Any room left for people where everything is not about speed.

[Tesshin20]

If you recruit a healer that has only played for 2 days, and then attempt to run a dungeon as if they're a veteran, that is your problem. There are loads of ways to filter people out. That statement does nothing to defend your point and I have no idea why you're even bringing it up?

How do you filter out healers who only played for 2 days in the LFG tool?

[Nnyco]

Efficiency to me is killing a pack with minimum damage taken and minimum amount of healer mana spent.

Turns out you take no damage and spend no mana when you skip that hard pack.

[Tesshin20]

efficiency = speed.
and no, i dont run ahead of the tank, as i expect the tank to know the most efficient routes (or have at least Method Dungeon Tools) and pulls (obv above m+20 chainpull into bosses is standard), aka strategies... <+15 there is rarely need for CC.
time to shine /hf classic.

do not misinterpret me, ur personal playstyle is fine (for u and anyone who likes relaxed, but that is not efficient), but ur reasoning is wrong. (/Edit) also i dont bitch about relaxed pugs, did some m+11-14 this week for practice on Beguiling, the worst took 1h, cuz leader choose a 415 disc heal (completely overwhelmed), 67 (grp) deaths i "persisted" until completion.

/thread

Speed is only the most efficient way to do dungeon if you want as many end rewards from dungeons in a shortest time possible, and the speed runs are successful. You are removing the risk factor of doing anything with speed. Pulling extra packs and trying to do skips that may fail can sometimes leave to wipes.

So no, efficiency is not always speed.

- - - Updated - - -

Turns out you take no damage and spend no mana when you skip that hard pack.

And what if the skip fails. Then the most efficient way was to perhaps pull it the normal way?

- - - Updated - - -

"Gogogogogogogogo!" is the sole reason I stopped running dungeons. I'm tired of people who have to finish everything as inhumanly fast as possible.

To hell with that. I want to enjoy the run.

I agree with you But I still keep doing them.

[oplawlz]

12M subs. About 6.5-7M were Chinese accounts that were paying a fraction of that. 1-1.5M is unverified and pure speculation based on false/debunked info.

12m was western sub based - chinese accounts weren't counted because they were under whatever company was doing wow over there - netease I think? Regardless of the actual numbers there is no denying that far less people are playing retail wow now than previously.

[kamuimac]

I also don't like retail WoW because of that. M+ have been designed to be an e-sport. So doing dungeons is all about speed now.

Blame Blizzard and their obsession about making games/content that are e-sportable.

wont lie - i do miss the old school way of having hard slow dungeons.

part of which i completly ignore mythic + because cba with the "rush mentality"

seems anti rpg to me.

[Naramag]

I am with op. I hate rushing and skipping mobs. I wish every skipped mob in the instance would make the boss stronger, without any benefits. Skip too much, get a beating.

[digichi]

It is true that blizzard cannot follow all playstyles, as right now m+ is caters to individuals who enjoyed running dungeons as quick as possible or players who enjoy challenging themselves/climbing a rank. But there is an audience out there who enjoyed the tough dungeon without the timer, and if blizz could cater to a mode like that it would be enjoyable.

[krl]

I disagree. Having played since the beginning, in my experience, people "taking it slow" are in fact semi-afk and not focusing on the dungeon. Additionally, discussing each pull in basic situations is just lack of preparation.

The timer in LFG is a blessing, because I don't have to wait for smokes each boss, emergency ice cream breaks or whatever auction is monitored on the second screen.

The room OP needs is a community with the same views on the game, but LFG is not for him and he shouldn't bother people in it with micro breaks.

[Garymorilix]

A lot of assumptions in your post. You assume manipulation where its most likely just ignorance on my part.

It means what I often get into groups where the mindset is to avoid as much of what I see as gameplay. Gameplay in the sense of dealing with the mechanic of the adds and the boss in exchange for superior gear or cheesy mechanics. Of course if you vastly overpower something, it gives more margin for error. But I do not like that people willingly ignore mechanics. It promotes bad gameplay and the result longterm is people who in turn play badly.

Our guild have tried many players in our mythic raids as trails who have very little experience in raids, but for a long time had 2000+ raidoer.io rating in mythic+. Almost all cases they are too often wiping the raid because they simply ignore mechanics.

Skipping to me is to do a high risk cheesy manouver by either sneaking past something or using stealth. One of the biggest reason I dislike it is that in most cases it leads to disaster in pugs. There is often some reason that stealth breaks for some people, or that someone lags a bit while sneaking past a pack and manage to pull etc.

You can believe anything you like for what I care. It has no impact on me what so ever

Let's get the obvious out of the way: High level M+ and Mythic raiding require different mindsets. Being 2k+ does not mean that you know how to deal with Mythic raids, and I don't know why you would assume so. Especially when your situation is the exact reverse of this. Your less rushy Mythic raid experience doesn't translate to 5-man rushing strategies.

Now with that out, why are we even talking about high M+ and 2k+ players? Didn't you say you do keys with your guildies?

You failed to convince me that there are actually people skipping in normal/hc/m0. Once in year maybe, but for this to be a constant, the average player's skill should be very high (to the point where LFR, Normal raids and anything below +10 shouldn't even exist). So I call bs.

"Mindset is to avoid as much as you can" Exactly, that's what's called efficiency. If it takes more time to kill them than to avoid them, what do you think you should do?
Again, do you clear every single trash pack in Motherlode? Do you know why you don't?

In Mythic raiding it's important to avoid mechanics, because that's the fight. But do you honestly think people should do mechanics in normal/hc/m0 as if they were in +17 or something? Where healer mana is infinite and it doesn't matter whether you get hit or not?
People who want to be better will be better and do harder content. Those people will avoid stuff. Why do you expect low-levels or extreme casuals to be mythic raiders?

Why do you care it creates disaster in pugs? You allegedly don't pug keystones.
5-mans are designed with skipping in mind. That's part of the strategy btw, unless you wanna get like 130%+ in a run. But you should know that as a 'top 200 mythic raider'.

Your arguments make no sense. You said you didn't pug at all (just non-keystone stuff) and now you argue like you do.

[klaps_05]

Because TIME is a finite resource - if you can do any activity faster, you would as it allows you to do it more often, i.e. consume more content. I highly doubt anyone gets kicked for being a bit slow as people are generally patient, but you will get kicked for being extremely slow or barely pulling anything especially as a tank.

Adapt to survive - the meta of the game has changed from doing single CCs to managing packs by rotating through CDs (tank, heal, dps, control). The reason you CCd back in the day was because you didnt have the tools (short CDs, control) to handle the packs - nowadays everything is 1-3 min CDs or even shorter, which means you can play faster and more efficiently.

As a tank, if you arent in danger during big pulls, you aren't doing it right.

[Samuraijake]

things like this is what has created tunnel vision players>> whom find their way into raids/guilds>>> and die to mechanics later. Players/human beings arent pressured to use their brains anymore and all you have left is mush.

this also leads to say pug groups where everyone is afraid to talk /communicate about fights and hope they have a raid leader that tells them everything to do and when. Also why groups fall apart after burning the first 4 tunnel vision bosses.. and then quickly wipe-disband on a boss that requires them to do things n stuff.. n junk.. and w/e

there's a fight right now in final fantasy 14 called "Innocence" that has dps mainly handling mechanics that one-shot them... and no suprise i see ppl dying so much from that rushing/tunnel mentality

[Nnyco]

And what if the skip fails. Then the most efficient way was to perhaps pull it the normal way?

You also can fail fighting it so thats really not an argument.

[Freighter]

12m was western sub based - chinese accounts weren't counted because they were under whatever company was doing wow over there - netease I think? Regardless of the actual numbers there is no denying that far less people are playing retail wow now than previously.

https://www.ign.com/articles/2010/10...on-subscribers

The current total subscriber base of the popular World of Warcraft massively multiplayer online role-playing game has now exceeded 12 million players, developer Blizzard announced today. The milestone was reached after the recent launch of the game's second expansion, Wrath of the Lich King, in China.

[durenas]

I like doing dungeons or any team oriented play. And over the years the way people play has changed so much while I remained the same since 2005.

I play for strategy. I keeps me enganged with the content. I like to approach packs of mobs figuring out the best way to kill it in a way that is efficient. Having mobs that do different abilities makes it interesting.

Well. All the above you can throw out the window when I do the regular pug groups. Everything is abour rushing, skipping and in general avoid as much of the content as possible in the fastest amount of time.

Tanking for me is almost impossible. Even if I leap into a pack and we aoe it down and I pull next pack when its dead its still way too slow for some people.

For someone that enjoys vanilla and tbc style with ccing specific mobs and everyone nuking the same targer, aoeing everything and rushing makes it experience very dull for me. Trying to tank I find it very annoying that some dps in the group always runs ahead pull new packs while figthting a pack then blames me for dying and votekick me.

I know my way of playing is a minority so I always just accept it and follow the stream. But I don't find it enganging and I would hope it would change when mythic plus was released. But putting a timer on it makes it worse.

Skipping packs for me is the same as skipping parts of a movie. Makes no sense to me. When people want to pull 3 packs and just AOE everything they make the dungeon irrelevant. Since you avoid any strategy the mobs could be named Target 1, Target 2 etc and all just have a basic attack. No one would even notice. I think its very sad.

The question is whats your opinion on the matter, is there a community for us who likes to do things "properly"? , am I getting too old for anything in this game thats not singleplayer? (I am 36).

I can relate. It's a big reason why I am not motivated to do dungeons or raid. I do the solo content and that's good enough for me. I'll do each raid/dungeon once or twice, but that's it.

[Chemii]

I like to approach packs of mobs figuring out the best way to kill it in a way that is efficient.

Followed by:

Everything is about rushing, skipping and in general avoid as much of the content as possible in the fastest amount of time.

hmmmmmm.

[durenas]

Followed by:



hmmmmmm.

There's no denying that aoeing everything down is the most efficient way to do a dungeon. But it doesn't have to be that way. I would prefer more encounters where that is actively punished.

[Glarolas]

I mean while you are reading the dungeon journal and memorizing abilities on pointless mobs the rest of the world is cleaving them down. Get with the times.

[SirBeef]

No all 12m we both western and eastern accounts that had paid time left their accounts. Eastern paid by the minute and if 1 min was left they were counted as an active sub for that month. You are are right that there are less playing than then but are wrong on the 12M being all western accounts. That was never the case.

[Powerogue]

Mythic+ adds back in the difficulty, but due to the timer every group I've been in somehow thinks it's better to still rush and die repeatedly then to dare, DARE to use a CC or two to break up the trash pack that keeps killing us.

We'd have to...pull them to us? Using OBSTACLES and stuff? Black magic of the highest order!

[CrawlFromThePit]

I like doing dungeons or any team oriented play. And over the years the way people play has changed so much while I remained the same since 2005.

I play for strategy. I keeps me enganged with the content. I like to approach packs of mobs figuring out the best way to kill it in a way that is efficient. Having mobs that do different abilities makes it interesting.

Well. All the above you can throw out the window when I do the regular pug groups. Everything is abour rushing, skipping and in general avoid as much of the content as possible in the fastest amount of time.

Tanking for me is almost impossible. Even if I leap into a pack and we aoe it down and I pull next pack when its dead its still way too slow for some people.

For someone that enjoys vanilla and tbc style with ccing specific mobs and everyone nuking the same targer, aoeing everything and rushing makes it experience very dull for me. Trying to tank I find it very annoying that some dps in the group always runs ahead pull new packs while figthting a pack then blames me for dying and votekick me.

I know my way of playing is a minority so I always just accept it and follow the stream. But I don't find it enganging and I would hope it would change when mythic plus was released. But putting a timer on it makes it worse.

Skipping packs for me is the same as skipping parts of a movie. Makes no sense to me. When people want to pull 3 packs and just AOE everything they make the dungeon irrelevant. Since you avoid any strategy the mobs could be named Target 1, Target 2 etc and all just have a basic attack. No one would even notice. I think its very sad.

The question is whats your opinion on the matter, is there a community for us who likes to do things "properly"? , am I getting too old for anything in this game thats not singleplayer? (I am 36).

To be completely honest, I ran dungeons in vanilla and TBC exactly how I run them now. The whole point is to be efficient in finishing it. That means CC will be used IF NECESSARY not just because it's there in your bar and you can use it to double the time it takes to clear a pack. If you can handle 2 or 3 packs at once then you should grab as much because why have 3 seperate fights when it could be just one? That's being inefficient. Just like everything in life, why do it slow when it can be done fast? The concept of "I like taking my time" is only a perspective, people who run dungeons fast are also "taking their time" they just have a different perspective of what their time is.

For me, doing a dungeon fast means I have more time after to do other stuff. I find no pleasure in making things slower than what they could be and never have, even in vanilla. By that I don't mean dungeons must be completed in a specific amount of time to feel efficient, it depends on the difficulty. If we need CC to be efficient because otherwise we would just wipe, therefore making it slower, then so be it, let's CC. If mobs don't do much dmg then let's get more so we can speed this up, why have 3 slow fights? It makes no sense.

All of this is ENTIRELY caused by the design of the game. Players didn't suddenly decide they want to run things fast, everybody always wanted to clear dungeons faster rather than slower, what's the point of being slow? The difference is our classes are all becoming gods while mobs barely do anything more than they did 15 years ago.

I don't think skipping packs is the same as skipping a part of the movie, packs in dungeons don't provide anything special like a movie scene would. You're not more entertained when you kill more packs then if you kill less, and keep in mind, this is IN A RUN. Once you're done with a run you're gonna go kill other stuff in a quest or another dungeon, in the end, all we do is pull shit, fight and loot, that's the gameplay loop of this game. So it doesn't matter at all if you skip packs in a dungeons because at the end of the day all you do is pull mobs and fight them. Instead of seeing skipped pack as "missing content" you should see all packs as different options, do you want to pull this pack that prevents you from going further or do you want to pull this other pack that serves no purpose in the game because it's not even in your way?