Did blizz achieved the impossible.

[Elias01]

What makes you think that getting gear isnt fun? Ofc it is. Gear progress your charachter it is most fun to get. Ofc most people were always raiding for gear. Nobady will donit just for lulz so they can pet themselfs on back.

[M1r4g3]

Someone is trying to teach me and not showing any proofs? kek

How's the first wing in LFR with 390ilvl going? Have you done all the battle-pets for today reps? XD

Could give you some heroic eternal palace tips aswell, ashvane must be tough

[Eosia]

That's been the paradigm since mythic raiding was introduced.

Which has been the paradigm since Vanilla. Raids were "mythic" back in Vanilla and BC. Wrath introduced Heroic to us and WoD brought back the Vanilla/BC style of raiding known as Mythic.

[toffmcsoft]

The problem is retail as a game is focused way too much on Raids & Dungeons. The game has turned into "Instances of Warcraft". Players spend more time in groups of 5 or raids groups and just rinse & repeat the same content. Maybe next expansion blizzard can get back to the grass roots, ie classic, where it was about the journey.

It would be awesome if the next expansion required at minimum 10 days /played to hit max level and the progression post max level was a challenge.
Loot drops too frequently in retail and the catch up systems negate the whole purpose of pushing progression.

[xxcloud417xx]

I don't want to rabbithole into Rogue discussion - I think the argument was more about "not having to think before mashing buttons" than the actual buttons being mashed. Most of those CD's you mention are just simple "mash when off CD".

Is there actually any classes left where resource pooling is still a thing? I think most of them have been changed to exactly opposite.

Frost DK needs to pool Runic Power for Breath of Sindragosa. It’s not fun by any means, but it’s necessary for maximal output...

[FrostyK]

The disease of WoW nowadays. Players who are barely capable to step into Heroic walking around in near Mythic ilvl.

you missed the whole point of the post. H AEP is only up for two weeks. my guild one shot Normal on first week while. And I just entered H AEP and have down 5 boss on first day before people had to go to bed. Wtf is wrong with you? You saw one sentence that fit your narrative and you decide to shove it in. You're the disease WoW is facing.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

It will make me raid until the last boss dies on mythic. Probably a month or month and a half or so from now for my guild. Two at the most unless it has a mega wall like KJ. Then I and most people in my guild would usually unsub until the next patch because we see ZERO point in continuing the game because you will already have the gear, reps, and reggie bullshit that comes with a patch by then EASILY. But because of Classic we will stick around and do that instead until the next patch. That is where Blizzard pulled off the impossible. Stopped me from unsubbing during a pointless nothing time in the game because they have made everything in the game worth repeating a shit ton besides the raids and you wore all that out before the raid is done unless you are world first.

[Hittion]

The problem is retail as a game is focused way too much on Raids & Dungeons. The game has turned into "Instances of Warcraft". Players spend more time in groups of 5 or raids groups and just rinse & repeat the same content. Maybe next expansion blizzard can get back to the grass roots, ie classic, where it was about the journey.

It would be awesome if the next expansion required at minimum 10 days /played to hit max level and the progression post max level was a challenge.
Loot drops too frequently in retail and the catch up systems negate the whole purpose of pushing progression.

I'm not sure this is the case early wow relied on dungeons heavily as well.. it did however let people grow out of content. There wasn't this fear that people had to grind ap forever or they would leave rather they would go on to the next challenge.

Wow's never lose modes hinder this now a days though.

[CrawlFromThePit]

This could be only me... but hear this out

My ilvl is about 435 currently, I have yet to step foot into H AEP. I've gotten most of them from M+ and cache.

In terms of gears, there isn't really anything that I need from AEP except for specific trinkets/weapon.
There is no motivation in term of gears for me to play H AEP.... except.... to experience the content and the fights.

Right now, Im raiding because I want to. Not because it drop higher ilvl gears.

I wonder if the age old question have been answered "Would you raid if there is no reward?"

Maybe Blizz is slow shifting into this new paradigm where they want players to raid because they want to, not because of rewards.

Im' not sure but I am definitely in that camp

That's just one anecdotal evidence. There's many people who quit because the item progression is garbage, it counter balances your situation.

[Unholyground]

They should just have LFR and make Mythic the regular difficulty and people can suck it up and get better or just do LFR. Too many damn difficulties as it is and is one of the reasons I don't raid or run dungeons anymore with no concrete drops to try and get.

Blizz needs to also make dungeons that are dynamic and change day by day or hell even procedurally generate them.

[dmitriy138]

except as blizz thrmselves said, that doesent work.
it didnt work in vanilla and tbc, and even wotlk when they added more difficulties, and with cata they made lfr to see if they could finally make raidfing worth it, and it did.

ya lets listen to the company that destroyed it's own games and thinks it's smarter than the players when it comes to what makes a game great. The people that were smarter than the players left blizzard long ago.

[DustWolf]

Yeah like playing like a selfish dick,ignoring mechanics, getting good rng, not getting targeted by stuff?
Take for example grong, if the 2 bots dont spawn together every single time you wont ever get a good log no matter how good you are, meanwhile someone worse can if they do. I got something like rank 4 on it, how? Bots kept spawning together near the boss (so melee didnt have to move but the tanks did instead), and good rng with roll the bones, i was in control over nothing, my skill was irrelevant.
Oppulence? Oh you got liquid gold during adds? say goodbye to your log.
Conclave? Let me just ignore the raptors and tunnel the boss and pray i get good rng.
Rastakhan? Lemme just keep dpsing even tho we need to stop and wait for the 4th door to spawn
You get the point. Skill comes last.


Thanks for that, actually made me laugh xD

Yes, I understand your point, however, you still have an overall performance parse for each fight and you have a general parse for all the bosses. The point I want to make is: the better player will consistently play better, perform better, get a better parse, which will be reflected in his overall boss parse and overall raid parse. With time, extremes will cancel each other out, as per your example, the rank 4 you got would have eventually evened out with a bad RNG pull, providing you with a real estimation of your performance via the overall performance parse.

The better player will generally perform better and will thus have a better overall parse. So I still argue that skill does matter (you could even argue that the better player will know when to save a cooldown, plan movements ahead, all this saves valuable time and enhances your performance. These are elements outside of your core rotation which, arguably, prove that you have skill, not the fact that you can mindlessly repeat a 1-2-2-2-3 sequence of keys, because as stated before, I completely agree that the classes are way to hollow (compared to let's say MoP/WoD, where class design was pretty on spot for my taste)).

A prime example i always give people who say everyone should have similar parses if classes are so dumbed down:

Look at WoD, brackenspore, kilrogg, if you are doing the dmg buff mechanics you will parse ridiculously higher than the rest of people at same skill/gear levels who are not doing said mechanics; equally you will parse much higher by achieving better rng proc rates and NOT being targeted by certain boss mechanics or even having the ability to completely ignore fight mechanics (that don't give passive dmg buffs) to just dps.

YOUR dps is not fully being controlled by YOU, if we could put a number to skill levels and say a 10/10 player was in a raid with 7/10 players even though the 10/10 is playing absolute perfection he would still do less dps (often significantly) than a 7/10 player of the same class and gear who was in a raid with 10/10 players simply due to the time to kill times. The faster the boss dies, the higher your dps and parse will be.
The legendary ring is prime example of this, every single rank 1 parse in HFC was arcane ring cheese showing dps done during lust and 10+ arcane mages, your lust and cd stacking dps inflate your dps parses, the longer the fight takes to kill the lower this inflation is which is what gives such variations in peoples parses, you could have a bot play the exact same with the same gear every week and it's parses would still all be different because of the external factors from people in your raid dying, lack of procs, being targeted by boss mechanics more often etc etc.

Also lets not forget, when comparing parses no one will have the exact same gear, not will the rest of their respective raids, gonna be pretty likely a 415 class is going to do a lot more dps in a raid of 430+ players than a 415 player in a raid with everyone else 415 as well.

People need to understand that on the face of it parses are not the be all and end all of how someone performs in a raid, there are several external factors out of the players control that offer a rather significant difference, few years back it used to be pretty frustrating in recruitment when some people would constantly just shove logs in my face like "he parses high on all these fights so he should be decent" but you actually look into the logs and he's actually pretty terrible at the basics but just has good dps inflation on logs from high proc uptimes and shorter time to kills.

His example of pressing 2 buttons is pretty spot on for a lot of classes, maybe not quite 2 but some are 3, some are 4 but how many actually press more than 5 buttons regularly in their rotation?

I was never arguing that classes aren't dumbed down, I agree with that wholeheartedly, I do not agree with the comment that you cannot perform better or skilled at a class. Your core argument agrees with me on that matter; you are not fully in control of your DPS, however, a good player will be able to foresee RNG and adjust his CD usage/movement etc. To not repeat myself too much, the reply to the original poster is somewhat relevant to your comment too.

[Eazy]

Could give you some heroic eternal palace tips aswell, ashvane must be tough

Pretty sure harder than Sivara on LFR. xDD
And I'm also pretty sure you're playing easiest class in the game - mage, dh or warriors. 100%

It's no secret that I'm no longer mythic raider(it's easy to find my logs/raider.io etc.), unfortunately my real life collide with WoW. But I don't regret anything, I've achieved much more than I could ever before because of that. But that isn't my point.

I'm not a person who lies. This is what makes us different - I'm real, while you're still another internet troll that have nothing more to do than waste other people time with their trollery. How worthless is such a life is fortunately beyond me.

But yeah, I just want to have a proper discussion while I just found another sad player, who feels unfulfilled and has to spread false informations on purpose on the forum just to feel good about himself. Pretty pathetic if you ask me... But whatever, good riddance.

[ZazuuPriest]

This could be only me... but hear this out

My ilvl is about 435 currently, I have yet to step foot into H AEP. I've gotten most of them from M+ and cache.

In terms of gears, there isn't really anything that I need from AEP except for specific trinkets/weapon.
There is no motivation in term of gears for me to play H AEP.... except.... to experience the content and the fights.

Right now, Im raiding because I want to. Not because it drop higher ilvl gears.

I wonder if the age old question have been answered "Would you raid if there is no reward?"

Maybe Blizz is slow shifting into this new paradigm where they want players to raid because they want to, not because of rewards.

Im' not sure but I am definitely in that camp

Blizzard doesnt give a shit what you do so long as people still tune into MDI that will be the meta

[Donatello Trumpi]

Maybe Blizz is slow shifting into this new paradigm where they want players to raid because they want to, not because of rewards.

Im' not sure but I am definitely in that camp

The question is not "would you raid 2, 3, 5 times a raid without a reward." The question is "would you dedicate a weekly schedule, possible wipes, consumables etc to progress a raid for months without it dropping meaningful upgrades the moment you step in/after 2-3 weeks"

[ZazuuPriest]

Or they're shifting into paradigm where only Mythic raids matter and the rest is a huge mess

Mythic raiding will never matter because people dont watch that garbage on twitch. Mythic+ Dungeons are the only thing that matter to blizzard thats why we've had shit raids since Nighthold. Mythic raiding is just a pat on the back for the 600 neckbeards that can actually clear it while its current

[Qnubi]

How worthless is such a life is fortunately beyond me.

I agree with you, but this part I don't. No life is worth more/less, everyone can (should) decide to live how they want. I hope you re-consider that view at some point in your life. =)

[spleen1015]

Makes me laugh when people think the declining WoW population is majorly caused by raid difficulty.

It has nothing to do with the way they've handled flying.
It has nothing to do with the class pruning.
It has nothing to do with AP grinding.
It has nothing to do with the game being 15 years old.

[Heladys]

I like having options.

Absolutely. No reason to have your ability to gear to some remotely reasonable standard utterly ruined by the inevitable percentage of your small guild who emo-quit part through an expansion because they don't like some elf thing or other.

[crakerjack]

I wouldn't really care if the average player was better. There's such a huge skill gap between your generic xmog/achievement/mount hunter compared to your world first mythic raider. I know people who play the game and they suck ASS and they're perfectly content with it. They have no reason to raid outside of LFR and they never touch m+, so they can't justify a reason to get better. I WISH I could mythic raid on a casual level but my current realm is dead and the average player sucks. All it takes to be good at this game is to practice your class, make sure you keybind/mouse turn and read up on each fight. You'd think people wouldn't be selfish enough to enter challenging content ill prepared or fully knowing they can't even play their class properly.