Fate of Sylvanas Loyalist Players

[Darth-Piekus]

Sadly, I find it much more likely we get years of "Waifu did nothing wrong!"

The truly annoying part is those people cannot separate criticism from dislike. Pre-Cata, she was ok, albeit a typical Blizzard one note character. Post-Cata and now especially in BFA, she's become almost a parody of her old self. Pointing that out though is taken as "Ermagerd hater!" and any attempt at discussion breaks down.

Remains to be seen but that parody cannot continue for much more. It is toxic to the game and toxic to the healthy part of the playerbase. We can clearly see the results on the subscribers.

[Verdugo]

Remains to be seen but that parody cannot continue for much more. It is toxic to the game and toxic to the healthy part of the playerbase. We can clearly see the results on the subscribers.

Sylvanas, so evil that she is killing wow. Not because of shitty gameplay, class design or story. No, its because of Sylvanas that wow is losing subscribers. You all heard it right here.

[Mehrunes]

Sylvanas, so evil that she is killing wow. Not because of shitty gameplay, class design or story. No, its because of Sylvanas that wow is losing subscribers. You all heard it right here.

After all, most players play WoW for its story. It's because of how deep and consistent it is. It is known.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Remains to be seen but that parody cannot continue for much more. It is toxic to the game and toxic to the healthy part of the playerbase. We can clearly see the results on the subscribers.

so hilarious that this is almost worth quoting.

Sylvanas triggered you such to a degree you actually think she's the reason the game lost subscribers.

[Mehrunes]

so hilarious that this is almost worth quoting.

Sylvanas triggered you such to a degree you actually think she's the reason the game lost subscribers.

I mean, there are some parallels between that and your current sig.

[Feanoro]

Remains to be seen but that parody cannot continue for much more. It is toxic to the game and toxic to the healthy part of the playerbase. We can clearly see the results on the subscribers.

It'd almost be worth reading the posts below yours to see how much they prove your point about toxic fans turning people away.

[Verdugo]

It'd almost be worth reading the posts below yours to see how much they prove your point about toxic fans turning people away.

I honestly believe that shitty gameplay is a bigger reason for someone to unsubscribe rather than, you know, me bitching at someone on an unofficial forum.

[Mehrunes]

It'd almost be worth reading the posts below yours to see how much they prove your point about toxic fans turning people away.

But wouldn't that only prove that point if it drove you away? I mean, you can't know if it drove other people away, so you'd need to be the test subject. Alas, science requires sacrifices.

I honestly believe that shitty gameplay is a bigger reason for someone to unsubscribe rather than, you know, me bitching at someone on an unofficial forum.

What a preposterous idea you got here.

[Feanoro]

I honestly believe that shitty gameplay is a bigger reason for someone to unsubscribe rather than, you know, me bitching at someone on an unofficial forum.

Toxic people sure don't help matters in a social game, and that's more widespread than just this forum.

I could argue BFA's gameplay isn't much shittier than the last few expansions.

- Timeless Jungle Demon Naga Island? Check
- Dailies/WQs as the main content aside from RNG dungeon grinds? Check
- Shit tier story. Oh hell yes.
- Classes being a pale shadow of their preGC days? Check.
- Useless professions? Yep.
- Mandatory grinds that make the anti-Classic types laughable? Check

List could go on and on, but I don't see why BFA is so much worse than WoD or Legion. Same systems, recycled.

[Mehrunes]

Toxic people sure don't help matters in a social game, and that's more widespread than just this forum.

I could argue BFA's gameplay isn't much shittier than the last few expansions.

- Timeless Jungle Demon Naga Island? Check
- Dailies/WQs as the main content aside from RNG dungeon grinds? Check
- Shit tier story. Oh hell yes.
- Classes being a pale shadow of their preGC days? Check.
- Useless professions? Yep.
- Mandatory grinds that make the anti-Classic types laughable? Check

List could go on and on, but I don't see why BFA is so much worse than WoD or Legion. Same systems, recycled.

And you think recycling the same formula doesn't get stale and doesn't drive people away? Besides, the common argument is that BfA's take on Legion's systems like Artifacts is the much worse one. Same with Class design (which largely loops to the Artifacts, as removing the Artifact active abilities and not replacing them with anything was a rather detrimental choice). Also, why would mandatory grinds make anti-Classic types laughable?

[Friendlyimmolation]

It'd almost be worth reading the posts below yours to see how much they prove your point about toxic fans turning people away.

mocking an idea that Sylvanas is the reason WoW loses subscribers is hardly toxic. And if Sylvanas drives someone from wow, they were going to quit anyways soon enough because the level of thin-skin one would have to possess to get that worked up would be an achievement in itself.

[Melsiren]

Remains to be seen but that parody cannot continue for much more. It is toxic to the game and toxic to the healthy part of the playerbase. We can clearly see the results on the subscribers.

Please tell me about this "healthy" part of the playerbase.

[Mehrunes]

mocking an idea that Sylvanas is the reason WoW loses subscribers is hardly toxic. And if Sylvanas drives someone from wow, they were going to quit anyways soon enough because the level of thin-skin one would have to possess to get that worked up would be an achievement in itself.

Besides, if Sylvanas was driving people away, why now all of a sudden? Why wasn't she killing the subscriber count back in WotLK or Cata where she had much more screentime? Because @Feanoro for example claimed she already became not OK in Cata.

Please tell me about this "healthy" part of the playerbase.

Step one: peddle fanfiction day and night.
Step two: there's no step two, you've already achieved your goal.

[Melsiren]

mocking an idea that Sylvanas is the reason WoW loses subscribers is hardly toxic. And if Sylvanas drives someone from wow, they were going to quit anyways soon enough because the level of thin-skin one would have to possess to get that worked up would be an achievement in itself.

The notion is nothing short of absurd.

However feels before reals.

[Feanoro]

mocking an idea that Sylvanas is the reason WoW loses subscribers is hardly toxic. And if Sylvanas drives someone from wow, they were going to quit anyways soon enough because the level of thin-skin one would have to possess to get that worked up would be an achievement in itself.

Keep dodging the part about toxic fans and trying to push the problem onto the fictional character they obssess over.

[Mehrunes]

Keep dodging the part about toxic fans and trying to push the problem onto the fictional character they obssess over.

But @Friendlyimmolation didn't dodge it. You wondered (or, more accurately, hypothesized) that the posts under Darth-Piekus' one contained proof of Piekus' remarks about this toxic playerbase (because contesting fanfiction is pinnacle of toxicity). Friendly explicitly described what the content of those posts was and the very start of the post you just quoted here and said it's hardly toxic. There's no dodge here, the fans and the subject of their posts that you wondered about were addressed. But good try. Besides, let's not kid ourselves here. The very reason why those fans are labeled as toxic here in the first place is precisely because they "obsess" over Sylvanas (and, consequently, can easily contest fanfiction about her being peddled which is apparently the pinnacle of evil), because that's sinful for she is the boogeyman. You can't separate her from this.

[Powerogue]

Fucking amazing how Alliance fans twist everything to suit them.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/A_Warrior%27s_Death

I re-read it to make sure, like I always do before posting. She accuses him twice of total lies: that he's actively conspiring with his alliance friends. Even if Sylvanas had a rogue clinging to the roof of Saurfang's jail cell during Lost Honor, which we have no reason to think, we still know now that it just wasn't true. But we can discern that she's wanted to get rid of Saurfang since at least the War of Thorns with the Malfurion incident.

So I'd say we've got two main possibilities:

1) she's jumping to conclusions based on the evidence of SI:7 conspiring to release him from prison, and misspoke when Saurfang asked her what Sylvanas's orders were.
2) She was directly lied to just like the player was, Sylvanas saying that Saurfang had already completely defected to the Alliance and to look for the mud hut with the Alliance flags proudly sticking out of it.

By all accounts, when I did the quest, it looked like Saurfang and Zehkan were simply exactly what it looked like they were doing: living in the swamp. They set up bunk beds and everything to simply wait out the war. Defectors? Yes. Traitors? No.

Mark my words, Sylvanas will die from the consequences of her own actions. Her increasing justification of paranoia and cruelty will finally lead to backstabbing the wrong person: the player.

[MatthiasVonTzeskagrad]

Toxic people sure don't help matters in a social game, and that's more widespread than just this forum.

I could argue BFA's gameplay isn't much shittier than the last few expansions.

- Timeless Jungle Demon Naga Island? Check
- Dailies/WQs as the main content aside from RNG dungeon grinds? Check
- Shit tier story. Oh hell yes.
- Classes being a pale shadow of their preGC days? Check.
- Useless professions? Yep.
- Mandatory grinds that make the anti-Classic types laughable? Check

List could go on and on, but I don't see why BFA is so much worse than WoD or Legion. Same systems, recycled.

Well I personally found much more toxic attitudes in pvp, pve, and Sylvanas bashing. But specially on pvp and pve, perhaps you should focus much more on a lesser problem.

[Feanoro]

The very reason why those fans are labeled as toxic here in the first place is precisely because they "obsess" over Sylvanas (and, consequently, can easily contest fanfiction about her being peddled which is apparently the pinnacle of evil), because that's sinful for she is the boogeyman. You can't separate her from this.

And now playing the victim. Those fans are labelled toxic because they're hostile, rude, twist words, endlessly berate anyone who doesn't agree with them, use "clever" phrasing to avoid directly insulting people while dancing on the edge of doing so, and drag every discussion down to shitshow, because as you famously put it, you're "here to win arguments", not discuss the story in good faith. It doesn't matter that it's about Sylvanas. The problem is the behavior, not the topic. That's what's being dodged.

[Mehrunes]

https://wow.gamepedia.com/A_Warrior%27s_Death

I re-read it to make sure, like I always do before posting. She accuses him twice of total lies: that he's actively conspiring with his alliance friends. Even if Sylvanas had a rogue clinging to the roof of Saurfang's jail cell during Lost Honor, which we have no reason to think, we still know now that it just wasn't true. But we can discern that she's wanted to get rid of Saurfang since at least the War of Thorns with the Malfurion incident.

1. You're still pretending that your interpretation of what he said at Thunder Bluff is the only one in the world while an alternative one which is just as likely in light of there being no further commentary from Blizzard has been presented to you twice.

2. Sylvanas still couldn't have learned what Saurfang said at Thunder Bluff months before it has happened either way.

3. The fact you want people to believe you're totally reading (or re-reading even) the quests, books and whatnot you talk about then quote or link the relevant thing only for it to say something else than what you just said is really confusing. Because Lyana said he's accused of conspiring with humans, not with his Alliance friends. The Alliance friends part is mentioned much earlier in the dialogue, long before it came to the accusations.

4. Continuing the topic of accusations of conspiring with humans, we have to loop back to the part where neither Lyana nor Sylvanas could know Saurfang's dialogue from TB that was months into the future which, according to you (and your insistence that it's the only way to interpret said dialogue) shows he joined forces with Anduin only after rescuing Baine and somehow vindicates him (because it magics away all the other cases of treason he has committed until his confrontation with Lyana).

As such, they could only operate based on what they knew at the time. Which was that Saurfang's escape from Alliance prison, in which he deliberately stayed despite having an opportunity to escape by the Horde long before that, was assisted by SI:7. Which, lo and behold, constitutes evidence of him conspiring with humans. Or even your version of conspiring with his Alliance friends.

5. A minor thing to note, at least in comparison to the above, but the charge was that he has conspired with the humans. Past tense, no mention of anything even similar to the word "actively". One more case of your claims of re-reading things being rather questionable. Particularly given how you chose to put the actively conspiring in bold for emphasis.

6. Finally, nothing in that quest says that the accusation was made by Sylvanas herself. Lyana said her orders came from the Warchief herself. And what Saurfang was charged with by her does not constitute an order.