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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Gann Stonespire View Post
    Chronicles exists to give ammo to the "Daelin was right" crowd.
    Definitely not to make money by attempting to resolve their own contradictory lore, nope all a conspiracy by those damned Alliance players who just won't stop insisting on having content too. Come the fuck on. Do you actually, honestly believe we have any say whatsoever in the lore?
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  2. #82
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    2 things:

    He loved too much the horde.

    He trustes that the other races would commit in fight the war that the enemy start, and kill the ones that were killing you.

  3. #83
    Moderator Rozz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    I mean that's a hard line of argumentation to follow. A ''majority'' of Orcs didn't oppose him because they thought conflict with other Orcs was awesome, but because Garrosh had methodically worked to undermine the Horde's unity. It's telling that events like Theramore don't cause too much strife that we see (indeed Taurens are seen celebrating alongside Orcs post-facto) but ordering Vol'jin's death and occupying the Echo Isles triggers an outright uprising a patch later.

    And I don't remember many wars of extermination between clans on Draenor. Strife and raid for scant resources, certainly, but before the rise of the Horde the Orcs weren't much in a position to wage warfare on that scale.
    I'm not following your own argument here. The point is that Garrosh's brutish logic is inline with his orcish values, despite whatever drama happened between him, Thrall, the Horde, or on Draenor. He isn't suddenly non-orcish because he was was more extreme than Thrall, like how Garithos or Genn weren't suddenly 'less human' when they turned their backs on their allies.

    Edit: To make it more clear, I'm saying that Garrosh is perfectly orcish. He's still a horrible person, but orcish to a T. Azshara is also perfectly Night Elven, despite being a heinous woman. The characters are still true to the tropes of their race, despite being 'evil'/hated by others within it.
    Last edited by Rozz; 2019-07-22 at 04:57 AM.
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  4. #84
    Herald of the Titans TigTone's Avatar
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    Only thing wrong he did was let some of you live.

  5. #85
    Moderator Rozz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Given the basic resumption of the status quo insofar as Orgrimmar and the Orcs are during Vol'jin's tenure, we kind of do.

    Garrosh had the edge in the war until his antics caused his coalition within the Horde to fracture, turning his own people against him. This was the reason why Wrathion but his support behind Varian and the Alliance in the end - specifically "I thought Hellscream's victory was assured before he turned half his Horde against him. So I changed my allegiance."

    - - - Updated - - -



    That is pretty much what a schism is, if you ask me - there were many orcs who followed him willingly, and still more who did not. The fact that he couldn't maintain the loyalty of his own people speaks a good deal to his many failures. The Draenor clans also didn't really war with one another as a matter of course, at least not before the rise of the Horde and their corruption by the Legion - there were occasional disagreements, but they didn't prey on one another regularly.

    Thrall's opinions and ideals were mostly given to him by Drek'thar, who remembered the way of the life of the Orcs before their corruption and the rise of the Old Horde, and guided him in re-embracing the Shamanistic heritage of the Orcish clans. We see what the Draenor clans were like prior to their corruption in both "Rise of the Horde" and "Chronicle Vol. 2," and Thrall is ideologically closer to it than Garrosh himself ever was. It's worth noting that Garrosh grew up on Outland in a plague quarantine village inhabited by Orcs of many clans, and he never knew anything of the Orcs' social structure, heritage, or hierarchy prior to their reformation into the Horde. So, like Thrall, he is just as distant from the heritage of the Orcs as Thrall himself was (and appeared to lack the relationship with a role-model type figure).
    A schism doesn't redefine a race though. You're focusing on their political differences, while ignoring the orcish values that shaped both. The point is that no matter how different Thrall or Garrosh were, both perspectives came from aspects of orcish values/culture. Garrosh's methods aren't far off from how orcs are raised, generally to be brutishly strong and to conquer your enemies. Different clans handled this in different ways, but Garrosh was everything he was raised to be. In a sense, he's an ideal orc even more so than Thrall himself. In a society where the leader is determined by a public death match, I feel Garrosh held true to that part of his culture. Thrall and his group are the ones who stray away from those roots the most, due to their trauma/guilt and interactions on Azeroth.

    It doesn't matter to me if orcs disliked Garrosh's methods, like how there are orcs who disliked his father, Kargath, etc. None of the genocide, murder, enslavement, or even pillaging made them un-orcish. Those are all things part of their history and culture, things WoD showed they were plenty willing to do even without corruption. A few thousand orcs turning against Garrosh says more about Horde political strife, than him betraying his racial roots (especially when Thrall was the one who went on a journey to reconnect, not Garrosh who just wanted to prove himself like all orcs do).
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  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    The Siege of Orgrimmar was an invasion of the True Horde's stronghold, so yes, most of the Orcs within Ogrimmar as this point were Garrosh's loyalists and sycophants.
    Incorrect, they were class trainers, NPCs, quest givers, shopkeepers and other NPCs the player had worked with since WoW's launch back in 2004.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    the rest threw their support behind Vol'jin.
    Except all those who didn't including Saurfang's lieutenant, the class trainers, the orc auctioneers the named Grunts, ETC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Rehgar,
    Not even mentioned in that expansion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Drek'thar
    No mention either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Draka
    What this makes no sense. Draka is Thrall's dead mother or alternatively Drek'thar's wolf. Either way, she was dead or a non sentient wolf, both unmentioned and not applicable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Ariok
    Just like all the others, he wasn't mentioned in that expansion.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I don't think so - one bad apple doesn't really spoil the bunch.
    The writers specifically made 7/10 classes opposing the Draenei genocide to 6/11 clans supporting the Draenei genocide. In other words, Chronicles retconned it so the vast majority of uncorrupted orcs were more in line with Garrosh, which was my whole point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Ritually torturing and slaughtering all their prisoners to appease the Elements (driven out of whack by Gul'dan and the Legion's doings) would be the worst of their excesses in my view. They weren't great before Gul'dan got his hooks into them, Gul'dan just made it worse.
    Yet selling Draenei into slavery "worse then death" definitely counts as one of the worst of their excesses. Its all something Chronicles added to the story for no reason.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Yes, and? Gul'dan used the existing animosity between the Bladewind and Draenei (which prior to his manipulations was still minor in the Draenei's eyes) to create an incident to supposedly highlight how bad the Draenei actually were. It's quite possible some in the remaining Bladewinds (and we know some of them, such as Garona, survived Gul'dan attempts to annihilate them) saw how they were manipulated and spoke out against Gul'dan and the war because of it. This isn't some kind of massive retcon or unexplainable circumstance.
    It is very much a retcon, note Ner'zhul's words here. “It would be one thing if these opposing voices belonged to those of no consequence"

    If Bladewind was as decimated as in Chronicles stated, they would be of "no consequence" just as the Whiteclaw Clan was after its defeat, its members dismissed as "clanless nothings" by Ner'zhul. That Garona left for another clan after the destruction of the clan and its village, shows the Bladewind were finished.

    Ner'zhul also says this line early in the Draenei genocide, contrast with Chronicles lore where the Bladewind clan had taken part for most of the genocide from the beginning.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by prwraith View Post
    I think they're both pretty guilty of being entirely lacking in depth tbh.

    I don't think the horde is against an expansionist leader, I think they're against an expansionist leader who has no point. Like for what reason was garrosh expanding? Did orgrimmar lack resources? Same with sylvanas, she has as of yet 0 motivation.

    The ultimate villain of wow isn't the old gods or the void lords, it's the writers haha.
    Yes, actually. Orgrimmar was barren and already reliant on night elven and human exports to sustain its people prior to the Cataclysm. Cataclysm pushed that famine over the edge and after the night elves cut exports after a false flag attack by the Twilight's Hammer Garrosh followed up on the war Varian had declared in Wrath to seize land and feed his people. It also ties into Thrall failing to inculcate guilt in the younger orcs, Garrosh's popularity in Northrend and the impression that the orcs were carrying the other races for little return. Check out Heart of War on the site it's pretty good.

    They did fuck up said motive in at least two instances, but Mists in general holds up better in terms of character motivation. Sylvanas has no delineated motive except lowering her score on the karma meter in BFA, especially when the society she ran was totally retconned and the grounds of its initial founding were retroactively made wrong.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2019-07-22 at 07:39 AM.
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  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Yes, actually. Orgrimmar was barren and already reliant on night elven and human exports to sustain its people prior to the Cataclysm. Cataclysm pushed that famine over the edge and after the night elves cut exports after a false flag attack by the Twilight's Hammer Garrosh followed up on the war Varian had declared in Wrath to seize land and feed his people. It also ties into Thrall failing to inculcate guilt in the younger orcs, Garrosh's popularity in Northrend and the impression that the orcs were carrying the other races for little return. Check out Heart of War on the site it's pretty good.

    They did fuck up said motive in at least two instances, but Mists in general holds up better in terms of character motivation. Sylvanas has no delineated motive except lowering her score on the karma meter in BFA, especially when the society she ran was totally retconned and the grounds of its initial founding were retroactively made wrong.
    Where did you get all that information from though? I feel like if this kind of stuff was conveyed correctly in game, ie through like the opening cataclysm patch cinematic etc. People would have bought into garrosh a lot more than they did. He would have actually garnered sympathy for trying to protect his race. As it is, with his in game portrayal he just comes off as a murderous asshole lol.

  9. #89
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prwraith View Post
    Where did you get all that information from though? I feel like if this kind of stuff was conveyed correctly in game, ie through like the opening cataclysm patch cinematic etc. People would have bought into garrosh a lot more than they did. He would have actually garnered sympathy for trying to protect his race. As it is, with his in game portrayal he just comes off as a murderous asshole lol.
    Garrosh Shortstory and the shattering book i believe

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    He didn't get Zaela pregnant that's what he did wrong.
    Blizz can always retcon that and suddenly a young orc pops up looking much like them in a few years. After all omitting details and later filling the blanks as they see fit, is blizz standard procedure after all, just look at the broken isles. They created entire societies out of thin air.

  11. #91
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rozz View Post
    A schism doesn't redefine a race though. You're focusing on their political differences, while ignoring the orcish values that shaped both. The point is that no matter how different Thrall or Garrosh were, both perspectives came from aspects of orcish values/culture. Garrosh's methods aren't far off from how orcs are raised, generally to be brutishly strong and to conquer your enemies. Different clans handled this in different ways, but Garrosh was everything he was raised to be. In a sense, he's an ideal orc even more so than Thrall himself. In a society where the leader is determined by a public death match, I feel Garrosh held true to that part of his culture. Thrall and his group are the ones who stray away from those roots the most, due to their trauma/guilt and interactions on Azeroth.
    A schism certainly can redefine a race if its deep enough. The rise of the Old Horde on Draenor shows that, the entire race of Orcs being corrupted by the Legion and losing their hold on their heritage and even their very world in the process, save for the Frostwolves who held tight to said heritage. But I think the thread here is that neither Garrosh nor Thrall were raised in a traditional Orcish context - Garrosh was raised in a multicultural village comprised of different clans headed by a de facto chieftain who was herself a healer and not a warrior - his Warsong father completely absent for the majority of his life. Thrall was essentially raised by no one in bondage for most of his life, a prisoner of Blackmoore and trained as a gladiator for his amusement (and for his further plans of conquest). Garrosh and Thrall had the same kind of formative event in their lives, as well - Thrall finding and learning from Drek'thar and Garrosh encountering Thrall and learning his father wasn't a complete monster. Do you really think the "ideal Orc" is the moping, despondent Garrosh we find in TBC? That's how he spent the majority of his life in Garadar, and I highly doubt that past just washes away with Thrall showing up to tell him of his father's heroism in the Third War.

    Thrall has issues, there's no doubt about that - but if you wanted to compare how each upheld the heritage of their people I would call it for Thrall by a country mile. Garrosh's Dark Shaman twisted and perverted the Elements for miles around Orgrimmar just as a gambit to defeat Thrall, this from someone whose culture was supposed to include a reverence for the Elements. He trucked with the same kind of dark powers which had cost the Orcs everything back on Draenor. Garrosh understood only little of what it was to be an Orc, and it was that failure to understand his own culture (and what the Orcs had become on Azeroth) that led to his downfall.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rozz View Post
    It doesn't matter to me if orcs disliked Garrosh's methods, like how there are orcs who disliked his father, Kargath, etc. None of the genocide, murder, enslavement, or even pillaging made them un-orcish. Those are all things part of their history and culture, things WoD showed they were plenty willing to do even without corruption. A few thousand orcs turning against Garrosh says more about Horde political strife, than him betraying his racial roots (especially when Thrall was the one who went on a journey to reconnect, not Garrosh who just wanted to prove himself like all orcs do).
    Genocide, murder, enslavement, and pillaging aren't Orcish values or even unique to Orcs. The Orcs as a people were always vulnerable to external manipulation - and it was the same equation that set them up for atrocities in both the primary and WoD continuities. In WoD, Garrosh manipulates a version of his own father to get what he wants from him, showing him a warped version of primary events to convince him of the necessity of war - and in the primary timeline Gul'dan and Kil'jaeden see to it that the Orcs see the Draenei as a vast threat to their very survival. And I think it also needs to be underlined that if the majority of your people turn against a leader due to their actions, it stands to reason that said leader doesn't represent them very well. Call it culture or politics - there's often not much of a difference, what we believe in a cultural sense has a strong impact on what we espouse politically speaking.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  12. #92
    he put his faith in a Horde that didn't do the same for him...
    No sense crying over spilt beer, unless you're drunk...

  13. #93
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gann Stonespire View Post
    Incorrect, they were class trainers, NPCs, quest givers, shopkeepers and other NPCs the player had worked with since WoW's launch back in 2004.
    And most of them gang-pressed into service by Garrosh's Kor'kron overseers, yes. Also don't forget the purged Cleft of Shadow with the corpses of renegade Orcs hanging from the ceilings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gann Stonespire View Post
    Except all those who didn't including Saurfang's lieutenant, the class trainers, the orc auctioneers the named Grunts, ETC.
    Which we know to be a minority of the Orcs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gann Stonespire View Post
    Not even mentioned in that expansion.
    He shows up in "War Crimes."

    Quote Originally Posted by Gann Stonespire View Post
    No mention either.
    His refusal to aid Garrosh had already occurred in Cata.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gann Stonespire View Post
    What this makes no sense. Draka is Thrall's dead mother or alternatively Drek'thar's wolf. Either way, she was dead or a non sentient wolf, both unmentioned and not applicable.
    Sorry, Aggra not Draka.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gann Stonespire View Post
    Just like all the others, he wasn't mentioned in that expansion.
    He's Eitrigg's son and serves Vol'jin in WoD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gann Stonespire View Post
    The writers specifically made 7/10 classes opposing the Draenei genocide to 6/11 clans supporting the Draenei genocide. In other words, Chronicles retconned it so the vast majority of uncorrupted orcs were more in line with Garrosh, which was my whole point.
    That's not a "vast majority," that's just 54% - that's a slight majority. I think "Chronicles" made the rise of the Old Horde more realistic in that sense, because with 70% opposition it seems unlikely Ner'zhul's reforms could've ever passed. And that doesn't even account for the population disparity between the various clans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gann Stonespire View Post
    It is very much a retcon, note Ner'zhul's words here. “It would be one thing if these opposing voices belonged to those of no consequence"

    If Bladewind was as decimated as in Chronicles stated, they would be of "no consequence" just as the Whiteclaw Clan was after its defeat, its members dismissed as "clanless nothings" by Ner'zhul. That Garona left for another clan after the destruction of the clan and its village, shows the Bladewind were finished.

    Ner'zhul also says this line early in the Draenei genocide, contrast with Chronicles lore where the Bladewind clan had taken part for most of the genocide from the beginning.
    Yes, it is a retcon, but it changes almost nothing. You're basically trying to say that one Orcish clan being altered to appear non-good is somehow a complete and utter twisting of the Orcish race in general - I don't think that's the case. Basically the Bladewind clan was given some actual lore (prior to "Chronicle Vol. 2" we knew absolutely nothing of them) which changes how they were perceived based on the only thing we knew about them prior, e.g. that they opposed Ner'zhul's and Gul'dan's reforms and war footing. Even if we discount the Bladewinds, as said above, that's not a huge change - one bad clan does not equate to the Orcs being universally evil or some such.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  14. #94
    Yes. He turned on Horde, he should not have done that.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Eggroll View Post
    I was angry because they destroyed my favorite race. And by the looks of it, will never have to pay the price for it. Does that count, too?
    Eh? Did you miss the memo that Tyrande got her revenge and stuff? The Horde has already paid for what it did, Saurfang is very sad and sorry, isn't it enough? It's enough during the first two genocides he took part in, why shouldn't it be enough this time around? :P

  16. #96
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Do we know why the Orcs turned on Garrosh?
    I would imagine because Garrosh started relying more and more on tactics that the Horde viewed as insensitive to outright monstrous. Cracks started showing up when Garrosh imported intelligent beasts from Northrend by holding their children hostage, something a few in the Horde (including the Orcs) began to question the ethics of. Then Garrosh had Dark Shaman suborning the Elements during the battle against Northwatch, leading to an outcry from many Orcish Shaman especially in light of the Cataclysm being ongoing at the time. The use of the Mana-Bomb at Theramore was seen as a distinctly non-Orcish gambit - tantamount to using poison or sneaking into a camp at the dead of night to slit throats. Orcs place a premium on honorable decorum in combat, fighting their enemies face to face so to speak. Not to mention that Garrosh's feint unnecessarily cost the lives of many of his own just to preserve the illusion that would maximize the Alliance body-count due to the bomb.

    Then there was Garrosh's attempts to weaponize the Sha, leading to the corruption of his own soldiers who had to be put down as they rampaged throughout the Sanctum of the Stars. The litany of offenses and behaviors went on and on until the tainting of the Valley of Eternal Blossoms, in which Garrosh put his full stock behind using the power of Y'Shaarj, and this after the world had just been saved from a being corrupted by the power of the Old Gods (the same power Garrosh was now indulging in). I can see pretty easily how Garrosh slowly and surely turned almost everyone against him.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by prwraith View Post
    Where did you get all that information from though? I feel like if this kind of stuff was conveyed correctly in game, ie through like the opening cataclysm patch cinematic etc. People would have bought into garrosh a lot more than they did. He would have actually garnered sympathy for trying to protect his race. As it is, with his in game portrayal he just comes off as a murderous asshole lol.
    The bits about the nelves and trade are in the Shattering book, but the short story that gets his character and motive across is Heart of War:
    http://media.blizzard.com/wow/lore/p...rrosh-enUS.pdf

    If you want a glimpse at how the average orc considered things in Wrath, there's a very short but pretty solid story called Glory:
    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Glory_(short_story)

    Bits of this are communicated as well, but in a more blustery way. Where Garrosh breaks character in my view is when he employs Forsaken, Blight and warlocks at the start of Pandaria despite hating all three and acting against them later and the whole malarky about the Theramore survivors in Org.

    As for how Garrosh lost the orcs @Nymrohd, given that they support the same expansionist policy except first slightly more successful and later completely falling apart in BFA, we can safely assume it's not because they disagreed with war. Maybe it's because of the Dark Horde remnants he recruited to a lesser extent, the shamanism possibly and his policy on the other races maybe. We know he was still soundly popular at the end of ToW. It's hard to piece together because the whole 'minority of orcs' bit is a retcon done as damage control after Mists and was never in evidence in the expansion proper, given how we cut through basically the entire extended orc cast except Thrall and Sadfang in that one.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2019-07-22 at 12:10 PM.
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  18. #98
    Moderator Rozz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    snip
    I understand what you're saying, but I'll still have to disagree on my main point. Orcish culture is a violent one that promotes a warrior mentality. I'm not saying that's all there is but it would be wrong to deny this strong aspect of their people. They aren't 'peaceful' by other race's standards and don't hesitate to wipe out their enemies. We can't forget that the Iron Horde was trying to wipe out every orc and clan that didn't join hands with them. No matter what Garrosh said, that didn't force them to do a cultural purge on their own race to make sure everyone had "similar ideals". They chose to do that, were largely fine with it, and the clan neighboring the Frostwolves was itching for it.

    I don't view SoO as a deep enough political schism to redefine orcish culture, because it wasn't about that nor did it go in that direction. Before and after SoO, orcs still wish for glorious battle and honorable death. Before and after SoO they value strength and power. The same orcs that sided against Garrosh, now side with Sylvanas in BfA ("will of the people" and all). Even before Baine defecting, orcs didn't mind the massacre lead on the Kul'Tirans nor did they complain about the tree. Orcs played a major hand in many of the atrocities the Alliance are reeling from now, that were just as bad if not worse than MoP. So no, I don't think there was a schism that pushed the entire race towards Thrall's personal ideologies. Garrosh wasn't abandoned by his people because he was a horrible orc, he was abandoned because he was a jackass. He's incredibly orcish in everything he does, despite his personal extremes. You could even just say he took orcish war customs to the extreme, rather than abandoning them out right. To imply that Garrosh betrayed being 'orcish' implies that his following weren't orcish themselves, when they were orcish extremist that looked down on anything outside their warrior customs. Showing the worse of something doesn't suddenly mean it isn't a part of it. And that part still shows today, as the Alliance know when orcish troops chose to impale villagers to buildings of their own will.

    Now don't think I'm saying that orcs are evil murderers, because that isn't true. I'm saying that even those such as Garrosh still fit within the definition of an orc and are true to the violent aspects of their heritage.
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  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Narwhalosh Whalescream View Post
    He was a honorable and just warchief, he lived as a true orc should, axe in hand on the battlefield. His expansionist policies were for the greater good, by aggressively expanding so that the horde could secure the resources and materials for their war machine and living.
    Also he looked really badass with his warsong tattoos, his fathers axe gorehowl, wields a freaking trophy on his shoulders and shit.
    Um, everything. He did everything wrong.

  20. #100
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rozz View Post
    I understand what you're saying, but I'll still have to disagree on my main point. Orcish culture is a violent one that promotes a warrior mentality. I'm not saying that's all there is but it would be wrong to deny this strong aspect of their people. They aren't 'peaceful' by other race's standards and don't hesitate to wipe out their enemies. We can't forget that the Iron Horde was trying to wipe out every orc and clan that didn't join hands with them. No matter what Garrosh said, that didn't force them to do a cultural purge on their own race to make sure everyone had "similar ideals". They chose to do that, were largely fine with it, and the clan neighboring the Frostwolves was itching for it.
    I don't disagree with the notion that Orcish culture is a warrior one, or even a violent one (Draenor was a violent world that gave rise to violent peoples), but what I am saying is that Garrosh was not the ideal mold for this kind of culture. Warrior culture does not need to distill down into preening self-aggrandizement as Garrosh displayed with his continual quest to try to make a name for himself (and in so doing further redeem himself as his legacy as a Hellscream). Durotan and the Frostwolves show another side to the Orcish coin - a martial philosophy built on fraternal protectionism and the strength of unity. Orcs espouse the edicts of their culture in many ways, and even the clan structure itself betrays multiple facets of how the Orcs approach their own culture. The Frostwolves through fraternal unity, the Warsong through conquest, the Shadowmoon through spiritual understanding of their world, the Bonechewers through chaos, the Bleeding Hollow through mysticism, etc. etc. Garrosh might indeed be said to represent the Warsong approach to the Orcish ideal, but the Warsong clan and its ideals don't represent all Orcs - they only represent the Warsong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rozz View Post
    I don't view SoO as a deep enough political schism to redefine orcish culture, because it wasn't about that nor did it go in that direction. Before and after SoO, orcs still wish for glorious battle and honorable death. Before and after SoO they value strength and power. The same orcs that sided against Garrosh, now side with Sylvanas in BfA ("will of the people" and all). Even before Baine defecting, orcs didn't mind the massacre lead on the Kul'Tirans nor did they complain about the tree. Orcs played a major hand in many of the atrocities the Alliance are reeling from now, that were just as bad if not worse than MoP. So no, I don't think there was a schism that pushed the entire race towards Thrall's personal ideologies. Garrosh wasn't abandoned by his people because he was a horrible orc, he was abandoned because he was a jackass. He's incredibly orcish in everything he does, despite his personal extremes. You could even just say he took orcish war customs to the extreme, rather than abandoning them out right. To imply that Garrosh betrayed being 'orcish' implies that his following weren't orcish themselves, when they were orcish extremist that looked down on anything outside their warrior customs. Showing the worse of something doesn't suddenly mean it isn't a part of it. And that part still shows today, as the Alliance know when orcish troops chose to impale villagers to buildings of their own will.
    SoO alone, no. But I think Vol'jin Insurrection is itself a pretty seminal moment in Orcish history. The context in BfA and MoP are quite different, however; the stakes for Sylvanas' war against the Alliance are much higher for the Horde now than they ever were back in MoP. We've also been shown multiple examples of reticence when it comes to the War of Thorns and Teldrassil - the Orcs didn't come right out and decry, as they'd been convinced of its necessity by both Sylvanas and Saurfang, but you see precious little celebration of it either. I think there's some truth that both Thrall and Garrosh represent extremes of the Orcish ideal, although I would say with confidence that Garrosh's extreme ended further off the mark than Thrall's extreme. The truth of the Orcish people is somewhere in the middle of a warmongering Garrosh intent on conquest and a peace-loving Thrall desiring a return to reverence for the natural world. A single point seldom ever represents the truth of a whole - the same is true of Garrosh, of Thrall, and of the Orcs in general. In that sense, it remains true that Garrosh didn't represent so well what it was to be an Orc - he represented only one version of Orcishness, one that made him be seen as a jackass, and it cost him the loyalty of all those who weren't so close to his extreme on the scale.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rozz View Post
    Now don't think I'm saying that orcs are evil murderers, because that isn't true. I'm saying that even those such as Garrosh still fit within the definition of an orc and are true to the violent aspects of their heritage.
    That's pretty much true of all cultures in the Warcraft universe. I'm not implying Garrosh somehow surrendered his Orcishness (although that probably is true when he became an Old God-related abomination), I am saying that Garrosh is pretty far from the "ideal Orc," a position which should by default represent the majority of his own people.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

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