(Loot Box's) Number of child gamblers quadruples in just two years....

[theclashofmagic]

We've basically handed out fun sized heroine sampler packs to every child with a phone.

[Temp name]

Thread's about 3 weeks old, but I feel it's relevant enough to revive for this: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-48925623

[Charge me Doctor]

And the question is still, as ever, "Why do these people/kids even have access to that much money to blow?"

These games are essentially vending machines. Do you give a kid your credit card and send them to the vending machine and then bitch when they come back with $500 worth of Snickers bars? No, because that'd make you an idiot, right?

I mean, how the fuck does your five year old have access to your credit cards?

It's a videogame rated for kids, it's not a vending machine

[Charge me Doctor]

I don't see how the hairsplitting here is important.

How does a kid have access to all that money? The games aren't magic hackers, they don't just reach a straw over and drink your milkshake.

It's not hairsplitting, you make false comparison. Videogame is just not a vending machine. Videogame that is rated for kids that also preys on said kids shouldn't be in business, and people who are responsible for this "videogame" should be put in jail.

[Coldkil]

Thread's about 3 weeks old, but I feel it's relevant enough to revive for this: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-48925623

That't the perfect example of what's happening.

Problem at the root is parents not caring/not informing themselves on how their children spend their time and how the new fancy and shiny technology actually works (hell, no one of them has ever questioned the fact everything is "free"?).

Anyway, the lootbox thing is basically videogame companies knowing well the situation and designing their games as traps for unattended children to blow out as much money as possible without their parents knowing (and i'm pretty sure that a 14yo kid knows well what's happening and why he's doing it in secret - reason why the parents discover it after it's too late).

The facts are pretty simple and clear:
- parents aren't paying enough attention to their kids
- companies are actively working through this to rake as much money as possible

It's obvious that if all parents suddently started being informed and competent and actually watch what their kids do, the issue wouldn't be present. However this is an utopic scenario hence someone has to take measures on the other side of the issue = videogame companies.

They're as guilty as distracted parents. They know what they're doing and they're buying time before the axe falls down - as governments are now mad about all the missed revenue that would have come out of this gold mine if it was regulated beforehand.

Point is, if companies actually kept their greed in touch and implemented "fair" systems, probably this would have passed over and no one would have bat an eye, slowly getting used to a new standard. However (and hilariously) because of EA and their crappy Battlefront 2 everything went out of scale and reached the ears of someone who actually managed to do the 2+2 and realize what was actually happening.

TLR; parents are to blame, but vg companies are guily of exploiting a very dangerous situation, and now need to pay for the damage done to the industry as a whole.

[Belize]

Bullshit. Parents need to stop shirking responsibility on this topic.

Companies sell things. Including things aimed at kids. If you gave a child access to infinite money, they'd buy $1000 in Pokemon card packs at the store, too. Which is why generally know better than to give kids access to unlimited funds in any situation.

This is common sense to everyone. No one would ever actually do this. But now they just connect all their money to their phone, hand the phone to the kid, and then act like, "HOLY CRAP THIS WAS TOTALLY UNFORSEEABLE!!!" when the kid spends money.

It's nonsense.

Here's the thing though, most parents don't know you can buy hundreds of dollars worth of shit in games.

To gamers, it sounds obvious because we've been dealing with this shit for years. But just like how fixing cars isn't necessarily obvious to non-menachically inclined people, neither is games rated for "Everyone" having literal gambling in it really obvious to the general population.

What do you expect parents to do, hover over their kids at all times to check if their games have microtransactions?

[Koji2k11]

excuse me those are not "lootboxes" those are "surprise mechanics"

[Logwyn]

That't the perfect example of what's happening.

Problem at the root is parents not caring/not informing themselves on how their children spend their time and how the new fancy and shiny technology actually works (hell, no one of them has ever questioned the fact everything is "free"?).

The way I deal with this with children in my life is simple. My phone is MY PHONE. Not yours. If you want to play on a phone then get a job and buy yourself one. (Telling an 8-year-old this is pointless but still the truth). Yeah, I get the "why are you being mean? That's not being nice. and they won't hurt anything" all from the parents and grandparents, in-laws, etc. Pffft!!!!

Then later you'll see their phone with the cracked screen and broken case. Them saying they need a new phone as their precious little darling Hunter dropped in and cracked it or hit it with a hammer. Why don't you get a new one then? They reply I don't have 600-1000 bucks and am waiting on a "free" phone upgrade. I then say well maybe you'll think about giving a 600-1000 dollar device to your 6 years to destroy next time? **Deer in headlights moment**

[Belize]

Fair enough...still the question needs to be asked: Why does your kid have access to your credit card? Or access to this kind of money. I mean..if the kid is like 15 and has earned this money by doing chores..it is his money...sure...different situation.

But even when I as a parent was not informed about everything on the marked (yep, I have kids) - there is zero chance in hell they have access to my credit card.

Kids understand that magic plastic card = get stuff. And a lot of them are crafty fucks, so grabbing mommy's card out of her wallet isn't exactly hard.

They probably don't understand how it works though.

And in a lot of these situations, the cards get saved automatically to accounts. See: buying a game on Google Play for example. It'll get saved, and then microtransactions just go through the saved card. It doesn't even ask for the security code 99% of the time. Or there was one article where the kids watched the dad enter the card info on the Xbox Store, and just memorized the steps.

You'd be surprised at how much your kids can learn/do without you knowing.

[Rafoel]

Kids understand that magic plastic card = get stuff. And a lot of them are crafty fucks, so grabbing mommy's card out of her wallet isn't exactly hard.
.

Must feel good to be outsmarted by literal 5-year-old.

[Temp name]

That't the perfect example of what's happening.

Problem at the root is parents not caring/not informing themselves on how their children spend their time and how the new fancy and shiny technology actually works (hell, no one of them has ever questioned the fact everything is "free"?).

Anyway, the lootbox thing is basically videogame companies knowing well the situation and designing their games as traps for unattended children to blow out as much money as possible without their parents knowing (and i'm pretty sure that a 14yo kid knows well what's happening and why he's doing it in secret - reason why the parents discover it after it's too late).

The facts are pretty simple and clear:
- parents aren't paying enough attention to their kids
- companies are actively working through this to rake as much money as possible

It's obvious that if all parents suddently started being informed and competent and actually watch what their kids do, the issue wouldn't be present. However this is an utopic scenario hence someone has to take measures on the other side of the issue = videogame companies.

They're as guilty as distracted parents. They know what they're doing and they're buying time before the axe falls down - as governments are now mad about all the missed revenue that would have come out of this gold mine if it was regulated beforehand.

Point is, if companies actually kept their greed in touch and implemented "fair" systems, probably this would have passed over and no one would have bat an eye, slowly getting used to a new standard. However (and hilariously) because of EA and their crappy Battlefront 2 everything went out of scale and reached the ears of someone who actually managed to do the 2+2 and realize what was actually happening.

TLR; parents are to blame, but vg companies are guily of exploiting a very dangerous situation, and now need to pay for the damage done to the industry as a whole.

Case number 1: A mentally disabled person who probably doesn't realize what he did was bad, company didn't get back when contacted about refunds (even the ones within 14 days)
Number 2: 16 year old stole parents credit card: He knew what he did was wrong, but it wasn't in a free game, it was in an NBA game
Number 3: 12 year old who didn't realize it was real money. Not the smartest kid, but still
Number 4: Phone had payments disabled, but the girl (aged 11) found a way to go around Google's restrictions to pay for things on the playstore
Number 5: 5 year old who didn't realize it was real money, parent was in the same room. It was rated PEGI 3 and parent assumed (wrongfully) that that means it's safe and won't pressure children into spending a shit ton of money
Number 6: Yeah, just a kid spending a ton of money
Number 7: App with a free trial is apparently allowed to just pull 93 pounds out of the account its set up on

That means that we have
1 mentally ill person who doesn't have a proper grasp on reality (Number 1)
2 teens who should know better, one of them even spending the money in a non-free to play game (Number 2 and 6)
2 children who either had parental supervision, and/or didn't know it was real money. (Number 3 and 5)
2 problems with the playstore (4 and 7)

Should the parents do better? Maybe. But it's only started being a big problem in the last 2-3 years, and the general populace who doesn't keep up with video game news are only starting to hear about this problem NOW. The companies who make these are entirely aware of what they're doing and why it's wrong, but they obviously either don't care, or do care, and know it's a great way to make a TON of money off of vulnerable people.
Someone linked Jim Sterling's video, he's previously done a video about grown-ups with addiction problems coming forward and saying that gaming is no longer safe due to all the same stimuli being present in games now. The parents aren't to blame in those cases, the companies willingly exploiting vulnerable people are.

[hydrium]

Kids understand that magic plastic card = get stuff. And a lot of them are crafty fucks, so grabbing mommy's card out of her wallet isn't exactly hard.

They probably don't understand how it works though.

This was the case when I was a kid, I wanted a Super Nintendo before my birthday and asked my mom to get one, she said we couldn't afford one right now and I'll just have to wait, I asked her why, we can just use the card. In my mind the card was the thing you swiped and got whatever you wanted, I had no clue that it was backed up by real cash you had to earn.

[Temp name]

I still think it's still a "why not both" kind of issue, parents need to do their god fucking job, just as the rating systems should do theirs.

Then let's step away from kids, and look at people with gambling addictions who used to play games but now can't because they'll sink their entire savings into loot boxes? Jim Sterling did a video going into details here: https://youtu.be/7S-DGTBZU14

[Onikaroshi]

I still think it's still a "why not both" kind of issue, parents need to do their god fucking job, just as the rating systems should do theirs.

Definitely a 2 fold problem, parent's need to make sure their kids can't access that kind of money and there should be in no way, shape, or form a game rated for THREE YEAR OLDS that has mtx's.

[TigTone]

Bad parents.

[Belize]

Yeah...I know...there was this case where a kid used the finger of her sleeping mum to unlock her phone and buy on Amazon.

Thing is...although I now live alone, my laptop has a password, my phone is always locked by a code, my browser can only access certain sites with a master password and no shopping can be done without entering the pw again.

C'mon....these parents are insanely careless and I am honestly annoyed that people try to blame companies. But hey...because parents are so useless, the responsibility of prohibiting kids from buying tobacco and alcohol is now shifted to shops.

But hey...I am honestly not surprised. When my kids were small...they didn't get mobiles from us. But one of the kids that they played with unfortunately was born with a ..whatever the pc term is...where at 10 years he had the intellect of a 5 year old. Yet his parents had given him a mobile with an unlimited tarif (if that is the word) and then wondered that he shopped things with the apps on it. Ofc they blamed the other kids ^^

It's easy to label someone as "careless" when you understand the problem while they might not. Honestly, I could do the same to you and label you as an overzealous helicopter parent that didn't let their kids do anything. Throwing labels around isn't really going to solve the problem of psychologically manipulative game mechanics that push microtransactions on its users. And they are, factually, designed to be psychologically manipulative as expressed by the people behind these schemes. It's all about "turning players into payers".


As I said, most people don't expect games to have gambling mechanics where anyone, not just kids, can spend tons of money. This thread is focused on the kids that don't understand where the money comes from, but the damage is just as bad for those with gambling problems or addictive personalities.

The physical gambling industry is heavily regulated for a reason, so why shouldn't the online gambling industry be as well?

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Must feel good to be outsmarted by literal 5-year-old.

Lil' Timmy waiting for you to be asleep before grabbing your card from where he sees you put it everyday equals being outsmarted to you?

It must be nice to consider such a low bar for what intelligence is. Makes things a lot simpler, I'm sure.

[qwerty123456]

And the question is still, as ever, "Why do these people/kids even have access to that much money to blow?"

These games are essentially vending machines. Do you give a kid your credit card and send them to the vending machine and then bitch when they come back with $500 worth of Snickers bars? No, because that'd make you an idiot, right?

I mean, how the fuck does your five year old have access to your credit cards?

You do realize what a credit card is right? If you give your kid cash for a vending machine you are giving them a limited resource. Sure you could be a dumbass and give them a hundred instead of a five and lose 95$ but credit cards are basically unlimited funds and you don't really notice how much you or your kids have spent until you check your bills. This is why most of the time I buy game cards like google play cash and shit, it requires me to go out to buy more and gives me a much lower purchasing limit.


Also most if not all games save your credit card info so its easier to get you to make more impulse purchases. If you are a parent that doesn't play games and you have to add your credit card info you might not realize that its saved.

As I said, rating systems should also do their jobs and inform the buyers exactly what the fuck they are getting into.

If even then people with gambling addictions still buy them, it's on them.

Why do you think its ok for a game with a life cycle of 1-10 years to allow you to spend thousands if not tens of thousands of dollars in it?

[Paraka]

So, if kid grabs credit card and goes down the block and buys a gigaton of candy and toys, it's the parents fault?

Buuuut, if it's in the digital space we need corporate entities to watch kids for us?

Seems like a disconnect of responsibility to me. When I was in college, my mother watched her card, that she gave me, on the daily. I watch my own spending on the daily. But parents who don't understand digital media material somehow get a pass for not watching their own money?

EA is literally being asked to watch other peoples' money from not being spent on their game? Are we literally at that stage now?

[Jtbrig7390]

So, if kid grabs credit card and goes down the block and buys a gigaton of candy and toys, it's the parents fault?

Buuuut, if it's in the digital space we need corporate entities to watch kids for us?

Seems like a disconnect of responsibility to me. When I was in college, my mother watched her card, that she gave me, on the daily. I watch my own spending on the daily. But parents who don't understand digital media material somehow get a pass for not watching their own money?

EA is literally being asked to watch other peoples' money from not being spent on their game? Are we literally at that stage now?

Its Both the parents and the company's fault.

Just because a parent doesn't watch their kid 24/7 that doesn't give a company the right to exploit said kid.

Fifa is a game rated E, A parent isn't going to think it has gambling in it and therefore the ESRB and other rating systems need to label it as such.

Edit: Also most stores will stop a kid from using a credit card...

[qwerty123456]

No shit, that's exactly what I pointed out in what you quoted.

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No where in what you wrote was you pointing out that credit cards are basically unlimited currency you need to deal with later. And most if not all vending machines don't accept credit cards. The majority of online shit can only be purchased with a credit card.

The hell does that mean? Is there some kind of cap on what you should be able to spend on something? Of course it's "ok" for people to spend however much they want on something.

What I mean is do you think its moral for a company that is going to release a new soccer game every year or two to have system in place where they can milk thousands of dollars from a single person? And its not what people "want" to spend on something, the people spending money on these games aren't fucking saying "I wish I could spend more money on random lootbox shit and get more garbage." the people spending money on this stuff "need" it(compete with others, upgrade a character,etc..) or don't realize how much they are spending in the moment because of predatory practices. If its not designed to be predatory why not just have a $1k skin with no random chance that way the people that "want" to spend the money can?