[EU] Brexit negotiations at a standstill

[Noradin]

There's no reason for any one to accept you, given German's recent bullying of smaller nations in Europe and the significant presence of neo-nazis in government.

Can you give examples for that bullying?
If you are thinking of Greece, for example, remember that Germany was pushing for a more moderate approach, it was the smaller Nordic Countries that wanted strict rules.

[Slant]

There's nothing unfair about that. Germany attempted to destroy Europe and attempted genocide. Many British people alive today lost blood relatives to German warmongering. There's no reason for any one to accept you, given German's recent bullying of smaller nations in Europe and the significant presence of neo-nazis in government.

I did not vote for Brexit but Germany did alienate a lot of people who might have otherwise voted to remain.

@Northern Goblin This is what I mean. This is the talk we have to deal with on a permanent basis. Have done so for 80 years. So cry me a river...

[Slant]

Can you give examples for that bullying?
If you are thinking of Greece, for example, remember that Germany was pushing for a more moderate approach, it was the smaller Nordic Countries that wanted strict rules.

While James Cameron distanced himself from helping Greece altogether, let's not forget that.

[Slant]

I mean we could start talking about colonial Britain. Should we start with the Opium wars?

We could, but I don't really care a lot about colonial Britain except when some people pretend the Empire still exists...

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I don't accept that at all. The Germans made a lot out of the fact that they were giving Greece money-they never mentioned the fact that the EU benefits their economy enormously, because the low value of the euro relative to the Mark means they can have both a strong economy and manufacturing industry. The flipside is that countries like Greece in trouble cannot get out of their situation by devaluation.

For that imbalance to exist countries like Germany just need to hand over cash to the smaller nations and be quiet and stop act like they are doing Greece or whoever a big favour. They certainly should not get to dictate austerity policies to sovereign nations. I voted Remain but had I been Greek I'd have voted for Grexit without a second thought, it is disgusting the way they were treated. I cannot understand why the Greeks remain in Europe. The whole situation is probably unsustainable long-term.

Probably because they can't drag the country out of the continent to the paradise that is the Middle East. Geography not your strong suit, is it? :P

I know, cheap shot but it was worth it.

[Northern Goblin]

@Northern Goblin This is what I mean. This is the talk we have to deal with on a permanent basis. Have done so for 80 years. So cry me a river...

Are you really using a burner account of a perma banned ex poster to try and justify your point?

Anyway, Flare asked people to calm it down, and no one is likely to shift from their stance on generalisations, so I see little reason to continue what is essentially two people arguing on opposite sides of a rather thick wall.

Today's amendment vote seems to be stirring up government rebels in order to halt any future MP proroguing. Should be a good indicator of how many people in Westminster still want to prevent no deal from occurring.

[Noradin]

I don't accept that at all. The Germans made a lot out of the fact that they were giving Greece money-they never mentioned the fact that the EU benefits their economy enormously, because the low value of the euro relative to the Mark means they can have both a strong economy and manufacturing industry. The flipside is that countries like Greece in trouble cannot get out of their situation by devaluation.

For that imbalance to exist countries like Germany just need to hand over cash to the smaller nations and be quiet and stop act like they are doing Greece or whoever a big favour. They certainly should not get to dictate austerity policies to sovereign nations. I voted Remain but had I been Greek I'd have voted for Grexit without a second thought, it is disgusting the way they were treated. I cannot understand why the Greeks remain in Europe. The whole situation is probably unsustainable long-term.

Even before the Euro those countries choose to peg their currencies to the DM, and the Germans would have rather kept their own currency than adopted the Euro.

And Germany does in fact hand over cash without complaint, as do many other countries, they just rather their money wouldn't be used by corrupt politicans to buy votes instead of improving infrastructure. They also handed over lots of goods, that is how they got the money in the first place.

[Slant]

Are you really using a burner account of a perma banned ex poster to try and justify your point?

Anyway, Flare asked people to calm it down, and no one is likely to shift from their stance on generalisations, so I see little reason to continue what is essentially two people arguing on opposite sides of a rather thick wall.

Today's amendment vote seems to be stirring up government rebels in order to halt any future MP proroguing. Should be a good indicator of how many people in Westminster still want to prevent no deal from occurring.

"Perma" banned, lol. The point I'm making is that whoever that person is, he is representative of an overwhelmingly large number of British people that I meet outside of business contacts (who want my money and obviously would never mention the war). You should be well aware from my posting history that I sympathize with the Remainer side in the UK, but at the same time, I am affected by it and you'll have to live with me making general statements about the UK as it acts today. Not in a hypothetical situation. It is very much happening right now. It looks like you will have BoJo as the next PM, and unlike your optimistic view, I think from past experience it's safe to say he will continue the tradition of recent PMs and mess things up even more than they were before.

That's all I'm saying.

[Northern Goblin]

Technically post recess Parliament is in a new sitting. So they could vote once more on 2nd ref, and then if that passes seeking an extension from the 27 to hold it, with a resolution this time that the referendum is infact binding and not advisory.

Alternatively they could push to revoke A50 unilaterally if no such extension is offered, but as vdL said yesterday, she is open to extension if there is reason for it.

There are other options open to Parliament, but having the actual time to debate it is the first step.

[Slant]

What would the game plan be though? So say the Parliament does get to act, what would they do with that? Require BoJo to ask for an extension? That's just not a solution for anyone.

Anyway some other interesting news:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-b...KCN1UD1EK?il=0
Possible no confidence vote for Corbyn because of the claims on anti-semitism (let's see how fast the burner can get back)

But more importantly: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-b...-idUSKCN1UD0Z8
So we may be seeing the UK enter recession.

Nothing, because as we have seen the last time, while it is easy to initiate destructive votes and be against something, Parliament is quite unable to form a constructive vote and be for something with a majority that could initiate legislation (aka, action).

The UK needs to come up with a Parliamentary decision to implement an alternative to either no-deal or the backstop. That is their conundrum. And I still haven't been able to come up with anything that's even remotely possible. Not just realistically possible, I can't even come up with a theoretical, political bullshit kind of possible.

[Slant]

Technically post recess Parliament is in a new sitting. So they could vote once more on 2nd ref, and then if that passes seeking an extension from the 27 to hold it, with a resolution this time that the referendum is infact binding and not advisory.

Alternatively they could push to revoke A50 unilaterally if no such extension is offered, but as vdL said yesterday, she is open to extension if there is reason for it.

There are other options open to Parliament, but having the actual time to debate it is the first step.

I think the times for extensions are gone. VdL doesn't decide if an extension is given or not. It's the Council. And last time the UK lucked itself into an extension already. Which was completely wasted so far. I think the only way for the UK to go the route you suggest is for them to just have that referendum in the time they have left. We're looking at a late September referendum. That way the UK doesn't need the cooperation of the EU.

If I was the UK, I would try to avoid asking any more favours of the EU. Certainly not based on a statement by a Commission President-elect that tried to impress people with her willingness to compromise if need be.

You're right, they need to have actual debate. Again. But they will fail, again, because the vast majority of them still has read neither A50, GATT or the Withdrawal Agreement. Or any of the... several dozen statements of the EU stating there would be no renegotiations.

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And they also have failed to support a People's Vote,

But what really was maddening was that back before the last extension when they were holding that series of votes, they had massive numbers of people abstaining. How on earth can you NOT have an opinion on the matter that monopolizes the politics of your country when you are a member of parliament? Not having an opinion is pretty much refusing to do your job. You should be fired for that.

In politics, I think abstaining is often used in lieu of "I'm against it but don't want to go against party lines, so I'll just not vote for it against my conscience."

[Northern Goblin]

Honestly, them not getting an extension would actually force them into action, especially all opposed to no deal who have sat on the fence for too long regarding a 2nd ref.

But if a 2nd ref is put through parliament, it will need an extension just to implement. Assuming all options aren't something that requires the fantasy of renegotiation, I can't see the 27 rejecting it, assuming whatever the result is is implimented within a short technical period after, whether it's leaving in one form or another, or remaining.

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As for abstaining, many party members voted against the party lines with almost no repercussions outside cabinet members. Party discipline was no excuse for abstaining in those votes because there was NO discipline anyway.

A lot of the abstains on the opposition benches was because Corbyn was playing fence sitter between leave and remain, trying to appeal to both and attracting none.

He's still attempting it despite the push of party members and MPs, but he has come out and said he'll support a 2nd ref in the face of certain no deal.

But he still prefers his deal that he thinks he can negotiate... on a withdrawl agreement not for negotiation.

[Noradin]

Alternatively they could push to revoke A50 unilaterally if no such extension is offered, but as vdL said yesterday, she is open to extension if there is reason for it.

She said "if there is a good reason for it.
That's an important difference.

[Northern Goblin]

She said "if there is a good reason for it.
That's an important difference.

It was implied in the phrasing. To give reason for something usually means you have a good one.

[Noradin]

It was implied in the phrasing. To give reason for something usually means you have a good one.

What is implied in that phrasing when a German uses it is that they don't think there will be a "good reason" and that the other side is wasting time.
It's like saying "I'll think about it"(which means "no").

[Pann]

MPs approve Benn/ Burt voted to approve the amendment 315 votes to 274. It looks like many in the government abstained.

[Northern Goblin]

Amendment A passes 315 to 274.

This amendment prevents proroguation of Parliament between the 8th of October and 18th of December.

Lords amendment now being voted on, this amendment states that the fortnightly reports on NI that passed in the Grieve amendment must be debated on within 5 days, thus making prorogation impossible.

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MPs approve Benn/ Burt voted to approve the amendment 315 votes to 274. It looks like many in the government abstained.

One government minister, Margot James, rebelled and resigned.

Many other ministers abstained.

[Pannonian]

Honestly, them not getting an extension would actually force them into action, especially all opposed to no deal who have sat on the fence for too long regarding a 2nd ref.

But if a 2nd ref is put through parliament, it will need an extension just to implement. Assuming all options aren't something that requires the fantasy of renegotiation, I can't see the 27 rejecting it, assuming whatever the result is is implimented within a short technical period after, whether it's leaving in one form or another, or remaining.

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A lot of the abstains on the opposition benches was because Corbyn was playing fence sitter between leave and remain, trying to appeal to both and attracting none.

He's still attempting it despite the push of party members and MPs, but he has come out and said he'll support a 2nd ref in the face of certain no deal.

But he still prefers his deal that he thinks he can negotiate... on a withdrawl agreement not for negotiation.

Well, there is another way:

Crash out, have a second referndum, and if its pro-EU, you can apply again, wait a few years, and if you play nice you can join the club again - this time without any rebates.

[Northern Goblin]

Well, there is another way:

Crash out, have a second referndum, and if its pro-EU, you can apply again, wait a few years, and if you play nice you can join the club again - this time without any rebates.

Or the veto, and likely have to accept the Euro.

There is no chance in hell that'd happen purely on the latter.

[Pannonian]

Or the veto, and likely have to accept the Euro.

There is no chance in hell that'd happen purely on the latter.

Well, then maybe join the US as another state and adopt the dollar. I don't really care. At this point i'm sick of british politics slowing down the EU and making a mess of the EU parliament. I'd have liked for you to remain, but if your politicans can't play nice -> good riddance. I'm more interested in advancing the EU than to pamper some entitled british politicians.


"Oh, we want the EU to change to cater to our every whims, but we wont accept anything the EU wants". Probably we are better of without these entitled choosing beggars.

[Northern Goblin]

Well, then maybe join the US as another state and adopt the dollar. I don't really care. At this point i'm sick of british politics slowing down the EU and making a mess of the EU parliament. I'd have liked for you to remain, but if your politicans can't play nice -> good riddance. I'm more interested in advancing the EU than to pamper some entitled british politicians.

Yeah we've heard this one before, you're welcome to read over the last few pages of debate.

Parliament votes against a government motion to reject the Lord's amendment by 315 to 273.

Which is a double negative, they're now voting on all remaining Lord's amendments to the bill.