Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker

[PACOX]

True, but noone (we know of) can manipulate gravity. It is indiscriminate to everyone and everything. The Force, on the other hand, means very little to the vast majority of organisms in the Galaxy, while it probably has some impact on their life, they don't see much of that, unless they have someone force-sensitive born in their family. On the other hand, the Force (or rather the midichlorians...) could be manipulated to give tremendous powers to a sand-hating little virgin birth from Tatooine. Granted, it was a Sith who did this, not a Jedi, but that isn't something anyone can do. In fact, only one person could actually do it, as far as we know. And making any use of the Force is a power almost exclusively in the hands of the Jedi, a fact drastically downplayed by Luke. The previous movies never made a secret out of the symbiotic and whatsmore special relationship Jedi had with the Force, that these powers were both a boon and a responsibility, especially seeing how rare they were. The Force not being a power that some people possess and a great many others do not are simply not true, just as it would be false to say that the Force is nothing but a power some individuals possess.

Heck, just a few days prior to the scene between Luke and Rey she uses the power of the Force to defeat a trained Force user with a weapon she never held in her life. If that's not a power she possesses then I don't know what is.

Ok, I'll use different terms. Did you know that everyone knows physics? Even before physics became a formal science that is taught and studied, everyone knew physics. How? The laws of physics exist whether you know them by formal definition or not. Your brain the laws of physics and equations to practice every day even if you couldn't pass a physics class to save your life. We all know what goes up must come down, apply a force to an object results in an opposite, all without knowing a single equation. But there are those who are able to manipulate and understand physics better than others. We call those people scientist and athletes. They can manipulate physics in ways the average person cannot produce amazing results.

What does that have to do with SW? Imagine I was talking about the Force in SW instead of physics. The Force is in all things, all things are tied to the Force. The average none force-sensitives uses the Force when they act on a hunch, feel an urge towards something for no reason, pull off a 'lucky' catch/shot/whatever. They aren't aware of it because they aren't force-sensitive (an athlete) or a student of the Force (a physicist). The Force means nothing to them, they aren't aware of it, but they do use it and it uses them. Example, the Force brought Han to Luke and Leia. The Force was the voice in the back of Finn's head to flee in TFA. You won't see these people pull off huge displays of the Force or tap into it at will the same way someone sitting on their couch could suddenly become an NBA superstar.

Jedi and Sith are the physicist and athletes of the Force. They are more aware of it than others. Able to understand in manipulate better than others but the use of it is not exclusive to them. When says what he does in RotJ he is saying his family is made up of a bunch of Force athletes. In TLJ is describing how the Force can manifest in any way even if they aren't away of it. Thats how I reconcile what he said.

[eschatological]

The german title is ambigous aswell. 'Aufstieg', from 'aufsteigen', can be both in a very grounded context, as in rising through the ranks, aswell as 'rising to heaven' in a more biblical way.

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Well, it removes the ability of smaller craft to jump to hyperspace, craft that we've seen jumping to hyperspace in the prior movie, crafts that literally just got to that base by jumping to Lightspeed hours befor TLJ takes place, btw; it makes both the Resistance and the First Order look like completly inept mentally challenged idiots that make the Battle of Winterfell look like a strategically sound plan; it has Luke Skywalker outright lie to us in regards of the Force, because use of the Force is a power that the Jedi do posess, as Luke says himself in Return of the Jedi... shall I go on?

Wait, how does it remove that? They were fleeing to a planet in the system they were already in, where they knew an old base was. And, like Poe, they probably also knew that they were being tracked through hyperspace, so jumping into a barren system with no base was a worse option than trying to stealth to a planetside base.

In other words, they CHOSE not to activate hyperspeed on their smaller crafts.


Luke's point about the Force is that the Jedi do not "own" the Force. It is a philosophical point. As Yoda says, the Force flows through you. It isn't yours. He's not saying Jedi can't use the Force. "Possess" is the English equivalent to "own." And Luke is saying that Leia has the power to harnass the Force, not that she owns the power OF the Force. It's a subtle distinction in English.

[Fayolynn]

It seems weird to be having this conversation about the Force. In ESB Yoda explains that the Force is everywhere and comes from all living beings. In RotJ Luke talks about the Force being strong in his family (meaning his families ability to tap I to and use the Force). In TPM we find out Anakin has an absurdly high midiclorian count which seems to be an indicator of someone's ability to use the Force. Based on those facts, the Force is everywhere and in everyone, but not all people can use the force and of the ones that can use it not all can use to it to the same degree. The Jedi and Sith are just groups that have learned how to use the Force and passed on their teaching through the ages. If tomorrow every Sith and Jedi was gone and all their teachings vanish you would still have people capable of using the Force and eventually new groups would come I to existence to teach others and pass along traditions.

[Skulltaker]

Wait, how does it remove that? They were fleeing to a planet in the system they were already in, where they knew an old base was. And, like Poe, they probably also knew that they were being tracked through hyperspace, so jumping into a barren system with no base was a worse option than trying to stealth to a planetside base.

In other words, they CHOSE not to activate hyperspeed on their smaller crafts.


Luke's point about the Force is that the Jedi do not "own" the Force. It is a philosophical point. As Yoda says, the Force flows through you. It isn't yours. He's not saying Jedi can't use the Force. "Possess" is the English equivalent to "own." And Luke is saying that Leia has the power to harnass the Force, not that she owns the power OF the Force. It's a subtle distinction in English.

The X-Wings return to the hangar of the Raddus befor they escape D'qar, instead of jumping with the fleet, as is usual, just to create more tension. The one who chose to not let them simply jump away were the writers because they ran out of ideas how to create tension in a galaxy where everybody can buy and pilot an FTL capable craft.

They could have taken the escape craft and jumped anywhere. As we learn in the movie, the First Order only tracks the Raddus. A six minute window would have been plenty of time for them to escape. At least that's what Rose and Fins magical knowledge of thus far unencountered First Order tech tells us. How reliable that is is a different matter. They could have sent each small ship to another system where they have allies. Sure, some would get caught, but even more would have lived to fight on. You know, instead of them being reduced to 14 people at the end of TLJ.

Crait and D'Qar are not in the same system, btw. D'qar is in the Ileenium System, Crait in the Crait system. Just saying. Distances never mattered in SW, so I'm not holding it against the movie that they manage to move lightyears in hours. It's always been about the destinations, not the travel.

No, the Force isn't yours. What you do with it, however, is completly up to you, and your desires. It doesn't refuse itself (at least I don't know of any Force User who was denied the aid of the Force when he needed it), and this ability is exclusily owned by the Jedi, or, as an extension, the Sith. I don't recall if there are any canonical Force Users aside from them left, but seeing how the Force has no impact on the lives of anybody but Jedi, unless they use it to protect/harm them, you can pretty much say that they in fact do own it. So, again, saying the Force isn't a power that the Jedi have is completly false. It isn't the only thing that the Force is, but it is a major aspect of it, and by far the one with the biggest impact on the Galaxy. As far as we know, any other impact the Force has is completly negligable.

[Voidwielder]

I see Force as a sort of hidden dimension of the Universe that some can tap in to on demand/is in contact with 24/7.

[Skulltaker]

Ok, I'll use different terms. Did you know that everyone knows physics? Even before physics became a formal science that is taught and studied, everyone knew physics. How? The laws of physics exist whether you know them by formal definition or not. Your brain the laws of physics and equations to practice every day even if you couldn't pass a physics class to save your life. We all know what goes up must come down, apply a force to an object results in an opposite, all without knowing a single equation. But there are those who are able to manipulate and understand physics better than others. We call those people scientist and athletes. They can manipulate physics in ways the average person cannot produce amazing results.

What does that have to do with SW? Imagine I was talking about the Force in SW instead of physics. The Force is in all things, all things are tied to the Force. The average none force-sensitives uses the Force when they act on a hunch, feel an urge towards something for no reason, pull off a 'lucky' catch/shot/whatever. They aren't aware of it because they aren't force-sensitive (an athlete) or a student of the Force (a physicist). The Force means nothing to them, they aren't aware of it, but they do use it and it uses them. Example, the Force brought Han to Luke and Leia. The Force was the voice in the back of Finn's head to flee in TFA. You won't see these people pull off huge displays of the Force or tap into it at will the same way someone sitting on their couch could suddenly become an NBA superstar.

Jedi and Sith are the physicist and athletes of the Force. They are more aware of it than others. Able to understand in manipulate better than others but the use of it is not exclusive to them. When says what he does in RotJ he is saying his family is made up of a bunch of Force athletes. In TLJ is describing how the Force can manifest in any way even if they aren't away of it. Thats how I reconcile what he said.

The part about 'getting lucky', 'having a hunch' etc, is that established anywhere, or is this your interpretation?

I mean, don't get me wrong, it's a cool interpretation, I haven't thought about it that way, but.. still. From what we observe so far, the most likely way for anyone to expreience the Force is to find one at the buisness end of a lightsaber.

[eschatological]

They could have taken the escape craft and jumped anywhere. As we learn in the movie, the First Order only tracks the Raddus. A six minute window would have been plenty of time for them to escape. At least that's what Rose and Fins magical knowledge of thus far unencountered First Order tech tells us. How reliable that is is a different matter. They could have sent each small ship to another system where they have allies. Sure, some would get caught, but even more would have lived to fight on. You know, instead of them being reduced to 14 people at the end of TLJ.

I thought the tracking was specified as FROM the first ship, not TO the first ship. IE, they could track all of the Rebel ships, but only the first ship was doing the tracking, which is why they needed to disable it on that capital ship. When did they ever say they were only tracking the Raddus?

And the blind guy in Rogue One seemed to imply non-Jedi could use the Force. Regardless, the point is - if the Jedi ceased to exist, the Force would still exist. And the idea that The Force needs to balance itself seems like it would exist without the Sith/Jedi dichotomy. Thus, the Jedi brought about the Sith because the Force, acting externally, needed to balance itself. Luke is trying to destroy that dichotomy so that the darkness isn't so potent/concentrated. It's literally the same Truth the Buddha came to, which is ironic since the original Jedi Order was supposed to loosely mirror Buddhism.

Edit: To add on, I think TLJ showed pretty extensively that the Force exists outside of the Jedi and moves without their input. Luke scoffs at the idea of him just "showing up as one man, and defeating the First Order," yet that's exactly what happened when he Force Projected to "fight" Kylo. He also scoffed at the idea that the Force is about making people do what you want and move rocks, yet these are exactly the two things the Force lets Rey do in TFA and then at the end of TLJ. This movie is about Luke's mistakes - both in training Kylo, but also in cutting himself off from the Force and hiding. Much as the Canto Bight scene is the worst in TLJ, the implication is that the Force guides two non-force users to a force-sensitive stable boy, who aids in their escape.

[PACOX]

The part about 'getting lucky', 'having a hunch' etc, is that established anywhere, or is this your interpretation?

I mean, don't get me wrong, it's a cool interpretation, I haven't thought about it that way, but.. still. From what we observe so far, the most likely way for anyone to expreience the Force is to find one at the buisness end of a lightsaber.

In Legends its hinted that Han has some involvement with the Force. People have argued back in about it when it comes to the movies/canon if Han's luck is just luck or he unconsciously uses the Force at times. Obi-wan doesn't believe there is such thing as luck and we know Han didn't believe in the Force until he was forced to.

Then there's the blind monk in Rogue One who wasn't a force-sensitive but might have called on it during his final stand.

No one has ever said, thats not how it works as far as I know.

[Skulltaker]

I thought the tracking was specified as FROM the first ship, not TO the first ship. IE, they could track all of the Rebel ships, but only the first ship was doing the tracking, which is why they needed to disable it on that capital ship. When did they ever say they were only tracking the Raddus?

And the blind guy in Rogue One seemed to imply non-Jedi could use the Force. Regardless, the point is - if the Jedi ceased to exist, the Force would still exist. And the idea that The Force needs to balance itself seems like it would exist without the Sith/Jedi dichotomy. Thus, the Jedi brought about the Sith because the Force, acting externally, needed to balance itself. Luke is trying to destroy that dichotomy so that the darkness isn't so potent/concentrated. It's literally the same Truth the Buddha came to, which is ironic since the original Jedi Order was supposed to loosely mirror Buddhism.

Edit: To add on, I think TLJ showed pretty extensively that the Force exists outside of the Jedi and moves without their input. Luke scoffs at the idea of him just "showing up as one man, and defeating the First Order," yet that's exactly what happened when he Force Projected to "fight" Kylo. He also scoffed at the idea that the Force is about making people do what you want and move rocks, yet these are exactly the two things the Force lets Rey do in TFA and then at the end of TLJ. This movie is about Luke's mistakes - both in training Kylo, but also in cutting himself off from the Force and hiding. Much as the Canto Bight scene is the worst in TLJ, the implication is that the Force guides two non-force users to a force-sensitive stable boy, who aids in their escape.

If they were hyperspace-tracking all ships then why did anybody expect they could sneak off board, like Fin and Rose did? Noone on board the Supremacy raised any alarms when they left. So, why not do that with more ships? Why expect to be able to go to a life supporting planet that the First Order can see opposed to having 30 ships jump to 30 systems? What was the plan? Did they expect the First Order to be so dumb as not to check the clearly visible planet? And even if they could track them all at once, the second they got away they'd only have to drop out of hyperspace and take a different route. Disabeling the device for a couple of minutes would have been more then enough to fool the tracking device, so, jumping a few lightyears away should do the trick.

The blind guy in Rogue One, Chirrut Îmwe, was stated to have no Force powers whatsoever. He was one of the Guardians of the Whills, Whills being a word used by Geroge Lucas in early drafts of Star Wars instead of 'The Force', around the time Luke was still called Starkiller. He's just a really good warrior and has honed his skills.

I don't recall anything in Last Jedi that shows us the Force doing anything 'without input', care to specify? They end up next to the stable boy through a series of rather bad decisions, like parking their ship at the beach when there's a landing pad. Nothing in the movie suggests that they were guided there, it's an interesting notion, but not one supported by the movie, I'd say. He also does very very little to actually help them.

In Legends its hinted that Han has some involvement with the Force. People have argued back in about it when it comes to the movies/canon if Han's luck is just luck or he unconsciously uses the Force at times. Obi-wan doesn't believe there is such thing as luck and we know Han didn't believe in the Force until he was forced to.

Then there's the blind monk in Rogue One who wasn't a force-sensitive but might have called on it during his final stand.

No one has ever said, thats not how it works as far as I know.

Well, yes, indeed, noone has ever said that this isn't how it works, however, in this case, one can think of any number of what-ifs how things should or could work. Noone ever said that Star Destroyers are not fueled by Ewok-Blood either, still, I somewhat doubt that's the case.

Again, it's a nice theory, but I don't see much support for it. It would explain how the A-Team usually gets away with the stuff they do.

As for Han, if he can unconciously use the Force, that would have made him Force sensitive, like Anakin Skywalker unconsciously used the Force to participate in Pod Races. So far, the canon has been rather consistant about it. You're either Force sensitive, in which case you can be trained asa Jedi, or you're not, in which case, good luck. There have always been individuals who cannot use the Force but excel in their trade to a point that allows them to go toe to toe with even Jedi Masters, like Jango Fett, General Grievous, Chirrut Îmwe, and to an extend, Han.

[Kontinuum]

[Yoshingo]

Just saw the RLM video too and that timetraveling theory is just stereotypical enough to be true haha.

[Super Kami Dende]

LMao, was just coming here to post this. the RLM guys are legit my favourite Movie critics in existence.

[Kathranis]

The ewok death cult worshipping Palpatine in the ruins of the Death Star is a cooler idea than it has any right to be.

[Kokolums]

The item Rey is seen carrying when they look out at the ruins of the Death Star is a stormtrooper jetpack we see earlier in the trailer. She is the only one who has one, so that means while they all walk to the beach, its only going to be Rey that flies across the ocean to land on the ruins. Then she will fight Kylo atop the ruins.

[Zaktar]

The ewok death cult worshipping Palpatine in the ruins of the Death Star is a cooler idea than it has any right to be.

The only problem with that theory is how disappointing the story will be compared to it.

[Verdugo]

The only problem with that theory is how disappointing the story will be compared to it.

And that it would propably be more porgs instead of ewoks.

[tromage2]

The fall out after the last jedi will be big.
That anybody still cares about Star Wars after that mess.

Force ghosts that can cast lightning, well what threat can an enemy still be when force ghosts can just fix things in a instant.
Characters are boring and Rey is a mary sue.

Nope i am going to skip this, maybe watch it online on a stream site but thats it.

[Kokolums]

The fall out after the last jedi will be big.
That anybody still cares about Star Wars after that mess.

Force ghosts that can cast lightning, well what threat can an enemy still be when force ghosts can just fix things in a instant.
Characters are boring and Rey is a mary sue.

Nope i am going to skip this, maybe watch it online on a stream site but thats it.

That's a real big problem with the sequel trilogy. The characters are boring. I agree with Rich and Mike that had Rey and Kylo teamed up in some sort of weird sith / jedi love affair / tag team at the end of the Last Jedi, it had the potential to be VERY interesting because its something we've really not seen before. But at the same time, a plot like that seems like something only an expert could handle and these writers aren't experts.

[Jotaux]

That's a real big problem with the sequel trilogy. The characters are boring. I agree with Rich and Mike that had Rey and Kylo teamed up in some sort of weird sith / jedi love affair / tag team at the end of the Last Jedi, it had the potential to be VERY interesting because its something we've really not seen before. But at the same time, a plot like that seems like something only an expert could handle and these writers aren't experts.

I just don't understand why Rey didn't take control of the First Order with Kylo. It would have instantly solved all their problems. Merge the resistance with the first order. She controls the First Order so just make it what she wants.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I just don't understand why Rey didn't take control of the First Order with Kylo. It would have instantly solved all their problems. Merge the resistance with the first order. She controls the First Order so just make it what she wants.

Rey didn’t join the first order because Kylo wasn’t gonna stop the killing he wanted the past to die so he was gonna wipe out the rebels and start fresh with him and Rey leading.

Rey liked her friends not being dead more then she liked Kylo. Though given how characterless her friends are I would have picked Kylo.