Mega-Thread: Trump Focused Discussion

[Edge-]

He is wrong.

No, wrong is when you guess what the 63rd prime number is and you guess wrong.

Wrong is not when you literally make up something that's not happening. That's called a lie. Especially when you repeat said falsehood repeatedly, angrily arguing that anyone arguing otherwise is "FAKE NEWS" when in reality they're correct.

But it is not his fault the money has not been allocated for the whole wall.

It is. Democrats offered at one point, he didn't want to accept the terms.

Isn't he the master negotiator? The master dealmaker? Wasn't this his whole campaign? Why can't he make deals in his benefit?

He already tried abusing the national emergency status and was slapped down.

[Ghostpanther]

No, wrong is when you guess what the 63rd prime number is and you guess wrong.

Wrong is not when you literally make up something that's not happening. That's called a lie. Especially when you repeat said falsehood repeatedly, angrily arguing that anyone arguing otherwise is "FAKE NEWS" when in reality they're correct.



It is. Democrats offered at one point, he didn't want to accept the terms.

Isn't he the master negotiator? The master dealmaker? Wasn't this his whole campaign? Why can't he make deals in his benefit?

He already tried abusing the national emergency status and was slapped down.

Or you could look at it as something which he sees it as part of it has been built. But leaves out the details. As some new walls have been built, but no additional walls. Just replacing/upgrading/repairing existing ones. Is it a lie or a exaggeration? Could easily be ether. But all politicians lie or exaggerate to some degree.

Look at Obama and his famous lie or exaggeration," If you like your doctor, you can keep them.If you like your insurance plan, you can keep it." Some defend him and say he was not lying, but just did not know the truth of what would happen. I think he knew. If you supported him, then maybe you convinced yourself he was not lying, but was not being accurate. Funny how things perceived, depends on what one's perception is.

[DarkTZeratul]

Or you could look at it as something which he sees it as part of it has been built.

So he's not lying, he's incompetent.

But leaves out the details. As some new walls have been built, but no additional walls. Just replacing/upgrading/repairing existing ones. Is it a lie or a exaggeration? Could easily be ether. But all politicians lie or exaggerate to some degree.

Trump explicitly said new wall was being built and not just repairs and upgrades to existing walls. That was a lie.

Look at Obama and his famous lie or exaggeration," If you like your doctor, you can keep them.If you like your insurance plan, you can keep it." Some defend him and say he was not lying, but just did not know the truth of what would happen. I think he knew. If you supported him, then maybe you convinced yourself he was not lying, but was not being accurate. Funny how things perceived, depends on what one's perception is.

The most charitable explanation is that he was saying that nothing in the ACA that would prevent you from keeping your doctor or your plan. I wouldn't call it a lie necessarily, but there's no getting around the fact that he was making an promise he had no way of keeping because he couldn't prevent the insurance companies from changing their plans. Still, I wouldn't put making promises that are not in your power to keep on the same level as explicit falsehoods.

[Edge-]

Or you could look at it as something which he sees it as part of it has been built. But leaves out the details.

Yes, generally when you're leaving out "the details" intentionally, it's to cover something up. Like the fact that "THE WALL" wasn't actually being built despite the dozens of times he's said it was.

As some new walls have been built, but no additional walls. Just replacing/upgrading/repairing existing ones.

None of which were his "THE WALL", making his statements objectively false.

Is it a lie or a exaggeration? Could easily be ether. But all politicians lie or exaggerate to some degree.

It's a lie. An exaggeration would be, "We've repaired and improved so much wall you wouldn't believe!", because that's taking something actually happening and making it out to be more than it is.

It's a lie when you're saying something that's not happening, is happening.

Look at Obama and his famous lie or exaggeration," If you like your doctor, you can keep them.If you like your insurance plan, you can keep it." Some defend him and say he was not lying, but just did not know the truth of what would happen.

Hey, I'm consistent. That was a bullshit lie then, it is now, and he shouldn't have said it. He was wrong to do so.

"But Obama" isn't a defense, that's a poor excuse.

If you supported him, then maybe you convinced yourself he was not lying, but was not being accurate. Funny how things perceived, depends on what one's perception is.

Perception doesn't make reality. Facts make reality.

[Blur4stuff]

There will be no wall along the entire border. Even if you had a majority of both republicans and democrats on board with a wall, it still wouldn't get built for decades. Serious construction wouldn't even start for years, if ever depending on lawsuits by property owners, native tribes, and a host of other parties.

It's not going to happen. It was a bullshit promise that Trump had no way to deliver on. Just like his promise on healthcare. And then there's the little problem of a wall being 100% pointless and a waste of resources.

Trump supporters who voted for him based on this wall promise are going to have to accept reality. No amount of right wing propaganda spread around on facebook is going to make a wall magically appear.

[D Luniz]

Awesome. Trump just lied about a billion people.

in two nuclear armed states that are in a 1960's style Cold War with each other
...I feel like there should be more of a slap and "no" on this

[Edge-]

There will be no wall along the entire border. Even if you had a majority of both republicans and democrats on board with a wall, it still wouldn't get built for decades. Serious construction wouldn't even start for years, if ever depending on lawsuits by property owners, native tribes, and a host of other parties.

It's not going to happen. It was a bullshit promise that Trump had no way to deliver on. Just like his promise on healthcare. And then there's the little problem of a wall being 100% pointless and a waste of resources.

Trump supporters who voted for him based on this wall promise are going to have to accept reality. No amount of right wing propaganda spread around on facebook is going to make a wall magically appear.

I mean, there's not even anything in place to begin with.

Have they sorted land issues already?

What are the environmental impact studies?

The studies on the impact to trade?

How about testimony from border security experts and other experts on related issues?

What's the cost-benefit analysis of said wall?

This is not a serious proposal and these are not serious people. If they were serious, they'd have long-since already gone through the motions in preparation so that they could start accepting bids and granting contracts as soon as the money is approved.

As-is, no matter what they try to do to get the money (including the failed emergency status), they'll get endlessly tied up in courts forever because they're hateful, god-damned amateurs.

[JohnBrown1917]

And this is why you don't get taken seriously.

The Koch money is just too good these days.

[Ghostpanther]

Yes, generally when you're leaving out "the details" intentionally, it's to cover something up. Like the fact that "THE WALL" wasn't actually being built despite the dozens of times he's said it was.



None of which were his "THE WALL", making his statements objectively false.



It's a lie. An exaggeration would be, "We've repaired and improved so much wall you wouldn't believe!", because that's taking something actually happening and making it out to be more than it is.

It's a lie when you're saying something that's not happening, is happening.



Hey, I'm consistent. That was a bullshit lie then, it is now, and he shouldn't have said it. He was wrong to do so.

"But Obama" isn't a defense, that's a poor excuse.



Perception doesn't make reality. Facts make reality.

Well, he might be able to start building new additional walls anyway.....https://www.foxnews.com/politics/tru...sional-leaders

The deal announced Monday evening, which requires congressional approval, would increase spending caps by $320 billion relative to the limits prescribed in the 2011 Budget Control Act, whose spending-control provisions have been repeatedly waived since 2014. It also would suspend the debt ceiling and permit more government borrowing until July 31, 2021 -- after the next presidential election.

The compromise reportedly outraged Democrat Sen. Patrick J. Leahy, the ranking member of the Senate Appropriations Committee, who noted the bill would not block Trump from spending money on his proposed border wall.

"I'm worried the House is willing to give him far too much discretion to take money and move it anywhere he wants including a wall," Leahy, D-Vt., told The Washington Post. "So the way it is now I will not vote for it. . . . The other 99 can vote for it, I won’t."

Of course it has to pass the Senate.

[D Luniz]

I mean, there's not even anything in place to begin with.

Have they sorted land issues already?

What are the environmental impact studies?

The studies on the impact to trade?

How about testimony from border security experts and other experts on related issues?

What's the cost-benefit analysis of said wall?

This is not a serious proposal and these are not serious people. If they were serious, they'd have long-since already gone through the motions in preparation so that they could start accepting bids and granting contracts as soon as the money is approved.

As-is, no matter what they try to do to get the money (including the failed emergency status), they'll get endlessly tied up in courts forever because they're hateful, god-damned amateurs.

Land issues are in courts due to people (of course) fighting the imminent domain useage

they are trying to skip the EIS, WHICH, say it with me now, are in courts

I cant say on the trade studies, but IF they are being done, I doubt they are gonna be good.

- - - Updated - - -

While we're on the subject....


He genuinely doesn't seem to understand that this isn't "new" wall that never existed before. Is it brand new material they've put up? Probably. Has he literally only replaced what was already there? Yes.

well "MAINTAIN THE WALL!! MAINTAIN THE WALL" just wont sell the red hats

[Dontrike]

Or you could look at it as something which he sees it as part of it has been built. But leaves out the details. As some new walls have been built, but no additional walls. Just replacing/upgrading/repairing existing ones. Is it a lie or a exaggeration? Could easily be ether. But all politicians lie or exaggerate to some degree.

Look at Obama and his famous lie or exaggeration," If you like your doctor, you can keep them.If you like your insurance plan, you can keep it." Some defend him and say he was not lying, but just did not know the truth of what would happen. I think he knew. If you supported him, then maybe you convinced yourself he was not lying, but was not being accurate. Funny how things perceived, depends on what one's perception is.

Look at Trump and his we can do healthcare cheaper, better, and for more people. You are so bad at this.

[Breccia]

He genuinely doesn't seem to understand

Disagree.

It's 2019 and he's panicking. Trump campaigned and ran on the promise to LOCK HER UP!

I mean, SEND THEM BACK!

I mean, NO COLLUSION!

I mean, BUILD THE WALL! Yeah that's the one.

One Trump Shutdown and 75% of his tenure and...no Wall. Therefore, he's building it out of moved goalposts. Replacing Obama's barrier with his will maaaAAAAaaagically turn into the Wall he promised, and his rabid fanbase will pretend that's what they meant the whole time.

Now, whether or not he understands that most illegal immigration comes through legal ports of entry...eh, that's a different discussion. He didn't campaign and run on BUILD A BETTER SET OF SCREENING PROCEDURES!

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Well, he might be able to start building new additional walls anyway.....https://www.foxnews.com/politics/tru...sional-leaders

The deal announced Monday evening, which requires congressional approval, would increase spending caps by $320 billion relative to the limits prescribed in the 2011 Budget Control Act, whose spending-control provisions have been repeatedly waived since 2014. It also would suspend the debt ceiling and permit more government borrowing until July 31, 2021 -- after the next presidential election.

The compromise reportedly outraged Democrat Sen. Patrick J. Leahy, the ranking member of the Senate Appropriations Committee, who noted the bill would not block Trump from spending money on his proposed border wall.

"I'm worried the House is willing to give him far too much discretion to take money and move it anywhere he wants including a wall," Leahy, D-Vt., told The Washington Post. "So the way it is now I will not vote for it. . . . The other 99 can vote for it, I won’t."

Of course it has to pass the Senate.

Yes, he should take money that the country does not have to spend on a wall he promised Mexico would pay for.

[Togashii]

And this is why you don't get taken seriously.

And he apparently writes for the National Review, so for @Dacien, it’s Gods own words.

[DarkTZeratul]

He didn't campaign and run on BUILD A BETTER SET OF SCREENING PROCEDURES!

Technically he did. He then banned Muslim immigration so they could work on a better set of screening procedures, during which time they did fuck all and the ban expired.

[Felya]

Technically he did. He then banned Muslim immigration so they could work on a better set of screening procedures, during which time they did fuck all and the ban expired.

They didn’t do it to build better screening procedures, Trump did it, to figure out what the heck was going on.

[Fugus]

God, if the mods got rid of the back and forth between the bad faith posters, trolls, and those dumb enough to keep feeding them, this thread would be much more informative.

[Shalcker]

Saying previous presidents had plans to commit genocide aint going to help.

He is saying it in context "there are plans that i would never do", so i'm not seeing how you're taking it as mark against him (or previous presidents that didn't take them either).

Military analysts look at all options available and explore whole range of possibilities, most of which are never taken.

That's like being upset of someone saying there are plans for nuclear war between USA and Russia with potential of hundreds of millions dead - which definitely exist as well.

[VinylScratch]

Disagree.

It's 2019 and he's panicking. Trump campaigned and ran on the promise to LOCK HER UP!

I mean, SEND THEM BACK!

I mean, NO COLLUSION!

I mean, BUILD THE WALL! Yeah that's the one.

One Trump Shutdown and 75% of his tenure and...no Wall. Therefore, he's building it out of moved goalposts. Replacing Obama's barrier with his will maaaAAAAaaagically turn into the Wall he promised, and his rabid fanbase will pretend that's what they meant the whole time.

Now, whether or not he understands that most illegal immigration comes through legal ports of entry...eh, that's a different discussion. He didn't campaign and run on BUILD A BETTER SET OF SCREENING PROCEDURES!

Trump is far from in a position to panic. His approval using aggregates has consistently stayed between 41-45% with him rising and falling briefly at different points over the past two years. For example he rose this last weekend a few points briefly because the Democrats made a mockery of themselves trying to condemn his tweets. It got so bad that the chair straight up told Pelosi they were going against House Decorum and silenced her from speaking and he stormed off. They had to get another guy in who came to the exact same conclusion, then had to actually vote to restore her speaking privileges to which they got a vote that strictly boiled down to party lines which nobody is going to care about. If half the Republican Party condemned him it would be more worthwhile, but the Democrats voting along party lines to consider Trump a racist is something they've been screeching for about four years now. Democrats scream "Orange Man Bad", water is wet, sky is blue.

Couple that with the fact regardless of ideological stance on the issue, "The Squad" is actually not helping the Democrat Party in the slightest. They see things ideologically so to them, the natural followup for impeachment because they come from safe blue districts doesn't carry any risk. However for Democrats in the midwest, they tend to be in areas that can flip red in a moment. Most notably was McCaskill from Missouri in the midterms who always ran on being a moderate Democrat so she'd shy away publicly from the idea of gun control. Regardless of your opinions of O'Keefe or Project Veritas at large, those things they publicized about McCaskill were her own words, and her own campaign staff higher ups. She did not win reelection when it was made public (admittedly this was entirely politically motivated yes) when she was caught on camera saying "When we retake the majority and push gun control I will sign off onto it."

Now that he's managed to basically force the Democrats to circle the wagons and defend "The Squad" it's basically made them the current face of the Democrat Party and he's going to hit them with the same crap they hit him with. "Oh you refuse to condemn them? That means you agree with them!" So when Omar makes another "Some people did something" reference to 9-11, or AOC says something stupid like "Unemployment is only low because people work two jobs" (Not how unemployment is calculated by the way. It asks if you are employed. Working one job is the same as working 50.). Admittedly, AOC doesn't say destructive things, she just says stupid things and looks like a moron. The real issue for them is Omar who can't stop putting her foot in her mouth.

[Draco-Onis]

Trump is far from in a position to panic.

Going full racist to distract from Epstein and Mueller seems pretty panic and desperate to me, he could have hit the squad and got the job done without going full racist plenty of other presidents have. Trump needed something to change the conversation from Epstein, Mueller and the concentration camps.