If the US were to adopt socialized medicine, it would cost $32 trillion over 10 years by most estimates. Instead of expensive insurance bills, you would pay more in taxes. You would need to wait longer to see doctors (America is already short on doctors due to, among other things, occupational licensing) and of course, most of the costs would not be paid by taxes they would just be added onto our national debt in the long run.

- - - Updated - - -

what in the flying fuck.. stop talking out of your ass.

There are risk factors and indicators for heart disease AND strokes.. the two shining examples you picked. Things like cholesterol and blood pressure are the first tier of early detection.

blood tests and a 3 minute blood pressure check from an interns intern could tell you a considerable amount about your overall health.

getting on medication to lower your blood pressure goes miles to lengthening the life of someone at risk for heart disease and most of the medication to treat blood pressure is relatively cheap, even in the US. there's also medication to reduce "plaque" levels in your blood vessels aka reducing risk of stroke. The idea is you treat things BEFORE they can progress into heart disease/ heart attacks and strokes by use of PREVENTATIVE medication. this is not remotely complicated to anyone

I said early symptoms, not risk factors. There certainly is medication you take that will help combined with lifestyle changes but I was referring to when someone is actually diagnosed which might be when they feel fine. Again, this is why insurance covers medication.

[Orlong]

Of course when this blows up in the GOP's face, they'll attempt to play damage control by blaming the Democrats on the poor state of healthcare. "Look, we didn't want to repeal it, but we had to. Blame the Democrats for passing it in the first place! We never would have had to repeal it if they didn't pass it, so this is ultimately their fault!" As fucked up as that sounds, some 30% of the country will guzzle that kool-aid like it's cocaine.

It IS the democrats fault for the state of healthcare as they are the ones that passed the ACA in the middle of the night by wheeling Robert Byrd in on a gurney to get the last vote that they needed. Ever since that damn law passed my healthcare has gotten worse. Longer waits, higher deductibles, and a higher contribution to my insurance. The only people who like the ACA are the cheapskates that didnt want to pay for insurance before and can now get it cheaper because of the subsidies they are given after yanking it out of mine and other hard working people's wallets

[Felya]

It IS the democrats fault for the state of healthcare as they are the ones that passed the ACA in the middle of the night by wheeling Robert Byrd in on a gurney to get the last vote that they needed. Ever since that damn law passed my healthcare has gotten worse. Longer waits, higher deductibles, and a higher contribution to my insurance.

No one is going to buy this, because you already told everyone you are a government employee.

[Orlong]

No one is going to buy this, because you already told everyone you are a government employee.

Yeah, but that doesnt mean I dont pay for my healthcare, and with all the people who didnt have it before in the system now the waits are too long

[Draco-Onis]

It IS the democrats fault for the state of healthcare as they are the ones that passed the ACA in the middle of the night

Complete and utter bullshit the ACA took almost a full year to pass went through several rewrites and committees several passages of it were added by republicans. I mean for fuck sake the ACA was the brain child of Newt Gingrich with the heritage foundation and implemented by Mitt Romney you know republicans.

[Deletedaccount1]

No one is going to buy this, because you already told everyone you are a government employee.

Most government employees are on Blue Cross Blue Shield.

[Gestopft]

Oh look, more failures on health care/insurance from this White House. How shocking and surprising.

Failure? But it was exactly what the drug companies wanted...