Blood elves and Zin'Azshari

[matrix123mko]

I'm not sure why you'd expect a night elf place to feel blood elven or even want it to... I mean blood elves have happlily eclipsed and out shone night elves from tbc, and for a moment in Legion with Suramar it appeared night elves finally shone for a moment, but they had to make those night elves have the blood elves join in and later ally with them.

Which made much sense as they have many similarities.

Demon hunters, they also made blood elves a part off, - they wouldn't even give the alliance night elves the night elf pre-sundering lore, - so blood elves take the naga, the demon hunters, the night elf pre-sundering stuff.

You know. Blood elves deserve their pre-sundering stuff. They are descendants of Highborne, after all.

As for demon hunters, they were pariahs in night elf society.

And you still want more blood elves? I mean they have been well represented every expansion, always had a great showing, and presented as by far the better elf, sharing or taking over a lot of the better night elven portions

They aren't well represented. They always live in shadow of orcs and trolls. They are as neglected as the night elves. Their mages are often shown as inferior to human, their warlocks are nonexistent, their hunters serve just as ranged troops for orc commanders, their arcane technology is replaced by mogu constructs. Only paladins are at the front but they also are homogenised to look like human ones.

Also, blood elves haven't got any HD building since BC, while night elves got their Val'sharah and Darkshore.

I think blizzard don't have to make a night elven place about blood elves.

But it is blood elven place. Sunstriders and other Thalassians hail from Zin'azshari.

[Beloren]

@matrix123mko @Rhlor Also remember Thalyssra is impressed by Silvermoon, she compliments the fair city. And while Suramar is much better designed than Suramar currently, you just know this is not the updated Silvermoon, and she is probably visiting the updated Silvermoon, which she finds amazing, which is high praise, and makes you think the acutal Silvermoon is much more magnificent than in game is showing.

[matrix123mko]

I know right.. when I see the art work, and the music scores they do for the elves, i'm really impressed, it was lovely.. most fantasy stay away from visually portyraing the elves, just describe them as amazingly beautiful, few bother to try and show this and even fewer actually impress, Warcraft did.

And it perplexes me how they can do the style so good and beautiful and the music, and even have such world building back ground story for them, yet fail sometimes so badly on the execution of something authenticduring wow, that made WC3 look like an amazing piece of story telling and lore. Almost like the world builders became story writers, and the two aren't necessarily the same, .. the quality just falling quite short to the high standard art and music seem to have. But saying that, sometimes it's quite good.

They have Warhammer problem. Good universe but weird ideas to develop story.

And that the alliance had ankoan.. it was just weird, I expected to see night elven flightmasters in a city i'm sure some of them remember, but the Ankoan take over.

There is one hidden elf flightmaster.

The most ridiculous thing was that knife from Mad MArvis' box, I on my night elf uncover, and it feels so ridiculous that my night elf or nightborne would have to go seek the Ankoan/kelfin to know whatever this is.. i'm like for real.. my character should be telling them what it is, not the other way around.

I love the quests where NPC says "I know you don't know anything about arcane magic but this is very simple" for my archmage.

[ravenmoon]

Which made much sense as they have many similarities.

You know. Blood elves deserve their pre-sundering stuff. They are descendants of Highborne, after all.

As for demon hunters, they were pariahs in night elf society.

They aren't well represented. They always live in shadow of orcs and trolls. They are as neglected as the night elves. Their mages are often shown as inferior to human, their warlocks are nonexistent, their hunters serve just as ranged troops for orc commanders, their arcane technology is replaced by mogu constructs. Only paladins are at the front but they also are homogenised to look like human ones.

Also, blood elves haven't got any HD building since BC, while night elves got their Val'sharah and Darkshore.

But it is blood elven place. Sunstriders and other Thalassians hail from Zin'azshari.

You're right .. but I was merely pointing out that blood elves have had enough in comparison, blood elves are there as kaldorei , he just shouldn't expect blodoe lven themes, because usch idoesn't exist yet, it's all kaldorei at this point.. but you are right all the way. Night elves also got Suramar, Zin'Azshari, Azsuna, that's all night elven stuff, (don't forget the nightborne are a night elven group, and the city is night elven and Silvermoon hasn't been updated.

[matrix123mko]

@matrix123mko @Rhlor Also remember Thalyssra is impressed by Silvermoon, she compliments the fair city. And while Suramar is much better designed than Suramar currently, you just know this is not the updated Silvermoon, and she is probably visiting the updated Silvermoon, which she finds amazing, which is high praise, and makes you think the acutal Silvermoon is much more magnificent than in game is showing.

Yes, of course. Just look at screenshot from Chronicle. I think I have to photoshop Suramar into red and gold. That would be glorious. I really hope for HD Silvermoon.

[ravenmoon]

@matrix123mko @Rhlor Also remember Thalyssra is impressed by Silvermoon, she compliments the fair city. And while Suramar is much better designed than Suramar currently, you just know this is not the updated Silvermoon, and she is probably visiting the updated Silvermoon, which she finds amazing, which is high praise, and makes you think the acutal Silvermoon is much more magnificent than in game is showing.

Yeh, but Thalyssra is probably saying that because she has only seen one city for the last 10k years, and is quite familiar with the pre-sundering kaldorei cities, and none of the other races cities are impressive, so when she gets to silvermoon, it really is something new, as seen by it's different architecture, that is still beautiful.

I don't doubt it is grand, but remember the kaldorei cities and civilziaiton are unparalled by anything today, this includes Silvemroon and Dalaran, so to a neutral observer, Suramar would be the more impressive by some measure, but that doesn't mean Silvermoon isn't amazing, and even if Thalsysra thinks so, it doesn't mean she thinks its prettier and nicer than Suramar.

[Kemsa]

Love it... everytime that chorus start, i tried to imagine every non hostile npc just singing looking at the Eternal Palace.... and Poen doesnt HELP STOP TELLING ME THAT YOU HELPED A LITTLE GIRL GOD DAMN IT.

A really well done zone, BUT i hated it was a tiny zone instead of a full fledge 3 tiles zone. But well, we cant have everything.

[MikeBogina]

Haven't seen it yet, but I would assume since the parts of the city that were still in tact where all the Highborne areas of the city... unless the Demons destroying most of the city is retconned now, that the Highbornes who actually lived in that city who then went and built Quel'thalas, would use the same type of architect for the most part. The city should feel similar to Suramar and Silvermoon, more than it would Darnassus which is a city recently built by a bunch of tree hugging hippies who wouldn't be using the same type of architect or be arcane themed.

But whatever new designs the Blood Elves have made since then, obviously wouldn't exist in the remains of the city from 10000 years ago.

[ravenmoon]

Haven't seen it yet, but I would assume since the parts of the city that were still in tact where all the Highborne areas of the city... unless the Demons destroying most of the city is retconned now, that the Highbornes who actually lived in that city who then went and built Quel'thalas, would use the same type of architect for the most part. The city should feel similar to Suramar and Silvermoon, more than it would Darnassus which is a city recently built by a bunch of tree hugging hippies who wouldn't be using the same type of architect or be arcane themed.

But whatever new designs the Blood Elves have made since then, obviously wouldn't exist in the remains of the city from 10000 years ago.

Technically it shouldn't feel similar to Silvermoon. Suramar, yes, not SIlvermoon. As @Aucald said, there would be some similarities carried over, but you want Silvermoon to be different, the high elves are not a continuation of the highborne, they are a new type of elf and noble elf, a sect of highborne who go through extraordinary circumstances, fighting for the resistance going through the Long vigil -- they are not like the shen'drlaar and nightborne highborne, they are a different breed - they hated the decadence and recklessness of the highborne they were a part off, the destruction of the legion pained them too, and they wanted to make amends. Do magic responsibly, make it work in the right way.


What they form is new as they divorce much of their former night elf nature and culture. Their new magical culture is different. They are still elves, so you will still have love of orestry (hence why they settle in quel'thalas), love of magic (remember the long vigil night leves don't lose their love of magic, they have to ban arcane magic to pretn the legion, you can bet they still love it , which is why the ban I is so severe and tough, and then they did nature magic). The high elves build a city, it would have similar influences oorm before, they won't go out of their way to redefine architecture, or arcane magic, or shooting the bow.
Climbing a tree is still climbing a tree (even if you've switched from night to day.

Drinking, eating, writing, is still what it is
knowledge accrued, whether arcane, forestry or life wisdom is still that


This is what people don't get, there would be similarities, and the knowledge they continued , the arcnae knowledge won't change, anymore than how to climb trees or build, but a lot would change, and you would see this reflected in the new colour themes, the focus, and changes in architecture.

p.s. did the demons destroy most of zin'Azshari? I thought they didn't touch that, it was every toher night elf city they destroyed.. people sometimes think the sundering destroyed the night elf empire, no, it didn't, it was the demons the queen unleashed that went through eveyr city, the hyjal survivors thought every city lost, (even though Surmaar and Eldre'thalas survived, blizz need to write how Eldre'thalas was missed,but then classic tells us the night elves hadn't been to that part of Feralas since before the sundering.. So they had been in isolation in northern Kalimdor, probably the druids going as far as Stonetalon (only the dream gate in northern Feralas would be there.

[Zaelsino]

I'd assume this is why it's Thalyssra instead of Lor'themar who gives the PC exposition on the city. Like yeah it's a point of origin and historical significance for all descendants of the highborne, but it's really distant history for blood elves, whereas night elves and nightborne alive today called this their capital city once upon a time; they could have personally walked these very streets before the flooding. Lor'themar might take a few pictures to show the lads back home in Silvermoon, but that's a fleeting fancy next to the pathos Thalyssra must feel reconciling the Zin-Azshari she knew at the height of her people's empire with what it's become.

[matrix123mko]

p.s. did the demons destroy most of zin'Azshari? I thought they didn't touch that, it was every toher night elf city they destroyed.. people sometimes think the sundering destroyed the night elf empire, no, it didn't, it was the demons the queen unleashed that went through eveyr city, the hyjal survivors thought every city lost, (even though Surmaar and Eldre'thalas survived, blizz need to write how Eldre'thalas was missed,but then classic tells us the night elves hadn't been to that part of Feralas since before the sundering.. So they had been in isolation in northern Kalimdor, probably the druids going as far as Stonetalon (only the dream gate in northern Feralas would be there.

Zin'azshari was destroyed by the waves. Suramar and Zuldazar used shields to avoid that. Other cities were out of range of explosion, I suppose.

[ravenmoon]

Zin'azshari was destroyed by the waves. Suramar and Zuldazar used shields to avoid that. Other cities were out of range of explosion, I suppose.

Oh I meant, how the long vigil group didn't realise Eldre'thalas survived. Suramar was in a bubble no one knew what was underneath, but with most of the city sunk, probably assumed it was some arcane experiment gone amuck and let it be.

As for Eldre'thalas, a plausible theory is that the night elves really avoid their old ruins because it was very painful... this makes sense, because they loved their civilizaiton even though they hate the addiction and arrogance that came out of magic misuse. People keep thinking the night elves hated the arcane or cities, that's why they banned arcane magic, quite the opposite. These guys love arcane magic, it was banned to stop the legion returning, and they hated arrogance and the reckless misuse of arcane magic - because arcane magic was precious, almost sacred to them. They loved their civilization too, this is why they were so turned and devastated by its destruction - it was their pride and joy as they achieved and had done so much good in their world, bringing peace, justice, rightness and eliminating a lot of vile practices corruption etc, only for them to become corrupt through addiction.

I think while it is true the ban prevented them from using arcane magic that would allow them to rebuild, I don't think they wanted to either, I think their despair and great sorrow and a sense of self penance motivated them to drive themselves fully into the long vigil task, no exceptions - gone is living life fully, it's all about protecting and survival, gone are building families, trade, prosperity, progress etc, they probably don't feel they deserve any of that, but the legion invasion so terrible they would dedicate their entire living ot prevent this form ever re-occurring.

I think as such, they didn't want to go to all the old ruins, and unbury any of their previous magic and items, and wanted it to lie buried, almost as if to forget about the past, not because they hated it, but because it was painful, and it would remind them of their humiliation and their hubris too. it's powerful psychological reasons and motivations like that I think would have been prevalent, and healed over time, but the need to prevent the use of arcane magic to stop the demons returning ensured that they remained in that state.. Darth'remar's group on failing to convince them to start rebuilding , got exiled when their attempt to force their issue resulted in disaster..

So leldre'thalas wasn't explored, I don't believe they went throughout the reaches of the empire to check stuff out, they did a lot of things from the north, through scrying, the emerald dream but the patrols of the females I don't think crossed Ashenvale, it is said that those in the barrens, mulgore, desolace etc hadn't seen night elves in generations nad they were like legends to them, but also nobody crossed into the Ashenvale forest as those who went never returned. And this makes sense given how the senitnels attacked the orcs, and the reason is they were guarding the Well of Eternity, and it's magic that could probably be flet by sensitives as far as Asheenvlae, and they wouldn't risk any one, no sentient being, especially how Satyrs must have tried all sorts of tricks to locate the well, and use it.


Classic did say Feralas had not been visited from the sundering till around classic. (this probably means the green flight must have set up the emerald dream portal, or maybe nighte lf druid also participated in that, but wouldn't have gone further.

This probably how Eldre'thals' survival escaped their attention, I mean lets not forget the Shen'drlaar were the empires most revered arcanists, processing the Queen's top projects in secret.. this implies they were the ones likely that made all those magical marvels and wonder cities the Queen would wow her populace with, they would bet he magical engineering minds behind making it happen.. they were very smart... we know they managed to summon a demon after the well's collapse and trap it, without alerting ayone, they also shielded their magical usage from the twisting nether, because their activiites did not draw the legion to the world of Azeroth, what Darth'remar theorised could be done, and didn't mangae to do tillt hey founded Quel'thalas, the shen'drlaar did almost straight off the bat.. it is likely they also shielded their city from the scrying eyes of the druids, and masked its power signature, just like the high elves did 3,000 years later in Quel'thalas. They probably also cast an illusion spell (i'ts not recroded, but it seems a logical step, that was good enough to fool very intelligent and diligent night elves searching out magic, like the wardens would be. We know occasionally lone night elves would travel around Kalimdor on various business likely for either the druidic order or the sentinel order , chasing down threats etc.

anyway, that's what I meant. every city was attacked and overrun by demons, only Eldre'thalas survived the attacks, and about half/ or a 3rd roughly of Suramar, which was later shielded

[Volardelis]

Also kinda funny... Azshara has had 10k years to plan this attack and we defeated her on day 1...

She succeeded in freeing N'zoth and got out alive

I say that is a win win to Azshara and a lose lose to us.

So who defeated who?

[Sunderella]

Blood Elves and Nightborne have nothing in common with the ancient Highborne anymore.

[Beloren]

Blood Elves and Nightborne have nothing in common with the ancient Highborne anymore.

Blood elves don’t, but nightborne are pretty much ancient highborne with a different model, while shen’dralar highborne are exactly that.

[ravenmoon]

Blood elves don’t, but nightborne are pretty much ancient highborne with a different model, while shen’dralar highborne are exactly that.

But you see that all over. Blood elves have some connection but via ancestory, like Americans might have commonality with the Europeans or Africans they came from

[Varodoc]

She succeeded in freeing N'zoth and got out alive

I say that is a win win to Azshara and a lose lose to us.

So who defeated who?

We certainly crushed the Naga army and wiped out their command structure, so no, it is not a triumph for Azshara and a total defeat for us.

[eurojust]

Blood elves don’t, but nightborne are pretty much ancient highborne with a different model, while shen’dralar highborne are exactly that.

How? I keep seeing this everywhere. As far as i know Suramar wasn't a city filled only with Highbornes, quite the contrary when you had stuff like Jarod captain in the Guard of Suramar. You think that the waiter in a bar in Suramar was a highborne?

[Aucald]

High/Blood Elves are exceedingly long-lived, and as such it's likely to have only been 3-4 generations since the collapse of the pre-Sundering civilization of the Kaldorei. For a matter of contrast, ancient Kalimdor is as distant to the Sin'dorei as the early late 1800's are to us.

[Sunderella]

Blood elves don’t, but nightborne are pretty much ancient highborne with a different model, while shen’dralar highborne are exactly that.

And the fact that they have a different model, diffrent architecture, different culture and different source of power doesnt tell you that the Nightborne might have left behind completely its night elven roots?