WoW players that switched to FFXIV, I need your opinions

[Katchii]

People actually did this? Damn. That’s like going from eating in a 5 star restaurant to McDonalds.

And what is your rationale for such a statement?

Without any reasoning behind such a ridiculous statement all you're doing is baiting.

Both games have loads of things to be praised and critiqued for.

[Dugna]

Yeah, its unfortunate.

This topic comes up literally daily in either NovNet or in Discord. New-ish players saying, "When do I get to HW? Does this get any better or should I just quit? These quests are so boring."

Or, "When do I get more than two buttons? It's been 30 levels of this."

The new player experience is pretty awful, but it always seems like veteran players refuse to acknowledge new player concerns. The returning player experience isn't always great either, but at least they kinda know what to expect each time.

its less about acknowledging concerns and more pointing out the reality of the game itself, it gets better later on and the quests of 30 and post 50 ARR quest are not actually that bad at all. I started in the beginning of SB for example and heard about the ARR questing and guess what? I just did it anyway enjoyed most of it for it was and then continued on to HW, like HW wouldn't have 1/4 the impact it did without the end of ARR and all its buildup.

and to the point of "when do I get more then two buttons?" that question is answered with later lvls, no matter what mmorpg or rpg in general lvling and getting new stuff in general is always end game, if you don't like this type why even bother with mmos?

All of these massive changes like making MSQ not required for anything or letting us skip expacs without paying anything are what made things like WoW for example just dull as shit to play as a new player, where you go from cata Garrosh being Warchief in one zone to Voljin warchief in another to slyvanas in another theres no investment theres no reason to care anything about the game you sub for a month and then drop it hard.

[Onikaroshi]

And what is your rationale for such a statement?

Without any reasoning behind such a ridiculous statement all you're doing is baiting.

Both games have loads of things to be praised and critiqued for.

Just people who refuse to see all the issues with WoW honestly and come into bait others.

[Katchii]

im just seeing how many people quit at 30 lol.

If my friends didnt push me to get past it, I wouldn't be having as much fun as I am

pre 30 and the pre SB level 50 MSQ I fucking hated

Rest has been fantastic

Yeah, its unfortunate.

This topic comes up literally daily in either NovNet or in Discord. New-ish players saying, "When do I get to HW? Does this get any better or should I just quit? These quests are so boring."

Or, "When do I get more than two buttons? It's been 30 levels of this."

The new player experience is pretty awful, but it always seems like veteran players refuse to acknowledge new player concerns. The returning player experience isn't always great either, but at least they kinda know what to expect each time.

Agreed. The early game gameplay is atrociously slow and if the story isn't practically gripping you by the balls and you're super invested in it, it's really difficult to be satisfied with the experience up until HW. There are a few more egregious parts:

1) Levels 1~10 where you're barely leaving the town with very little combat with a shit ton of fetch quests and introductory dialogue explaining basics
2) Lack of tutorial/ descriptions for pretty basic stuff, like how to reply to someone in /tell or how to navigate the map
3) Level ~30 where you're doing the ridiculous fetch quests just before Titan...and doing a dungeon to literally get some stinky cheese for a feast.
4) The level 50+ questing between ARR and HW. So.Many.Fetch Quests.

And I hate saying it as an option because it's a copout and a deterrent, but that's why they have story skip and level boost potions. You can skp the really bad parts of the game if you want if you're willing to pay. I just wish there was a way to get a streamlined version without having to pay extra.

[bloodwulf]

As someone who has played both, and quit both. Here is my perspective, lead with my experience.

WOW:
Experience
Played on and off since 2006 (currently not playing "retail" wow).
Reason Quit
Quit cause BFA was bad, and Ion is bad for the game. Too much RNG, story fragmentation. Classes don't really have any distinction anymore.
Things I liked
I enjoyed combat and dungeons and raid, and will pretty much always enjoy those.

FFXIV:
Experience
Played briefly prior to ARR. Played again after ARR for 2 months, played again recently right before newest expansion, hit level cap on 2 jobs.
Reason Quit
Quit cause the quest experience is not good if you are looking for something outside of forced conversations and "cinematics". Quit cause the slog to level cap is so long that i literally could not pay others (i tried to buy and pay for game time for 3 people) to go through it. I boosted to get past it. Combat is also way too slow. Hit cap on dragoon (most rigid inflexible rotation i have seen) and Bard (significant improvement over dragoon). Also forcing players to play through years old expacks to participate with current players is a TERRIBLE design.
Things I liked
Beautiful game, and the job system is awesome if it did not take so long to get to cap. Best dressing room game I have seen. Golden Saucer is fun. The random roleless dungeon was fun. Some of the raids were cool visually.

I liked both games, and both games have a place in the industry. Both games have significant weakness as well though. Ill still probably someday go back to both of them.

[Lahkesis]

I've played both and quit both at different times, for different reasons.

WOW:

Pretty much my first MMO and I have played it pretty consistently since patch 1.06 (Or whenever BWL was introduced). I've taken longer and longer breaks each expansion and BFA has pretty much done me in. Most of my friends still play, I met my husband playing this game (we've been married 7 years). I have a lot of love for the game in general, but it reminds me of YA Fantasy Book. Might be fun and fast to read but there aren't many layers there.

FF14:

The only other MMO that's stuck despite me playing and trying many. Has some clunky gameplay and can be maddening to follow the MSQ, but I care a lot about the characters, my character and the story as a result of my time spent with it. Usually, my main complaints are just how slow the battle system feels after coming from spammy WoW. Reminds me of a slow build fantasy series like Wheel of Time or Malazan. It feels plodding in places and then all of the sudden amazing stuff happens. It gets extra points from me because I love the job system and am a Final Fantasy fan in general. It speaks to me on a lot of nostalgia levels from years of console RPG love.

Right now, I'm making my way through Heavensward content in FF14 and loving every second of it. I'm fatigued at the moment because of BFA and its systems so I'm not going to play again until the game feels better. BFA has been a huge let down for me in almost every aspect of the game except for the environment design. Just a massive dropped ball in my opinion, which is not to say I think the game is garbage or not worthwhile, I think it's still doing its YA Fantasy thing very well, I'm just not in the mood for that feeling right now.

[Dugna]

This is what I mean, though. Newbies get dismissive replies like this and they're just gonna drop the game altogether. It's especially bad because most of what you're saying isn't even true.

No, most games don't make you go through so many levels pressing 1212121212 forever.

No, we're not talking about making MSQ not required or something drastic.

"Why even bother with MMOs?" Wow, that's super helpful.

- - - Updated - - -



Yep, it really, really could be improved for new players.

At the very least I find that acknowledging their complaints and their validity and assuring them that it gets better often motivates them a little. Usually though - especially in NovNet - it's just vets shouting them down and chasing them off with comments like, "It's a story based game! Don't like it? Then quit!" and it's not helpful at all.

except that most games do make you go through doing 1/2 buttons the whole time for many lvls, heck some mmos pride themselves on minimal buttons like GW2 where the differences come from weps of masteries and not the buttons or amount themselves. RPGs make you either upgrade spells that do the same things with limited slots in which you can use the spells etc.

Also yes plenty of newbies want the MSQ not required so they can skip it all get to SHB by mindlessly grinding and then getting to endgame without doing shit, its a very common thing and thats just not what FF14 is if you want that go play WoW or something else.

"why even bother with mmos" is very helpful MMOs unless they change the added thing to them don't change that much ever.

[Rogalicus]

except that most games do make you go through doing 1/2 buttons the whole time for many lvls, heck some mmos pride themselves on minimal buttons like GW2 where the differences come from weps of masteries and not the buttons or amount themselves

The minimal amount of buttons in GW2 is 16 or so (2 weapons x 5 + 5 utilities + class skill), so that's serious overexaggeration.

Also yes plenty of newbies want the MSQ not required so they can skip it all get to SHB by mindlessly grinding and then getting to endgame without doing shit, its a very common thing and thats just not what FF14 is if you want that go play WoW or something else.

You think that teleporting left and right takes some serious effort other than testing your patience?

[Dugna]

The minimal amount of buttons in GW2 is 16 or so (2 weapons x 5 + 5 utilities + class skill), so that's serious overexaggeration.


You think that teleporting left and right takes some serious effort other than testing your patience?

takes more effort then spamming the current lvl dungeon and running it mindless while watching something on another screen, and GW again bases itself on minimal buttons, having the basic 9 buttons is soo very little for a mmo its insane.

Or heck spamming palace of the dead, if something like palace of the dead existed in WoW getting full 120s across the board would be done in under a week for many people and thats casually.

[Shaetha]

I see the more buttons = more interesting crowd is still around. FFXIV's systems are clunky. Animation lock abounds, especially on casters, and most jobs are just push buttons in order. Push buttons in order is never interesting no matter how many buttons there are. Crafting and gathering are way more interesting, but you have to get through the bad combat to do it.

Most jobs play terribly before max level because they're designed around max level only. Instead of just scaling your stats down when you get crammed in a low level dungeon, they make you use whatever 2 buttons you have at that level and rearrange your bars to do it. It's incredibly annoying, but the devs made dungeons required to progress(as in you cannot go to the next zone any way for any reason,) and the game would die fast if they didn't heavily incentivize players to redo it, so people muddle through and claim it's some kind of great game design for some arcane reason. Oh, and at max level, I hope you enjoy doing the same 4 bosses for 3 months, because that's all the game has for you.

The systems design is also awful. That's a legacy cost of previous monumental failures, but that doesn't make the way the game runs any less bad. There are probably a hundred UI things that are just annoying for no reason. Like not being able to rearrange your inventory with a vendor open, and not being able to switch the slots rings are equipped to without unequipping one.

The gearing is mostly less interesting than WoW. The biggest choice you have to make is "hit that breakpoint, then meld something else"

I enjoy going back to FFXIV every so often, but the fighting parts of the game are a chore to be done before you can get to the only interesting parts of the game, which are crafting and gathering. If you're looking for anything other than just more WoW(but messier) besides that, you're going to be disappointed.

[Rogalicus]

takes more effort then spamming the current lvl dungeon and running it mindless while watching something on another screen

Or heck spamming palace of the dead, if something like palace of the dead existed in WoW getting full 120s across the board would be done in under a week for many people and thats casually.

Spamming current level dungeon at least teaches your rotation, what does spamming LMB in custscenes teach you in game?

having the basic 9 buttons is soo very little for a mmo its insane

GW2 is designed not to clutter your screen with buttons, as elementalist, for example, you have 29 skills at any time and can have even more by using conjured weapon as your utility. Though your basic mistake is confusing amount of buttons with depth, GW1 with one customizable hotbar with 8 buttons has way more depth than any FFXIV class.

[Wrecktangle]

and to the point of "when do I get more then two buttons?" that question is answered with later lvls, no matter what mmorpg or rpg in general lvling and getting new stuff in general is always end game, if you don't like this type why even bother with mmos?

Actually quite a few front load your skills and let later levels change or empower them. A good example is modern WoW and Blade and Soul. In Blade and Soul by level 24 you generally have your whole kit and later abilities are modified or improved or allow different rotations/procs or you gain new utility, etc.

sub for a month and then drop it hard.

This is quite literally some peoples exact behavior in FF14. Not only that, it's heavily encouraged by Yoshi.

takes more effort then spamming the current lvl dungeon and running it mindless while watching something on another screen

This is also the preferred method of leveling alternative jobs in FF14. I mean, were you not around for the whole SCH meme?

I'm just confused why you're bashing other games for things that FF14 also does, in some cases worse. It makes you look like you're incapable of arguing from a position of logic and reason and instead are heavily relying on bias and emotion.

Spamming current level dungeon at least teaches your rotation, what does spamming LMB in custscenes teach you in game?

You don't have cutscenes on auto scroll? Omg if I had to click I'd lose my mind.

[Rogalicus]

You don't have cutscenes on auto scroll? Omg if I had to click I'd lose my mind.

Yeah, the pain of not learning English as my first language, I constantly need to stop in cutscenes with Urianger or anything related to Limsa Lominsa ("talk like a pirate, yarr") to understand what the hell is the text about. At least it got somewhat better after ARR, Koji probably spends all his time googling memes for FATE names instead of ruining translation.

[Itori]

I left wow for ffxiv back when 2.0 was in beta, the first 15min in the beta i already knew i was quitting WoW it had that traditional mmo feel, it was slow starting off, like mind numbingly slow but that helped when learning classes and rotations.

The story makes you feel like your character makes an impact on the world, the people you meet and the things you do are mentioned, while in WoW youre just there to make lore characters better, you are briefly mentioned but the heroes like jaina, thrall, and anduin get all the credit for you killing an old gof or stopping a tyranical warchief.

I think healing in FFXIV is the best healing experience ive had, i mained sch from 2.0 up until shadowbringers and i may end up doing it again if dancer doesnt work out, healing feels great, im not just spamming aoe heals, i have to learn the fights and know when tank busters and group wide oh shit moments happen and act accordingly.

Ive came back to WoW maybe 3 times and each time its to try out the new content hoping things have improved but everytime its been a no.

[Katchii]

This is quite literally some peoples exact behavior in FF14. Not only that, it's heavily encouraged by Yoshi.

He has commented that he'd rather people unsub and do other things rather than feel chained to this game and end up disliking it. The comment I've seen more is that he EXPECTS people to unsub at certain points, and that's how the business model is designed and how they do their budgets.

You don't have cutscenes on auto scroll? Omg if I had to click I'd lose my mind.

I don't. You can click faster than they talk if you're trying to skip and it's really not THAT bad, plus it means the cutscene can be "paused" by simply not clicking to advance. Makes for good snack/drink/potty/ wife aggro breaks.

[threads]

BFA: can't decide on a main because every class is boring and shitty version of previous xpacs.

Shadowbringers: can't decide a main because everything I level is too fun to choose just 1

[Dugna]

Spamming current level dungeon at least teaches your rotation, what does spamming LMB in custscenes teach you in game?


GW2 is designed not to clutter your screen with buttons, as elementalist, for example, you have 29 skills at any time and can have even more by using conjured weapon as your utility. Though your basic mistake is confusing amount of buttons with depth, GW1 with one customizable hotbar with 8 buttons has way more depth than any FFXIV class.

the depth of a 8 buttons with a meta for each situation so basically you never actually have depth you have a talent tree where you swap the buttons. Also when did I state it teaches you more about your class? I said it takes more effort meaning you appreciate the rest more.

Actually quite a few front load your skills and let later levels change or empower them. A good example is modern WoW and Blade and Soul. In Blade and Soul by level 24 you generally have your whole kit and later abilities are modified or improved or allow different rotations/procs or you gain new utility, etc.



This is quite literally some peoples exact behavior in FF14. Not only that, it's heavily encouraged by Yoshi.



This is also the preferred method of leveling alternative jobs in FF14. I mean, were you not around for the whole SCH meme?

I'm just confused why you're bashing other games for things that FF14 also does, in some cases worse. It makes you look like you're incapable of arguing from a position of logic and reason and instead are heavily relying on bias and emotion.



You don't have cutscenes on auto scroll? Omg if I had to click I'd lose my mind.

Thats not your full toolkit if the ability either radically change or change enough to mess with the order of the rotation.

the quote for Yoshi about him being alright with people not being constantly subbed regards to the behavior of people finishing current content after being caught up, not subbing for a month when you start, buying all skips and then rushing to end game being bored outta your mind cause you skipped 99% of the games content and then bitching the game sucks. That stuff was encouraged more and more for WoW which is why we have the current mess of difficulties and other statistical problems.

preferred method of lvling alt jobs I'm familiar with, also I'm not bashing other games I'm pointing out that the comment of "when do we get more buttons?" is a complaint of basically all mmorpgs in some form for early lvls and is just a thing of the genre.

and last thing I'd like to hear is about arguing positions of logic and reason from you on any game considering you think toxicity, "just isn't a big deal in WoW as yall make it out to be" , like I said before you have a weird hate boner for FF14 where every other thing is you arguing about how WoW isn't all that bad and FF14 is just soo much worse.

[Rogalicus]

the depth of a 8 buttons with a meta for each situation so basically you never actually have depth you have a talent tree where you swap the buttons.

1. There's never one situation and you can't swap skills out of towns
2. It still easily beats having built-in meta with heavily scripted rotation and almost no CC, almost no support abilities, almost no interesting singergies

[Wrecktangle]

I don't. You can click faster than they talk if you're trying to skip and it's really not THAT bad, plus it means the cutscene can be "paused" by simply not clicking to advance. Makes for good snack/drink/potty/ wife aggro breaks.

I just press space and it pauses it, but didn't know it was faster if you leave it manual and spam click, but I do watch cutscenes and don't skip

Thats not your full toolkit if the ability either radically change or change enough to mess with the order of the rotation.

You're being a brat. You knew I proved your wrong by citing 2 examples and instead of researching or refuting them with actual insight or counterpoints, you merely nitpick something. It is your full kit. Even if it changes or improved or small things are tweaked/added it's still a significant departure from how FF14 does it. Enough so to draw a differentiation between the two methodologies.

the quote for Yoshi about him being alright with people not being constantly subbed regards to the behavior of people finishing current content after being caught up, not subbing for a month when you start, buying all skips and then rushing to end game being bored outta your mind cause you skipped 99% of the games content and then bitching the game sucks.

What? All I wanted to do here was demonstrate that people sub for a month and burn through content and then take 2 years off and do it all over again. I know firsthand NUMEROUS players who do this. They play the beginning of the expac, and then 2 weeks before the next one. It's the same example of people in WoW.

preferred method of lvling alt jobs I'm familiar with, also I'm not bashing other games I'm pointing out that the comment of "when do we get more buttons?" is a complaint of basically all mmorpgs in some form for early lvls and is just a thing of the genre.

Then why did you specifically state "takes more effort then spamming the current lvl dungeon and running it mindless while watching something on another screen" as a detriment against WoW without acknowledging that it's also one in FF14. You're being hypocritical.

and last thing I'd like to hear is about arguing positions of logic and reason from you on any game considering you think toxicity, "just isn't a big deal in WoW as yall make it out to be" , like I said before you have a weird hate boner for FF14 where every other thing is you arguing about how WoW isn't all that bad and FF14 is just soo much worse.

Can you do me 2 favors:

1) Can you link to ANY example of me saying that, complete with context.

2) I never said FF14 is worse or WoW is better? Can you link to any example of me saying either of those things?

I know first hand (and many regulars here do as well) that I am critical of all games. You don't need to agree with my criticisms, but you CANNOT with a straight face argue that I'm biased or irrational in any of my discussions. Can we say the same for you?

[Dugna]

I just press space and it pauses it, but didn't know it was faster if you leave it manual and spam click, but I do watch cutscenes and don't skip



You're being a brat. You knew I proved your wrong by citing 2 examples and instead of researching or refuting them with actual insight or counterpoints, you merely nitpick something. It is your full kit. Even if it changes or improved or small things are tweaked/added it's still a significant departure from how FF14 does it. Enough so to draw a differentiation between the two methodologies.



What? All I wanted to do here was demonstrate that people sub for a month and burn through content and then take 2 years off and do it all over again. I know firsthand NUMEROUS players who do this. They play the beginning of the expac, and then 2 weeks before the next one. It's the same example of people in WoW.



Then why did you specifically state "takes more effort then spamming the current lvl dungeon and running it mindless while watching something on another screen" as a detriment against WoW without acknowledging that it's also one in FF14. You're being hypocritical.



Can you do me 2 favors:

1) Can you link to ANY example of me saying that, complete with context.

2) I never said FF14 is worse or WoW is better? Can you link to any example of me saying either of those things?

I know first hand (and many regulars here do as well) that I am critical of all games. You don't need to agree with my criticisms, but you CANNOT with a straight face argue that I'm biased or irrational in any of my discussions. Can we say the same for you?

don't have to cite a specific post but the whole topic of toxicity in FF14 vs WoW for you is "but my opinion is that toxcitiy is worse in FF14 then WoW because I barely pug" when plenty of people have proven you wrong over and over and over. Again you have a hateboner for FF14 and seem to only play it so you can argue with people online.

and no getting the base abilities and then having them transform is not your full toolkit, its like saying a toolkit on one size wrench one size screwdriver and hammer compares to a full toolkit of various sizes of all tools which is what end game is for most mmos.

and third since you seem to like to turn shit around like you didn't say it, you mentioned Yoshi specifically. Yoshi encourages people to not be tied down to the game for a full patch cycle cause of grind, he never said that about the full expac. Good for your friends who start the expac and then quit till the almost the next one, they're not the ones Yoshi was talking about at all.

fourth Going through the MSQ and lvling that does take more effort then spamming current lvl dungeon, I know that because I've lvld every job that way from lvl 1 its brainless and faster then doing the MSQ unless again you skip 100% of the cutscenes.