Shadowbringer Spoiler Discussion Thread

[blackblade]

While I thoroughly enjoyed the story, I don't quite get Emet-Selch being Hades. Is there some historical reference inside FF14 or FF in general that I don't know? I only know of Hades as a shit tier Summon in FF7 and a boss in FF9. I know Hades is god of the underworld and that is kind of fitting given Emet-Selch's role, but him announcing I am Hades didn't do anything but confuse me. Is Hades some kind of elder primal or something? It felt super glossed over, but maybe I missed something in text or a cutscene? I thought I watched them all up, but maybe I missed something?

Emet-Selch is a station, a title. It would akin to calling him 'Mr. President'. Hades is the man behind the mask.

[Florena]

Oof, hard disagree there. Lahabrea was a one-note joke of a villain. Emet-Selch was anything but that. His role in this plot expanded the narrative of the game beyond anything that we've experienced before. We learned exactly what the Ascians want to do, how they're going to do it, and most importantly, why. Until Shadowbringers it was, "Ascians worship Zodiark who wants to destroy Hydaelyn."

What made it different from a "palette-swap of an old, cliche, demon invasion" (Which FF14 has never done so I don't know if that's an even fair comment to begin to make), was the personal stories of the characters. Ryne, Ardbert, and yourself especially. We're not just the Warrior of Light in this expansion (Or darkness), they're directly giving us backstory for our character.

I don't think I could possibly disagree more with the notion that the first 80% of the game was some retread.

Yes and no. I was disappointed that being the warrior of darkness didn't mean USING darkness but just using our blessing of light to be a light batter. I can also see the msq as feeling fairly formulaic in the middle 50-60% where the story is 'go to zone to kill light warden while Ran'jit tries to thwart you' for three zones. I thought the tempest was an underwhelming final zone, until I got to the final segment of it and saw the city. But all in all I thought it was the best the msq has been in the whole game.

And I really don't see a similarity between Emet and Lahabrea. Emet has an actual motivation and, while his impossibly high standards set us up to fail, I feel was sincere in hoping that we'd be able to do the job and taht he could try another approach with us. I can feel this palpable sense of him just being tired after so long. Lahabrea lacked any sort of depth or sympathetic motivation. The only thing they have in common is being unsundered ascians, Emet felt like far from a rehash of Lahabrea to me.

People have been talking about the Sin Eater boss at the end of Mt.Gulg being the Drahn Songstress we end up sending up to Vauthry for 'Ascension' at the start of the expansion. But is there any confirmation of that?

I mean i guess its better than being turned to Meol and part of his dinner but still.

So far as I know we never see her again and there's no confirmation, but I assume she 'ascended' since she wasn't in Eulmore when we went back that I could see.

[Yoshingo]

Yes and no. I was disappointed that being the warrior of darkness didn't mean USING darkness but just using our blessing of light to be a light batter.

I mean I figured this was pretty clear what the story meant after the various trailers for the expansion and seeing/hearing Yoshi-P talk about what the Warrior of Light would be doing in the First. They couldn't just give everybody all dark abilities, that'd be a massive undertaking for a single expansion's opening patch.

I can also see the msq as feeling fairly formulaic in the middle 50-60% where the story is 'go to zone to kill light warden while Ran'jit tries to thwart you' for three zones.

I think this omits an important part in those zones: The character development of the various scions. Ryne, Thancred, Y'shtola, and even Alphinaud finally realizing he can't just argue everybody out of their bad positions. Him realizing that Vauthry WASN'T him from ARR and he couldn't just convince him to do the right thing was a small, yet important, moment for him expansions in the making.

Besides the Scions, the fact that, starting around Rak'tika, Emet-Selch begins giving more and more backstory to the universe and the Warrior of Light, I think makes up for Rak'Tika and the other half of Ahm Areng not being the most super interesting zone stories.

And I really don't see a similarity between Emet and Lahabrea. Emet has an actual motivation and, while his impossibly high standards set us up to fail, I feel was sincere in hoping that we'd be able to do the job and taht he could try another approach with us. I can feel this palpable sense of him just being tired after so long. Lahabrea lacked any sort of depth or sympathetic motivation. The only thing they have in common is being unsundered ascians, Emet felt like far from a rehash of Lahabrea to me.

...what? I didn't say they were similar. I said that Emet-Selch was far above and beyond better than Lahabrea as a villain because Lahabrea was a one note stereotype.

[Merie]

Elidibus might have tried to do that maliciously, but I honestly feel like Emet-Selch just missed us as we were clearly one of his friends once and he just wanted us to be whole again so that maybe we'd actually see his point of view.

It's why he goes from smarmy charming bastard to increasingly unhinged the closer we get to the end. I think at some point before the cutscene at The Ladder, he finally realizes it as he's talking about Amaurot and then every time after that scene, he's more and more unhinged and trying to get us to become ourselves again either through rejoining or accomplishing his mission---where he believes he'd bring us back to life anyway.

Just such a great villain in every possible way. I hope they have more in store for Elidibus because he's so boring compared to the other Ascians, even Lahabrea (Who was a stereotypical Kingdom Hearts villain).

That could explain why Hades wasn't so devastated when "the plan" went off the rails following the death of the first light warden or two. If joining with more of our shards makes us more like our former self and we were something to him in our previous life, then he may have thought that by gaining back more of our memories we would better understand him and relate to the "necessity" his plan to the point of helping him advance it. With all the lightswardens' power at our disposal, we would have been an even more effective catalyst than Vaulthry.

[Yoshingo]

If joining with more of our shards makes us more like our former self and we were something to him in our previous life, then he may have thought that by gaining back more of our memories we would better understand him and relate to the "necessity" his plan to the point of helping him advance it.

The tragic thing is that basically the Scions acknowledge that his plan has merit from a cold logic point of view, but he's caused millions of deaths and will cause millions more if they accomplish it so they have to stand against it. And we're right by their side.

So even after we begin to realize who we once we, we still choose to stand with the 'lesser beings' instead of him.

It's all rather sad, even when he shoots G'raha Tia after we kill Innocence and he's laughing about us probably killing our friends, he still wants us to come to him so we can succumb in his presence. On the surface it seems like he's just asking for that because he wants to use us as the new Mega-Lightwarden, but he can travel through space and time with ease, so if we turned anywhere else he could just come get us. I think he just wanted to be with us in our final moment before we became a mindless beast.

All of his dialogue in the second half of the final trial is him realizing that he's not going to win but trying to push on because he has nothing else and if he fails, he's suffered for millions of years for nothing. And that's why his smirk at the end before he dies is so heartbreaking.

[Merie]

The tragic thing is that basically the Scions acknowledge that his plan has merit from a cold logic point of view, but he's caused millions of deaths and will cause millions more if they accomplish it so they have to stand against it. And we're right by their side.

He also doesn't consider killing us to be murder because he doesn't consider us people. I probably would feel the same way if I were killing wasps or something else beneath me in order to save my home.

So even after we begin to realize who we once we, we still choose to stand with the 'lesser beings' instead of him.

It's all rather sad, even when he shoots G'raha Tia after we kill Innocence and he's laughing about us probably killing our friends, he still wants us to come to him so we can succumb in his presence. On the surface it seems like he's just asking for that because he wants to use us as the new Mega-Lightwarden, but he can travel through space and time with ease, so if we turned anywhere else he could just come get us. I think he just wanted to be with us in our final moment before we became a mindless beast.

All of his dialogue in the second half of the final trial is him realizing that he's not going to win but trying to push on because he has nothing else and if he fails, he's suffered for millions of years for nothing. And that's why his smirk at the end before he dies is so heartbreaking.

A smile suits a hero better.

[Usernameforforums]

He also doesn't consider killing us to be murder because he doesn't consider us people. I probably would feel the same way if I were killing wasps or something else beneath me in order to save my home.


A smile suits a hero better.

In his eyes, he is a hero and we are the villain. That’s what makes the story so compelling. Both are in the right and both are in the wrong, depending on who wins.

[Isilarya]

The resemblance is too uncanny to be coincidence. As our character was evidently either a friend or family to Hades and one of his 13 peers before being sundered, it's possible either he or the Ascians want us back as a paragon. He did say that if we had succeeded, we would "be as equals". I take that to mean he sought to achieve victory by turning the biggest proponent of Hydilyn into a disciple of Zodiark. The ascians have been trying to turn all of our shards from the beginning.

-Elidibus tried to turn Ardbert against us in Heavensward

-Emet Selch tried to turn us directly in Shadowbringers, before we failed to contain the light.

-Elidibus "saved" the boy pictured above (forget his name) and now more or less keeps him in his thrall. He too, like Ardbert, is one of our "shards".



Elidibus also even says in the ending that he intends to send the other warriors of light against us, like he had in heavensward.

Because not only does failing that plan spectacularly once before make his plan laughable. If it fails in the same manner of spectacular he will be dealing with us as equals, assuming we absorb the other souls. Because of unu we are technically the only non council ascian that even CAN be fully rejoined and if they cant deal with us at little over half, us at full rejoining sounds like a really bad idea for him.

[Yoshingo]

It's because Emet-Selch believes if we become whole once more, we'll see his point of view. He tells us this directly more than once. Presumably becoming whole would also return our memories of all the people we knew of that were lost in the initial Zodiark/Hydaelyn conflict so he might have been banking on that changing our minds.

Also is it actually confirmed that Unukalhai is actually one of the Warrior of Light's shards? I dont remember that from that questchain, but it's been a year or two.

I guess the fact that he also has the Echo is a hint but not necessarily a confirmation.

[ghostblade]

It's because Emet-Selch believes if we become whole once more, we'll see his point of view. He tells us this directly more than once. Presumably becoming whole would also return our memories of all the people we knew of that were lost in the initial Zodiark/Hydaelyn conflict so he might have been banking on that changing our minds.

Also is it actually confirmed that Unukalhai is actually one of the Warrior of Light's shards? I dont remember that from that questchain, but it's been a year or two.

I guess the fact that he also has the Echo is a hint but not necessarily a confirmation.

its not a real fact more a very strong theory.

[KrayZ33]

I never understood one thing, isn't the Ascian's plan already thwarted by the transformation of the 13th into a useless void that can't be rejoined with the Source?

[Yoshingo]

I never understood one thing, isn't the Ascian's plan already thwarted by the transformation of the 13th into a useless void that can't be rejoined with the Source?

I wouldn't be surprised if the Ascians weren't just saving that as the last shard to rejoin because it's already fallen. I'm sure because it's all void and they're followers of Zodiark, they could do something to force a rejoining.

[Yoshingo]

I think it's far likelier that he knew us rather than if we were just some random citizen. It makes it make a lot more sense with his incessant attempts to get us to join his side, and how completely and utterly sad and defeated he is when we refuse to stand with him.

His entire stated goal is to bring back his loved ones and friends (Yes the others would be brought back too but he puts an emphasis on people he knows), so I dont think that's too big of a jump to make.

[Yoshingo]

The reason I don't think it's just that he sees us as a tool is because of a bunch of little comments and reactions he has towards us throughout the leveling experience, including him smiling at us after we tell him we'll remember him.

He doesn't see us, sundered as we are, as "friends," or even beings that are actually alive.

There's a clear difference between seeing us as useful tools and being genuinely interested in trying to make us whole again. His agenda shifts from solely trying to use us to destroy the First and cause the rejoining to also hoping that it means we'll be rejoined and become whole again.

That distinction is the difference between we being a random person and him recognizing us as somebody he once knew. Again, the conversation with Hypothesis has him directly say that Hades saw "him" in us, clearly somebody he knew before the sundering.

[Wyrt]

Maybe I'm really off, but I think Emet-Selch wanted that ending he got.

It just lined up too perfectly with him countering out the light that was stored in the WoL. It was all a test to see if we were worthy of inherit the world. That's why he didn't just outright kill the Scions. He played the role of villain because he knew we would never trust an ascian.

I don't know, he didn't feel like an outright villain to me. He felt like someone who wanted the WoL to succeed and pass his judgment, to be worthy of the legacy of the ancients and to remember the world as it once was.

He's certainly not a good guy though, and I'm certain if the WoL failed to pass his test that he'd go through with the rejoining and summon Zodiark and all that. And I don't expect his fellow ascians to share his fondness for the WoL, who seems to have been his friend back in the days of the Ancients.

[Merie]

Maybe I'm really off, but I think Emet-Selch wanted that ending he got.

It just lined up too perfectly with him countering out the light that was stored in the WoL. It was all a test to see if we were worthy of inherit the world. That's why he didn't just outright kill the Scions. He played the role of villain because he knew we would never trust an ascian.

I don't know, he didn't feel like an outright villain to me. He felt like someone who wanted the WoL to succeed and pass his judgment, to be worthy of the legacy of the ancients and to remember the world as it once was.

He's certainly not a good guy though, and I'm certain if the WoL failed to pass his test that he'd go through with the rejoining and summon Zodiark and all that. And I don't expect his fellow ascians to share his fondness for the WoL, who seems to have been his friend back in the days of the Ancients.

I agree. Why else would he invite us to his fallen city? "So we can turn with some dignity" what the hell does that even mean? He clearly wanted us to see his home and his people in all its splendor so we would remember them and the heights they had achieved. And he showed us the last day as well so that we may savor the horror they all experienced as their world was destroyed too. His comments in phase 2 even sound like he's accepted his fate. I think this was the best he could do, because he was tired and wanted some peace. But he couldn't just throw in the towel outright, he had to make at least a half hearted attempt to kill us. Any less would have meant defying Zodiark, something he could not outright do because he had been enslaved by him as is what happens to all those tempered in a primal's thrall.

If he was really serious though, he could have killed the Scions while we were indisposed dealing with the light. And then there would be no stopping it. But he did not. I might be reaching. But I suspect that when he saw his former friend, the Warrior of Light, he saw an out. And in his depression, he took it. Perhaps when he lamented the chaos and death inflicted by the so-called inferior shards he considered for a moment his own hypocrisy in that he and his fellow ascians had succumbed to doing just that themselves. And that in that hypocrisy, they lost the right to dictate who deserves to hold the reins to the future. Maybe in the end he accepted fate and made for the exit. The smile at the end may merely have been his finding the release so he desperately craved.

[KrayZ33]

He invited us into his city because it is hinted that we (the player) are Ascian too. One of the council that summoned Zodiark even.
That's most likely also why he didn't want to kill us outright from the beginning.

I don't think there is any more meaning to it than that.

[malanior]

He invited us into his city because it is hinted that we (the player) are Ascian too. One of the council that summoned Zodiark even.
That's most likely also why he didn't want to kill us outright from the beginning.

I don't think there is any more meaning to it than that.

No, we summoned Hydaelyn

[gaymer77]

I love this game

DUUUUUUUUUDE why did you have to go and spoil this damn game for me?!?!?!

[Onikaroshi]

No, we summoned Hydaelyn

Everyone summoned Zodiark originally, it was only in later times did we break off to summon Hydaelyn