"Now Thunder Bluff will burn..." Hold on, what?

[Varodoc]

Where does it say that he has to commit suicide if he loses?

It's in the motto. "Victory or Death". If you don't win, then you die. That's literally what it means. So since he didn't win, he should have died, instead of living despite losing the war.

The motto isn't "Victory or Live To Fight Another Day", the motto is "Victory or Death". Why do you think that only the crazy Orc supremacists cared about that motto?

[Mehrunes]

Garrosh was captured and imprisoned...

Besides, this is nothing more than the usual butchering of the saying. It's not about never retreating, because even the most Lok'tar Orcs to ever Ogar like Garrosh or Grom retreaten when necessary. It's also not about committing suicide when defeated. It's simply about fighting at all cost instead of surrendering to your enemy.

[Yes but actually no]

What are you talking about? He did not die, he was captured and brought to Pandaria to face a trial after the war ended, when he should have committed suicide because he lost.

We didn't kill him, we captured him, he broke free and once again tried to win the war then died, it's pretty simple. Victory or death doesn't mean if i don't win "i will kill myself", it's "i will win or die trying" your opinion of Garrosh is pretty clear but where you get this notion of suicide from is beyond me, how was he supposed to commit this hypothetical suicide when captured exactly? Instead of breaking free and re attempting to win the war he should have broke free just to kill himself? What?

[Varodoc]

We didn't kill him, we captured him, he broke free and once again tried to win the war then died. It's pretty simple, Victory or death doesn't mean if i don't win "i will kill myself", it's "i will win or die trying" your opinion of Garrosh is pretty clear but where you get this notion of suicide from is beyond me, how was he supposed to commit this hypothetical suicide when captured exactly? Instead of breaking free and re attempting to win the war he should have broke free just to kill himself? What?

The war he was fighting in already ended. He was fighting another war. The faction war in Mists did not carry over to Warlords of Draenor.

The rest was already addressed.

[Skulltaker]

It's in the motto. "Victory or Death". If you don't win, then you die. That's literally what it means. So since he didn't win, he should have died, instead of living despite losing the war.

Lok'tar Ogar, isn't it? I always took it as 'keep fighting until you win, or die'. 'Never give up', if you whish. Which he did. He was imprisoned, escaped, and started all over. He kept fighting until he was killed. If it meant 'commit suicide once you lose, all Horde PCs should have killed themselves after they lost a round of Arathi.

[Yes but actually no]

The war he was fighting in already ended. He was fighting another war. The faction war in Mists did not carry over to Warlords of Draenor.

The rest was already addressed.

The war wasn't over for him until he is dead, lok'tar ogar.

[Skulltaker]

The war he was fighting in already ended. He was fighting another war. The faction war in Mists did not carry over to Warlords of Draenor.

The rest was already addressed.

The faction war in mists was started by Garrosh. He never kept waging war on the Alliance. He kept that faction war going through warlords, actually. He just picked up another Horde.

[Varodoc]

Lok'tar Ogar, isn't it? I always took it as 'keep fighting until you win, or die'. 'Never give up', if you whish. Which he did. He was imprisoned, escaped, and started all over. He kept fighting until he was killed. If it meant 'commit suicide once you lose, all Horde PCs should have killed themselves after they lost a round of Arathi.

I mean, following that logic, what is the point of having that motto? Everyone tries to win in life, it doesn't make sense to have a motto that basically tells you "Always try to win". Ok… Thanks?

The faction war in mists was started by Garrosh. He never kept waging war on the Alliance. He kept that faction war going through warlords, actually. He just picked up another Horde.

They are the same conflict as much as the Third War and the Third Invasion of the Legion were the same conflict.

I agree to disagree. This debate over an ambiguous motto is getting tiresome to be honest.

[Mehrunes]

Lok'tar Ogar, isn't it? I always took it as 'keep fighting until you win, or die'. 'Never give up', if you whish. Which he did. He was imprisoned, escaped, and started all over. He kept fighting until he was killed. If it meant 'commit suicide once you lose, all Horde PCs should have killed themselves after they lost a round of Arathi.

Precisely. And it's not like we don't have evidence of what Orcs actually find condemnable in terms of warfare. We do, in Northern Barrens. Where they condemn the Orcs that surrendered to the Alliance and were consequently imprisoned. Where the player offers them a chance at redemption by arming them so they can die fighting. While we see no cases of them being against retreating etc.

It's also clear what this stems from. The Orcs were enslaved by the Ogres for a long time, so they obviously have a historical aversion to submitting to their enemies and as such want to keep fighting even if things look bleak for them. There's also the whole "we will never be slaves" used by AU Grom to rally the Orcs.

[Skulltaker]

I mean, following that logic, what is the point of having that motto? Everyone tries to win in life, it doesn't make sense to have a motto that basically tells you "Always try to win". Ok… Thanks?

What's the point of having any motto? It sounds catchy, and sometimes people have to be told the obvious. Sometimes they are also just really really stupid. People still draww inspiration from it. "Victory or Death!" makes for a boatload better rallying cry than "Always try your best until you succeed or die!"

[Newname1234567890]

The Thunder Bluff scenario is just an example I came up with, it's not important, but we agree on the idea that a large part of the Alliance can't help the Horde just because a kid demands it.

I think you are way too lenient with the Horde. Tyrande won't become a villain just because she gives the Horde a taste of their own medicine. The people of Orgrimmar were celebrating and feasting when word came of Theramore's destruction. Fuck them, if Tyrande does get the chance to invade Orgrimmar, she should sack the capital and then raze it to the ground until nothing is left but ruins. Let the Horde know what it truly means to suffer the horrors of war.

Let's be real, the Undercity wasn't the victory that the Alliance deserved. We didn't conquer anything, we needed deus ex machina to counter our leader's stupidity, and Sylvanas lost on her own terms. I want a onesided Alliance carnage, just like the Burning of Teldrassil was for the Horde.

I mean they celebrated the destruction of a enemy's military port which was within striking distance (and in cata had already struck) they're homelands. That's not exactly an evil position

(I do completely agree that the idea the entire Alliance would fall behind Boi King in defending thunder bluff is dumb)

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What are you talking about? He did not die, he was captured and brought to Pandaria to face a trial after the war ended, when he should have committed suicide because he lost.

In his defense he literally broke time to continue his war of Orcish Supremacy. That's dedication to the cause.

[Varodoc]

I mean they celebrated the destruction of a enemy's military port which was within striking distance (and in cata had already struck) they're homelands. That's not exactly an evil position

(I do completely agree that the idea the entire Alliance would fall behind Boi King in defending thunder bluff is dumb)

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In his defense he literally broke time to continue his war of Orcish Supremacy. That's dedication to the cause.

All I am saying is that they could show some remorse for blowing up the city of the person who protected their Horde in the first place, going against her own father and people. Orcs want to be honorable, there is a lot of honor in sympathizing with the enemy.

But the point is that from an Alliance perspective, you shouldn't be ashamed of waging war on such a remorseless people.

[Newname1234567890]

All I am saying is that they could show some remorse for blowing up the city of the person who protected their Horde in the first place, going against her own father and people. Orcs want to be honorable, there is a lot of honor in sympathizing with the enemy.

But the point is that from an Alliance perspective, you shouldn't be ashamed of waging war on such a remorseless people.

Nah entirely agree. The bombing of theramore was about the most morally grey faction war thing blizzard ever did in wow. Shame couldn't get that stuff in BFA

[justandulas]

What are you talking about? He did not die, he was captured and brought to Pandaria to face a trial after the war ended, when he should have committed suicide because he lost.

Why? his opponents cheated to win, he knew his loss wasn't just, so he went back in time (using help from those who realize he was destined to win) and tried to right the wrong.

It isn't his fault thrall and his band of traitors stopped him through bad blizz writing.

[Raetary]

...

what?

/10chars

[Feanoro]

Lok'tar Ogar, isn't it?

"Fight until you win, or run away if you're losing, just don't surrender!" didn't get past the Shadow Council focus group.

[Casperite]

I really hate when writers break the rule "show, dont tell" writing, especially when they want to break that rule to move the plot in the direction they need.
You know, when all circumstance realistically can result in a certain direction that doesnt fit writer's narrative, so the writer had to tell the reader to look at different thing instead of letting them to come there by themselves (or to come somewhere else).

Because thats what exactly happened in Baine cinematic. Yeah, Tauren former leader was saved by some alliance people and couple renegades. I can make dozen assumptions on what can realistically happened next but the sack of Thunder Bluff would be last thing on my list of what can happen.

I mean, i can clearly see what Blizzard wanted to do - to create some character moments with Jaina and Thrall and make beautiful parallel with the battle for Mount Hyjal. Okay.
But the way Thrall suddenly dropped "Now Thunder Bluff will burn" doesnt feel organically and logically right.
This logical assumption of Thrall came literally out of nowhere.
You can replace the location with "Crossroads" or "Toilet in Searing Gorge" and it would make as much sense. Thrall could have say "Now Void-Lords will come to Azeroth" and that would make as much sense.

That assumption of Thrall would be fine if there was the build up to it, like:
-The bunch of Thunder Bluff taurens helped Baine to escape;
-Thudner Bluff temporary leaders declared the war to Sylvanas;
-Thunder Bluff people somehow else have compromised themselves while Baine was prisoned.

All these things should have happened so Thrall assumption would make sense. Instead he just told us that next content will be Raid of Thunder Bluff or Warfront of Thunder Bluff because thats what Blizzard planned to do, not because the story.

What we got in the recent cinematic was another example of bad writing to force the plot in the direction that Blizzard want.

And if Thunder Bluff isn't actually attacked what do you say then? The majority of your rant is based on the assumption Thunder Bluff actually gets attacked. Then, yes, they are using obvious lines to point toward next act. If not, you are just ranting on a thread about nothing and one single line in a cinematic.

[Powerogue]

I'm not sure you understand the purpose of quotation. Because literally none of these quotes say what you claimed earlier. Especially since you quote things like Edge of War to prove how she still views the Forsaken as tools, only to then spread your usual fanfiction about the events of Before the Storm. The same Before the Storm in which Sylvanas refers to the Forsaken simply as her people and thinks about how she wants to save them.

100% of them do. You demanded examples of Sylvanas wanting to:
-crush hope
-discard honor
-have an army of unquestioning followers to use as tools, even if she has to zombify them to do so

As I stated were her goals. They are.

And there's no fanfiction in quoting Before The Storm verbatim. Unless you're writing off everything made by one of the head writers as "fanfiction", in which case I don't know what to tell you.

So, tying back to the first post I made on the topic, yes I absolutely think it's within Sylvanas's current character motivations to burn Thunder Bluff, with everyone inside.

She's done worse.

From my Alliance player's perspective, Baine sticking his neck out to do the right thing is the only reason why I won't just sit there with marshmallows on a stick watching the Horde burn. One city at a time. It'd be two down, one to go.

(Okay fine one and a half to go, but no one cares about Silvermoon. Not even the blood elves, leaving it all half-ruined for this long.)

[matrix123mko]

Option 4 - there are still people who don't hate sylvanas and don't love boiking so blizz is going all out.

Don't say that to loud or you will be accused of war crimes.

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What makes me noxious is that I know we will have to help the Horde rebellion defend Thunder Bluff, when in reality what we should be doing is abandoning the Horde rebellion to their fate (fuck Saurfang, he was the one who orchestrated the War of Thorns, and fuck Thrall for making Garrosh Warchief) and marching on Orgrimmar while the Horde loyalists are busy attacking Thunder Bluff.

But No, we have to help the Horde rebellion and set aside our justified thirst for vengeance. AGAIN.

From Horde perspective you were forced to save Jaina and then free Baine. No faction can have their thirst sated in Golden's kingdom.

[Swnem]

There are no temporary Tauren leaders. Baine is it, and the Tauren are with him. Therefore, Sylvanas will retaliate.

How this isn't clear is beyond me. Obviously, you still don't get how Sylvanas operates.