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  1. #21
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by therealstegblob View Post
    This is a lot of mental gymnastics to try and defend shitty writing, dude. Depending on who you ask at Blizzard, two things happened: 1.) Arthas was actually "trying to destroy the scourge" and was fighting against the Lich King's will or 2.) It was just bad writing.
    Not really - I mean, you've seen firsthand how powerful the PC/Champion is and otherwise can be, why wouldn't the Lich King want a veritable army of super-powered soldiers working for him in the Scourge. Arthas wasn't "fighting against the Lich King's will" because as of "Rise of Lich King" he'd completely extirpated Ner'zhul from his consciousness and essentially destroyed him - Arthas was the Lich King at that point, not a separate entity fighting for control. This isn't to say there couldn't be a better version of the story, either; I'm just saying that between the two options of "Arthas lures a bunch of heroes to him to try to corrupt them in a perverse version of what had happened to him" and "Arthas leads the Scourge on another ho-hum invasion that the Horde and Alliance repulse" the former strikes me as the better of the two stories.

    Not to say it doesn't have issues, but it's still both thematically and dramatically better for the game itself in my opinion.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Not really
    Yes really and I'm not arguing about this, sorry.

    It was bad writing that didn't make sense, it just had to fit around why we were "allowed" to go in and kill a bunch of the Lich King's powerful minions when the Lich King could have just oneshot us at any point of not only the raid, but the entire expansion.

    "Hey if the Lich King can just oneshot the whole raid, why didn't he do that as soon as they came through the door?"

    "Uhhh wow you're right, just throw in some line about how he wanted to 'test' you first or something."

    because as of "Rise of Lich King" he'd completely extirpated Ner'zhul from his consciousness and essentially destroyed him - Arthas was the Lich King at that point, not a separate entity fighting for control.
    It was cited somewhere that Arthas was trying to undermine the scourge and that he actively was attempting to lead it to losing the war. I dunno if this was prior or after Rise of the Lich King (an awful book and one of Golden's worst, but this is beside the point) since the entirety of the Lich King's retcon-laden and confusing story is a pure mess to navigate, but I'm not arguing about when it happened or if it's canon anymore or not. The point is that they said it at some point to try and explain Arthas' stupid "plan".

    You're not winning this argument and frankly I'm not continuing it. Good luck.

  3. #23
    Moderator Rozz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxrokur View Post
    Let's be real, the murder hobos are really op and likely some of them would had turned into other type of undead like blood mage, liches, some unholy/death magic for the priest, etc. The guy who controls the 25 hobos, literally will control the world.
    Yeah but I'm trying to see it from a more lore based angle. The PC murder hobos are really OP and don't fit well in the story bc of game mechanics. But even with his mini army, that's only a handful of potential liches and blood mages compared to all those he lost. It's not even quality over quantity, when he lost his most historic and knowledgeable to upstarts.
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  4. #24
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by therealstegblob View Post
    Yes really and I'm not arguing about this, sorry.

    It was bad writing that didn't make sense, it just had to fit around why we were "allowed" to go in and kill a bunch of the Lich King's powerful minions when the Lich King could have just oneshot us at any point of not only the raid, but the entire expansion.

    "Hey if the Lich King can just oneshot the whole raid, why didn't he do that as soon as they came through the door?"

    "Uhhh wow you're right, just throw in some line about how he wanted to 'test' you first or something."
    He pretty much says it outright - he wanted to us to grow in power, and he wanted to test both our resolve and willingness to do all that it took. His challenges and obstacles basically winnowed down the weakest of the vanguard sent to Northrend until only the strongest and best fighters remained to confront him at Icecrown, and it was those he would take as his own. These are pretty classical fantasy tropes at play - nothing really new to WoW, as it were. There were several key moments in WotLK where the Lich King could've killed the PC directly - at Nifflevar, Valhalas, when we enter to Veil of Shadows to help Koltira, etc. etc. He chose not to kill them outright because he wanted them to be ready, "to be ripe" as he puts it himself.

    The Lich King could've easily killed us all whenever he wanted, but that wasn't what he wanted. He wanted to sire powerful new agents of the Scourge while simultaneous stripping the Horde and Alliance of the best and brightest in the process. He was more than willing to sacrifice a few mooks to do it, as well. If we could defeat them then we'd be even greater prizes once we were Scourge.

    Quote Originally Posted by therealstegblob View Post
    It was cited somewhere that Arthas was trying to undermine the scourge and that he actively was attempting to lead it to losing the war. I dunno if this was prior or after Rise of the Lich King (an awful book and one of Golden's worst, but this is beside the point) since the entirety of the Lich King's retcon-laden and confusing story is a pure mess to navigate, but I'm not arguing about when it happened or if it's canon anymore or not. The point is that they said it at some point to try and explain Arthas' stupid "plan".

    You're not winning this argument and frankly I'm not continuing it. Good luck.
    You'll have to provide some form of actual citation for that if you have any interest in making a valid argument, then; "somewhere" is pretty nebulous and it's directly contravened by both "Rise of the Lich King" and "Chronicle Vol. 3."

    Criticism is easy at the end of the day, but it does need some kind of backing to be valid.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rozz View Post
    Yeah but I'm trying to see it from a more lore based angle. The PC murder hobos are really OP and don't fit well in the story bc of game mechanics. But even with his mini army, that's only a handful of potential liches and blood mages compared to all those he lost. It's not even quality over quantity, when he lost his most historic and knowledgeable to upstarts.
    I don't know if I'd even say he lost his most historic and knowledgeable, really. I mean Kel'Thuzad was certainly a loss, as well as a storied character stretching back all the way to WC3. But who else did he lose? Lana'thel was completely unheard of until the release of ICC. Ditto for Rotface and Festergut, both of whom are just named Abominations. Doctor Putricide was entirely new, as well, as well as the entire San'layn Blood Council (they'd been encountered in Northrend but were new to WotLK all the same). Sindragosa might qualify as a loss, given her unique nature - but she wasn't irreplaceable, either; he had no real want for powerful Frost Wyrms (and given the fact that Sapphiron returns after Naxx40 she may not have been completely lost either).

    The Scourge wasn't known for its array of unique and storied characters, being more in the mold of implacable and interchangeable hive-mind than anything else. I think it more likely that the Lich King was willing to cut away the dross from his own ranks if it meant scoring a stable of ultra-powerful Scourge generals and commanders.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    You'll have to provide some form of actual citation for that if you have any interest in making a valid argument, then; "somewhere" is pretty nebulous and it's directly contravened by both "Rise of the Lich King" and "Chronicle Vol. 3."
    I'm not citing anything because, as I just explained to you in simple english: It doesn't matter if it's still canon or has been decanonized, the point was, at some time, that it was part of their explanation for bad writing at the hands of game mechanics.

    Criticism is easy at the end of the day, but it does need some kind of backing to be valid.
    Of all the problems this forum has, the fact you can't put a moderator on ignore is easily one of the worst of them. How exhausting.

  6. #26
    Moderator Rozz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I don't know if I'd even say he lost his most historic and knowledgeable, really. I mean Kel'Thuzad was certainly a loss, as well as a storied character stretching back all the way to WC3. But who else did he lose? Lana'thel was completely unheard of until the release of ICC. Ditto for Rotface and Festergut, both of whom are just named Abominations. Doctor Putricide was entirely new, as well, as well as the entire San'layn Blood Council (they'd been encountered in Northrend but were new to WotLK all the same). Sindragosa might qualify as a loss, given her unique nature - but she wasn't irreplaceable, either; he had no real want for powerful Frost Wyrms (and given the fact that Sapphiron returns after Naxx40 she may not have been completely lost either).

    The Scourge wasn't known for its array of unique and storied characters, being more in the mold of implacable and interchangeable hive-mind than anything else. I think it more likely that the Lich King was willing to cut away the dross from his own ranks if it meant scoring a stable of ultra-powerful Scourge generals and commanders.
    To be fair they were new characters and are expected to be the best at their position. That's more than the faceless PCs who were only able to storm ICC because of game mechanics, which the writing does its best to acknowledge while also sweeping under the rug. I don't think a random PC mage turned blood mage is going to have the same knowledge or power as Lana'thel, nor would a PC with maxed alchemy be as good as Putricide. It's just not an even trade off, because these general types are flat out better than each individual champion. If it takes 25 champions to equate to one Lich King general, why waste them? There isn't even a guarantee all 25 will even be as powerful. It's entirely possible he could've lost most of his best for 4/25 gems. That still doesn't make up for his losses across all of Northrend imo
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  7. #27
    Yeah, sure. A zombie plague would decimate in a battle between two armies of equal size. I doubt you'd find such a perfect scenario in a real battle though.
    "I pulled up to moonglade about 7 or 8
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  8. #28
    "Zombie plague"
    Reminds me of the pre-event to WotLK.

  9. #29
    Legendary! Dellis0991's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gatto View Post
    During Lordaeron assault, doesn't Sylvanas resurrect as undeads ( not forsaken ) both hordes and alliance soldiers?
    She raised skeletons, and death knight versed in necromancy can raise skeletal warriors, Sylvanas necromancy is weak compared to most death knights who can raise and control better stronger undead.

  10. #30
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rozz View Post
    To be fair they were new characters and are expected to be the best at their position. That's more than the faceless PCs who were only able to storm ICC because of game mechanics, which the writing does its best to acknowledge while also sweeping under the rug. I don't think a random PC mage turned blood mage is going to have the same knowledge or power as Lana'thel, nor would a PC with maxed alchemy be as good as Putricide. It's just not an even trade off, because these general types are flat out better than each individual champion. If it takes 25 champions to equate to one Lich King general, why waste them? There isn't even a guarantee all 25 will even be as powerful. It's entirely possible he could've lost most of his best for 4/25 gems. That still doesn't make up for his losses across all of Northrend imo
    I try not to mix my internal narrative with my game mechanics, as it were - the story is at pains to establish the Ashen Verdict as the best of the best, which was what the whole Argent Tournament aspect of WotLK was all about determining. The working model here is that the PC's who storm the gates of Icecrown Citadel are the cream of the proverbial crop - having faced down challenge after challenge, including a nearly freed Old God, and were physically and mentally prepared to bring the fight to the Lich King's very door. As for knowledge and/or power, the Lich King knew everything that both Lana'thel and Putricide would know, by virtue of being the master of the Scourge's hive-mind - I don't think it would be difficult for him to bestow that knowledge on the best candidates from those newly-acquired Scourge generals in this scenario. Lana'thel, prior to her transformation, was essentially a nobody who accompanied Kael'thas and Illidan to Northrend to avenge herself upon the Lich King, so she wouldn't really have anything in the way of special knowledge. Putricide is a good case, but then the above still applies - the Lich King would transfer his knowledge to the minion of his choosing as well (and we don't really know if Putricide was all that much of an asset, he doesn't seem altogether stable or even very competent in his fight).

    In the Lich King's own calculus, I don't think he found any of his current minions so important they couldn't be sacrificed to achieve his desired end. There's also the fact to consider that he would win thrice in this scenario - one in gaining new and powerful minions for himself, another in taking them directly away from the Horde and Alliance, and again in the nature of the former two victories. The very notion of the Alliance and Horde's greater champions returning as Scourge monstrosities is itself a symbolic win for the Lich King - the very idea would grip both of the factions in unreasoning horror. A hero lost is a tragedy, but it could galvanize the survivors all the same and become something to rally around, a hero perverted into a monster is far worse.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  11. #31
    pretty sure necromancy isn't some secret art only available to one faction...

    especially if we just look at 'raising' dead forms into some sort of functional frontline force... void elves are showing they CAN do void puppet whatever bullshit as well.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    1. "barely raises" there is not a "barely" they were raised or they wernt.
    2. skeletons are undead.
    There's a big difference between raising someone as a mindless skeleton and raising them as a free-willed undead. Sylvanas did the former in this case.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Rozz View Post
    Yeah but I'm trying to see it from a more lore based angle. The PC murder hobos are really OP and don't fit well in the story bc of game mechanics. But even with his mini army, that's only a handful of potential liches and blood mages compared to all those he lost. It's not even quality over quantity, when he lost his most historic and knowledgeable to upstarts.
    Well Chronicles actually mention the band of the hobos as part of the army of mercenaries that helped the neutral faction to deal with world threats. However maybe there is something behind scene like Azeroth lending her powers to that band of hobos whenever they are fighting some big bad wolf which won't be a surprised move from Blizzard, after all they want to make the PC to have some relevance in the story.
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  14. #34
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    There's a big difference between raising someone as a mindless skeleton and raising them as a free-willed undead. Sylvanas did the former in this case.
    there is a difference between forsaken, and undead.
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  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I try not to mix my internal narrative with my game mechanics, as it were - the story is at pains to establish the Ashen Verdict as the best of the best, which was what the whole Argent Tournament aspect of WotLK was all about determining. The working model here is that the PC's who storm the gates of Icecrown Citadel are the cream of the proverbial crop - having faced down challenge after challenge, including a nearly freed Old God, and were physically and mentally prepared to bring the fight to the Lich King's very door. As for knowledge and/or power, the Lich King knew everything that both Lana'thel and Putricide would know, by virtue of being the master of the Scourge's hive-mind - I don't think it would be difficult for him to bestow that knowledge on the best candidates from those newly-acquired Scourge generals in this scenario. Lana'thel, prior to her transformation, was essentially a nobody who accompanied Kael'thas and Illidan to Northrend to avenge herself upon the Lich King, so she wouldn't really have anything in the way of special knowledge. Putricide is a good case, but then the above still applies - the Lich King would transfer his knowledge to the minion of his choosing as well (and we don't really know if Putricide was all that much of an asset, he doesn't seem altogether stable or even very competent in his fight).

    In the Lich King's own calculus, I don't think he found any of his current minions so important they couldn't be sacrificed to achieve his desired end. There's also the fact to consider that he would win thrice in this scenario - one in gaining new and powerful minions for himself, another in taking them directly away from the Horde and Alliance, and again in the nature of the former two victories. The very notion of the Alliance and Horde's greater champions returning as Scourge monstrosities is itself a symbolic win for the Lich King - the very idea would grip both of the factions in unreasoning horror. A hero lost is a tragedy, but it could galvanize the survivors all the same and become something to rally around, a hero perverted into a monster is far worse.
    He didnt even lose anything, as shown in dk legion campaign and the return of naxxramas undeads can be reraised by the Lich King power, we didnt even killed KT because we never found or destroyed his phylatelly so he is "Alive" somewhere else doing a) bolvar will b) trying to bring back arthas

    In fact there is a new undead cult non related to bolvar lk (as far as we know) trying to collect azerithe on islands expeditions
    Last edited by azkhane; 2019-07-12 at 12:53 PM.

  16. #36
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azkhane View Post
    He didnt even lose anything, as shown in dk legion campaign and the return of naxxramas undeads can be reraised by the Lich King power, we didnt even killed KT because we never found or destroyed his phylatelly so he is "Alive" somewhere else doing a) bolvar will b) trying to bring back arthas
    Well, some can be raised again (e.g. Sapphiron, possibly Sindragosa, probably the flesh giants, etc. etc.) and some are more or less unique and can't be, or at least not so easily. Kel'Thuzad may or may not return, depending on the circumstances, but if Arthas had been victorious it's pretty easy for me to see him being reconstituted since as you said the phylactery was still in play somewhere. I would agree that the Lich King's losses weren't nearly as total as otherwise claimed, though.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    There's a big difference between raising someone as a mindless skeleton and raising them as a free-willed undead. Sylvanas did the former in this case.
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    there is a difference between forsaken, and undead.
    Undead is more or less a general descriptor and classification - the Forsaken are undead, but of a specific type. Other types of undead are zombies, ghouls, ghosts, banshees, and skeletons. Free-willed mindfulness is part of what being a Forsaken is, but other types of undead beings can also be free-willed (or at least intelligent) like Obrahiim the Traveler, a skeleton but also one of the Scourge's chief architects.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  17. #37
    Immortal Flurryfang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gatto View Post
    Given a battle between two armies H and A, which let's say start with the same number of soldiers, and given the fact that both sides will have some losses in terms of men, shouldn't the horde be able to gain 100% extra soldiers from Alliance and let's say from 50% to 75% from their own faction, just by raising undeads?

    In a middle/long term scenario, won't the horde be able to overhang the alliance?

    Am I missing anything?
    99,99% of all battles ever fought have not been two armies just taking their numbers and smashing them into each other. Even the battles in WoW have not been like that, where tech and magic have mattered more than the actual number of troops.

    So with the Val'kyr on the side of the Horde, the Alliance would proberly create many more situations, where anduin or somebody else could ress or heal the fallen before they were taken off to be raised as undead.

    If you think in numbers, sure, but then again, there is only a few val'kyrs left and taking them to a big battle will proberly just get them killed.
    May the lore be great and the stories interesting. A game without a story, is a game without a soul. Value the lore and it will reward you with fun!

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  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    he was stopped by what was effectively a divine intervention.
    Again...
    It was not divine intervention, Light is not god, Light has no mind, Light is just power

  19. #39
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    Again...
    It was not divine intervention, Light is not god, Light has no mind, Light is just power
    Not really sure what else one would call it - Tyrion was immobilized and unable to respond, and then he quite literally calls out to the Light and is suddenly freed from what had bound him the entire fight and was able to leap through the air and shatter Frostmourne in a single blow. We know that the Light, or some agent acting on its behalf, does sometimes answer the call of its adherents - so whether you want to call it the Light, Elune, a Light-Lord, or the Naaru themselves feel free. It would still be divine intervention.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  20. #40
    ^One reason why I despise the idea of a forsaken paladin. It's just too ridiculous to me. (I'm aware of the exception in lore. But such shouldn't be seen as a reason to expand upon it)

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