"Now Thunder Bluff will burn..." Hold on, what?

[Hubbl3]

She literally tried to kill herself. She's just too scared to die now.

So she doesn't have suicidal tendencies anymore? :P

[KrakHed]

So she doesn't have suicidal tendencies anymore? :P

Just like Saurfang! Gee gosh. Except Saurfang's lack of present suicidal tendencies isn't rooted in terror.

[CrawlFromThePit]

This is the biggest and most obvious misdirection in BFA. Nothing is going to happen to fucking Thunder Bluff of all places because regardless of the plot nobody cares about Thunder Bluff, so there will be no raid warfront or anything happening there.

Nobody cared about stromgarde either.
Blizzard is having fun making unused spots more used, Mulgore has a lot of open space to make a warfront, it would actually make sense geographically. But of course in terms of plotting, it's stupid as shit.

[Arrashi]

She literally tried to kill herself. She's just too scared to die now. Hell, she didn't just try to kill herself. She straight up killed herself. Being willing to forgive Sylvanas for outright killing himself, but not Saurfang for trying to go down fighting, is a double standard.

Which means that unlike certain someone at least she had balls to pull the trigger.

[EbaumsTipster]

Which means that unlike certain someone at least she had balls to pull the trigger.

Suicide is badass now? LOL.

[Arrashi]

Suicide is badass now? LOL.

No, but its still better than waiting years for chance of assisted suicide. And mind you - saurfang failed every time even at that.

[Rozz]

Sure. I'm just saying it's hypocritical to assume that Sylvanas is better for the Horde than the 'traitors' are, in the long run.

I think that entirely depends on what you want the Horde to be. If you want the Horde to be a faction sustained on what it currently has and maintaining harmony between the races, Thrall/Baine are your best bet. If you want the Horde to be as powerful/glorious as possible, then Sylvanas and Garrosh proved to be the better options.

I know people go the "So you want to be murderers?" route, but I feel like applying human/modern ethics in a world were genocide is the norm was a mistake by the devs. I focus on the goal of the people and overall faction. Sylvanas isn't popular with the population because they want to be evil, she's popular because she promises power. In how she betrays Baine/Suarfang's long term goals of the Horde, they also betray her's and "the people's". Even Saurfang didn't mind her conquest for power, he just hated how far she went for it. So there is nothing hypocritical in simply preferring one goal over the other, because both sides are better suited for their own respective plans.

[TheRevenantHero]

Sure. I'm just saying it's hypocritical to assume that Sylvanas is better for the Horde than the 'traitors' are, in the long run.

Nothing Sylvanas has done has betrayed the best interest of the Horde. Lok'tar ogar, victory or death. That is the Horde way. Sylvanas has been doing everything for the Horde, to WIN. Saurfang and Baine are cowardly traitors who have absolutely no fucking honor whatsoever. If they were so concerned about Sylvanas ruining the Horde they would have challenged her to mak'gora. Because then if she refused, the Horde would turn on her. If she accepted and won, it would actually strengthen the Horde. If she lost, then there would RIGHTFULLY be a new warchief.

[Varodoc]

Lok'tar ogar, victory or death. That is the Horde way.

So why didn't they stay at the Broken Shore? They lost, so they should have died.

[Rozz]

So why didn't they stay at the Broken Shore? They lost, so they should have died.

Because she and everyone else who lived through that event is smarter than an orc.

[Varodoc]

Because she and everyone else who lived through that event is smarter than an orc.

So you are suggesting that Sylvanas' way is not the Horde's way?

[Rozz]

So you are suggesting that Sylvanas' way is not the Horde's way?

More so mocking the idea that people consider the orcish way the Horde way, when the modern Horde was lead by the most human orc in all creation.

I feel like forcing the faction to live by orcish standards when their own leader didn't is silly.

[Maljinwo]

I feel like forcing the faction to live by orcish standards when their own leader didn't is silly.

Not even Garrosh lived by that motto

[Mehrunes]

"Remember your loyalties" -threatening every Horde leader present if they don't fall in line with her at the meeting.

"In the end they will serve death. They will serve me." -Sylvanas talking about her own friggin' sisters

"Honor means nothing to a corpse, Saurfang....Anyone who disagrees [with my tactics] does not deserve to stand among us." -Sylvanas reprimanding Saurfang for his valuing of honor instead of victory at all costs.

"If that troubles you...you are free to join him." -More Battle of Lordaeron, reinforcing that not only caring about honor, but caring about people that care about honor, means you will be discarded.

"Life is pain. Hope fails. Now you understand." -Warbringers, as Sylvanas crushes hope. Crushing hope as a motif also reinforced by Before The Storm.

"The army of undead that surrounded and protected the Dark Lady was still hers, body and soul. But they were no longer arrows in her quiver, not anymore. They were a bulwark against the infinite. They were to be used wisely, and no fool orc would squander them while she still walked the world of the living." -Edge of Night, as Sylvanas reinforces that, while she values her forces, they are still hers. Tools to be wisely used. But, as seen in Before The Storm, a threat when exercising any will independent of her own.

"Can't really answer, much left to discover and explore. If I were Sylvanas looking at what Garrosh hath wrought, i'd probably think Garrosh was an amateur." -quote from a QA from the story team, bolstering the Garrosh comparison specifically.

I'm not sure you understand the purpose of quotation. Because literally none of these quotes say what you claimed earlier. Especially since you quote things like Edge of War to prove how she still views the Forsaken as tools, only to then spread your usual fanfiction about the events of Before the Storm. The same Before the Storm in which Sylvanas refers to the Forsaken simply as her people and thinks about how she wants to save them.

[cparle87]

"Remember your loyalties" -threatening every Horde leader present if they don't fall in line with her at the meeting.

"In the end they will serve death. They will serve me." -Sylvanas talking about her own friggin' sisters

"Honor means nothing to a corpse, Saurfang....Anyone who disagrees [with my tactics] does not deserve to stand among us." -Sylvanas reprimanding Saurfang for his valuing of honor instead of victory at all costs.

"If that troubles you...you are free to join him." -More Battle of Lordaeron, reinforcing that not only caring about honor, but caring about people that care about honor, means you will be discarded.

"Life is pain. Hope fails. Now you understand." -Warbringers, as Sylvanas crushes hope. Crushing hope as a motif also reinforced by Before The Storm.

"The army of undead that surrounded and protected the Dark Lady was still hers, body and soul. But they were no longer arrows in her quiver, not anymore. They were a bulwark against the infinite. They were to be used wisely, and no fool orc would squander them while she still walked the world of the living." -Edge of Night, as Sylvanas reinforces that, while she values her forces, they are still hers. Tools to be wisely used. But, as seen in Before The Storm, a threat when exercising any will independent of her own.

"Can't really answer, much left to discover and explore. If I were Sylvanas looking at what Garrosh hath wrought, i'd probably think Garrosh was an amateur." -quote from a QA from the story team, bolstering the Garrosh comparison specifically.

1.) Meant you'd better not go out there and help the Alliance just because you disagree with my tactics. Which he went and did anyway.
3.) She's not wrong. If you're dead then you can't help anyone. Saurfang is valuing dying with "honor" over living to help the Horde survive and prosper. Sylvanas is going "You're free to go die if it'll make you feel better. I'll keep the Horde alive when you're gone."
4.) Same thing as before. If dying for an abstract concept means more to you than protecting the Horde, we don't need you.

The whole Saurfang vs Sylvanas thing boils down to idealists vs realist. Saurfang would rather die, and risk letting the entire Horde be destroyed, rather than violate his moral code. Sylvanas will violate every moral code she still has left to preserve the Horde. The best path lies something in between their two extremes.

[Yes but actually no]

So why didn't they stay at the Broken Shore? They lost, so they should have died.

Victory or death isn't really as it's popularly considered a "i'm going all in" thing for me, it's about the final outcome of the war, not the battle.

[Varodoc]

Victory or death isn't really as it's popularly considered a "i'm going all in" thing for me, it's about the final outcome of the war, not the battle.

And yet when Garrosh, who was obsessed with that Orcish motto and in general with Orcish supremacy, lost the Alliance-Horde War, he did not commit suicide like the motto dictated.

[Yes but actually no]

And yet when Garrosh, who was obsessed with that Orcish motto and in general with Orcish supremacy, lost the Alliance-Horde War, he did not commit suicide like the motto dictated.

He quite literally died trying to win the war?

[Varodoc]

He quite literally died trying to win the war?

What are you talking about? He did not die, he was captured and brought to Pandaria to face a trial after the war ended, when he should have committed suicide because he lost.

[Skulltaker]

What are you talking about? He did not die, he was captured and brought to Pandaria to face a trial after the war ended, when he should have committed suicide because he lost.

Where does it say that he has to commit suicide if he loses?